Episode 2 The Nolan Show

Ladies and gentlemen, we have an announcement to make. Roll up, roll

up, so you can get two shows for the price of one. Watch the show tonight

and we will bus you down to Nolan Live and you can tell us what you

really think about it. All right? And you think I'm joking, we've got

the buses outside. Here are the tickets. If you see want to come to

the biggest show in the country after the play, the buses are ready

and I'll see you down there. Whose coming?

Welcome along. We have got a packed show for you tonight. Here's what's

coming up: The play they tried to ban. A comedy

about the Bible causes uproar. It only goes ahead tonight after a

council U-turn. Where Christians right to object?

Hands up who thinks 16-year-olds should be given the vote? Could

young people change our politics for the better? Or are they just not

mature enough to have a say? Do you remember this? The winner of

Britain's Got Talent is Paul Potts. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

He is here tonightment he's going to sing live. A big show tonight. Thank

you so much for change us here on BBC One. Right, let's get into the

first debate, shall we? The show did go on in Newtownabbey after all. The

Reduced Shakespeare Company has just performed its comedy about the

Bible. It almost didn't happen. There was a huge row. Massive media

attention and then a U-turn. What was this all about? Well, joining me

to discuss this, the Free Presbyterian Minister, the Reverend

David McIlveen and the Alliance councillor, Mr Blair. You just left

the play. What's your take? I made the remark coming out to the play,

that I didn't see anything that was particularly offensive. I didn't see

anything that was more offensive than anything I have seen in light

comedy shows in television such as Father Ted for the Vicar of Dibley

and most people there would agree with that.

Let me just show you different clips of this play. We will start off with

this, shall we? Let's have a look. Listen up, children of Israel. I've

got some good news and I've got some bad news. The good news is I got him

down to ten. LAUGHTER

The bad news is, adultery is still one of them. That's just a tiny

clip. Do you find that offensive? Very much so, indeed, Stephen. You

do? Because it is not the word of God. This presentation that's based

upon what the theatre company say is the word of God, it is not the

scriptures of truth and there is a serious application here because

many of us believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of

God and to refer to Moses in that sense, that's not what the Bible

teaches. The good news of the Bible is that Jesus Christ came into the

world to save sinners. David, you are allowed to find it offensive,

but are other people not allowed to find it acceptable? That's going to

be the fact that we face in society just as we present the gospel to

people, some will receive it and some will reject it. But that's not

what we should be discouraged about. It is our challenge to persuade

people and whenever I listen to that comment, supposedly coming Moses,

that adultery is a bad news story. That's one of God's Commandments

that is practicable and God honouring and it is for the benefit

of mankind. You are not persuading them, you are banning them from

having any right themselves to decide whether they are persuaded or

not? You the want them banned from watching it? Total censorship? It is

not censorship. It is stating to people there are standards and in

all aspects of life, there are standards. In the BBC here, there

are certain words that you cannot use or you would be banned from the

BBC. Go into the sporting world and there are certain activities that

bring the sporting world into disrepute. So people do have

standards and the Christian has standards as well and rejects what

this presentation is doing in regard to trivialising the message of the

Bible. The play did finish. We did mention that we would be busing

people down. We can see them getting on the bus. There they are in our

wonderful bus. He we brought them down. Nolan Cabs has maybe got a

future. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome straight from the play some

of our Nolan audience. Give them a round of applaus ladies and

gentlemen. APPLAUSE

So you guys have actually seen it unlike quite a few people who have

been discussing this across the country. Let me come to the front

row, and the man in the glasses. What did you think? It was a superb

play. It was great fun. Very entertaining. There is nothing in it

that I would find offensive. I respect that some Christians would

find aspects of it offensive, but for me there was nothing that was

offensive. It was entertaining. It was clear when the play was using

exerts from the Bible, it was very clear. Explain to this gentleman why

he should not have had the option of seeing it? That's not my point. I

think people have a right to go if they want to go, but I think it is

equally right for me to object to something that I feel strongly

about... Hold on. That's not accurate because you would support

the banning of that play? I would. You don't think he has the right to

go? There is a thin line there because I mean there are many things

that we should say, people shouldn't smoke in cars and yet they do. You

know, there are many things we feel about, but I think it is right for

me to say to anyone that as far as the Bible is concerned, it is a very

sacred book to many of God's people and if this was the Koran, there

would be an outcry. I can respect the fact that a Christian will say

that they feel offended by it and they wouldn't want to see it, but to

impose that view on other people is unacceptable. In terms of the Koran,

there are lots of Muslims that would have a tolerant view and would

say... To be fair to David. Well, let me ask you the question, do you

think you would get away with poking fun at the Koran in the UK?

Honestly? We have to go back to the starting point which was that there

was a clear attempt at political censorship at a play that was coming

to a local theatre in the area. Who by? In the area that I represent

from the DUP on Newtownabbey Council. The DUP would say they are

not on the artistic board, but you would say they put on a lot of

pressure? There are two groups of people. I want to say that I accept

the view that David McIlveen puts forward on behalf of his church and

his constituency, I accept it and I respect it. But I also have to

consider the views of the wider community who would appear to be the

majority of the community who want to exercise their freedom of choice

as to whether they see that play or not. How much pressure do you claim

the DUP put on? Huge pressure within the council or we wouldn't have had

this debate to start with. We did ask, by the way, guess what, we

asked the DUP to come on, guess what, no, they are not coming on,

but Newtownabbey councillor and politician, Billy Ball, he was one

of them demanding the play be banned. Sorry, you can't make it

tonight, it Billy Ball. It wasn't just the DUP that wanted it banned.

The Ulster Unionists councillor. We can quote Billy Ball, he said this

is supposed to be a Christian nation and we are allowing the Bible to be

mocked a slated. Our parliaments are sworn under it. Christians can be

slagged for their beliefs and I can take that, I don't mind that, but

when it comes to the Bible, that's different. That's different. Now,

that's what Councillor Ball says. He just isn't saying it here which is a

pity. What do you think? I think we live in Northern Ireland. We don't

live in China. We shouldn't be told what to go and see. I think it is an

abuse of power. I would like to see the figures as to how many

complaints were received and who received them and who made those

complaints. And the man in the glasses. What would you think? I

would put my point to David McIlveen. I attended Sunday school

when I was five years old and I still attend my church today which

was established long before your church. I have never heard a sermon

preached on how to be intolerant, or how to dictate or impose your views

on other people. So what gives you the right or any political party the

right to impose their views, religious views and beliefs on me or

anyone else just because you interpret the Bible differently from

me, we both read the same Bible? I appreciate your point. You have

every right to make it equally as I have every right to respond to it

and I appreciate you have gone to Sunday school, but central to the

Bible is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the saviour of

mankind and when I read recently about how many young people had no

desire to look forward to life, they lost hope in life, to me the message

of the Bible brings the answer to man's and women's individual needs.

Is that an answer to his question? Why doesn't he have a right to see

it? I haven't objected to it. Yous wanted it to be banned. I objected

to the content and I have a right to see I feel it should be banned and

equally people have a right to see it. If it is banned, you can't see

it. There are many things, of course, you might feel very strongly

about. I wouldn't want football on a Sunday, but it goes on. To be clear,

did you want the play banned? I would have preferred if it had of

been banned, yes. Absolutely. Hello. We live in a society which promotes

tolerance and equality for all faith groups. I just question how this

play promotes tolerance towards the Christian faith. Tell me what you

mean. Well, so quite a lot of Christians are offended and find the

play blasphemous. So how is that showing tolerance towards

Christians? So you think it should be banned too? Yes, I do believe it

should be banned. It is interesting for both you in the audience this

gentleman to engage with you? What I would say to the Reverend... This

lady here. She is a Christian, she thinks it should be banned. In

Northern Ireland Christianity created for division in our country

than anything else. That's a matter of opinion. Let's go up to

Newtownabbey live. We can speak to Austin who is one of the men behind

this play. Hello Austin. Hello, Stephen. Look at all the fuss you've

caused and you're smiling tonight. I'm so sorry. But thank you for

having me out here in this beautiful weather. It is a serious matter

though, isn't it, when Northern Ireland over the last week, people

are not just entitled to their Christian faith, but it is really a

serious matter if they feel the Bible is being mocked? Yes, it is.

It is a very serious matter and I respect everybody who thinks this is

inappropriate. I would ask them to respect my belief that it is quite

appropriate. So what bit of they don't want you to poke fun at the

Bible did you not get? Well, I get they don't want me to do it, but

what I don't understand, I'm part of the Christian tradition. I grew up

with the Bible. The Bible is my book as much as it is anybody's book. I

don't understand why their interpretation of the Bible

supersedes my interpretation of the Bible or indeed of the people who

wanted could come and see the show. Would you be comfortable creating a

play that poked fun at the Koran? I wouldn't because that's not my book.

I don't know anything about the Koran. It might be a very funny

book, but I don't know anything about it. I do know that there are

many Muslim comedians out there who poke fun at the Koran as is only

proper. They should be allowed to poke fun at the Koran. There

shouldn't be anything that you can't laugh at. I think comedy in theatre

is a wonderful way to explore issues of faith, to bring people together

of many different faiths. We had an audience of 400 people up there of

believers, non-believers, all lifting their voices in laughter and

celebration of the good book. I had a woman come up to me afterwards,

and say, " I came to see the show and I bought a ticket because it had

been banned and I was told it couldn't." She said I am not that

religious and the show makes me want to go back and read more of the

Bible. That wasn't our intention, we just want to have a good time with a

lot of different people, but that was a by product. You are the son of

a DUP councillor. That's right. That's as close as we are going to

get to a DUP councillor tonight. Don't you go on my dad or I will go

on your mum, Audrey. What gives people the right to ban this play?

What gives politicians the right to intervene morally in a situation? I

think it is the same right that David Cameron intervened and changed

the definition of marriage. It is the same right. It is a politician's

right. It is a democracy, but it seems when Christians do it, they

are bigots, they are back ward, but when the vote goes right,

commentators proclaim it as the victory for freedom. They are the

champion of liberty and for our friend here, a word of advice... You

can speak to him. Speak to him. Which one do I look into there? Just

a word of advice, if you are thinking of doing it on the Koran,

ring a guy called Salman Rushdie. The name of Jesus Christ in our

society and in media abroad, and even if you don't believe in Jesus

Christ his name is blasphemed day in and day out and Christians tolerate

it. Patrick is sitting alongside you. We

have come across a funny idea of tolerance and people's rights.

Everyone in this country has freedom to practise their religion. What you

do not have the right not to be offended. Now, everyone will find

something offensive at some point. Of in a way, that's how all comedy

works. Comedy is about failings and about tran transgressions. We draw a

line in the BBC about what is acceptable and what isn't. Every

broadcaster... The BBC is beamed into people's homes. Which is why

you will not... You did play some of this play. The difference is, this

is the theatre. People can choose to go to the theatre if they want to.

People can choose to have a gay marriage and people can choose not

to have a gay marriage. David Cameron can't change your definition

of marriage. Two points. Let them fund that and let them fund

themselves, it is a hard business. No, wait a minute, you said about

gay marriage, he used his power to vote, but if it would have been the

opposite, it would have been bigotry, but he is a democrat. He is

a politician, has he to leave his view outside the door like a

Christian is supposed to do leave his view? If you are not a

Christian, you can bring your Marxism, your atheism into

politician, you have the right, but a Christian has not the same right.

You are saying that Christians don't have a right to bring religion into

politics. I read the script. It was bigotry. You read the script to the

play? No. I read articles when there was a call for a ban. Stephen, it is

a difficult situation. A council which is linked with an Arts

Theatre. This is difficult. I'm here to say for equality for all

politicians and David Cameron and if David Cameron... If they believe in

the ban so much, why did they go into hiding after they tried to ban

it? Why have they gone to ground? And let everybody this programme

know. Let them know. Let everybody watching this programme know that

many journalists throughout this country have been on to those

politicians that tried to ban this play and they went to ground. Their

phones were off. They went into hiding. That's how much they

believed it should be banned. They went into hiding! I forgot, is it

not a democracy? Do they not have the freedom to say, "Stephen, I

don't want to talk to you." You make a mistake. It is not about talking

to me, not just to these people, but tens of thousands of people in this

country who were saying as they are entitled to do, "We don't want you

to see the play." We the don't want you to see the play. Mrausz

APPLAUSE That's what a democracy is by the

way. Frazer Agnew, Ulster Unionist Party, why didn't they stand up tall

and say it? Maybe because they are tired of the hate mail and they

don't want to take anymore tonight. As I say, answer my two questions.

If David Cameron as a politician can interfere, why is Jesus clis

blasphemed and you would be mad to make a documentary or something on

it because of that. Don't you sitting here all cocksure, it was

from your party, that the chair of the party was on the artistic board

and he chaired the board that cancelled the play? Stephen, that

can be dealt with easily and it has been dealt with previously. That

councillor, my colleague, councillor Billy Webb wrote a letter as you

know and we discussed it on the radio the other day on behalf of the

board, as chairman of the board, not as Billy Webb, but chairman and it

states that decision, that initial decision was taken with deep regret

and everyone knows and especially after the publicity of the last

number of days that decision was taken after tremendous public

pressure on that artistic board. Tremendous public pressure which was

reversed because the outcry of public opinion that demanded freedom

of choice allowed that board to sit down and look at that again. There

are two bands of people who have been forgotten in this argument

really, but one of the audience did mention it tonight. First of all,

and I have spoken to many of them in the last few days, there are

Christian people out there in the community who feel they are being

accused of being less Christian because they don't share the views

of a smaller number of people and that's not a good situation to be

in. There is another band of people who are the customers of that

theatre and the rate payers of Newtownabbey who have a right to

choose for themselves whether or not they go to the theatre. OK. Listen

if you want to pick up the phone at home tonight, the numbers will come

up across your screen: The calls will cost five pence a

minute and additional cost may apply. The hashtag we're using

tonight BBC Nolan. That's the wrong text. Here it is on the screen now.

Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Up there in

the grey jumper. Stephen, could I ask the gentleman who gave his views

in the front row and John Blair there, any of the two of them Born

Again Christians? No, I don't consider myself. Why do you ask? To

me that's the reason whyment there lies your answer to why neither the

two of them are insulted by the play because they are not Born Again

Christians. You came down on our bus tonight after the play? Yes, I would

consider myself Born Again. I attend a non subscribing Presbyterian

church. What we are doing is swearing on the Bible, the Bible

tells us not to swear by anything on earth or in heaven. OK. Thank you. I

just want to give you time to tell me why you would object to this. You

are a Christian and why would you object to this? I haven't seen the

play. I have just read about it and listened to the views tonight. The

Bible does tell you about jokes and stuff and that's the only cliff that

I have seen of it that was on at the top of the show. So if it is all

like that I would rather that it didn't, you know, that it wasn't

played or that the actual play itself wasn't in circulation, I

suppose. It is not twisting the scripture, but it is sort of taking

the mick out of it Let's have another look. The Last Supper. You

are probably wondering why I asked you here. What's going on? Why are

we sitting on the same side of the table, that's what I want to know?

Do you love me John? Do you love me Thomas? I I doubt it. I have it on

good authority that one of you will betray me? No. Do you apologise to

those people in Northern Ireland who you have offended because you know

you have offended some? I apologise because that was never our intention

to offend anybody. But sometimes people get offended and I can't

control that. We set out to write an entertaining celebration of the

Bible and to the man who thought it was concerted it maybe like that. It

is not like that joke and if you had come to see it, you would know that

are. David McIlveen is there a learning from this in terms of there

were no protesters there and when the objections came in about the

play, his ticket sales rocketed? I think there are lessons. I mean if

people can be inspired to read the Bible and I make the point to Austin

that what he is presenting is not the Bible as I understand it. It is

a dismantling of the be Bible's message for the sake of some

theatrical performance to draw the interest of the people. It is not

the word of God. The word of God is pure. The scene about the Lord's

table, I find that totally offence I have sive... We never said it was

the Lord's... Well, it is. It is the Last Supper and the Lord Jesus

Christ was about to go to the cross to die for sinners. Let him reply

because he is on a satellite. I was just going to say we don't claim it

to be the true word of God. We say right there in the title, it is the

complete word of God abridged presented by The Reduced Shakespeare

Company. It is clear in the title that it is not the true word of God.

I will go home tonight and talk to you on Twitter about the subjects we

deal with on the programme. Ladies and gentlemen, please give our

guests a round of applause. Thank you very much.

APPLAUSE Here is what's still top come on the

programme: There are calls to reduce the voting

age to 16. Are they mature enough? Do they know enough? Earlier this

month, are TV wannabees turned up at Belfast's Waterfront Hall to

audition for the next series of Britain's Got Talent. In 2007, my

next guest became the first ever winner of that TV show. Let's remind

ourselves of his first appearance in front of the judges.

Paul, what are you here for today, Paul? To sing opera.

OK. Ready, when you are. APPLAUSE

I think that we've got a case of a little lump of coal here that's

going to turn into a diamond. You are through to the next round.

I had goose pimples. Ladies and gentlemen, a Northern Ireland

welcome for Paul Potts. APPLAUSE

You know what, I don't think I'm known for being too sycophantic to

guests, but when I hear you sing, I think you are amazing and I mean

that, and we are going to have the pleasure of hearing you sing

tonight. What is more extraordinary is the journey you have had through

life, Paul, before you became a worldwide singer and when you were

in school, you were bullied so much that yous didn't have any confidence

about yourself. What happened? Bless you!

LAUGHTER Well, basically, I mean I, it all

started really when I was about seven and I had extensive and quite

systematic bullying from the age of seven until I left school at 19. So

I had 12 years of really quite, it started with name calling and then

people would start throwing things at me and then they would try and

throw me through windows and it just kind of left me in the position

where I just felt like I was nothing because when somebody tells you

something again and again and again, sooner or later you will start to

believe them. That's a very profound thing to say, you felt like nothing.

What do you mean? Well, there were instances where a

lot of the kids at school would pretend that I was dead and shout

out Paul Potts is dead and everybody would cheer and they would make sure

that I was within earshot when it was happening and the old trick of,

you know, inviting everybody to 18th birthday parties and they would make

sure they would invite everybody around me and tell me to my face,

"Oh, we are not inviting you." They would shout and cheer. How old were

you? It was through secondary school from 12 to 18 it would happen quite

regularly. And what happens to you when that's done to you? You kind

of, it makes you feel completely worthless because as a person you

always look for acceptance and for and you judge yourself as a person

on the basis of your interactions with other people and if your

interactions with other people are 100% negative then your response

about yourself will be negative. And when that's happening to you,

obviously there is no excuse for what they are doing, it is

unbelievable, but do you try to think in your head why are they

doing it to me? Do you do that? Like, why are they targeting you? I

am quite a philosophical person and I ask myself that constantly and you

try and find a reason and my biggest problem was always that I couldn't

find a reason, but I wanted to find a reason, but I constantly get that

vicious circle of never being able to find out why and you end up

grabbing any reason and the reason you assume it is because you are

worthless. Because you are nothing. Because there is nothing good about

you, you know, you know, I turned around to them and asked them why

they hated me so much? And they said, "Well, we hate you, because

you are you." When you have got enough people telling you that, you

do take it to heart. Where were your teachers in all this? Well, I

started at the start I did start to try and tell the teachers, but the

trouble is that can be counter productive because what happens,

there was an incident at school where one of the kids tried and

throwed me through a -- tried to throw me through a window. I managed

to pull away and I caught the corner of my head on the open window and I

have a scar on the back of my head and the bully stood over me like a

concerned bystander just to make sure that I didn't tell on him and I

learned quite quickly that being a tell tale got you nowhere, all it

got you was more beatings. Do you think that still has scarred you? I

think that and this is one of the reasons I think that abuse at school

and a lot of people give bullies different names, but it is abuse at

the end of the day and when you get systematic bullying and abuse at

school, it leaves you open to other forms of abuse and it means that you

don't then oppose what you should because you feel that worthless that

you think anybody has got the right to do whatever they want to do. What

you are getting to, when you were between 15 and 17, you were sexually

abused? Yeah. I just didn't speak out about it. I didn't speak to my

parents about it. I only told my parents about six months ago and

it's, you don't want to tell people that you are close to because it is

a bit of a variation of the old saying, "Better to keep your mouth

shut and for people to think you are a foul." The people that I care

about most know that I'm worthless and that's not right, but that's how

things work in your head and it's and this is kind of where you get,

if you get repeated bullying, you end up accepting things and ifds I

have seen what happened over the last year or so with the number of

suicides amongst young people and a lot of online bullying and that's

the reason why I don't use the word, "Troll." They are not trolls. They

don't have a trendy name. They are just bullies. And I think there is

more than one way of dealing with them. I think, I hear people saying

quite often that, you know, we need a zero tolerance policy towards

bullies. To me that's completely meaningless. If you had your time

again, would you cry out for help? If things happen the way they did, I

am the same person so I would probably react in the same way. I

guess there would be a few young people watching this tonight, they

might bullied in school, if you are being bullied or being sexually

abused, please, please ask for help. Please do that and it is very

important that you do so. I hate hearing any individual say they are

worthless, I do. It is a very sad thing, isn't it, when whoever it is

that is around you in society, some of your teachers, for goodness sake,

I wish they had kicked in there for you. Did you find during that stage,

during that trauma that music was a comfort? It was the one space that I

had that I belonged in and any other school group or situation, I didn't

really fit in or really belong. It was the one space where I had

something where I seemed to be accepted and I tended to be

reasonably good at it and it gave me confidence, but I never had that

final bit of confidence to really go for it in anyway. It wasn't

something that I ever saw as being a career. But you felt at ease when

you were singing? Yes and it always felt like that. It has always been

like a key opening a door and I always felt like it is a space where

I belonged, but it was just mine. It wasn't anybody else's and making any

kind of decision to share that part of my life would kind of leave me

open to criticism and you know, often criticism is helpful, but when

you are used to people being abusive then you are a bit scared of

criticism because you don't necessarily know how to interpret

what's personal and what's not and it is very difficult to tell the

difference. So you have got that background, right? And we know you

from Britain's Got Talent. But actually you were working in car

phone warehouse. What makes you apply with a lack of self esteem to

one of the biggest TV shows in the UK? I was working online. I was

doing my figures as a manager I had to do a weekly e-mail to my area

manager and send him my figures and my action plan and how I was going

to improve it. I was taking a break from that and I had a pop up window

and there was Simon Cowell's face and I tried to close it and it just

wouldn't close! LAUGHTER

It is like him on the TV, you try and turn him over to another channel

and he is still there! I ended up maximising it and I thought well, I

will fill it in. I got to the bottom and caught my reflection in my

laptop and I thought well, why would you ever press submit? Why would you

enter? You do the wrong kind of music, you are too old, you are too

fat, and you have got a great face for radio, why would they pick you?

Because it ended up... I flipped a coin. That's how I decided in the

end. You flipped a coin? I flipped a coin. And that flip of a coin led to

this. The winner of Britain's Got Talent is Paul Potts.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Did you feel worth something there?

I felt bemused. I wondered what the hell was happening? I almost broke

down when I was speaking to Ant and Dec afterwards. Those are really

special moments when you have something happen in your life like

that when you don't expect anything and this is why I always advice

people when you do shows like Britain's Got Talent, don't have any

second guesses as to what is going to happen because you spoil the

surprise. We can see you and Simon Cowell together. There you are and

of course, I know you are coming to the Waterfront in November here in

Belfast, but you have been singing around the world. How many album

sales do you now have? I believe it is around four to five million and I

have done more than 500 shows in the last six years. It is not bad from a

man Pavarotti said didn't have the talent to make it? Well, he didn't

really say that. In the film he did. Oh the film, because they are making

a film of your life, right? The film. I know in evidence made it.

Let's -- I know they have made it, let's have a look at it. As long as

I can remember, I wanted to sing. But it turned out that not everybody

loved the sound of my voice as my mum did and I got teased and

bullied. There was a scene of violence, it was kind of like an

opera, the opera of my life. You think the last 66 seconds of this

interview, winning Britain's Got Talent, Simon Cowell, millions of

album sales, making a film about you. I'm jealous. What is it? Can

you believe it? I never do quite believe it, but I

mean, I think in some ways, what I went through as a child that helped

me deal with success because when I was in my teens, I just got through

one day to the next. In I made it to the next, I looked on that as an

achievement. Now, what I do is I just live each day, a day at a time.

I never ever try and look too far beyond and I think that's probably

one of the most important things that anybody that does anything like

that should do because otherwise you start believing the hype and then

you don't know who the hell you are and your own identity is something

that you should never allow anybody to take away from you. Can I say to

people watching this at home, no matter what age you are, whether you

are a youngster about to go out and make it in life or whether you have

been told many times by anybody, if you have been told you are nothing,

just watch this man sing. Just listen to the talent this man who

was told he was nothing has and how he got there in the end. Paul, thank

you so, so much for coming here. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I

think your story is inspirational, I really do. It would be our pleasure

if you would walk to the stage, sir. All right, Paul Potts, ladies and

gentlemen. APPLAUSE

# Nessun dorma! Nessun dorma! # Tu pure, o Principessa, nella tua

fredda stanza guardi le stelle che tremano d'amore e di speranza!

# Ma il mio mistero e chiuso in me, il nome mio nessun sapra.

# No, no, sulla tua bocca lo diro, quando la luce splendera!

# Ed il mio bacio sciogliera il silenzio che ti fa mia!

# Il nome suo nessun sapra E noi dovrem, ahime, morir, morir.

# Dilegua, o notte! # Tramontate, stelle!

# All'alba vincero! # Vincero! Vincero! #

Wow. Wow. Thank you, Paul. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Right, we're going to move on. They are legal allowed to have sex, get

married, join the Army and even drive a tractor, but 16 and

17-year-olds can't vote in this country. That might change, Labour

said lowering the voting age will be one of the first things they do if

they get back in power. What do you think? Is that a good idea? The

former MP, Jerry Hayes is with us tonight and Basil McCrea. Why not?

Because it is a mad idea. It is basically, I had 30 seconds with

Basil and he is a reasonable person which in Northern Ireland is a rare

having seen the first debate, but there we go. These are politicians

who are patronising young people and looking for their vote. There is 1.5

million people who are 16 years old. What knowledge of life have they

got? The next thing is they get the vote they are entitled to stand for

Parliament and then they are entitled to sit on juries, would you

want a 16-year-old on the jury determining whether you went to

prison or not? It is insane. APPLAUSE

Well, if it is maturity that you are after, I wonder how you are going to

measure it because if you look at Northern Ireland politics, I am not

sure that the word mature is what I would use to describe it! What I

really this I is that young people have the right to have a job, the

right to pay tax, therefore, they have the right to decide how that

money is spent. What I really want to see is for the older generation

of politicians to move on out of this place. Including you? If

necessary. I'm not wedded to the place. I want to see young people

get involved and I want to see democracy work and I believe young

people have a huge stake. You want their vote! I would like everybody's

vote. Do you not want the vote of young people? I wasn't mad enough to

say that 16-year-olds should have the vote. Are you able to tell me

that every single person that voted for you was mature? That you

accepted only votes from people that you decided were mature? Well, of

course not. Of course not. There are 60 -year-old people who shouldn't

have the vote. Its as simple as that. But you have got to draw the

line somewhere. Why did you lose your seat? Because I was a Tory. I

was a Conservative in 1997, I was culled like a baby seal! I don't

care why he lost his vote. I guess a young man like this, how old are

you? I'm 18. You are 18. So you can vote? Yeah. Do you think you should

have been able to vote a couple of years ago? If I was 16 years old and

old enough to join the Army and go into war and risk my life, I think I

should have the ability to vote. But you couldn't join the Army without

your parent's consent, no and you couldn't fight for your country

until you were 18. You couldn't have sex at 16 with anyone you wanted

because there is laws against that. It is a nonsense to suggest because

you can join the Army, but your mum and dad have to approve it. To get

ma aried at 16 -- married at 16, your mum and dad have to approve it.

Who is being patronising, Jerry? Me. A young lady at the back. Go ahead.

Can I just point out the fact that you said that the Government has

been patronising is the most patronising thing I heard. Why would

I have any interest in politics if there is people like you? It is

about getting young people involved when they are young. I ray greed

with that -- I agree with that 100%. Of Do you not think that people

should get involved by getting the vote? The majority of 16-year-olds

don't want the vote at all. The comparison is interesting. If you

look at the last elections 51% of 18 to 25-year-olds were voting against

and a normal average of 65%. So young people right across-the-board,

they are not engaging in politics. Now, that either means they don't

care and it is their fault and they are being bored stupid by the

politicians or the other politicians aren't reaching out to them. Let's

talk about Northern Ireland. Do you feel excited by Northern Irish

politics? Me. Yes. Not at all. Why not? It affects your life. It

affects your future. It affects what type of job that you have. The

education, when you get sick. When I hear young people tell me they don't

care about politics, why not? I'm going to study politics next year.

It is more the fact from a young age I wasn't encouraged by anyone. I was

encouraged my my teacher who was a really inspirational teacher and I

took an interest. I am not interested because politicians don't

take an interest in young people in this country. Go on, Basil? There is

an issue about why you get... You are sitting there as if you are not

a politician, you are one of them? Yeah, I know. I think I could only

do worse by Stephen Nolan. There is a serious point, if you want people

to get involved in politics, you have to explain to them what the

decision making process is like and how you go about it. One of the

issues for many young people, if there isn't an election when they

are 18, they end up going to college or university and go away and when a

general election is called, they don't vote. I pt want to see -- I

want to see people from the age of 16, encouraged and explained about

what their options are. They are mature enough to make decisions. We

can't get 18-year-olds to engage. We are not doing it properly at school.

There is a real issue here. Young people have a huge stake in the

future. Many of our decisions that we make and I would say about youth

unemployment. You will get more attention to this issue if you have

votes. There is no bigger disappointment for me than when I

see our young people that have to leave here to go and get a job. The

person with his hand up? As a young person I was engaged with politics.

I was part of a group that was part of the committee. Basil was in the

middle of a leadership race at the time which he did not win. He used

this initiative to get support for the DUP to say that he was answer

gaeged engaged with young people. There was an issue that came up on

that committee. He through a civil servant out of the room... Is this

about what we are talking about? It is, indeed. Let's focus on whether

16 and 17-year-olds... I was a 17-year-old. Basil is sitting here

talking about trying to get young people involved in politics. I was

affronted by a politician that night. OK. Thank you for your point.

Basil, do you want to reply? Only to say that I think that it is

important that young people get involved and when there are

difficulties you try and assist and move forward and it is all part of

the learning process. Let's go to this young man here, white shirt? I

would agree by Basil's comments, there is not enough being done in

schools. The reason for me not voting is because I didn't

understand what parties had to offer because it wasn't offered to me in

school and I would challenge anybody in the audience that said they would

vote if they had the vote at 16. I find that really interesting. You

didn't understand what parties had to offer. Tell me what you mean by

that? What politics was about. Now that I've grown a little more, I

have gathered more of an understanding. Stephen, this is a

problem. That's the failure of society, are of the media. When he

with use the word, "Politics." I believe strongly, what poll fix is

what -- politics is what is going to affect your life. What decisions are

being made in this country that are going to affect your life? That's

politics. I would like to challenge anybody that said they would take

their vote at 16. Would that be your vote or your parents vote? Would you

have an understanding of politics? Do you think 16-year-olds show

independence in the house? Do you think 16-year-olds do what their

parents tell them to do? Do you think it changes when they get to

24, 34 or 44? Many people follow what their parents used to vote. I

want to encourage people to have an inquiring mind, to be informed, and

when they do that, they should be allowed to express it in a

democratic way. I want to bring in Beth McDaid. I am a member of the

Youth Parliament for south Belfast. You are saying the majority of young

people don't care about politics and don't want to get involved. What

would you say to the 700 plus young auto people in Northern Ireland who

voted forhe members of Youth Parliament? It

voted forhe members of Youth died for the right to vote in this

don't care how you vote, but you should vote. The problem is not just

young people... But, you are telling them they are not mature enough? The

majority of 16-year-olds are not mature enough. Let's get back to the

real, real issue. There is a problem, there is a democratic

deficit in this country and probably throughout the whole of Europe and

the western world. People are disillusioned with politics and

disillusioned with politicians, they don't trust them. How do we get them

all engaged? It is all right for B asil... How do you expect us to be

engaged if what we engage doesn't mean anything? Do you think it is

right that a 16-year-old should be elected or should stand for

Parliament without any experience of life? Do you think it is right that

a 16-year-old should sit on a jury? We have one minute. How can you give

a 16-year-old a vote when people my age and a lot older don't vote

because what do politicians do for us? A lot of them don't do anything

for us. If you don't vote, you will get the mad extremists in. People

died for that right. I am not sure you should be allowed to participate

in this debate because you don't vote. If you don't vote, you have no

say. Why would you give 16-year-olds the right to vote. Their parents

still have hold over them. I am pushing 19 and my mummy and daddy

have a push over me. You don't rebel against your mum and dad? I would

still respect my mother and father. It is not about respect. You can

disagree with them? You are going to give them the same opportunities as

their mother and father. What happens when you get into Parliament

or you get into a council, you do as the whips tell you. He just said

that he is in control of his parents. Should he not be allowed to

vote at 19? We are going to have to continue this on the radio in the

morning. Will you come on the radio in the morning? I will be at school

then. 9am tomorrow morning. Thank you for your company. Night-night.