Episode 4 The Nolan Show

Welcome along. Five deaths in the Royal Victoria Hospital. Any waiting

time is a potential factor. We speak tonight to one of the families. The

DUP say benefit payments could be switched off in 2016. Spin or could

that really happen? Journalist and broadcaster, Sally

Magnusson, on losing her mum to dementia.

And the Belfast mother who wowed the judges on The Voice. Jai McConnell

will be singing live tonight. Hello there.

Thanks a lot for joining me tonight. We're starting with a really

important story. Five people died at the Royal Victoria Hospital's

emergency department. Waiting times were a potential contributing factor

in each of their deaths. In a development tonight, we have been

contacted by the family of one of those five people. For the first

time we can now hear from the daughter of a patient who died.

My mum was 80. But she was a very active, very caring, loving mother

of eight children. A grandmother of 19. She was someone who enjoyed life

to the full and was a very independent lady. She drove her own

car and enjoyed going on holidays with her children. She had a good

network of friends and outlets our local community of Cookstown. She

was always somebody out and about and always there for her family. The

impression given by the trust, Colette, was that the people who

died were infirm, seriously ill. Was your mother? No. No. And in fact,

earlier, you know, in the days prior to that, my mum had been down with

myself and you know, her grandchildren for Hallowe'en. Two

months prior to that, she was with myself and my sister in Wicklow for

a holiday. No, she was very active, a very fit woman, a very capable

woman of very sound mind. What happened to her? She had fallen and

had sustained a head injury, yes. And she is in the hospital. She is

where she should be. She is in A and they are supposed to assess how

ill everyone is when they walk in the door? Yes. So when they assessed

her, did they assess her rightly or wrongly?

They, she was triaged, but she was triaged incorrectly and you know,

you know, I have documented this and sent it to you, Stephen, you know,

in an e-mail about what happened and I don't really want to go into it

again. You know, my family have been devastated by the death of my mum

and you know, I appreciate that, you know, death comes to us all and

there is no good time, you know, to lose your mum, but so many issues in

relation to mum's care and treatment, you know, that has left

us feeling somewhat, you know, untrusting or at the very least

cautious in relation to the National Health Service. Give me a sense of

what the hospital was like that night, the A department. How busy

was it? It was very busy. It was very busy. If you were to look

around you, what did you see? It was, well, it was very busy and in

my job I would be in and out of A on occasions so I know that is what

A would be like. But you know, my mum had been left, you know, sitting

for, you know, hours in A She had been triaged, but that has been done

incorrectly. She was left for sometime and you know, we feel that

because she had been left for so long that, you know, that that may

have contributed to her death. What affect has this had on your family?

You know, my family are completely, you know, devastated you know, by

the death of my mum and you know, you know, we do understand that

death does come to everybody and you know, there is, you know, no easy

way to lose your mum, but it has left us feeling somewhat cautious or

maybe untrusting in relation to National Health Service. I am very

aware this has been a news story over the last couple of days, but

you are sitting in your home and it is not a news story, it is your mum?

Why Yes. Yes. Yes. Has your mum been let down by the system? Yes. We

think that my mum, well we know she deserved a lot better and she didn't

get the care that she deserved. But we would stress that our experience

of A on that occasion was not reflective of my mum's treatment and

care when she went to the neurosurgery ward in the Royal. Her

care there was outstanding. Can I just ask you one final question? You

are in the position where the trust did inform you that there was a

serious adverse incident which contributed to your mother's death?

Yes. There were three families who were not told. Yes. Can you even

remotely put yourself in that position of they are going to find

out very soon or they have found out within the last couple of days for

the first time that this was kept from them? No. I can only just

imagine how they feel because I know when we were going through it and

when we were meeting with the Royal, it was heartbreaking and

devastating. OK. I really appreciate you talking to me. And thank you for

trusting us with your story. OK. Thank you. Thank you, Colette.

Well, there have been seriously a mixed messages from the health

chiefs as to whether the families were told. Here is what Belfast

Health Trust Chief Executive, Colm Donaghy, told Spotlight in an

interview recorded on Monday. Have you informed the families who

are involved here that waiting times played a part in these incidents? I

am not aware of the detail of both, but I know one of the families, it

was the subject of analysis and the family has been involved. The other

family, I'm not sure, but it would be a part of our policy now that we

would inform families of the reasons. You would expect that a

family would want to know? Absolutely. If the system played

some kind of part in their loved one's death? Yes. Will you be

looking into informing the other family? If they haven't been

informed, of course, yes. Well, what we can tell you is that

three families were not informed. We know that. Your hospital knew. Your

hospital collated the information. Your hospital wrote it in the forms

and your hospital did not tell the families, the loved ones of the

people that were under your care. Some of the families were told. Some

were not. I wonder if you find that acceptable? We did ask for a

representative from the Belfast Trust, from the Royal Victoria

Hospital to come into the stewed yo he tonight, there is packed audience

here, people need to trust your hospital and the interview was

pulled just a few hours ago. Very interesting indeed. Let's speak to

Declan Lawn who was the reporter on the Spotlight programme. Tell me

about today's developments, Declan? Today's developments, Stephen, are

very significant. I was contacted this afternoon by several members of

this family, Colette, one of them and they believed one of the cases

we had evidence for was their mum. This is the evidence I have shown

Colm Donaghy and to the health board and the reason I think this is

significant is because it puts a real human prospective on what up

until now has been a statistic. The family revealed details to me today.

Some of which we knew. Some of which we didn't. I spoke to three sisters,

all of them gave us statements. Now, at this point we don't want to name

their mother because of privacy, but we know her name, but we can tell

you some things about her. She was 80 years old and she was in

relatively good health for her age. She was fit and active. Now, that's

important, because Tony Stevens suggested that some, maybe the

majority of these people were infirm, had seriously complex

illnesses, may not have lived anyway. That wasn't the case with

this lady. She liked driving around the country to see her eight

children and her many grandchildren. She was out and about. So when she

fell and hurt her head, she went into the emergency department and

something went seriously wrong. The family are also distressed I should

point out about how this is being treated by the truth and -- trust

and the board and the minister and the public statements coming out.

Let me read you a couple of extracts. "Today, I have listened to

Mr Poots who said the deaths aren't a crisis. But for my faumly, this is

very much a crisis and for us to think this may have been preventible

is heart-rendering." One more. "OK, on the scale of things, this is a

small number. We know they were someone's relatives and an important

person in my life who I miss terribly." Let's see if we know

Declan anymore today about what happened to this lady and put it

into the public domain? We can reveal some word about what happened

to her. She was assessed at the triage stage and she was assessed

wrongly because they missed the fact she was on a blood thinning drug

called warfarin. But what is important here and what tells us

something about the system is there were later delays that seemed to be

because the department was busy. There was a big gap between when one

doctor ordered a scan and the scan was actually done. There was a gap

when they decided they had to put a reversal drug in to stop the

bleeding. It took 45 minutes for that drug to be found and

administered to her. All three sisters told me that when two of

them were there and they said the ward was very busy. Noticeably busy,

it felt under pressure. It is not just clinical errors here. Some of

the delays appear to have been caused because the ward was under

pressure. And the trust says there is a combination of factors, yes,

but the crucial thing is that some of these delays happened because the

ward was under too much pressure it would appear. The system had a part

to play here. Now, there is one other thing that I would like to

point out. I can't say exactly when this death happened, but I do know

the exact date, but I can tell you it was late last year. The family

say they have been told that a similar death occurred a few days

previously. Now, late last year is important because by last summer the

College of Emergency Medicine declared the department

unsustainable. Our Health Minister, by the way who also isn't in the

studio tonight, that's the DUP Health Minister, he denies there is

a crisis. Here is what he told the Assembly Health Committee? I accept

that the treatment and care those five people have may well have

fallen short and therefore, we will have an appropriate investigation of

that matter. Five people dying in hospital of 80,000 being treated is

not a crisis. Right, well, I will tell you what

minister, if you are not here, I will ask you the questions. You have

got the Chief Executive of the Belfast Trust, Colm Donaghy, telling

Spotlight that he thought there were about four of these incidents and he

said over a couple of years. No, five over a year. Now, we establish

that and you didn't know that. What on earth does that say about the

Royal Victoria Hospital? You don't know how many people were dying in

those circumstances and you thought it was four over two years? And it

is five over one. And then you don't bother to tell three of the

families. You collate it. You report it. And if someone is going to pull

an interview on this show around about 5pm tonight so the public know

what the Belfast Trust did, the Director of Medical Services, Tony

Stevens, was supposed to be sitting here reassuring people about the

Royal Victoria Hospital, if you are going to pull that interview,

whoever pulled it five hours before this programme goes on air, I'm

continuing to ask the questions. Here is the question, we know you

didn't tell three families last year, what about the year before and

what about the year before that and we will be putting those questions

in to your hospital because this is now an issue of public confidence.

If you don't want to front up here, I will continue to ask those

questions. We will go into this audience. There is a lady here in

the blond hair. Go ahead. My son was born with a rare liver disease and

he was treated initially at the Royal Victoria Hospital, I have got

to say they saved his life, you know, without them, he wouldn't be

here, but after the operation we were, it was like a revolving door

up at the A for us. We were told things to watch out for, life

threatening bleeds that he can just bleed out like that and they still

left us sitting there for two and three hours, sometimes four and five

hours. When you had presented at the A? When we presented... We had

been triaged and sent back out and told to take his clothes off, give

him Calpol, he can't take Calpol, he has a liver disease. So we were

still sat there sometimes two, three, four hours later. Well, let's

speak to the chair of the Committee for Sinn Fein. What's your reaction

to this, Maeve? I think it is quite shocking. I think people like

Colette and her family are very brave obviously going through their

own grief, but a sense of being in a very kind of public discussion

around this. They are extremely brave. What is particularly shocking

as well has been, you know, this evolving information. The fact we

are told initially that this may only be two people and now, it is

five deaths that are allegedly attributed to delays. Well, delays

were contributing factor and in the deaths, there may very well have

been other factors? You are right. We heard from Colette about her

mother's capability and well-being and being fit and active, but what

is of real concern is the fact we have a number of families who

haven't been informed that there may have been a serious adverse

incidents that affected the death of their loved one. This morning, the

Belfast Trust in a statement told the Nolan Radio Show that the

families are being contacted. Now, have they been contacted up to now?

How does that hospital not contact the families first? They tell the

management team and not the son, the daughter, the mum, the dad of the

person that is affected? Well, absolutely and all of that, all of

that points us in the direction of a crisis in our emergency care. And I

would suggest further than emergency care, I think we need to be looking

at the whole system here. The system has certainly failed Colette and has

failed those other families and we heard a doctor this evening being

very clear on the fact that what he spent most of his time doing when he

was in post here, was managing a crisis situation as opposed to

managing patients. This is something that's not new. Let's just hear from

that doctor. I think we can hear what he actually said. On many a

night shift, or weekend shift that I worked in that department I did not

give a standard of care that I felt was appropriate to patients because

our sole focus was just managing the chaos. The cases that are being

referred to, I think must only represent the tip of the iceberg.

Let me just come up to this gentleman here. Go ahead. I have

worked for years in the Health Service as a medical photographer, I

have the unique position of going through these departments. I feel

whenever the Belfast City Hospital closed the A, the pressure that

put on the Royal Victoria Hospital and the Ulster Hospital... Was that

the temporary closure? But, it is still going on as we know and the

movement of other services over to the Royal site, it put a lot of

pressure on the staff that are over there. I do know that the staff that

work in the Royal Victoria Hospital are great people. They have, I have

worked with them for many years and I have seen how good they are, but

the pressures are so vast on these people. It is inevitable mistakes

will be made. I know some of you have been

contacting me today and saying Stephen, don't put too much pressure

on the staff. It was the staff who contacted Declan, contacted the

Spotlight team. This is a team of dedicated staff who are trying to

bring some information into the public domain because they are

saying the system can't cope. The last people who should be blamed

here are the staff as you pointed out, all of the information that was

given to us, leaked to us, last night, was given to us by medical

and nursing people. They are the people who are concerned about what

is going on and they are the people who are demanding an urgent

transformation. The young man here. I just think that the Trust need to

realise the people of Northern Ireland are using A for the wrong

cases. They are taking up valuable time which should be going to

families that need the beds at the time.

We are joined by John Kelly. What are your thoughts here tonight? We

don't want to damn the National Health Service as we are saying, but

there is something that has got to be wrong, John, when families are

not told. They are not, never mind what is happening, they are not even

told. Well, I have been listening in and heard some of the stories here

and I don't think you can be moved by the distress that has been caused

and I have a lot of sympathy for the people that have been involved here.

I think as a health professional, it is very important that we are open

and honest with our patients. I have been a General Practitioner for over

25 years and I have always found that even when you get things wrong,

you must explain it to the patient and they can be very, very

understanding. The problem cannot be dealt with in isolation. I think we

need to look at how we manage the demand on our NHS services. There is

a small amount of money. Chucking money for quick solutions does not

work. We need to look at accident and emergency together with the

Ambulance Service, GP out-of-hours service...

they have fallen by 2% in the last five years. The number of emergency

admissions in Northern Ireland is less than in the other three

countries. I am also looking at the waiting time stats, all right,

that's been delivered to us, the patients in Northern Ireland. Let's

compare it to England because between October and December in

England there were a four hour target and that target was hit 93.5%

of the time in England. What do we get here delivered to us in Northern

Ireland? 77.5%, dropping to 72.5%. In December, 62% were seen in four

hours. There is the comparison with England and this is in the Royal

Victoria Hospital. It is interesting stuff. Maeve, what are you going to

do about it? Let's not forget when the Health Minister was in charge,

similar problems in A It was over ten years ago, but let's not forget

it? The framework in which we are now working under transforming your

care is a different context. The framework in which Barbara due brun

was an outcome based framework, but let me say this, I am not the

medical professional here, but there have been recommendations that have

been put forward and the College of Emergency Medicine, t report which

is almost a year old next month, made five recommendations around

what that young man in the audience said, the fact that our A are

turning into anything and everything. What do we need to do in

terms of alternatives to A? What do we need to do in relation to GP

out of hour systems? Do we need to look at employment contracts? We

need to stop closing beds and start to staffing up. There needs to be

more staff in the system as well to be able to manage. Tony Stevens told

me yesterday on the radio that it is really difficult to find the staff.

We simply don't have them. Now, they are recruiting another five now,

consultants, but it is difficult to fin the staff Well, my point... For

A We have been told there was a recruitment and retention issue. Yet

on Monday, when the minister made a statement, he stated we are now

recruiting quickly. Now, my question to him straight back to Mr Poots,

how come you can do it now and you couldn't do it some months ago? This

is in the system 18 months, flagged up by professionals, community,

patients and others. Thank you. Angela is on the line.

What would you like to say? I was in the hospital myself. I went through

an operation with a gall bladder to get it out. I was rushed back in

after it into the Royal. I sat in a wheelchair for near six to seven

hours and there was people beside me in trolleys, taking heart attacks.

How long ago? It was about three weeks ago. Three weeks ago? Yes. You

sat in accident and emergency for how long? I was in for six to seven

hours on a wheelchair. What was it like around you? Describe the scene?

It was like a slaughterhouse and that's the only way I can explain it

to you. There were people bleeding and people taking drugs in the place

and I had to inform one of the nurses about it. There was people,

an old man started being sick and taking a heart attack and we had to

shout for a nurse, they were standing doing their paperwork,

doctors were standing at the station doing their paperwork and not one of

them cared. That could not be true. The doctors and the nurses, you see,

if they didn't care, they wouldn't be in that job, the level of

intelligence and dedication that a doctor or nurse needs. I bet you

they cared and I bet you it was the system creeking around them. Thank

you for your call. I am wondering how long it is going to take to

resolve the A issue. Well, the minister tells us there is no

crisis. Well, five people died already. How many more? Are you

worried? I am, yeah. I want to give you, again, I am not doing this

because I have to, but because I want to, hundreds of thousands of

people have been through that hospital. 700,000 going through that

A, doing a fantastic job for people. These are relatively small

numbers, OK. But it is not a small number if it is your mum or it is

your dad and that's the issue here. The guy in the front row. My mother

has been in and out with heart problems... Say that again. My

mother has been in and out of the Mater with heart problems and the

other week my mother took chest pains and she had to beg the

ambulance men to take her to the Mater because of problems she in the

Royal before. She got stents fitted and she was sent home and the

consultant phoned her and said, "Why are you in the house?" They had to

send an ambulance to get her again. I have no confidence in the Royal

Victoria Hospital. The doctors do an amazing job in every hospital I have

been in, but it is just the system. They are closing down all the A

like the White Abbey, the City Hospital, and they are putting all

this pressure on the main two A Have confidence in the doctors. Have

confidence in the nurses at the Royal. Fantastic people who came to

him because they wanted the system to be better for you. So don't under

estimate that. Where that management team is tonight, what they think

they are doing, not sitting in here reassuring you, I'm doing that and

they are sitting at home. I'm not saying anything wrong about the

doctors and the consultants. Gemma Smith is from the Royal College of

Nurses. You are joining us from London. Good evening. Good evening.

We have got a situation in Northern Ireland where again, we have got to

balance this. The fantastic work that the NHS is doing and yet here

we have a situation. Let me get your reaction. Can you believe that one

of our major hospitals is not actually telling families when there

has been an adverse incident which may have contributed to their loved

one's death? It is written down and the Chief Executive knows and the

doctor knows and the family doesn't. Can you believe they're doing that?

No. I think that's totally unacceptable and very, very

unfortunate, indeed. I think that the nurses that are working in in

that service, this will be another thing that will cause them stress

and anxiety. How much pressure is there within

the hospital? Well, I think that's well documented now. I think that

people, the regulation quality improvement authority have been in

there. They have done the review. And our understanding is they have

found exactly the issues that we have found that nurses have been

raising with us and that we have been raising with the Trust. I think

that we have come to a point now... How long have you been raising this

with the Trust? For at least, well certainly this episode when the

pressure started to build was from November last year, but it is fair

to say that for 18 months, there has been pressure in the emergency

departments of the Belfast Trust and indeed, other trusts in Northern

Ireland. Mr Poots says there is no crisis. What do you say back to him?

Well, I hope there is not a crisis, but I think this is a turning point

and nurses are hopeful that this is a turning point. That people have

heard their voice. That we know we have got a problem, but we need to

identify exactly how to fix it and not start jumping to solutions

because we do not believe that just simply more doctors and morse nurses

are going to fix this. Janice, thank you very much indeed. I want to

thank you if you have been e-mailing me and phoning me on the radio show.

I am enning this segment of the show, saying thank you to the

doctors and to the nurses and indeed, to the managers in Northern

Ireland who do work tirelessly for the NHS, but there are questions to

answer and we are going to continue to ask them whether they are here or

not. OK, ladies and gentlemen, give our guests a round of applause.

Thank you, Declan. APPLAUSE

Right, loads to talk about. We should tell you how you can do so.

Of you will see the numbers coming oupen the screen right now. There

they are: If you are tweeting us, it is:

When I go home tonight, I will be answering your tweets, reading your

tweets for a couple of hours after the programme:

Or you can text us: Still to come:

The DUP says benefits could be stopped by 2016. We will find out

whether that's spin or fact later on. Now, my next guest's first big

gig was in front of an audience of 8.5 million people and what a talent

she is. # I'm sorry, I'm a little late

# I got your message # That was really, really, really

something. Your voice is incredible. It is unique and I know exactly what

to do with a voice like yours. What can I give you? I got perfume. Look.

This is awesome. I have got spectacles, you know, you want to

get reading, you get sexy and you get your spectacles on. You are too

bright. You are too bright. I can't stand it. You are a superstar. You

will need these! APPLAUSE

Can Northern Ireland win The Voice? Ladies and gentlemen, it is our

pleasure to have her singing live in this studio tonight. Please welcome,

Jai McConnell. # What you drinking?

# Rum or whisky? # Now, won't you have a double with

me? # I'm sorry I'm a little late

# I got your message by the way # I'm calling you today

# So let's go out for old time's sake

# Let's say we never meet # With my sweet joy always remember

me # We were mischievous

# And you were always wearing black # I was so sweet as you know my

boyfriend's mother # I'm sorry I'm a little the late

# I know stripes on a tiger or hard to change

# So let's go out for old time's sake

# I will never forget you # They say we never make it

# My sweet joys always remember me # I'll never forget you

# There are times we couldn't shake it

# You're my joy, always remember me # We just got swallowed up

# You know that I never forget you # We just got swallowed up

# You know that I'll never forget you

# We just got swallowed up # You know that I'll never forget

you # We just got swallowed up

# What you thinking? Did you miss me

# I borrowed your boots # Now, won't you let me give them

back to you # I'll never forget you

# They say we never make it # My sweet joys always remember me

# I'll never forget you # Although at times we couldn't

shake it. # You're my joy

# Don't you know that you are my joy # Always remember me

# Don't you know that you are my joy, always remember me #

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Hello there.

APPLAUSE Brilliant. How exciting is this? Can

you believe that you are in The Voice and you are doing so well and

what's ahead of you? It is terrifying.

LAUGHTER Are you really nervous? It doesn't

come across at all? I'm screaming inside. Are you? Honestly? A little

bit, yeah. Tell everybody how old you are? I'm 24. What's your dream?

My dream is to make amazing music and to learn as much as I can along

this experience and to just build up a good reputation for myself and be

taken seriously for what I want to do. When that chair spun around,

from that moment, how much has life changed? Amazingly. It is just been

insane. Overwhelming more than anything, but it is great as well.

I'm loving the work. The attention is a bit scary. I'll work hard at

it. What about Kylie? I wonder what the judges and coaches are really

like. Tell us about Kylie? Kylie is amazing. She is so tiny. She doesn't

stop moving, but she is great. She is a lovely woman. Are you allowing

yourself to dream of what could be ahead? Some people will be slightly

frightened about contestants thinking this is it and you can go

from there to kapoot or you can keep going up? My advice is not to think

too far ahead or think back, what if? You need to concentrate on what

you are doing more than anything because that's where you can slip up

if you over think anything. I often say on this programme that we find

it really easy to talk about what's wrong in Northern Ireland and you

know, you are singing throughout the UK now, that's what you are doing.

You are in a big competition, you are making it, we are all really

proud of you, and we want you to do so, so well, thank you very much for

singing in this studio. Give her a round of applause, ladies and

gentlemen. APPLAUSE

Right. Good stuff. Now, we will move on. Nearly 700,000 people in the UK

have been diagnosed with dementia. Last year, the G8 leaders set a

target of 2025 to find a cure for the condition. Away from the

headlines, there are countless stories of devastating stories. One

of the people who have written a story about the illness is Sally

Magnusson. Hello Sally. Hello there. Good to see you. Hi. Well, I was

saying to you before we came on air that it is an illness and a disease

that I fear, I have a fear of it happening to anyone I know or I

love. And it happened to your mum? It did and it is understandable that

people fear it. It is a horrific disease. There is no way of getting

around that. It was a shock that somebody as lively and vibrant and

alive as my mother was, she was always very vital, she was a great

writer, a very sort of feisty, tomboyish character and anybody less

likely you would have thought to fall prey to this disease. It was

hard to think of and when you know, our family realised that it was

happening to her, it was hard to take on board, but I've learnt such

a lot through this, through this journey which is partly why I wrote

the book and it is not completely to be feared because there are all

sorts of positive things about the journey through dementia that I

think don't get publicised very much. These are individuals with

continuing flashes of personality in all sorts of interesting ways if

that can only be nurtured. One of the first signs that maybe something

was wrong was actually in its own way slightly funny. YAz. What

happened? Mother was always funny I must say. She was a tremendous show

off and she was always getting into scrapes and getting stuck in

automatic toilets and all sorts of things and it was no surprise when

one night when I and my young daughter and her had gone to the

island of mull, we were going to track down our ancestors and we were

in a guesthouse and I noticed a lack of cure osity about my mother

because she was always alert and interested and she hadn't been as

interested in the detail of this trip that I expected, but fine,

everything else was normal. We went to bed in this strange guesthouse

and she was in the room upstairs and I was downstairs with my daughter in

another bedroom. I was lying in bedroom reading and about midnight

there was a knock on the door and there was my mother standing there

with her pyjama top on and no pyjama bottoms, but fortunately a pair of

knickers. I was delighted to see. I said, "Mum, what are you doing?" She

said, "I was going to the toilet and locked myself out of my room." Fine.

I laughed too. It was only when I said, "Mum, where are your pyjama

trousers? You could have met anybody walking along the corridor? " She

gave me a blank look. I found it very hard at the time and I find it

hard still to express what I felt at that time. It was just a slight kind

of alarm bellish twang of disquiet and there was also something about

the look in her eye which became very familiar, a sort of blankness

and then it was gone. And when was the moment when you realised there

was something definitely wrong? I'm not sure these things come as

concrete moments. It is a very gradual thing and you are just, you

know, it is hard to look back over the years and think that was the

moment. Just more and more, she began to go off the boil. She began

to have, she would be less and less able to initiate actions of her own.

Her story telling began to wander. She stopped writing. I know she was

speaking at a funeral and she kept reading the same page? I know, that

was such a shame. And you were there. I know. Presumably you want

to step in and help her? There is a difficult balance you want to strike

between allowing the person to be independent and have a sense of

normality and achievement and at the same time protect them in a sense

from not just from physical harm, but from themselves and she had been

asked to speak at the funeral of an old friend and she was very keen to

do it and my sister and I wrote up something for her to say and I took

her there and she went up there and I tell you, it was just like, to

start with, it was like waiting for my first-born at the age of three to

come on to the school nursery nativity, I was so nervous for her

and she went up there and then I relaxed, I thought great, she is

reading the words well of. She is doing it with a great aplomb and she

got to page three in her notes. She got to the end and then she turned

over and she started on page one again. She didn't realise... Her

memory. That short-term memory that tells you that you have just done

something had gone and with great, you know, great presence she started

on it again. And then you have got that dilemma, do you go up and take

her off the stage? I don't find the right moment to do it. She is bound

to stop now. I will do it in a minute and she never did and the

minister helped her off. I heard other people tell me a similar story

of how when their mum or dad stopped recognising them. That's tough. This

pillar in your life. I am so, my dad is dead now, my mum is still alive,

I am so close to her, I love her dearly, I can't imagine life without

her. I think, and I don't mean this in an offensive way, I think I would

rather not have my mum than have my mum and her not know who I was. Does

that make sense? I understand it, but what I would say to you, the

best thing I ever, ever did was to look after my mum and to be there

for her as she went along this long and difficult path and to discover

in the looking after her that I had got to the nub of what love is about

because love, you know, is, and you love your mother and you would find

this, it is about the giving out and the shoring up, even when your heart

is breaking, are... Even when they are Sally, who are you? Yes. When

you embraced your mum and she said, " Who are you?" Yes.

You visited your mum on Christmas Eve and she didn't know who you

were? I was dressed up too much. I had a short skirt on. I had too much

make-up. I was full of Christmas spirit and I pranced into the room

and this was very, ne near the end of this long journey and she was

very agitated and distressed at that point and she looked at me, she

didn't have a clue who I was. There was hostility in her highs which was

-- hereyes which was the hardest thing to take. And I went a way that

Christmas Eve night thinking, my heart is going to break. That would

hurt. But I went back and I looked up an old letter of her's because I

wanted to see what her heart was really like. I looked up an old

letter which started, "My dearest, Sal. How wonderful you have been to

me all those years." I felt that's what I feel about my children right

now. This is me, right now, this is me, this is what I feel about them,

this is how much I love them. This is the essence of me, this is not

going to change and I suddenly thought, that's the same with my

mother. That's her essence. Her essence just like the essence of

your mother is the woman who loves you in her deepest core and even if

a disease attacks her brain, that is her and it is injure job as a son to

nurture that and let that flourish as much as it can to the end. We can

do that with people with dementia. We mustn't give up on them. In this

amazing organ that is the brain, you saw flashes in your mum of the mum

who you had always known with music. She had always been a singer and

then whatever way the brain works, even when she was deteriorating,

when she sang, she was herself? She was. Isn't that amazing? It is

amazing and completely common. It is not just because she enjoyed songs.

After she died I went to investigate this, this phenomenon and discovered

that in fact there is a neurological affect of familiar music on the

brain, it gets all sorts of neuro networks going and it can bring back

identity. Not as a cure, not forever, but for periods at a time.

If I get it, I will do people's heads in, I will be singing Bett

Middler. Give us your play list. We are trying to collect play lists.

Five of your top pieces of music and send it to our website and what we

are doing through that is trying to tell anybody who has a loved one

with dementia, get it on an iPod and offer it to them any time of the day

or night and help ground them in these familiar chords and songs and

words of the past and you find that words will come back and identity

will come back. I will tell you what, talking to me tonight, you

have given me food for thought of how to approach someone with

dementia and who knows who it it is going to touch in their lives? I

want all health professionals to read this book and find out what it

is like for people with dementia because too many decisions are made

without people understanding that. Thank you very much, Sally. Of

APPLAUSE Right, now, before we move on, let's

remind you how you can get in touch with the programme of the thousands

of you interact with the programme every Wednesday night. There is the

number on your screen: You will see the next number coming

up: There is a Twitter address:

Right, now, this will be fiery. The computer could be switched off and

your benefits stopped. That's what the DUP is saying could happen as

early as 2016. Sammy Wilson from the DUP, your opponents would say this

is a spin. It is waffle and there is no way that you should be scaring

people that their benefits will be stopped? I'm not scaring them. What

I'm saying is this a reality. If we do not have the new system of

Universal Credit in place then the computers which currently administer

Jobseeker's Allowance, tax credits, employment Income Support benefits

will no longer be available because it will be turn off

will no longer be available because You won't leave people in Northern

Ireland without money, you won't do it? No, we won't do it, we will try

and not do it, but one of the problems is we can't get the Welfare

Reform legislation through the assembly. It is being blocked by

Sinn Fein and as a result the countdown is going towards Universal

Credit being introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom not introduced

in Northern Ireland and we will have to purchase the computer system and

the Central Government ware from the Department of -- and the software

from the Department of Work and Pensions. That could cost us ?300

million. And then we have to service it and we have to get the system

which deals with housing ben if it's, tax credits, child tax

credits, because it is not going to be used any longer in any other part

of the United Kingdom. The other thing, of course, about this... We

will come to the other thing in a second. It is a black and white

issue. He is either telling us what is ahead of it or you lot are

spoofing? What is happening? In October 2012, whenever the minister

put the Bill into the Assembly for a debate we were told on that date

that we would face ?100 million, 200 illion if the Bill wasn't passed

then and there. Now, that's 2012, October. This is February 2014. So

from 2012 to 2014... Is the computer being switched off in 2016 or not?

Well, why would it be? Because it is not being used in the rest of the

UK. All the parties around the Executive table, our job is to get

the best benefit system for the people we represent. If you don't

get it, are you denying that computer is being switched off? You

have to have a reality check. We have a Welfare Reform Bill that's

being brought in from London. We have got to make it a better Bill if

we can do. What we have been arguing from the start as have all the other

parties, including Sammy's, as have the churches and trade unions and

many other people out in society, we are saying that this cuts coming

from London has to be tackled because we are told this is about

reform. In other words, you are rolling over? Alex, I warned in

2014, let's do a reality check. This is 2014? Or 2013 if we did not have

the system, the new system in place fines would start. We are paying ?5

million a month to Westminster at present. No, you are not. Because we

don't have the new system. You are not paying a penny. You are not. The

fines have started in January. No. They haven't. This is like a

pantomime. This is a reality. Just as you think. You haven't paid a

penny? When you think all the computers are switched off in the

rest of the United Kingdom because with he no longer have Jobseeker's

Allowance. We no longer have Income Support, we no longer have working

tax credits, do you think they will keep the system going because we in

Northern Ireland decided to keep it? The other thing, of course, is

this... Let him reply. This should not be a Punch and Judy Show. Who is

Punch and who is Judy? Well, I will be Punch and whoever likes to be

Judy. You are punch-drunk. I think that's your problem.

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

Let's be very clear. Go on. The Executive has set aside ?5 million

for a month for three months on the basis the Finance Minister is saying

the London Government is going to fine us ?5 million. There hasn't

been a penny paid over. They are taking ?5 million. They haven't got

it. It is a fine. We can't spend it. It hasn't been spent yet and it

hasn't been levied yet. The department will tell us and Sammy

can verify this, the department told us when you implement this Bill

unchanged it will take ?450 million per year out of the local economy.

It will not. It will not. I am sorry. Maybe I get finishing a

point, Stephen. Well, hurry up. Well, sorry. We have got four

minutes. ?450 million will come out of the local budget. OK, that's out

of people's pockets. We have a responsibility to do the best for

the people we represent. What do you want? We have said and we made

progress. There wouldn't have been any progress if we hadn't dug our

heels in. What will push this deal through? First of all, we need to

make sure that people who are on sickness for example, this is one

example, people who are sick have to have a fit for purpose system which

will assess them. That's for start off. Are you letting that through?

If he knew what was already agreed, he would know that what we have said

for people on PIPs or people turned down on their medical assessments,

we have put aside ?6 million so they can get an independent doctor's

report to help them in their appeal against a decision like that. So we

have addressed that issue. So... We have agreed ?6 million and I wasn't

going to quote that figure because that's a matter that the parties

have been discussing in the Executive. I'm not on the Executive

so I'm not supposed to know that. You know it now. We have agreed ?6

million to pay for medical evidence for a flawed system because people

are going through tribunals every day of the week and they are telling

us the system is not working. What the A said is fundamentally flawed.

Is this about, let me clear this up, some people would have whispered

what this is about is Sinn Fein having an anti-cuts agenda in the

south and you lot are afraid to be seen to be implementing it up here?

We have an anti-cuts agenda across the island because we have got a

party across the Ireland. But you have got to be real. People said to

us, oh, Kilthe Bill. It may may a good headline, but it doesn't solve

the problem. And this is going to cost ?1 million. We have been

negotiating with his party and other parties around the table. Sammy

Wilson? Let me go through the changes. We have one minute and we

are off air and you will be talking to yourself. I talk to myself quite

frequently. When I'm dealing with Sinn Fein I think I'm talking to

myself because they don't seem to listen.

APPLAUSE Old con. Spell it out to me. This is

serious. It is. We have got to recognise that we are going to pay

out this year ?105 million to the Treasury because we will not put

through legislation which Alex Maskey has said he won't kill. Why

are we going to spend money which could have been used to employ

nurses, teachers and give it back to the Treasury when we have got

concessions. We have got the bedroom tax done away with. We have got help

with rates. We have got direct payments... Are you two, hold on,

are you two prepared to talk to each other more quickly over the next

couple of days and weeks? Well, I have been doing it for, when I was

Finance Minister... We can do it before 2016. It has to be done

before March. Sammy Wilson, thank you very much

indeed. Alex Maskey, thank you. If you want to continue this at home,

it is: We will see on the radio tomorrow

morning at 9am. Thank you. Night-night, everybody.

For Patsy and John, age is just a number.

People might think that we're crazy, but we're looking after our health.

At the top of their game, in the twilight of their lives...

These are just some of my medals I've won over the years.