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Young Voters' Question Time

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The politicians have set out their stalls at the party conferences

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will young voters buy their policies? Welcome to Young Voters'

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With me tonight, the rapper wh says sometimes young people need to

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blaze up a fire, Speech Debelle. The business woman and winner of

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the Apprentice, Stella English. The story who is tipped to be the first

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black Prime Minister, Kwasi Kwarteng. Humza Yousaf. Voted the

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sexiest MP the newest Liver bird in Liverpool, Luciana Berger and the

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unionior minister who quit over tuition fees, Jenny Willott.

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So, hello there. Welcome to Young Voters' Question Time. We are live

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from Salford. Just down the road from the Tory party conference with

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a lively audience of young people. You see! They are ready to tackle

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our panellists from left, right and centre. You can get involved too

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via twitter. Just include the hash tag yvqt and it will come through

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right here. I will read out as many as I can. Let me hear the first

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question from Rory Anderson of Leeds University. My question to

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the panel is, I want to know if they think Meredith Kercher has

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received justice? Has Meredith Kercher received justice? Amanda

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Knox is on her way home to Seattle as we speak. Speech Debelle? Um, I

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don't... I mean, somebody's died, I'm not sure if there can really be

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justice, even if what happened yesterday didn't happen. I think,

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already somebody is already in jail for the murder. Rudy Guede is in

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jail. Exactly. I mean, to be honest, when I was watching the news

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yesterday, when they were revealing the verdict I kind of just felt

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like, looking at the family, like, it still just hurts, do you know

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what I mean? It still feels the same to them, regardless of whether

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she stayed in jail or not, I think that is probably how they would

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have felt. It still feels the same. Four years now since the murder?

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don't think four years makes a difference if that is the case. In

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erms terms of justice whether it was served, I'm not sure. That is

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something the family will be more in a position to answer. They said

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they are back to square one which is what Meredith's brother said

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today. There are unanswered questions. Italy's highest court

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said the murderer in prison for this did not act alone. They are

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saying who is it if it wasn't Knox incomes and Raffaele Sollecito.

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hasn't received justice because she was murdered. We don't know who the

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people were who were responsible for it. There was difficulty with

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this case because it was a massive media circus with Foxy Knoxy. The

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details of the case were obscured.. I'm not sure the family have

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received justice. Did it feel strange that you could watch that

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verdict? An incredible moment of human drama, wasn't it? You could

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watch the verdict being read out. They had a live satellite libg link

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to Amanda Knox' family. Were you comfortable being able to see that?

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I think this was quied quite odd. They have a different process than

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we have. There are talks of CAMRA in court in England? I wouldn't

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support that. Any thoughts on this from the audience? The gentleman at

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the back. I don't think there was justice. I think that it's just a

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clear example that somebody with enough money and enough time,

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you'll always be able to pick small little things in a case. I think

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that - I don't know what you mean, with enough money? What are you

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implied? They found that evidence might have been contaminated or...

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Ipg over four years you are going to find small parts of a case that

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might have been contaminated. I don't think that they should change

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the sentence after four years. I still think she did it. You are,

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basically, saying you think Knox and her ex-boyfriend, Raffaele

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Sollecito, are guilty is what you are saying? Yes. Two things about

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that. One, what you described there is the Italian system, the appeal

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system. Secondly, they have been found not guilty. That is the view

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of the court. That DNA evidence was undermined and dismissed, wasn't

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it? I think that the Italian justice system made a big song and

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dance about this and they got it completely wrong. I don't see how

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you can bang someone up for four years and then just suddenly

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overturn the decision for like a life sentence and sent them free

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completely. I think they handled -- handled the case completely wrong.

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Whether she did it or not, the fact I heard today that Amanda Knox is

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possibly getting a book deal from it. Hollywood movies. That is

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rubbing it in for the family. you were her and you had four years

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taken away and you had been through hell. Let us assume she is innocent.

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That is how she was found by the court. Wouldn't you want to profit

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from it? From the family's perspective for four years they

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thought she was a murderer. For her to be on television etc. To become

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a celebrity. What do you think? What about the fact there that she

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might make a load of money from that? I think that's untasteful.

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She will get compensation, I have no doubt for having time taken away

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from her life for what was a horrific experience. People have

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been miscarriages of justice have happened in Britain. It's been

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longer than four years. We have to recognise that miscarriages can

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happen. I agree with Kwasi, maybe the only time - Don't rub it it in.

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What this media circus can do is create witch hunts. That is

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dangerous. We have seen it time and time again, Rebecca Lleyton she

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went through a difficult time. It happens time and time again. Media

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in court rooms is a bad area. It's certainly you don't have in

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Scotland and something I don't think it should be introduced here.

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The SNP and the Conservatives don't agree, really? Amanda Knox some

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people think it's distasteful she can make money out of this.

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Apparently, her parents re- mortgaged their house to fund her

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appeal, what do you think about that? They funded a massive PR

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campaign which played out on televisions across the media.

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that a bad thing We have forgotten Meredith Kercher. Meredith Kercher

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was the daughter and the sister to the Kercher family. That should be

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the focus of this discussion not what happened to Amanda Knox.

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Back out to the audience. Gentleman there, in the red top. I think that

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the prosecutors made a massive mistake in the way they went about

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pleading their case. It became a case of character assassination

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rather than presenting the facts. They used that to cover the fact

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they had little forensic evidence. 50 pieces of forensic evidence were

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flawed. The way they went about it didn't help them. Police and

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prosecutors came up with this sex game theory, didn't they?? The Foxy

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Knoxy thing didn't work in their favour. This became a bigger story

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partly because of her looks, didn't it, in the end? It's the media. The

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media have control - We watch the media. We are not even, like, half

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of the time we are not given the choice whether to watch. It's in

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our face all the time. It's rape, murder on the front pages. Whether

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this comes to play in the actual court deciding on who is guilty or

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not. One more question and move we will move to our next topic. The

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lady there. Surely with the amount she changed her story that in

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itself is a crime against the courts? OK. Jenny quick comment

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from you on this. Well, I think, what it has shown up is significant

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differences between the way the media relates to court cases in

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Italy from the way we would have it here. Eagree with the gentleman who

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said it was a circus the way Amanda Knox was portrayed and the way

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prosecutors were speaking in the media. I think it did completely

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overshadowed what happened to Meredith Kercher. And, the thing

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that has upset me this week is that you would think the entire trial

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was about - the entire thing was about Amanda Knox and her boyfriend

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whether or not they were guilty or innocent. Completely forgotten the

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original crime that took place. I think that the Kercher family have

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shown the most amazing resilience and dignity throughout it.

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Particularly, this week. APPLAUSE

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They were impressive at their press conferences. In a strange way, even

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Raffaele Sollecito got for got continue became about Amanda Knox

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largely, didn't it? Stella a comment from you on this. I think

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the mere fact that what we are all discussing is Foxy Knoxy and her

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media persona just is really test month to the fact that the whole

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thing went wrong, from my point of view, morally. We shouldn't be

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talking about that. It should be about what happened and why and

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everything else. So, unfortunately, I think, from the point of view of

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taste, the media has played a role here which has knead very

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distasteful. Thank you. Our next question. You can tweet us at: That

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is if you want to get involved tonight. Thomas Gore, a student for

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our next question. My question is, how is it fair that the Scottish

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gefplt can charge English students �9,000 per annum in tuition fees

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from next year when Scottish students don't have to pay a penny?

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I have a feeling this will blow up. You are from the SNP? Absolutely.

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The Scottish government gets money, pocket money a block grant where by

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it has to take care of those who live in Scotland. You are impeding

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the view of the young gentleman. Bethey English Scots, Irish Scots

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those living in Scotland don't pay a single penny we in the Scottish

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Government believe that education has to be based on the ability to

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learn not the ability to pay. If we could extend that...

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APPLAUSE If we could extend that and other

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policies like our free prescriptions charges to cover

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English students and the rest of the UK students, by God, we would.

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I wish we really Co on that point shall I respect Jenny for the

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position she took, it must have been a difficult position - When

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she quit Yes. Those Lib Dems who did the opposite. Scottish MPs

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voted for tuition fees even though it doesn't cover Scotland. That is

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the biggest betrayal in recent modern British political history.

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Those people - it should be - as young people it should be your duty

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as young people when the next general election comes you should

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make sure it's them out of jobs and not you. In Scotland the students

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don't have to pay tuition fees an English student going there would

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have pay. Northern Ireland student or Welsh student. Anyone from the

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EU would have to pay. In Wales they are getting a subsidy? There are

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not enough Welsh university places. EU students would wouldn't have to

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pay? It's currently illegal. We are trying to work with the European

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Commission to change it. Your thoughts on this. Surely, it should

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show that Scottish MPs shouldn't be allowed to vote on English matters

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that only affect English citizens? Absolutely.

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APPLAUSE Can I make a point on. That I'm a

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Welsh member of Parliament, so it's not - it doesn't apply quite the

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same in Wales. It isn't quite as simple as that. I have constituents

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I represent the area that covers car div University, University of

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Glamorgan and so on. I have English students living there at Cardiff

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University and Welsh students living there. I have constituents

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who come under the Welsh and English system. It affects people

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living in my area as well. It's the same for Scottish MPs. None of it

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is quite as cut and dry at first glance it might be. The guy who

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said Scottish MPs shouldn't be voting on English matters. Which

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way did you vote? For tuition fees. They were introduced by the Labour

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government in 2004 the debate was about the level. Is it fair English

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students will have a bigger debt for the rest of their working

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lives? Absolutely not. Than Scottish students Yes. The cap on

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Welsh students is just over 3,000 the rest is subsidised. It sounds

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unfair. The burden on the taxpayer was so big that we couldn't have a

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system which I had, because I am just about old enough to remember

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that, where it was entierly free. Free education? Did you just say it

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was unfair? I said it's unfair the disparity between Scotland and

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England, yes. That is an issue for the Scottish Government. They will

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have to subsidise. Loads of hands up. Gentleman there in the glasses.

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What Kwasi done has cut the ladder so we cannot climb the ladder of

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suck kes -- success we will not be where you are today because of what

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you have done. I will collate a few points, right. We will come back to

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My opinion on the matter is that the British Government and the

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British economy created a derth in opportunity by driving every single

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young person in England and Britain through university and not creating

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vocational opportunities and making boy technics -- polytechnic

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universities, and creating a... It's a Labour policy to get 50% of

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people into university and that was a mistake is what you are saying?

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The economics don't work. The market will not support a majority

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of young people who have professional degrees. There needs

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to be more of a balance. OK, the gentleman in front of you. I have

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to be honest, Kwasi, I disagree, there is no need to put this

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massive burden on students. can't be afforded. Tax bankers. Why,

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why...? Can I come back to that. Why are you taxing students?

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your objection to the principle of fees generally, or the level?

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level. �9,000 a year is just unrealistic for the majority of

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young people. You are willing to pay, you are not saying it - some

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people are saying it should be free. I am willing to pay, but not a

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level where the majority of people - education should be a right for

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everyone. Sure. Many people cannot afford the level that your

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Government has put in place. More have gone for the �9,000 level.

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People only start paying back when they start earning �21,000 a year.

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It's still a debt that hangs over them, like a mortgage. The interest

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on that is �7 a month, which is a lot of money but for the quality of

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an education, the price of education I think it's a price

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worth paying. I think a lot of people would agree with me. If I

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went to university for �9,000 and the rest of my life never earned

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above �21,000 I would feel a bit short-changed. APPLAUSE.

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Speech Debelle, Stella English, neither of you went to university,

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did you? I didn't and I think - I didn't have the opportunity to do

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it. I don't think it's something that one should have to think about

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whether they can afford it or not. I think we have got a whole

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generation of people that need to be educated, they're our future.

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They can't afford until they don't pay back until they're earning

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money. We are talking about here people are worried about getting in

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debt, they're thinking about how they're going to cope going forward.

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Why should they have to think like that? Exactly,ed problem is that

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it's - I don't think it boils down to whether they can afford it or

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can't. If you have a situation where a generation of people feel

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like now they're some sort of, you know, to a certain extent like an

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enemy, to the point they feel they have to go out and riot, know what

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I mean, because of a decision that's been made that puts them in

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a position that isn't good. I don't think a generation of people in our

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country should feel like that. I think that's a problem. Whether

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they can afford it, necessarily or not, I don't think we can afford to

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make them feel like there's a level of hopelessness in their future. I

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think that's probably the biggest debt that's going to have to be

:18:15.:18:19.

paid there. You think it's unfair because there are certain people

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will feel that and other people would never feel that way. It boils

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down to how we feel as society and I don't think we can afford to let

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young people feel as though they're not going to be part of it. A lot

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of hands up. We go to the lady with blonde hair up there. Good evening.

:18:36.:18:41.

Hi, I was going to say the average age of the first-time house buyers

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is 37, which is obviously shockingly high and David Cameron

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said this was appalling but when you are charging us that much to go

:18:49.:18:53.

to university how can you expect us to get into the property ladder, to

:18:53.:18:57.

get into society and earn the high figures? I don't think it's

:18:57.:19:02.

something that can be justified. The average repayments are about �6

:19:02.:19:08.

a week, they're low. It doesn't matter. When you go to any new

:19:08.:19:12.

agreement people will want to know whatets you have got. -- what debts

:19:12.:19:19.

you have got. It might not seem like much to people on the panel.

:19:19.:19:24.

The The tuition fees have only gone up. They went up a few years ago

:19:24.:19:27.

and that was a lot to some people. There's a lot of people aren't

:19:27.:19:31.

willing to pay at the risk of going through university and not getting

:19:31.:19:35.

a job at the end of it. It's a big risk for people to take and a lot

:19:35.:19:40.

of people wouldn't. On this point, at the Labour Party conference last

:19:40.:19:44.

week Ed Miliband, your leader, was talking about tuition fees and it

:19:44.:19:48.

seems there have been a policy U- turn, where he was against putting

:19:48.:19:54.

them up, right. And now he is saying they do support a �6,000

:19:54.:19:58.

tuition fees. That's not what he said before. What Ed Miliband said

:19:58.:20:01.

at our conference only last week was that right now we could put

:20:01.:20:07.

fees down to a cap of �6,000, rather than �9,000. An increase

:20:07.:20:12.

from where they were. In terms of what we can promise and deliver,

:20:12.:20:17.

someone mentioned the bankers, if we introduced a bankers' bonus

:20:17.:20:20.

bonus - forgive me, if we didn't cut the corporation tax of banks,

:20:20.:20:25.

it's gone from 29% to 23% and bankers are benefiting from that.

:20:25.:20:28.

If we scrap that for banks and allocated that to tuition fees we

:20:28.:20:34.

could reduce the cap to �6,000 and the point is we can't make promises

:20:34.:20:38.

we can't keep. We saw that with the Lib Dems at the last election.

:20:38.:20:41.

There's so many students in my constituency that feel let down

:20:41.:20:44.

because they made promises they couldn't keep. Now we need to

:20:44.:20:47.

regain trust with the British public and ensure that what we

:20:47.:20:53.

promise is what we can deliver. Some tweets have come in. One says:

:20:53.:20:59.

I want to go to uni and not live in debt. Matthew is impressed by the

:20:59.:21:02.

wonders of devolved Government, the Scots in my opinion, wisely, spend

:21:02.:21:07.

the money on higher education as an investment. Another says: The

:21:07.:21:10.

English Government should try to be like Scotland, but they're not. A

:21:10.:21:16.

lot of people won't now go to uni. Kenny says well done for showing it

:21:16.:21:19.

isn't Scotland's fault, the English Government want to give their

:21:19.:21:24.

students a huge financial burden but it's strange how the UK's taxes

:21:24.:21:32.

subsidise Scottish tuition fees. Do they? There's a formula and under

:21:32.:21:39.

that Humza would know, each person has to get more... That's true.

:21:39.:21:45.

It's the investment. Let me come back to two points - I will come

:21:45.:21:53.

back. Under the formula you are? we gave 9.4%, we gave that in tax

:21:53.:21:57.

money and got less in spending how is that a subsidy? Let me come back

:21:57.:22:02.

to the affording point. Politician after politician saying we can't

:22:02.:22:06.

afford it, but why don't you try not spending �100 billion on

:22:06.:22:11.

replacing nuclear weapons and Trident? Billions of pounds on

:22:11.:22:15.

wars? Why don't you try spending the money on higher education

:22:15.:22:19.

instead of money on that? Exactly what your tweet says, it's about

:22:19.:22:24.

where you choose to spend your money. Nuclear weapons are these ar

:22:24.:22:34.
:22:34.:22:35.

cane cold war relics. Young people don't like the nuclear deterrent,

:22:35.:22:40.

who would have thought! Let's have a few points and move on to the

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next question. You look very enthusiastic. From a graduate's

:22:45.:22:50.

point of view, I graduated a few years ago under the old system and

:22:50.:22:55.

I am on about �18,000 a year, I wouldn't be paying anything back. I

:22:55.:22:58.

am paying about �30 a month back which is a lot of money for me, I

:22:58.:23:02.

would be paying less back under the new system. I would prefer the new

:23:02.:23:05.

system even though you will be paying back more in the long run

:23:05.:23:10.

it's more affordable. The main issue is maintenance, that's what I

:23:10.:23:13.

found cost me the most money at university. I had to get a part-

:23:13.:23:18.

time job because I had to pay maintenance and rent and going out

:23:18.:23:23.

having a few beers. Books, that's what you spend money on. The

:23:23.:23:26.

tuition fees, that's what you pay for after you graduated. Right so

:23:26.:23:35.

your real cost is your drink bill! One point, the gentleman here with

:23:35.:23:38.

the beard. I found it hard to respect decisions made by

:23:38.:23:41.

politicians who didn't have to pay for their education at university

:23:42.:23:49.

and how can they empathise with us making us pay �9,000? APPLAUSE.

:23:49.:23:52.

This generation of politicians didn't have to pay tuition fees and

:23:52.:23:57.

these guys are. Let's move on to other questions. Can I come back on

:23:57.:24:01.

one thing, I don't agree with Tuesday and volted -- tuition feess

:24:01.:24:05.

and voted against them. One positive thing, students will have

:24:05.:24:11.

a much bigger stay - universities will have to pay more to what

:24:11.:24:14.

students want out of their course. We have to see how much more

:24:14.:24:16.

influence students, because they're paying, will be able to have over

:24:16.:24:20.

universities, over the courses and be able to change universities to

:24:20.:24:24.

give them more what they want and I hope people take the opportunity to

:24:24.:24:27.

use that power that they will now have to get what they want from

:24:27.:24:32.

universities. You are reducing investment in higher education so

:24:32.:24:36.

students will pay �9,000 but reducing the money that goes to

:24:36.:24:39.

universities so you are not getting a better quality education in

:24:39.:24:47.

return. We are going to move on. We are going to Megan Caulfield, I

:24:47.:24:51.

believe. A law student, what's your question, please. Other than on a

:24:51.:24:55.

political level, how can you justify the sentences given to this

:24:55.:25:01.

year's rioters? OK, here we go back on riots. How can the sentences be

:25:01.:25:05.

justified? There are remarkable stats relating to this. Here in the

:25:05.:25:09.

Manchester area, those that were convicted of organising riots or

:25:09.:25:13.

looting commercial properties were given eight years and above. Eight

:25:13.:25:17.

years and above. So, a very dramatic sentence. Who would like

:25:17.:25:24.

to go first? I will. Stella, you are smiling at me. I think that's

:25:24.:25:30.

ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? Because if you look at the broad

:25:30.:25:37.

range of crimes that go on that is just not proportional... Organising

:25:37.:25:43.

a riot is not a serious crime? this the Mafia, organised crime? We

:25:43.:25:47.

are talking about - I thought it was looting and know what I mean,

:25:47.:25:55.

if you are talking about those crimes in the riots, then no, it

:25:55.:25:58.

wouldn't justify. If you were to set fire to a building that would

:25:58.:26:04.

be regarded as arson. Regardless of organised crime. People who got

:26:04.:26:07.

convicted of arson again here in the Greater Manchester area got six

:26:07.:26:12.

years and upwards. Those who looted commercial property and those were

:26:12.:26:16.

seen as ringleaders got eight years and above. There were tough

:26:16.:26:21.

sentences but I will explain why Lordship. You -- you don't think

:26:21.:26:24.

too tough? I am trying to explain what the thinking is. There was a

:26:24.:26:29.

breakdown of civil order and people were generally scared about what

:26:29.:26:34.

was going on. The idea was to try and get a very strong message out

:26:34.:26:37.

to the public that this sort of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated. We

:26:37.:26:41.

haven't seen riots for 30 years on this scale. It was quite terrifying

:26:41.:26:44.

for people. And the public generally wanted to see that

:26:44.:26:48.

justice was done. Now these were tough sentences and some people

:26:48.:26:54.

would say they were too tough. But I think the right message went down

:26:54.:26:59.

and restored faith in our justice system. When did we start

:26:59.:27:04.

sentencing to please the public? The most important thing...

:27:04.:27:11.

August. It's quite important for the public as a whole to feel safe.

:27:11.:27:15.

They don't determine determine sentencing because they're angry?

:27:15.:27:18.

There has to be confidence in the system. Once there isn't confidence

:27:18.:27:22.

in the system, then you can lead to breakdown and in a way that was

:27:22.:27:25.

what happened in the riots. People said that they didn't think the

:27:25.:27:29.

sentences would be tough enough and that's why they went on the streets.

:27:29.:27:35.

And to keep order as well. It was civil order. Anyone here think

:27:35.:27:38.

that's right, those sentences I already mentioned, it's a good

:27:38.:27:40.

thing that the sentencing was that harsh on the people that organised

:27:40.:27:48.

riots? The gentleman there. I think the problem with it, I mean, it's

:27:48.:27:54.

important to have sentenced the two half-wits who tried to start riots

:27:54.:28:01.

in... The Facebook ones? Yeah, it was like, I didn't feel necessarily

:28:01.:28:03.

comfortable with that being the case but they could have caused a

:28:03.:28:09.

lot of damage but four years is a lot. They never left their bedrooms.

:28:10.:28:13.

They need to be proportional, something like a year of community

:28:13.:28:17.

community service for being a lunatic but someone who breaks

:28:17.:28:21.

stuff needs a lot more. It all needs to be within proportion. If

:28:21.:28:24.

you do something really bad that needs to be a hell of a lot longer

:28:24.:28:28.

than someone who just thinks about or tries to encourage others. Maybe

:28:28.:28:36.

a community sentence. Thank you. Who thinks the sentences are about

:28:36.:28:42.

right? The gentleman there. Both of you can speak. As a guy from

:28:42.:28:48.

Salford who was witnessing my local area, I think it's right, because

:28:48.:28:52.

it puts people off. But also an added sentence on top of that was

:28:52.:28:55.

the fact all those people who cleaned up afterwards deserve

:28:55.:29:05.
:29:05.:29:06.

credit for what they did and it rubbed in how terrible they were.

:29:06.:29:10.

There was a Lidl burned down in Salford. Bricks thrown at

:29:10.:29:15.

firefighters. Gentlemen there. think it's absolutely ridiculous

:29:15.:29:18.

that the Conservatives can go on about how the big society, because

:29:18.:29:22.

that was an explosion of the big society. The people who the

:29:22.:29:25.

Conservatives are creating the underclass of people who if they

:29:25.:29:29.

were in jobs they would not have rioted. They simply would not have

:29:29.:29:32.

done. It's ridiculous how the Conservatives are going oh no, this

:29:32.:29:36.

is all to do with social order and breaking social order and we need

:29:36.:29:41.

to punish them. We need people to be rehabilitated because that is

:29:41.:29:44.

proven to work better than punishing them by just throwing

:29:44.:29:49.

them in prison and locking away the key. It's ridiculous. APPLAUSE. Are

:29:49.:29:52.

you saying, to break that down, that's an example of the big

:29:52.:29:55.

society, people going out and rioting? This is the big society

:29:55.:29:59.

where people are extremely annoyed at the Government, at the coalition

:29:59.:30:02.

and Labour can't really talk, because they didn't help in their

:30:02.:30:05.

13 years of Government. They did not help the people of Great

:30:05.:30:10.

Britain. You really think those people rioting were thinking about

:30:10.:30:14.

David Cameron and Nick Clegg? Not in particular, they didn't think I

:30:14.:30:18.

will smash into this shop because of David Cameron. Of course they

:30:18.:30:23.

didn't. You are saying it was politically motivated. If they had

:30:23.:30:27.

good jobs and in square jobs and if they had -- square jobs and people

:30:27.:30:32.

around them who supported them they would not have rioted. It's it's

:30:32.:30:36.

Conservative Party's fault that those people didn't have a job.

:30:36.:30:46.

The fact they are sending them to to prison for eight years will be a

:30:46.:30:49.

strain on the prison system thesm are forming gangs, as you have

:30:49.:30:54.

heard on the news. The families are getting evicted. Where are you

:30:54.:30:57.

going to put those families? Evicting those problem families

:30:57.:31:02.

will not sort the problem out. member of your family rioted you

:31:02.:31:08.

might lose your social housing, which has happened. What would you

:31:08.:31:13.

do for people who rite rioted? would imprison them I wouldn't give

:31:13.:31:19.

them eight years. What would you give them? Lower than that. Hard to

:31:19.:31:23.

think of a year. Three if they were ringleaders. It will be a huge

:31:23.:31:28.

strain the amount of people they arrested. You said it's a strain on

:31:29.:31:34.

the prison population you would still put them in prison anyway.

:31:34.:31:40.

You accept a message has to be sent? Yes. What rewe are dealing

:31:40.:31:44.

with here is an interference in the judicial system by -- by the

:31:44.:31:50.

political system. I don't think so. I agree. To the lady there, second

:31:50.:31:55.

from back row. Megan's question was on a non-political level bg how can

:31:55.:32:00.

you justify the sentences. How can you just a sentence depending on

:32:00.:32:07.

what is going on in politics? If you want a coherent system when you

:32:07.:32:11.

know what the sentence is people will get for the crimes, you have

:32:11.:32:15.

to know what you will get for doing the crime. The judges listened to

:32:15.:32:20.

what the politicians said. They shouldn't do that? Yeah they should

:32:20.:32:26.

don't that. The lady behind. It has nothing to do with the Big Society

:32:26.:32:32.

and David Cameron's plan. We can't give credit to the rit rioters. It

:32:32.:32:35.

wasn't organised. It was young people stealing Tesco value rice

:32:35.:32:41.

for the fun of it. The sentencing issue is different to the politics

:32:41.:32:46.

and should be dealt with in different ways it's a legal issue

:32:46.:32:50.

sentencing nothing to do with politics. They may have nicked down

:32:50.:32:57.

rice, miss Selfridges was burnt down. It was diverse. The

:32:57.:33:02.

sentencing needs to reflect that. It can't be one long sentence.

:33:02.:33:06.

There were no riots in Scotland. That is not because it's the land

:33:06.:33:11.

of milk and honey and everything is pure. We have plenty of problems.

:33:11.:33:15.

Taking the sentencing point. There can't and shouldn't be inconsistent

:33:15.:33:19.

cyst in sentencing. If Kwasi denies there was any political

:33:19.:33:24.

interference in that, that is ridiculous. You can go with that

:33:24.:33:30.

line of thought if you wish. You have to ask the question, why were

:33:30.:33:36.

people rioting? There were opportune criminals. Our Police

:33:36.:33:39.

Service work with the gangs and work with the young people. They

:33:39.:33:43.

say, if you want to have a life of crime, go on and have a life of

:33:43.:33:48.

crime we will come after you. Here are the opportunities. Here is the

:33:48.:33:54.

Keating. Do people in England have any of that? You are not telling me

:33:54.:34:00.

that people in England were rioting because the educational maintenance

:34:00.:34:07.

was taken away? People didn't riot in Wales, why not? Lots of places

:34:07.:34:11.

in England where there weren't riots. It's to do with community

:34:12.:34:17.

relations and policing and so on. One of the concerns I have about

:34:17.:34:22.

sentencing, a lot of people involved in in this have criminal

:34:22.:34:26.

records and have been in prison. Sending them to prison for longer

:34:26.:34:30.

and longer doesn't work. We need to look at what does work. One of the

:34:30.:34:35.

early speakers talked about pay back to the community, looking at

:34:35.:34:39.

community sentences. I think we should look Mott more at restorive

:34:39.:34:46.

justice making people realise the impact they have had on their

:34:46.:34:49.

community and make improvements to their local. That has been shown to

:34:50.:34:53.

be successful than sending people to prison. Sending people to prison

:34:53.:34:58.

when they are much less likely to get a job at the end of it, their

:34:58.:35:01.

families will be broken down and can't get good housing they will be

:35:01.:35:08.

in a position - A long-term to serve eight years. If you have a

:35:08.:35:15.

criminal record you find it harder to get work and rehabilitate

:35:15.:35:18.

yourself afterwards. Some of the looters were ten years old? There

:35:18.:35:23.

is a big issue with parenting, with educational opportunities. That has

:35:23.:35:26.

been mentioned already. Putting money into deprived areas. There

:35:26.:35:31.

are interesting projects that have been looking - working closely with

:35:31.:35:34.

families and helping the specific families, problem families in an

:35:34.:35:39.

area. We need to do more of that across the UK. Some tweets that

:35:39.:35:48.

have come in. We are live on BBC Three. Our address is: Jemma Fox,

:35:48.:35:54.

sentences are not in proportion with other crimes, maybe the other

:35:54.:36:00.

sentences are wrong. Another one, the sentencing was ridiculous

:36:00.:36:05.

regarding the riots. Everyone knows the prison system in England

:36:05.:36:08.

doesn't work. Another one, sentencing policy has always been

:36:08.:36:16.

to please the public. You are a Liverpool MP. I am, yes. Young as

:36:16.:36:19.

ten? There were lots of young people right across the country.

:36:19.:36:23.

One of the dangers we are falling into is that the government are

:36:23.:36:27.

demonising young people. That is not very helpful. Demonising young

:36:27.:36:35.

people? When have they done that? We heard today from the Justice

:36:35.:36:42.

Secretary about a feral underclass. There are people in my community

:36:42.:36:47.

who joined the clean-up. Jenny picked up on restorive justice.

:36:47.:36:52.

With. We need to look at ways to ensure we have effective

:36:52.:36:55.

rehabilitation. We want to ensure if people commit a crime they are

:36:55.:36:59.

punished for trk it's about how we support those people to make sure

:37:00.:37:03.

they don't commit crimes again. Intervention that is Jenny talked

:37:03.:37:08.

about are being cut down. Whether that is through the Early

:37:08.:37:12.

Intervention Grant, within the justice sector the justice budget

:37:12.:37:18.

cut down by 23%. Those frontline police officers and frontline

:37:18.:37:22.

probation officers and prisoners who are supposed to be there to do

:37:22.:37:27.

that work are already pressed. My fear is what will happen going

:37:27.:37:35.

forward. Another question. Is it time for the UK to leave the dying

:37:35.:37:39.

EU and use the money we save to tackle our economic issues at home

:37:39.:37:46.

Is it time to pull out of the EU altogether. Here we are in Salford

:37:46.:37:51.

down the road from the temperature conference, is it something of an

:37:51.:37:55.

issue at the conference? Let us go to Kwasi? There are big issues

:37:55.:37:58.

about our relationship with the EU, no doubt about it. People on the

:37:58.:38:02.

streets are saying, certainly in my constituency, are saying, what will

:38:02.:38:07.

we do about the EU? That is a discussion we should have. If you

:38:07.:38:10.

look at the eurozone and the greater political intergration we

:38:10.:38:14.

are seeing there, there is a debate to be had in this country about our

:38:14.:38:19.

relationship with the EU. It cost �230 for every household to be in

:38:19.:38:25.

the EU. Is that a good deal? will look at that bien line byeline

:38:25.:38:30.

especially in austerity times as we are now. You don't want to you will

:38:30.:38:34.

pull out altogether but repatriate some powers. Repatriate powers.

:38:34.:38:37.

seems to be a bigger issue for Conservative Party members than it

:38:38.:38:42.

does for the public at large. Why is it such an issue? It's also an

:38:42.:38:48.

issue, this is beared out by older voters, people under 30, 35% of

:38:48.:38:54.

them think, come out of the EU, people over 60, it's 60%. Yes. It

:38:54.:38:57.

is an issue for all the parties certainly within the Conservative

:38:57.:39:01.

Party, you are right - Why are they obsessed with it? I don't think

:39:01.:39:04.

people are obsessed with it. If you look at where we are, in terms of

:39:04.:39:07.

the economy, every country in Europe is cutting back its budget,

:39:07.:39:13.

trying to spend less. The EU is spending more money as an

:39:13.:39:16.

organisation, year-on-year. That can't be rielt right. People have

:39:16.:39:22.

issues. Could we exist outside the EU? That is a big almost a

:39:22.:39:26.

philosophical question. Of course we could exist without the EU. I

:39:26.:39:29.

don't believe - We wouldn't all die? Or the skies would fall in the

:39:29.:39:35.

moment we left. That is not on the table. We should debate and have a

:39:35.:39:40.

discussion about the basis - think we would do. 60% of our trade

:39:40.:39:47.

is with Europe. You could set up a single market. Three million jobs

:39:47.:39:52.

in the UK depend on Europe. They will still trade with us. If we

:39:52.:39:57.

left they wouldn't stop trading with us. Do you think we should

:39:57.:40:02.

pull out of the EU? Gentleman there. Go on. I think the cost is just far

:40:02.:40:06.

too much to justify really. The amount of parliamentary time that

:40:06.:40:11.

is wasted by the EU, the amount of judicial time that is wasted by the

:40:11.:40:17.

UEU is unacceptable. Judges having to refer to the European courts of

:40:17.:40:23.

justice for rulings on what they can and can't do with renches to

:40:23.:40:27.

peoples' crimes or the relationship between The Human Rights Act and

:40:27.:40:31.

the European Convention on Human Rights. It's ridiculous. Why is it?

:40:31.:40:38.

Why don't you like human rights? I have got myself confused there. I

:40:38.:40:42.

prefer sovereignty of the state rather than sovereignty of the

:40:42.:40:45.

European Union. I would prefer our Parliament to be able to do what it

:40:45.:40:50.

thinks is right for the state than what it thinks is right for the EU.

:40:50.:40:57.

Are you a member of the Conservative Party? No. No, I'm not.

:40:57.:41:00.

People always complain about Europe but don't complain about America

:41:00.:41:04.

when you lose sovereignty to America or NATO. They complain

:41:04.:41:11.

about it with Europe, why? What is wrong with Europe? They are going

:41:11.:41:15.

for a Federal system where they want to include as part as one

:41:15.:41:19.

state. I want to correct you on one point the European Convention of

:41:19.:41:23.

human right isn't from the EU that separate. One day the human race is

:41:23.:41:27.

going to become to the part where we have to accept we are a world of

:41:27.:41:33.

one people much we are one planet. I know I sound like a hipy now.

:41:33.:41:39.

sound like John len lon. We will have to get along. The human race

:41:39.:41:46.

will evolve beyond this planet. We will have to get along and live.

:41:46.:41:50.

Ail agains aside - I'm not separate from you. You are not separate from

:41:50.:41:54.

anyone else in the world. You're not that special. You're not that

:41:54.:41:57.

special from the rest of the world. Two points, there one, you are not

:41:57.:42:06.

special. Two, that's it. We just need to get along. Basic logic. Why

:42:06.:42:10.

hasn't any politician thought of that?! The gentleman there at the

:42:10.:42:14.

back. I think it's quite a strange situation that we have really. I

:42:14.:42:21.

mean, obviously, you know, all the countries in Europe being closely

:42:21.:42:24.

intergrated is a good thing because of the history of Europe and the

:42:24.:42:30.

wars and conflicts we had in the past. You might say that is a long

:42:30.:42:33.

time back, Second World War is two or three generations ago. People

:42:33.:42:38.

are still alife live who thought fought in that. Winston Churchill

:42:38.:42:42.

was in favour of a United States of Europe which I'm not personally. I

:42:42.:42:47.

think we have to find a way to work together. I'm not saying there are

:42:47.:42:50.

not problems with the EU, of course there are. It's better overall to

:42:50.:42:57.

work within that, to change it, rather than sitting on the outside

:42:57.:43:02.

- If we pull out there will be another world war? I'm not saying

:43:02.:43:08.

that. Back to the pan el. Stella, you are a business woman. You have

:43:08.:43:12.

done trading with Europe. EU, do we pull out? It's a difficult question.

:43:12.:43:19.

I think, you know, it's very problemic. We are in the situation

:43:20.:43:25.

we are in now and I think to think about pulling out... You know, what

:43:25.:43:29.

are the repercussions of it? Is it something we can really do? I don't

:43:29.:43:33.

know. A lot of polling shows, Wyles it's a big issue for a lot of

:43:33.:43:38.

Conservatives, which it is, for the public at large it's a long way

:43:38.:43:44.

down their list, it comes in number eight behind NHS, education and

:43:44.:43:54.
:43:54.:43:54.

defence. Do you care? I just don't really have an opinion on, it to be

:43:54.:43:59.

honest, do you know what I mean? And... There is nothing wrong with

:43:59.:44:04.

not having an opinion. Yeah, do you know what I mean? I just - I don't

:44:04.:44:08.

have an opinion on it, to be honest. There are a lot of other things

:44:08.:44:12.

that - That might be the problem for the Conservatives. They are

:44:12.:44:16.

going on about it, that is how people think. Given the economic

:44:16.:44:19.

difficulties we have had this issue has become much more important. We

:44:19.:44:23.

are, at the moment, giving Europe a lot of money. When the times were

:44:23.:44:27.

good, people didn't really in the that. Now, people are much more

:44:27.:44:36.

aware of it. Jenny? I agree with Luciana, it would be catastrophic

:44:36.:44:40.

to business and job fs we pulled out of the EU. It's true that we

:44:40.:44:45.

could. We could, but we would lose a huge amount of trade. It's

:44:45.:44:47.

possible for businesss to carry on trade if anything we weren't in the

:44:47.:44:51.

EU. We have huge advantage, we don't have to have tariff barriers.

:44:51.:44:55.

We have a level playing field for British businesses who operate on

:44:55.:44:58.

the same rules as the businesses across the rest of Europe which

:44:58.:45:02.

gives us a massive advantage against people who are not within

:45:02.:45:06.

the European bloc. As a group, the European states are much more

:45:07.:45:11.

powerful. We have much more powerful voice globally as we ever

:45:11.:45:15.

would as individual countries. That is not to be forgotten. It's very

:45:15.:45:20.

important that we make sure that we get good value out of the eurozone,

:45:20.:45:23.

out of the rest of Europe, that we support them and make sure the

:45:23.:45:26.

eurozone and the current crisis doesn't bring down the rest of the

:45:26.:45:31.

Let's move on to another question from David Hughes, a member of

:45:32.:45:35.

Greenpeace. Yesterday George Osborne said we are not saving the

:45:35.:45:41.

planet by cutting our country out of business. Have the Tories back-

:45:41.:45:45.

pedalled on their pledge to become the greenest Government. You guys

:45:45.:45:51.

are all from Greenpeace? Yeah. Thought so. Are you angry, because

:45:51.:45:56.

that was one of the big deals from yesterday's George Osborne's speech.

:45:56.:46:02.

He said we are going to cut emissions no slower and no faster.

:46:02.:46:07.

Are you angry? Before he came in he pledged he would be a green ally

:46:07.:46:11.

and that was one of the the reasons he won votes. He's gone back on

:46:11.:46:15.

that, at the conference it's all come out his opinions. What is

:46:15.:46:19.

wrong with that as a statement, we won't go slower or faster.

:46:19.:46:25.

Shouldn't he be showing leadership. He is going on about innovators and

:46:26.:46:28.

leadership, he is just we will do it how they do it. David Cameron

:46:28.:46:33.

did say this would be the greenest Government when the coalition was

:46:33.:46:36.

formed. Britain's total emissions about 2% of global emissions, China

:46:36.:46:43.

and America together about 40%. George Osborne's point was let's

:46:43.:46:47.

not bankrupt companies or the country when actually we can't make

:46:47.:46:53.

that much difference. We can't save the world because we produce 2% any

:46:53.:46:58.

way? I come back to my point, I don't think it's right to refer to

:46:58.:47:01.

exact figures when it's about setting an example to other

:47:01.:47:05.

countries. The gentleman there. we are only saving a certain amount

:47:05.:47:12.

we should be looking at no why don't we save the world, we should

:47:13.:47:17.

no matter what the cost. It's not just about the savings, it's what

:47:17.:47:22.

you can make. I don't think it's just about the economics. It's our

:47:22.:47:25.

generation that's going to have to pay for the consequences, and our

:47:25.:47:30.

children. What about the money you can make. Scotland as an example,

:47:30.:47:37.

we have climate change targets. 100% of our electricity to be

:47:37.:47:46.

produced, we are a third there. 16,000 jobs in the renewable sector.

:47:47.:47:49.

Mitsubishi investing �100 million. Look at the opportunities. We have

:47:50.:47:54.

the opportunity as a country where we are to be the world leaders in

:47:54.:47:57.

renewable technology. Let's seize that opportunity and be leaders,

:47:57.:48:03.

not fall back and lose that money. APPLAUSE

:48:03.:48:07.

you are a Conservative, what happened to this? No one is going

:48:07.:48:12.

to say we are going to stop being innovators in renewable energy.

:48:12.:48:15.

What George Osborne, the point he was making, was that he is not

:48:15.:48:18.

going to tax British business to try and save the world when we

:48:18.:48:24.

can't save the world. As you said it's only 2%. It's a shift, the

:48:25.:48:28.

point these guys are making, it's a shift. Your Government were going

:48:28.:48:34.

to be the greenest ever, actually let's prioritise... What he said is

:48:34.:48:39.

what we can do will not affect the global picture. We are not going to

:48:39.:48:48.

run... We will give up? We are not. It would extend the logic of his

:48:48.:48:52.

argument. It's not what he meant, that's not what I mean. We are not

:48:52.:48:55.

going to tax British business for the sake of a goal we can't achieve

:48:55.:49:01.

ourselves. OK. You are a shadow Minister for energy and climate

:49:01.:49:08.

change. Yes, I am. Firstly, it's 2% but it's also, that doesn't include

:49:08.:49:11.

our imports so there's more emissions we generate from

:49:11.:49:14.

importing things from other countries. It's not just it's a

:49:14.:49:17.

moral obligation, I think that we need to play our role, this

:49:17.:49:20.

Government should be showing leadership as we previously did

:49:20.:49:24.

under the last Government. Ed Miliband and the work he did in

:49:24.:49:26.

Copenhagen was held by the Green groups and businesses as well.

:49:26.:49:30.

Actually it's the opportunity and the fact is that within, the

:49:30.:49:33.

transition from a high carbon to low carbon economy could create

:49:33.:49:37.

hundreds and thousands of jobs across the UK and we are already

:49:37.:49:40.

seeing companies going to other countries like Germany and China

:49:40.:49:43.

where there is the opportunity and they are making the investment in

:49:43.:49:47.

low carbon technologies in infrastructure for charging for

:49:47.:49:52.

cars, and if we don't - it's a tragedy this Government is letting

:49:52.:49:57.

down the country on making that investment. Because of the

:49:57.:50:02.

challenges... What George Osborne said yesterday is a tragedy? Yes.

:50:02.:50:05.

don't think this is what's happening. I would be disappointed

:50:05.:50:10.

if it was going to happen because the potential is phenomenonal. We

:50:10.:50:13.

have, this is one of the windiest countries in the world, we have

:50:13.:50:17.

huge tidal ranges. There's potential for renewable

:50:17.:50:21.

technologies and it can generate hundreds of jobs and the Government

:50:21.:50:25.

is investing in significantly in this area. We are going to be

:50:25.:50:30.

creating 1,000 apprentices in renewables and with the green new

:50:30.:50:34.

deal it's generating 100,000 new jobs. It might not be enough, but

:50:34.:50:39.

it's not saying, at least let's say we are not doing anything. Some Lib

:50:39.:50:42.

Dems must have been uncomfortable with what George Osborne said.

:50:42.:50:47.

have to confess I am one of them, I don't agree with the idea that it's

:50:47.:50:50.

either or. You don't have to be either friendly or good for the

:50:50.:50:52.

sraoeur. Being good for the environment and investing in that

:50:52.:50:56.

can be good for business as well. come back on that. We are going to

:50:56.:51:01.

move on to one more topic. We covered that. Let's go on to Mark

:51:01.:51:06.

Scarborough. Should Britain follow Denmark's example and impose a fat

:51:06.:51:13.

tax to help tackle obesity? LAUGHTER. A fat tax? This has been

:51:13.:51:23.
:51:23.:51:23.

brought in, in Denmark. The tax is on food with more than 2.3%

:51:23.:51:27.

saturated fat. It costs the NHS �4.2 billion a year of obesity at

:51:27.:51:37.
:51:37.:51:38.

the moment. Recently I read this it's 1.00am pwhrapbs service

:51:38.:51:46.

service --am pwhrapbs service had to buy new ambulances. Should we

:51:46.:51:53.

bring in a fat tax? I am a student nurse and I deal with an awful lot

:51:53.:51:57.

of people who are suffering really significant health problems because

:51:57.:52:01.

of their weight and because of their lifestyle. What I found from

:52:01.:52:06.

talking to them is that people don't realise the effects that

:52:06.:52:09.

being overweight can have on you. Everyone knows you can have a heart

:52:09.:52:13.

attack and join problems but they don't realise the effect on other

:52:13.:52:17.

bits of your body, increasing chances of cancer and respiratory

:52:17.:52:22.

problems. The answer is not to change the affordability of food or

:52:22.:52:26.

the sraeupblt of -- availability of food but is to paint a realistic

:52:26.:52:31.

picture of what a lifetime of obesity can do to you. If you make

:52:31.:52:35.

the food more expensive fewer people will buy it and eat it.

:52:36.:52:39.

depends entirely on your income. If that was the case you would see a

:52:39.:52:43.

return to diseases of lifestyle which diabetes used to be but isn't

:52:43.:52:47.

any more. Who thinks it's a good idea? Put your hands up if you

:52:47.:52:53.

think we should have a fat tax? The gentleman in the front row from

:52:53.:52:58.

Greenpeace. Well, smokers generate more money than the NHS spends on

:52:58.:53:04.

treating them, surely they could do the same with fatty foods.

:53:04.:53:09.

should turn a profit out of people's obesity? Not turn a profit,

:53:09.:53:15.

but we should bring down smoking tax a little bit, but relative tax.

:53:15.:53:21.

Speech Debelle, what do you think? I think investing in food education

:53:21.:53:28.

would probably be a better idea. I notice there's a lot of people that

:53:28.:53:33.

seem to be overweight and from having conversations with them

:53:33.:53:37.

about food they don't actually know about food groups and which are the

:53:37.:53:41.

right types of food to eat and which are not the right type to eat.

:53:42.:53:49.

That's food education and I don't think that as much TV programmes

:53:49.:53:53.

and we have, you can see different fat from different angles and stuff

:53:53.:53:57.

or their bones, that doesn't seem to be working. Talking about those

:53:57.:54:02.

programmes and it's just entertainment. I think food

:54:02.:54:08.

education, you know the programme I am talking about? OK. What the

:54:08.:54:12.

nurse is saying at the back of the room as well, we are, I believe,

:54:12.:54:17.

the fattest nation in Europe, the fattest nation in Europe.

:54:17.:54:20.

Something's got to be done, tax? The distinction between smoking and

:54:20.:54:23.

eating is you choose to smoke, whereas you have to eat. We have to

:54:23.:54:28.

be careful not to punish families... You don't have to eat really fat

:54:28.:54:34.

food? The challenge is it's cheap tore buy food with more fat --

:54:34.:54:37.

cheaper to buy food with fat. We have to make sure we can't put a

:54:37.:54:44.

tax on people that can't afford the food that they get. APPLAUSE.

:54:44.:54:48.

I am not sure I would go the whole hog, as it were, to go for a fat

:54:48.:54:51.

tax. But I understand that people have to take responsibility for

:54:52.:54:57.

their own choices and you can't endlessly bail people out if they

:54:57.:55:02.

just keep doing the wrong things. So having a fat tax is saying well

:55:02.:55:05.

actually, if you are going to buy this food you have to pay extra.

:55:05.:55:09.

it's a good idea. I think the principle is a fair one, not sure I

:55:09.:55:12.

would bring it into this country, I don't think it's right but I

:55:12.:55:18.

understand... How can it be a good principle and not right? I think

:55:18.:55:21.

the idea of making people responsible for their own actions

:55:21.:55:29.

is a good one. It's not just fat people that buy fattening foods, so

:55:29.:55:32.

if you put a fat tax on a chocolate bar it's not just fat people that

:55:33.:55:38.

are going to eat chocolate. I think it's a - it punishes everyone for a

:55:38.:55:42.

minority or even a majority's decisions and at the same time I

:55:42.:55:47.

can see the logic in it and it's better than investing in things

:55:47.:55:51.

that don't teach people anything. Stella? What it might do is just

:55:51.:55:54.

make people think about what they're actually eating, which is

:55:54.:55:57.

what you are trying to say. Whether it's the best way of doing it or

:55:57.:56:03.

not I don't know. Glasgow, the place is associated with fried Mars

:56:03.:56:07.

bars, but I agree in this time of austerity it's not a good idea,

:56:07.:56:17.
:56:17.:56:18.

though more in food education certainly would be welcome. That is

:56:18.:56:22.

it for this edition of Young Voters' Question Time. Thank you

:56:22.:56:29.

very much to the panel and thank you to our audience. Thank you! And

:56:29.:56:32.

thank you to those of you who joined in on Twitter. I am back

:56:32.:56:35.

with a new show from 17th October, it's about unemployment, it's about

:56:35.:56:41.

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