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Welcome to Edinburgh, where the Church of Scotland is | 0:00:03 | 0:00:05 | |
holding its Annual General Assembly, bringing together representatives, | 0:00:05 | 0:00:09 | |
commissioners, from right across the country and, | 0:00:09 | 0:00:12 | |
indeed, around the world to debate and vote on issues of the day. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:17 | |
The Assembly has been meeting here for almost 90 years. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
Today, despite appearances, the Church of Scotland is very | 0:00:31 | 0:00:36 | |
much open for business. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
Since this is the national church for Scotland, | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
the British sovereign is always represented. | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
This year, Her Majesty's High Commissioner is Princess Anne. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:49 | |
I have been reminded by obviously a very good brief, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
and somebody who's been digging around in the archives, | 0:01:14 | 0:01:19 | |
that my very first visit to the General Assembly | 0:01:19 | 0:01:24 | |
of the Church of Scotland was probably long before most of you... | 0:01:24 | 0:01:29 | |
LAUGHTER. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
..were here. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
I was only 18 and I accompanied Her Majesty and the Duke | 0:01:35 | 0:01:37 | |
of Edinburgh in 1969. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
So I feel I have some perspective. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:44 | |
Longevity, if nothing else. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:47 | |
But I also understand in that time that there has been a huge | 0:01:47 | 0:01:51 | |
increase in expectation, an expectation of the role | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
of the Church in the community, of what you do, but I also feel that | 0:01:55 | 0:02:03 | |
expectations should not exceed the ability to provide. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
Care and commitment to care, more than bricks and mortar or online | 0:02:07 | 0:02:12 | |
computer programmes and apps. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:17 | |
That is what you provide, that personal knowledge, | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
understanding and commitment of your time. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
And there needs to be space for that. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
And the importance of the General Assembly, above all, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:33 | |
it's been reasoned debate. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
And that reasoned debate is in quite short supply at the moment, | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
and more and more will look to you to continue | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
to do exactly that. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:47 | |
Your Grace has a wonderful record of public service and, | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
if I may say so, particularly here in Scotland, where your | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
presence and support in a slightly larger stadium to the west | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
of this building... | 0:02:57 | 0:02:58 | |
LAUGHTER. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
Brings much hope to our country. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:02 | |
LAUGHTER. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:04 | |
The retiring moderator, Russell Barr, spoke | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
about what he had learned during his year in office. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:15 | |
Standing here today, I could not be more proud to be | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
a minister, to be a member, to belong to the Church of Scotland. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:27 | |
One council Chief Executive thanked me for the support local | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
congregations in his area had given to the refugees from Syria. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:35 | |
Your churches - as though they were mine - | 0:03:35 | 0:03:37 | |
your churches are remarkable, he told me. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:41 | |
"If there is a problem, it takes me 20 e-mails, | 0:03:41 | 0:03:46 | |
"30 telephone calls and 20 weeks to resolve it. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:48 | |
"When I contact one of your ministers, the latest it was fixed | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
"was six o'clock that evening." | 0:03:51 | 0:03:56 | |
And although, for obvious reasons, there was no publicity around it | 0:03:56 | 0:03:58 | |
when we met with Syrian families, families who had come to Scotland | 0:03:58 | 0:04:03 | |
from Lebanese refugee camps, they spoke with amazement | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
on the ways in which they had been welcomed. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:11 | |
"You Christian people have not just opened your country", | 0:04:11 | 0:04:21 | |
one man told me, "You have opened your homes. | 0:04:21 | 0:04:23 | |
"You've opened your hearts. | 0:04:23 | 0:04:24 | |
"How can we ever thank you? | 0:04:24 | 0:04:28 | |
He then turned to his theme of the year, homelessness. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
As of September last, 5,751 preschool and school-age | 0:04:32 | 0:04:39 | |
children were registered in our country as homeless - | 0:04:39 | 0:04:45 | |
an increase of 17% from the previous year. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:52 | |
You will not see these children sleeping rough, | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
although we all see the numbers of people sleeping rough on our | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
streets is steadily increasing, these children and their families | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
are in temporary accommodation, and the length of time | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
they are spending in temporary accommodation increases | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
year-on-year. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
24 weeks in 2016, 23 weeks and 18 weeks in the previous two years. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:18 | |
5,751 preschool and school-age children, and at what cost? | 0:05:18 | 0:05:26 | |
At what cost to their education? | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
At what cost to their health? | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
At what cost to their sense of well-being? | 0:05:32 | 0:05:34 | |
At what cost to our nation? | 0:05:34 | 0:05:39 | |
The Church of Scotland has been with us since the 16th century and, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
from the Reformation on, reform itself has been | 0:05:53 | 0:05:55 | |
a constant theme. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:57 | |
The 21st century is continuing that tradition. | 0:05:57 | 0:06:02 | |
Sometimes it seems as though the only thing we ever report | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
on from the General Assembly is same-sex relationships. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
First of all, it was the specifics - the rights and wrongs | 0:06:08 | 0:06:12 | |
of Aberdeen Presbytery inducting a minister in a same-sex | 0:06:12 | 0:06:14 | |
relationship. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
Then it moved to the general - how should the Church deal | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
with ministers in civil partnerships and accommodate those who felt | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
that this was fundamentally wrong? | 0:06:24 | 0:06:26 | |
And then, just as they'd resolved that, the Scottish Government | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
introduced same-sex marriage. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:32 | |
How should the Church deal with ministers | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
in a same-sex marriage? | 0:06:34 | 0:06:36 | |
And then, the big one - what should the Church do | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
about marrying people in a same-sex relationship? | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
The Theological Forum, a small team of expert theologians, | 0:06:42 | 0:06:47 | |
has been looking into the question of what marriage is, | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
and the debate about its report on Thursday will once again | 0:06:51 | 0:06:54 | |
hit the headlines. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
It's been being chaired by a former moderator, | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
Professor Iain Torrance. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
We caught up with him in the Scottish National Portrait Gallery, | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
looking at a painting of the marriage | 0:07:05 | 0:07:06 | |
of the old pretender. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
What you'll see is that it is very much the bishop marrying them. | 0:07:14 | 0:07:17 | |
And that's different from the Protestant tradition. | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
In the Protestant tradition, the couple marry each other | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
by dint of their exchange of vows, willingly given. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:29 | |
Marriage as a human relationship has changed constantly over the years, | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
and what matters is the support which each partner brings | 0:07:34 | 0:07:39 | |
to the other and receives in return, the faithfulness between them, | 0:07:39 | 0:07:44 | |
and how they can make an impact on the society through that love | 0:07:44 | 0:07:50 | |
which they have for each other, and that love then reaches out | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
and they can then bestow that love, that energy | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
on the people around them. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
Professor Torrance argues that marriage has been based | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
on an Old Testament idea, that our role in life | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
is to bring about God's kingdom by having children. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
When one reads the accounts in Genesis, you have an account | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
of Adam created in the image of God and being in the image of God | 0:08:18 | 0:08:24 | |
was to procreate, procreate. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:29 | |
And, in that sense, that stage of our Christian journey, | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
you propagated the kingdom of God by having children. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:39 | |
The promise that your descendants will be as many | 0:08:39 | 0:08:44 | |
as the sands of the seashore. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
That is the promise of how the kingdom comes in. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
But today, he argues, there's more to marriage | 0:08:52 | 0:08:54 | |
than just having children. | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
In the New Testament, we see that our main purpose | 0:08:57 | 0:08:59 | |
is to bring in God's kingdom by the strength of our | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
human relationships, which are based on having | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
a relationship with Christ. | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
As we think about it now, and we think of who Jesus is, | 0:09:07 | 0:09:12 | |
Christians now increase through being joined to Jesus, | 0:09:12 | 0:09:19 | |
not through having children and increasing the kingdom | 0:09:19 | 0:09:23 | |
in that way. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:25 | |
And so what we are seeing actually, what this report suggests, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
is that there is a shift. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
It shouldn't be seen as an argument between homosexual and heterosexual | 0:09:31 | 0:09:38 | |
but as being procreative and non-procreative, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:43 | |
that there is nothing wrong with a non-procreative union. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:47 | |
But not all former moderators agree. | 0:09:47 | 0:09:50 | |
One previous Free Church moderator is Dundee-based David Robertson. | 0:09:53 | 0:09:58 | |
I think the most disturbing part of the report is where it | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
seems to imply that, in the New Testament, | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
there is a difference to the Old Testament, | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
the Old Testament on procreation and marriage, and in | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
the New Testament that's not the case. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:11 | |
One, that's a completely novel interpretation which has never been | 0:10:11 | 0:10:19 | |
known up until today, so I suspect it's not right. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:21 | |
And the other is, it doesn't make any sense. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
What it does is it takes the Church of Scotland away | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
from the Bible and also away from the Catholic Church, | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
the Orthodox Church, the vast majority of the Protestant | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
Church throughout the ages. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:32 | |
I think it's at best disingenuous and it will end up | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
being incredibly harmful. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:36 | |
We have had this argument now for 25, 30 years, | 0:10:36 | 0:10:42 | |
and this argument is not confined to the Church of Scotland. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
It's in all of the major churches, different forms of this argument. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:52 | |
Now, we recognise that these are deeply rooted ways, | 0:10:52 | 0:10:57 | |
different ways in reading scripture, and that goes back to the time | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
of the Reformation. | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
And those patterns of reading scripture are not going | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
to vanish overnight. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:08 | |
They will continue. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
And we have come to the view now that, rather than try to look | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
for a knockout blow on either side, a single victory for one side | 0:11:14 | 0:11:20 | |
or the other in this long argument, we actually have to find a way | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
in which we have space for both sides, and we can respect both sides | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
and allow each side to develop in a non-adversarial way. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:37 | |
Over the past ten years, we keep hearing this | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
stuff about a middle way. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
Well, I'm a bit mischievous sometimes, because I think | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
of the proverb, man who walks in middle of road gets hit by bus. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:48 | |
I'm not sure if that is a proverb, but it'll do. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
I think the problem is that there isn't a middle way. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
The middle way doesn't exist. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
If the Church of Scotland chooses to go for same-sex marriage, | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
they can't then say there is a middle way whereby we don't go | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
for same-sex marriage, so there is no middle way. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
And that's the problem. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:08 | |
Try as it might, the Church of Scotland has not yet managed | 0:12:08 | 0:12:11 | |
to find a way to reconcile strongly-held conflicting opinions. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:16 | |
The conservatives accuse the liberals are shifting | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
their views to suit the spirit of the age. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
Have people shifted their views and, if so, why? | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
Sarah Lane Ritchie is a student at Edinburgh University, studying | 0:12:27 | 0:12:29 | |
for a PHD in science and religion. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:34 | |
She's a member of the Theological Forum, which produced the report. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
I actually come from a very conservative background in Michigan | 0:12:39 | 0:12:42 | |
in the United States. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:44 | |
I grew up in what I would call a fundamentalist church, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
and in that congregation, and basically within my whole social | 0:12:48 | 0:12:53 | |
group there were no options for examining or understanding gay | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
marriage outside of what was portrayed as being the biblical | 0:12:57 | 0:13:01 | |
deal, which is one man, one woman, married for life. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
In my university days, I pursued philosophy, religion, | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
theology and also biology and psychology, and I started | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
learning a lot more about understanding and interpreting | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
the Scripture, understanding and interpreting tradition | 0:13:15 | 0:13:17 | |
and the role that tradition plays in the way that we understand | 0:13:17 | 0:13:20 | |
marriage, learning about what marriage has meant throughout | 0:13:20 | 0:13:22 | |
the ages, and I started gradually coming to a much more expansive | 0:13:22 | 0:13:25 | |
position of what marriage could be. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
I was also very, very close with some gay and lesbian couples | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
here, and they were actually in full-time ministry, | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
and for me it was very impactful to see the way that their marriages | 0:13:37 | 0:13:42 | |
and their lives in ministry unfolded, and that they experienced | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
all the same ups and downs that any marriage would experience. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:51 | |
In the Bible, we find relationships between people of the same sex | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
celebrated as great friendships, as almost covenants or partnerships | 0:13:54 | 0:14:00 | |
in some ways, but not with any indication that sex is involved and, | 0:14:00 | 0:14:04 | |
in our sex-obsessed society, we are saying that we can't | 0:14:04 | 0:14:08 | |
have deep, meaningful, admitted friendships | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
and partnerships without sex. | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
I would be really sorry if the Church wasn't able to say | 0:14:15 | 0:14:18 | |
that there are ways of celebrating partnership, friendship, | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
commitment without it having to be a sexual relationship. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:26 | |
The way that I've always thought to teach and preach on the Bible | 0:14:26 | 0:14:31 | |
is to take it into its context and then, from its context, | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
into our own context today, to discover what it is that God | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
said, then why it was said then, in the context of the peoples | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
to whom it was said and in the context of the whole | 0:14:42 | 0:14:46 | |
of the word of God and how that then applies to us today. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:51 | |
But there's a lot in the report I have a concern about. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
I'm concerned about the way that conservatives are portrayed | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
in a very simplistic manner - | 0:14:58 | 0:15:05 | |
as if we just kind of open the book, see what it reads and that's it. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
With all due respect, I would say that that's not the case. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
I understand that sentiment because the report is moving | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
in a more progressive direction, but if you look over the reports | 0:15:14 | 0:15:18 | |
that have come out of various committees in the Church of Scotland | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
over the past decades, really, you'll see that the various | 0:15:20 | 0:15:25 | |
conservative positions have been examined in detail, | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
different components of them, mostly focused on issues | 0:15:29 | 0:15:33 | |
of biblical interpretation. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
And the first bit of our report actually does outline the different | 0:15:35 | 0:15:39 | |
ways that the Bible has been interpreted on the | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
issue of marriage. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
And the goal of this report is to shift the conversation | 0:15:44 | 0:15:46 | |
into a slightly different direction, and to get beyond the old | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
terms of the debate. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
Meanwhile, there's a feeling in the Church that far too much time | 0:15:55 | 0:15:58 | |
and energy is being spent on discussing same-sex relationships | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
and what's really needed is some thinking about how the Church should | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
reform itself to plan for the future. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
I think there is an urgent need for reform at various levels | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
within the Church of Scotland. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:12 | |
These are very challenging times, and we have an ageing | 0:16:12 | 0:16:15 | |
and a declining church. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
That's not news to anyone. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:20 | |
But there are some particular triggers for reform at the moment, | 0:16:20 | 0:16:24 | |
which include a very worrying decline in the number | 0:16:24 | 0:16:28 | |
of ministers coming forward, and we are going to need to work out | 0:16:28 | 0:16:33 | |
ways to respond to that and to cope with that. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
This is Grantown-on-Spey. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
It's in the Presbytery of Abernethy, which runs all the way down the A9 | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
to Aviemore and Newtonmore and up the hill over there to Tomintoul. | 0:16:58 | 0:17:04 | |
There are 11 parishes here, grouped into six charges, | 0:17:04 | 0:17:08 | |
and there's just four ministers. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
Two years ago, Gordon Strang came with his family to be | 0:17:15 | 0:17:18 | |
a minister in Grantown. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
He's got three churches to look after and he is also managing | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
the vacancy in Tomintoul. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
We have this enormous area to cover with not that many people, | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
but we are aware that the problem of ministers and the number | 0:17:32 | 0:17:41 | |
of people that we can have in these roles is going to decrease, | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
but at the same time we want to keep lots of individual | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
village churches open, because we are aware that each | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
of these buildings are important for the places that they serve. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:54 | |
They may be the last public buildings left, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:56 | |
so they have an important place. | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
But how do we do that at the same time with a sense | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
that we want to reach out to the people of the area, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:04 | |
we want to grow and tell a story to folks that haven't | 0:18:04 | 0:18:08 | |
heard it before? | 0:18:08 | 0:18:10 | |
In the parish of Cromdale, the pub, the school and the post | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
office have all gone. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
But an active group of Christian Aid supporters, faced with the challenge | 0:18:18 | 0:18:22 | |
of not enough people to do the annual door-to-door collection, | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
came up with a new way of using the church. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:29 | |
We had the envelopes we'd been doing for years to collect | 0:18:31 | 0:18:33 | |
the Christian Aid all around the area in the parish, | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
but we have a very rural, dispersed parish and it was becoming | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
harder and harder to go and do the door-to-door, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
so the idea came first of all to do afternoon teas but then to take it | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
on and do lunches as well and open the place up. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
And now we get lots of folk coming in from the wider area, | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
folks coming past on holiday, people walking past the front door | 0:18:51 | 0:18:54 | |
on the Speyside Way, so we have a whole range of folk | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
that come in and we are able now to tell Christian Aid's story | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
to a much bigger group of people than we might ever have | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
done before and raise lots of money in the process. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
There's this space here that nobody sits in. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:19 | |
Having the place used again is going to be better, | 0:19:19 | 0:19:22 | |
because we can't afford to have this great big building not being used. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:27 | |
Back in Grantown, Gordon and his elders are contemplating what to do | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
with a much bigger building. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
It's 130 years old and it seats 450 people. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
It costs ?7,000 a year to heat, just for Sundays and funerals. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:42 | |
We have this building that we've inherited from the past | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
that is a wonderful witness to the town. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
It's been a place of worship for 130 years. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:50 | |
But our vision is that we open it up and make it alive and active | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
and vibrant once more. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
We can't afford to have a building like that for just an hour a week, | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
effectively, so we hope that we can use some of the best | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
of it, the acoustics, a great concert venue, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
one of the biggest venues for that sort of thing in the Strath and, | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
at the same time, open it up so that we can use it for so much | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
more and have a place that people really feel that they can belong | 0:20:14 | 0:20:17 | |
and come to and something that's alive every day of the week. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:22 | |
If we keep doing what we've always done, which is create bigger | 0:20:22 | 0:20:24 | |
and bigger units for a single minister to minister to, eventually, | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
we will probably be only looking at perhaps two ministers | 0:20:27 | 0:20:32 | |
for the whole of this presbytery. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:33 | |
If the rate in decline of ministry, full-time ordained ministry, | 0:20:33 | 0:20:38 | |
if that continues, then there won't be enough of us. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
But that's a very negative way of looking at it. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
The advantage of team ministry is that you can pool different | 0:20:45 | 0:20:48 | |
skills together so that, rather than having one | 0:20:48 | 0:20:50 | |
person who is meant to be an expert in everything, | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
you can have different skills available, people who are gifted | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
in youth and family ministry, others that have a pastoral heart, | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
others where preaching is their main thing, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
so different skills and they can come together and we can serve | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
this sort of an area, I hope, in a better way, a way | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
that we can reach out and do more, rather than forcing people in single | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
minister charges that get forever bigger and are | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
unworkable eventually. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
Well, there is a present shortage of ministers | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
and a fairly small congregation. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
It's not always easy to find a minister at all. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:28 | |
We have one or two lengthy vacancies, although not nearly | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
as lengthy as some further north. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:34 | |
Caithness, for example, has some lasting for several years. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
But it's not easy. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:39 | |
And we are trying to grapple with this with the new presbytery | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
plan, which reduces the expected number of ministers and tries | 0:21:42 | 0:21:47 | |
to involve far more people. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
But what about the top end of the Church's administration, | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
or the committees taking people from all over for | 0:21:53 | 0:21:55 | |
meetings in Edinburgh? | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
And then there is the Assembly itself. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
Do you think we are overwedded to the democracy that we have | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
in Presbyterianism? | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
I think the democratic character of Presbyterianism is something | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
which may still be an asset for the future. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
At its best, it invites a wide range of people to come in and to be | 0:22:11 | 0:22:18 | |
involved in making decisions about the future of the Church, | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
and it helps them to gain skills, hopefully skills of compromise, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
of decision-making, so historically Presbyterianism, I think, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:31 | |
empowered lots of people, whereas today one of the problems | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
is I think that we are now top-heavy, and people | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
are experiencing maintaining the system as too burdensome. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:43 | |
There are only so many meetings I can share. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
There are only so many miles I can drive. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:48 | |
And I was called to be a parish minister to be alongside people | 0:22:48 | 0:22:52 | |
and perhaps not be doing those sorts of administrative things | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
that the structure makes me do. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:57 | |
We need new structures if we're going to minister to Scotland | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
in the 21st century. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:02 | |
And the urgent need for practical changes to how the Church continues | 0:23:08 | 0:23:10 | |
to be able to serve the community, in the manner we saw praised | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
by the Princess Royal, was addressed by the Council | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
of Assembly, whose report or deliverance was presented | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
to Assembly by its convener. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
The Council of Assembly is mandated to deal with the Kirk | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
staffing and finances. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:30 | |
Sally Bonnar's report's statistics were sobering. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:34 | |
For instance, a 30% drop in Kirk membership over | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
a recent 10-year period, during which time over 75% | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
of ministers were aged over 50. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:45 | |
Sally Bonnar could have been a Jeremiah, but she wasn't. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
We also see congregational statistics which show | 0:23:50 | 0:23:52 | |
a steeply falling pattern, and early indications are that this | 0:23:52 | 0:23:57 | |
is now having an effect on income. | 0:23:57 | 0:23:59 | |
For the first time, we see a fall in congregational giving. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
This is not unexpected. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
In fact, we have often said that we are surprised that giving | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
has held up so well. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
However, it seems that we have now reached a tipping point and, | 0:24:10 | 0:24:14 | |
if current membership trends continue, then the decrease | 0:24:14 | 0:24:18 | |
in income is likely to become a repeated feature of these reports. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:23 | |
This emphasises the need for the strategic planning process | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
that we are currently undertaking. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:28 | |
The Church has a very complex budget and we spend our money across a wide | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
range of activities. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:35 | |
We cannot continue taking on new work without stopping some of | 0:24:35 | 0:24:39 | |
the things we are currently doing. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:42 | |
Hence we need to decide, what new things will we do? | 0:24:42 | 0:24:46 | |
What needs to be kept? | 0:24:46 | 0:24:48 | |
And what do we stop? | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
Looking to the future as a national church, | 0:24:51 | 0:24:53 | |
we will be doing less with fewer resources. | 0:24:53 | 0:24:56 | |
I was very struck by the message from Archbishop Justin Welby | 0:24:56 | 0:25:00 | |
at his presentation last year, when he spoke about the need | 0:25:00 | 0:25:04 | |
for Christian unity. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
As Christ has said, a house divided against itself will not stand. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:12 | |
So let us set aside our differences and go forward together | 0:25:12 | 0:25:17 | |
in the building of Christ's kingdom. | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
So, can the Kirk do more with less, do less better? | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
We will be hearing a lot about change throughout this week | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
and we'll report on that next Sunday. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:41 | |
Before we go, let me give you a taste of a series of lectures | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
given earlier this year by the Reverend Doug Gay, | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
who we saw a few minutes ago, which previewed events here. | 0:25:47 | 0:25:51 | |
Doug Gay does not pull his punches. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:55 | |
I believe that a true spiritual renewal involves a holistic renewal | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
of our Christian witness. | 0:25:58 | 0:26:01 | |
Which is why we need to test the spirit. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:05 | |
When people want to talk of revival or renewal, | 0:26:05 | 0:26:08 | |
it is not true revival if people are anguished about micro-ethics | 0:26:08 | 0:26:14 | |
but shed no tears over macro-ethics. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:18 | |
If they care about temperance but not about Trident. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
It's not true revival if men lament their lust for women | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
but not their sexism. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
It's not true revival if people speak in strange tongues but do not | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
speak out against injustice and speak up for the poor. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:35 | |
It's not true revival if people throw their fiddles on the fire, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:39 | |
if they create an unbridgeable cultural gap between | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
ceilidh and congregation. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
It is not a true spiritual renewal if it makes us less human, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:49 | |
less alive, less loving, less merciful, less open to art | 0:26:49 | 0:26:54 | |
and beauty and sensuality and life. | 0:26:54 | 0:27:00 | |
I can already hear some people out there reaching for the green ink. | 0:27:00 | 0:27:05 | |
Everything does depend upon the prayer, come Holy Spirit. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:12 | |
I will say even less about liturgical renewal, just this, | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
that, in a broad Church, I believe it will and must | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
take different forms. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
For some, it will come through classical music | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
and finely crafted liturgy. | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
For some, it will come through Messy Church and Matt Redman. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:28 | |
For some, it will come through a renewal of intense | 0:27:28 | 0:27:32 | |
and passionate expository preaching. | 0:27:32 | 0:27:34 | |
For some, it will come through exploring gifts of the spirit. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
For some, it will come through Rend Collective, | 0:27:37 | 0:27:39 | |
through others it will come through the Iona Community. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:43 | |
We are a diverse church. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:45 | |
God's tastes are wider than mine. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:50 | |
As a reformed Church, what all of you should share | 0:27:51 | 0:27:53 | |
is a deep attentiveness to scripture, to hearing God's word. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:58 | |
And what I dare to hope you also share is a more frequent celebration | 0:27:58 | 0:28:02 | |
of the Lord's suffering. | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
And, when that renewal comes, it will move us on from the dull | 0:28:05 | 0:28:09 | |
mediocrity of middle of the road traditionalism, from joyless | 0:28:09 | 0:28:14 | |
formalism, from trite pietism, from funereal communions, | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
from boring sermons, from musical snobbery, | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
from liturgical correctness and from liturgical sloppiness, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:27 | |
from evangelical privatisation of the gospel and from liberal | 0:28:27 | 0:28:32 | |
progressivist reduction of the Gospel to social ethics. | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
I could go on. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:38 | |
But I won't. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:39 | |
That's another lecture, another book and another rant. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
Did you hear that? | 0:28:42 | 0:28:43 | |
He said, when that renewal comes. | 0:28:43 | 0:28:45 | |
The Kirk may be bloodied. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
It is not bowed. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:50 | |
We'll see you next Sunday. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:54 | |
# Oh come, and let us worship him | 0:28:54 | 0:29:04 | |
A case unprecedented in British criminal history. | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
The killings have stunned this family-orientated community. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:31 | |
Everybody wanted to see somebody go to prison for it. | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
One has to have faith that the jury came to the right view. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:40 | |
You're looking at a case with 2016 eyes. | 0:29:40 | 0:29:44 |