Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live

We've been given new frefdz a charity showing horrific cases of a

hate crime against Muslims. But whose to blame? A week when the

papers are full of Islamist terrorism, we ask, is the media

Good morning. I'm Samira Ahmed. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. A

report from a help line claim Muslims, particularly women, are

being attacked and abused on our streets. Is this simple racism or

is the media stoking Islamophobia? The Government has announced it's

cutting 20,000 troops. Is it time the military shared the pain of the

budget cuts? Or is this betraying the men and women who risk their

lives for our country? A mother hit the headlines because

she bought breast implants for her daughters. Have we become addicted

to cosmetic surgery? Later we'll talk to a woman who's had dozens of

procedures done. My guests this week are Dame Ann Leslie, she's

reported on the Berlin Wall coming down and the release of Nelson man

Dell ya. She was proposed to by James May son and flashed at by sal

I have dor Dalai. Shafr Shafiq runs a Muslim youth -- Mohammed Shafiq

runs a Muslim youth charity. And Symon Hill is the associate

director of the Christian think tank Ekklesia. He's been hailed as

a hero for his campaigns against the arms trade. Call in now to

challenge our guests on Skype. Give views on triter or by phones. --

The help line Tell Mama says Muslims are Viscount Nelson lented

assaulted because of their face -- are being violented assaulted

because of their faith. What is the cause? Is it down to a lack of

integration or is the media fuelling hatred?

This weekend marks the anniversary of the July 7th terrorist attacks

that shook London. They triggered a wave of anti-Muslim feeling around

the UK. But seven years on, has anything changed? Figures to be

officially released tomorrow by a Government-backed help line suggest

regular, violent harassment of Muslims is taking place. The help

line recorded 140 serious attacks in the last five months, three

quarters against women, ranging from online abuse to physical

violence, such as pulling off veils. They say a third of the attacks

were carried out by supporters of the BNP or EDL. So what is fuelling

these attacks? Many Muslim organisations point the finger at

the media. They say Muslims, as a group r, only seen in a negative

light, with the papers full of stories about potential terrorist

plots. Muslims say this stirs up violence and hatred against them.

Most journalists say they are only reporting the facts and they're not

responsible for the actions of a few racists. Many politicians are

concerned about Muslim segregation in some parts of Britain. Could

that be leading to resentment and violence? So is our media to blame

for encouraging Islamophobia? Or is that just an excuse for mindless

racism? It is just a few mindless racist, isn't it, it's not the

media's fault? No, the media has responsibility when it comes to

reporting these issues. It's not about facts. If you look at the

Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008, we heard every single newspaper in

the aftermath, the day after, reporting that British Muslims were

involved. Less than ten hours later, it was the other way. There was no

single British Muslim involved. No apologies, no retractions and a

whole community demonised. The media have a huge role to play. I

think they've got a responsible position on this. That is the

question for our vote. Is the media stirring up hatred of Muslims here?

If you think it is text the word vote followed by yes or vote

followed by no. The number is 81771. This week, you can vote online on

We'll show you how you voted at the end of the programme. We know

stories like the example of the Mumbai attacks, there is a problem

in reporting. There's a problem with the Mumbai attacks were very

difficult to get the facts quickly. I agree, newspapers are always

making mistakes, but when people say, I blame the media for all of

this, it's such an easy excuse. There's a misunderstanding of the

nature of newspapers and news stories. They are about what is

unusual. What happens most of the time in London, I live in inner

London, there are Muslim shop keepers, no problem at all. We

don't then report, well, the vast majority of Muslims in this country

go about their lives not getting on anybody's nerves. All they're doing

is what their non-Muslim friends and neighbours and indeed, you know

people go and buy things from their shops. Take that on, specifically

that news is the unusual. Yes, it's what is unusual. The moral, ethical

question is should journalists be reporting facts. That was a mistake,

yes, OK. I wouldn't class that as a mistake. If you look at the

headlines today about the 14 arrests we've had over the last few

days, we've had three or four different versions in three or four

different newspapers. There's a lot of speculation. There's a lot in

some cases making it up. That's not good. When you see terrorist

suspects who are arrested and then released without charge, there's a

huge impact on community relations and all I'm saying is I work as a

journalist, I'm involved in the media. Sometimes it's too easy to

blame the media. If you read the Mail for example, there seems to be

anti-immigrant story pretty much every day in the papers. Let her

respond to that. I just feel that - sorry I'm splutering. Muslims have

lived here for yonks, no problem at all. The only problem was that a

jihadist element started up. So, of course, if you wait until all the

facts are there, you don't always get the facts, then people say, oh,

you're covering up for this. If you cover up things, gossip and

everything actually maibgdz things worse. I want to bring in Simon.

Terrorist is news at the moment. What do you make of the argument

terrorist suspects happen to be Muslim, that's a legitimate reason

for speculation. Terrorism is news at the moment. Most are aware that

only a small minority of Muslims are related to terrorism. As Ann

says, few are involved in terrorist. The media have to behave

responsibly. We see some papers, not all, but some paipirz turn

stories into Muslim stories when they're not about Islam. To give

you an example. A couple of years ago, there was a local news story

about a swimming pool where because of a lack of frosted glass on the

bottom screens a few people had complained, particularly women

customers at the pool, that people were standing outside and looking

in on them in their bathing costumes. Some of the people who

complained, happened to be Muslim, not all of them at all. A couple of

newspapers ran this story... don't think the Mail did. I don't

think it was. But the papers picked it out as a Muslim complain. It was

reported Muslim demands swimming in darkness. It's a convenient

scapegoat. Who put Islam in the news. Exactly. It was put into the

news by the extremists. This is the problem. There's a slippery slope.

Are you not supposed to report arrests because it upsets Muslims?

I'm opposed to terrorism. I've been campaigning as have thousands of

Muslim organisations against terrorism and extremism. The

headlines in your paper for example, the Mail and some of the other

right-wing newspapers, has been anti-Muslim story, if it's not hall

almeat, it's the way women dress or it's that Muslims want to get rid

of Christmas. It's to do with... The latter thing about abolishing

Christmas was in one particular newspaper and it was rebutted and

the rebuttal was printed. I'm not saying the newspapers are wonderful.

It shouldn't have been printed in the first place. There's an issue

about how you print apologies. I want to bring in a contributor on

the phone, from the Tell Mama help line. This is the charity you did

research on nasty attacks on Muslimed, which we mentioned at the

top of the programme. You found a significant any more of these

attacks are on women and carried out by men who often have connected

to the BNP or the EDL, is that right? That's right. Thank you for

having me on. Our report has found that of the 170 cases to date, and

we've been running since March of this year that the majority of the

attacks are against Muslim females, over 70% of the callerers Muslim

female. The majority of those numbers wear the hijabs, so they're

women. The women who welcome back the niqab and hijab are more likely

to have more repeat and aggressive attacks and that the individuals

carrying out these attacks are mainly young white males aged

between 20 to 50 with an online presence, because we also look at

online issues, with an online presence having a large number,

disproportionate number of EDL sympathisers who are spouting a

great deal of anti-Muslim rhetoric and hate. Do you think there's a

direct connection between these kinds of attacks and media

reporting? Absolutely. You just look at the Rochdale incident and

you look at the online activity of EDL, for example EDL sympathisers.

They are saying thipgs like paedophile Muslims and this is

constant. It's just, it spike when's there are incidents

nationally or internationally. ahead. Simply, all around the world,

the main victims of violence are women of whatever sex, whatever age.

So in a way this is a problem of men and women. And this happens in

Muslim countries. The only time I have nearly been raped was actually

in a Muslim country by a so-called devout Muslim. So violence against

women is all over the world. It's not always... Your paper doesn't

feel the need to print these stories when women are attacked in

the streets and verbly abused. Yet they're very quick to print anti-

Muslim stories. This is the problem from ethical and a moral point of

view that I base my argument on is that we've got to, you know, these

women - I've met some of these victims across the country who've

been spat at and verbally abused - we'd like to see the same angerened

frustration from politicians. you have a terrorist component -

hang on. When you have a terrorist component, a small one in any group,

I'm old enough to have lived in London through the IRA bombings, a

friend of mine was killed in the Harrods bomb. And I live quite near

a very Irish area with Irish pubs. Irish people, most of whom have

been here for yonks, they're not, you know they just enjoy their

Guinness and the rest of it and sing Irish songs. No stereotyping.

They found they were terribly discriminated against. They would

be spat at, you bombers and things. Now that's all stopped. They don't

bother. The fact that something's happened before isn't an excuse.

course it's not. But the man who recently tore off a woman's niqab

and made her feel terrible, A, he was a bloke who had been on

cannabis, which is an extremely paranoid inducing thing. B, he was

upset and angry because his girlfriend had left him. And C, and

to a certain extent I have sympathy, the niqab is in itself, I'm afraid,

an aggressive act. It says... Explain why. I want nothing to do

with your society. I know in my society is pretty awful in many

ways, but it says no... It's extremely difficult to sit next to

a very successful woman who tries to criticise the right of women to

choose how they dress. Islam is full of that as you know. A gree

with you. -- I agree with you. When people are going on the streets and

spitting on women who wear the niqab, pulling them off and putting

excrement on their faces, that's happening. That's just an excuse by

thugs who might be doing other crimes to other women. If you list

ton what Ann says on her third point, it tells you it's more than

The media is wrong on hate crime. Of course it is wrong. Not just

with Islam. The right wing press have had a stream of stories about

disabled, so called scroungers, people claiming disability benefit

when they are not entitled. Various non-government organisations have

said that hate crime, insults in the street, against disabled people

has gone up sharply. Is it part of a wider picture of media field

intolerance? I just want to bring in another contributor on social

media. We have at Robert West from the BNP. We have heard that a lot

of these nasty attacks on women are being carried out by men who have

sympathies with your party. It sounds like mindless racism to me?

Islam is a religion, not a race. If people have issues in this way,

behaving in this way with members of the community, we would support

that. The British National Party is for educating the public about the

true nature of Islam, and organising proper and legitimate

political opposition to the Islamification of Britain. Robert

has this narrow-minded view about this. The majority of attacks that

have been carried out are by sympathisers with his party. It is

a fascist ideology that violates human dignity. Robert West is a

shining example of that. I believe in freedom of speech and a liberal

democracy. We have got to have a good debate. But endorsing the

abuse of women is not acceptable. He is not saying that. He is

putting a PR spin on it. But actions speak louder than words.

have someone who has been a victim of one of these attacks. What

happened to you? Thanks for having me on. What happened to me a few

years ago is I was walking home one evening, about 5 o'clock, and I

noticed a group of young white men, eight or nine of them, and the rush

towards me and pushed me onto the floor. While they were doing this,

they were screaming and eight Bin Laden scum and other abusive words

at me. I fell to the ground and I fell my hijab been torn. I was

being kicked and punched for what felt like a lifetime. A few minutes

later, I thought something was being poured over me, from various

sources, some sort of liquid. I realised later when it splashed

into my mouth that I was sexually being urinated on. -- that I was

actually. Towards the end of the attack, something was being robbed

on my face. Whether or it was by more than one person, I do not

recall. For they were rubbing dog faeces in my face. Why did the

police say, did they say this was Islamophobia? The classified this

as a race attack. Clearly it was not. It was clear it was anti-

Muslim prejudice because of the words they were using. I had the

same group of men shouting at me and throwing stones at me in the

week leading up to the attack. Thank you very much for coming on

ensuring that story. It is an appalling tale. -- and telling us

that story. This vicious attack is terrible. Why is this not in the

media. The hijabs is the headscarf. Were you wearing a burka at the

time as well? Does that make a difference? I do not think she was.

I have worked in the Middle East a lot, some of it under cover. I was

born in a Muslim country, Pakistan, it was not Pakistan then! When I go

to Iran, or Saudi Arabia, I have to wear it the full outfit. I am

obliged to do that. It seems to me that a few where a bail out, you

cannot see any face. -- it seems to me that if you wear a veil, you

cannot see any face. Whatever she was wearing, the attack was

disgusting, of course it was. I do not think any newspaper would say,

wonderful, speak up for white men. We see these stories in the

newspapers, we do not see these stories. Out of respect, we do not.

If it was an anti- Muslim story, it would be front page news. I want to

let Robert West respond to this. What do you say to this woman who

had that appalling attack on her. Would you condemn it? Of course we

would. There is a problem with Islam that has to be dealt with

politically, rather than in the way that certain members of the EDL are

people that have at is used to have seen the danger of Islam, but are

not reacting to it, not reacting in the appropriate political way that

they should. Talk about the danger of Islam only helps to feel these

attacks. Viewers will have seemed Robert West in at that picture

wearing a dog collar because he claims to be a priest. But no

denomination will claim him, no one will say where he was ordained.

there an issue about politicians? Was it right to not taught about

crimes and issues of integration? Rochdale is a great example of

where people feel a problem was ignored because no one wanted to

step up sensitivities? I live in Rochdale. I was born in that town

and still live there. There are two issues. I think the Rochdale thing

is a completely different debate for another day. But if you look at

integration, we have had an opinion poll in the last few days, Muslims

are more integrated, more passionate and patriotic than their

British counterparts. Celebrating air defences is good, but we have

got to be strong in holding values that bind us together. What I

really dislike about coming on programmes like this, you always

have the nutters from both sides. hope you do not see me as a matter!

No no, you are wonderful, because you Foundation is sensible. The EU

have some people speaking for Muslims, when they do not. The BNP

is no more representative of white people... They are representative

of issues at the extreme. We are encouraging them. Briefly, a couple

of your comments. The Western media is directly responsible for the

rise of the far right by spreading hysteria. Martin says, wadi Muslims

feel they are so hard done by by the press? The media exaggerates

stories about everyone. Thank you very much. I know it is a very

emotive issue. That is our opinion poll question today. Is the media

staring up hatred of Muslims? You can get in touch on our website,

and you can vote by the number on This week, the Defence Secretary

paid tribute to three British soldiers killed in Afghanistan but

he also announced he is cutting thousands of jobs for their fellow

troops. Is the government betraying our soldiers by reducing numbers on

this scale, or when large numbers of social workers and teachers are

being made redundant, should the military share the pain? Philip

Hammond announced this week that he is cutting the number of soldiers

by 20,000 while doubling the number of part-time reserve troops. He

claims it will make the army more flexible. The principal focus is

the brave men and women currently serving and the units in which they

serve. The army that emerges from this process must be a modern

fighting machine. Supporters of the plan say we do not need as many

troops and the Government says it will not be engaging on the scale

of Afghanistan and Iraq again. Supporters say Britain has the

fourth-biggest defence budget in the world and at a time of

austerity, there is no reason why the military should be spared cuts.

But military family say it is a betrayal. Cutting regiments and

Italians will damage the morale of those fighting and dying in

Afghanistan. They argue that fewer troops and more reservists will

lead to a weakened army and there will be a massive social cost in

sending 20,000 soldiers out to hunt for work in recession-hit Britain.

Is it an insult to soldiers who risk their lives to protect us, or

is it a tough but necessary decision at a time of cuts? If you

have a webcam you can make your point with us, or you can join the

conversation on Twitter. The details are on the screen. We are

joined by Patrick Mercer, a colonel who served in Bosnia. This is your

Government's policy, is it morally wrong? Any government's moral and

physical duty, first and foremost, is the defence of the nation. If we

were to see a 20 % cut in teachers, policemen, social workers, doctors,

there would be an absolute national outcry. There has been for many a

lesser cuts than those of 20 %. But I criticised heavily the military

decision, not the political decision, because clearly cuts have

to be made in the Ministry of Defence. But the military decision

to reduce manpower, particularly combat power rather than equipment.

We hear these arguments that our slimmed-down armed forces will be

more effective. But what are we going to do, give each Radovan

Karadzic rifles? The campaigns of the last couple of decades have

shown that we need manpower. It is a serious military misjudgment.

This is not like cutting other public sector jobs, is it? It is

putting soldiers on the dole just as many other people are

experiencing it. I grew up with my father on the dole. I would not

wish unemployment on anyone. But as a result of the Government's

economic policies, we are seeing a massive rise in unemployment. We

are seeing an attack on the poorest in society with government cuts at

a time when tax avoidance from the riches just getting lip-service

from ministers. You think this is about sharing the pain? I do not

think the pain is being shared. It is the working class status

suffering. So you do not think the cuts are excessive? I think that

everyone who is concerned about the cuts and unemployment should be

asking the question we are all asking, is this economic system

working, do we need a different system? The Government's answer to

that was to carry on with the same system. Are we too sentimental

about the army? You have covered many of our campaigns. Bosnia, that

was not a pretty sight. I feel that the problem is that the Ministry of

Defence is one of the most spendthrift government departments

ever. The procurement was through the roof, insane. And the

politicians, soldiers do not decide to go to war. The politicians say,

you are going to go to war. Tony Blair, I think, started four words

which were not defending our territory, which is what the army

is for. You send young men about to risk their lives because the

politicians have decided and the Ministry of Defence has misspent

its money. Lat Patrick answer that. The MoD is spending �300 million a

year on its stockpiles of equipment. The budgets of the Ministry of

Defence have been out of control for a long time. A few years ago,

when British troops were fighting and dying in both Iraq and

Afghanistan simultaneously, the Ministry of Defence decided to

spend hundreds of millions of pounds refurbishing the curtains,

carpets and chairs inside the Ministry of Defence. At the moment

we have 102,000 men and women in the army. We can only do ply around

about 9,000 fighting soldiers at any one time, yet we have five

headquarters, massive headquarters, What's your view on the idea that

perhaps with the cuts maybe the military would focus on taking care

of remaining troops better if it's not wasting this money on other

equipment and things and it has a smaller Army. I ought to make it

clear that I'm not serving, I retired a few years ago, about five

years ago now. But I am working in the defence arena. I think the

short answer to your question is no. This is about taking a slight out

of the combat power of defence across the piece. We are

concentrating on the Army because of the announcements this week.

This is about trying to hold the defence budget at a sensible level

in the context of a Government trying to cut back on public

spending overall. I don't like it much, if I'm honest, because of the

background and baggage I carry from the past. I understand what we're

trying to do here. The issue for me is about recognising the world is a

dangerous place and that we may well be involved in other things in

the not too distant future. Who's to say. What do you make of the

argument of doubling the number of reservists? I think the doubling

the reservists is not bad in principle. It's a timeline issue.

It will take quite a long time to recruit and train and prepare the

reservists to take up the capabilities that the regular Army

is losing as a result of cuts. My own son is a territorial soldier

and it's taken him the best part of five years, and he's actually

deploying to Afghanistan next year. What's happening now is we're

taking a large chunk, 20,000 regulars out and to replace them

with TA means we have to double the TA from 15,000 to 30,000. That

means we have to recruit to about 40,000. There's a big cultural

issue here. A lot of employers are reluctant to have their people as

members of the territorials. It's difficult to get them fully trained

without putting a lot of resources in and giving them the

opportunities to train, which means they're going to be away from work

more often. So it's not easy to do. Thank you. Simon, here's the issue

- they just put the burden onto different people and expect

employers to foot the bill. Indeed. And there's fundamental questions

here about what the armed forces are for. Why does Britain need what

is effectively one of the biggest armies in the world? We might be

going into Syria, you know... God we're not. I hope not. I think

more arms and violence... You buy the argument we're not going to be

involved in those campaigns again and they know it now? I'm not known

for my sympathy with this Government's arguments. What we

have seen is British troops, innocent young men and women, as

Ann said, being sent, politicians' decisions into wars they weren't

prepared for that the people in Britain don't support. The majority

opposed Iraq. What do you make of that? I absolutely buy many of the

arguments, and points that Simon is making. The fact remains that from

any casual glance at history, after Waterloo, after the Crimea, after

South African war etc, our forces are always cut. On the faulty

premise from politicians and military people that conflict will

never arise again in the same way or same shape. Yet we are at war,

at the moment we're in a nasty, bloody war at moment and the

Foreign Secretary... Which is failing. Jien deed. And the Foreign

Secretary is talking is talking of further Military intervention in

Libya. He should be locked up. That's the most stupid idea.

There's all sorts of other parts of the MoD that we can save on. I want

to bring in a parent, Elsie Manning, I think you're a uniform family,

you describe yourselves as. You have a number of children who have

been in the military. Your daughter was killed in Iraq, is that right?

Yes, that's right. What's your feeling about the announcement of

these cuts? I think it's immoral. These boys and girls sign on the

dotted line to go and be in the Army, well in the forces and

they're just being cut back and thrown on the dump really. What's

going to happen to them when they all come out, 20,000 soldiers?

Where are they going to put them? There's thousands on the streets

now. They're out of work, homeless, what are they going to do with

them? This is a real concern, that the military already, when people

leave, they often can experience problems with employment.

Absolutely. I have four prisons in my constituency, which I visit

regularly and the proportion of ex- soldiers, sailors and airmen is

distressing, deeply. This is a real social cost, why should you be

happy about the cuts? I'm not happy. What I'm saying is that this is

part of a wider picture of the Government presiding over

increasing unemployment, slashing benefits, pricing working class

people out of education. There's a massive human cost, including as

Elsie says, people thrown out of the armed forced. We need to ask

bigger questions about the nature of our economy, about the nature of

defence and security. Patrick talks about conflict. The biggest threat

to our security, in the broad sense, over coming years, is the threat of

runaway climate change and what it will do. We're not going to defeat

that... Let's not make it all so global. I mean, of course, we need

a huge arm if we own half the world, which at one stage we did.

thankfully we don't. We don't. I feel it's this whole thing about we

have to punch above our weight, which both governments have gone

into, you know, you must really... We're paying for a Trident

replacement. Don't get me going on the nuclear deterrent please.

Luckily the only defence I can mounts for that is that it doesn't

come strictly from the defence budget. Let's not get into that

debate. It is not a big Army. It's in the a big navy or Air Force.

now. But we are still a great nation. In my view. We have got...

How do you define great. We have to influence foreign affairs. We have

a moral duty to those people upon whose lives we have affected.

you worry lives will be put at risk if you have a lower number of

fulltime troops and a greater reliance on reservists. I believe

the military decision, not the Government's decision to make cuts,

because I recognise they need to be made, not to this level, but that's

a different arguection, the -- argument, the military decision to

cut man power now, when we are facing all the threats, and that

the armed forces are used not just for fighting, but also for the

Olympic Games, this is a crass decision. Morally wrong? Morally

wrong, I find it difficult to defend or understand. I want to end

with contributions from viewers. The Government's prime

responsibility is to protect people. Cutting the Army is counter to this.

It's immoral. Why pump billions in defence if the

country can't afford decent living conditions for the elderly,

children and unemployed. Less troops means less wars we can

get involved in. That means less people killed. That sounds all good

to me. I would like to thank particularly Elsie Manning who lost

her daughter in Iraq. Thank you. Later, have you ever thought about

plastic surgery? Have you fancied botox or thought about a tummy

tuck? If so, you're not alone. Increasing numbers of women and men

are paying for cosmetic surgery every year. Is it wrong to change

what nature has given you? Tell us Remember to keep voting in our poll

question. The question is: Is the media stirring up hatred of

There's five minutes before the polls close or vote online by

visiting our website. It's time for our moral moments of

the week. We find the stories that you've been thinking about.

Actually I'm trying to remember who was going to talk first. Was it you,

Simon? Church of England. That's right. It's voted to ban clergy

from joining the BNP Indeed. It's voted to ban clergy from joining

the BNP. They said racist and discriminatory parties. The BNP has

changed their line and say they're not racist. This was almost

unanimous. Most people will accept that Christianity is incompatible

with racist, however, they talk about discriminatory parties. In a

few days, we'll see them voting on whether to allow women bishops.

Parts of the Church of England colluding with groups that refuse

to condemn attacks, physical attacks on gay and bisexual pex.

Yeah I support this -- people. Yeah I support this decision but they

need to be living up to it in their own inclusivity, in their support

for progressive courses and their attitudes to gender and sexuality

as well as race. Of course, their treatment of disabled people in

terms of access to their buildings. You assumed this would be Cannon

law already. There is an issue of where the church positions itself

in terms of social attitudes. brought up as Roman Catholic. I

used to be called a child of Mary. We used to have little ceremonies.

Luckily when I went to university I saw sense. The C of E seems so

hopelessly what Marxists call prey to his own internal contradictions.

It's incredible. One of the examples they give is well Jesus

only had men as disciples. Of course in the context of the time,

not too easy to have women. And also, most most of them were

fishermen and he was a carpenter, why not insist that the only

bishops could be... Working-class people. Fishermen. You have chosen

a survey of employees which suggest that they like a sense of humour in

their boss, over honesty aparentsly. The poll apparently says that a bit

like the Office that the most important boss is someone that can

mix in, entertain his employees and generally goof around with the

people with whom he works. I find that bizarre. Who knows how big the

sample size of the survey. It was in a national newspaper. Better

than a boss who bullies you. I would say surely am successful

blend of leadership is someone who can include a sense of humour.

the military you wouldn't be Joshing, would you? Absolutely,

completely and totally all the time. The one abiding thing that went on

inside my battalion was laughter, above and beyond everything else

and a complete informality despite the fact that people wore badges

and rank and called each other Sir And saluted, yeah sort of. Off to

one side, humour, humility and humanity are the most important

words of leadership. Three words I imagine you never got in a Fleet

Street editor in the old days. first news editor, who loathed

women, loathed southerners, because this was Manchester, loathed people

with la deda accents, hairy nukled thugs and he bullied unbearably and

in fact, because he bullied me so much on my first day he said,

you're keeping a good man out of a job, I thought right. He is

actually responsible for the reason that I'm now a dame because I

thought, right, I'm going to have Sweet Revenge. Did he have a sense

of humour, of the kind that nobody likes, particularly not women - oh,

yes. It must have been a very small sample. Nobody likes a bully. But

the idea that you'd have to be terribly jolly. Now the thing is

you're a jolly soldier, ex-soldier, but you knew there were lines that

red lines you wouldn't go further than that. Because of the military

structure. Yes, but put the military to one side, any

organisation must run upon people being decent to each other and

cooperating. And of course a sense of humour is fundamental to that.

Whether you wear uniforms or have strict discipline, irrelevant.

Successful leadership rests upon humour, above and beyond everything

else, but of a practical kind. Thank you all for your moral

moments. You have been voting in the poll this morning. Is the media

stirring up hatred of Muslims. The poll is closing. Please don't text

as your count won't count and you may be charged. We will bring you

the result at the end of the show. Now MPs debated cosmetic surgery

this week, after thousands of women discovered they'd been given

substandard PIP breast implants. Is it worth risks of surgery just to

improve your looks? Or does cosmetic surgery just feed our

insecurities? When we look in the mirror most of

us find something we'd like to change if we could, and for a price,

increasing numbers of us are. gently close your eyes. How far is

it acceptable to go? The odd bit of botox at a party? Buying your

daughter a boob job? When does pride and appearance turn into pure

vanity? Opponents say it's unnatural and sends out a message

that looks should be valued above all else in society. They say that

people should learn to love themselves the way they are and

some cosmetic surgery carries major risks and much is unregulated. Only

this week, the Government revealed it will cover the cost of any

treatment needed by the 1500 women who've had the potentially faulty

PIP breast implants. Many people who have cosmetic surgery say it's

empowering and gives them confidence. They feel it's

hypocritical that in a society obsessed with image and celebrity

they should be judged for wanting to enhance the way they look. So

does cosmetic surgery symbolise our vanity and is it damaging society?

Or is a nip and tuck just a simple, We are joined for this discussion

by Terry Prone, the offer of a book about the confessions of a plastic

surgery at -- addict. You have also been very successful in your career

as well. Tell me what made you decide to have all these

procedures? How many have you had? I had a really spectacular car

crash, 50 mph. The other car was so much bigger than mine, it reduced

my car to 160 quid's worth of scrap metal. Everything was broken apart

from my right arm. My face what crashed. The I was in a wheelchair,

and afterwards, I saw my face in the mirror, and what looked back at

me was not my face. It was lopsided, and it was scarred and damaged.

Much later, I began to look at the possibility of restructuring my

face. There was a modified facelift. And also, at brow lift to remove a

scar on my forehead. But then I thought, this has spin-offs. The

brow lift removed it the fact that my forehead looked like a ploughed

field. I always thought that plastic surgery was something that

pampered American women did to please their menfolk. But it is

much like going to the dentist. You do not take pride in the fact that

your teeth are rotting from age, you get them fixed. So when

something started to bother me, I had Botox injections. So you did

not feel the need to age gracefully? Plot is ageing

gracefully? Leaning happily into wrinkles? In 20 years' time, you

will not be complimented when someone comes up to you and says,

Samira, you wrinkles are fantastic! It just does not happen. The thing

about the Botox was, I thought, I will try this. And then the most

magical thing happened, my recurring migraine headaches I had

after the car crash went away. Cooney, plastic surgery with caviar

at says a great thing. Her story is slightly different to most cases

because of the car crash. There is a legitimate argument on moral

grounds that you have plastic surgery. What worries me is that we

live in a society that is over sexualised. We have padded bras

from a very young age, and teenage magazines that talk about these

things. Young people are choosing the path of plastic surgery and I

think that is dangerous. As a Muslim, you should be grateful for

your health and be happy with the way that God has created gear.

not happy. I look like a Galapagos tortoise. You look like a woman of

experience. That is a nice way of saying that I am covered in

wrinkles. I have never consider plastic surgery because of my job.

I was a foreign correspondent. Admittedly I did not lead a healthy

life, smoking and drinking in between avoiding the mortar bombs,

but when I thought about it, I realised that I would need to take

a lot of time off work. What about Botox? I thought about it 10 years

ago. But I found a responsible surgeon who it would not give me it.

He knew I was a journalist, which may have made him nervous. I would

rather my wrinkles were not there, but I find it really depressing

that young women who do not need either Botox or any kind of

facelift, and have not been in a car crash like you, they feel that

unless they look like these airbrush creatures, they have no

self-esteem. I want to take the argument that way because joining

us on wet Cam we have someone from the London feminists Network. A lot

of young women are interested in this. Is it not just like waxing or

other painful beauty procedures women have done through history?

Waxing is another completely unnecessary procedures so I would

not use that as a benchmark. We have to recognise that what we are

speaking about with cosmetic surgery is really serious surgical

intervention in women's bodies. It encourages cutting the skin, and

spilling blood. -- it involves. We are not talking about some sort of

innocuous thing, it is a form of violence against women. We have to

see who's profiting from making women feel so miserable about their

bodies that they would consider this in the first place. There is a

massive fashion, beauty and diet industry. The people profiting are

the cosmetic surgery is charging three Grand for breast implants. We

have to ask why is it that so many women, how many women was it?

47,000 women in this country, who had at the breast implants from PIP

industries. Why are women doing this in their thousands? For thank

you. We have the chair man of it is emetic company joining us through a

webcam as well. There is the challenge. People like you are

making a lot of money out of encouraging women that there is

something wrong with them? I do not think that is true. It is not just

women, of course. Plenty of men have this treatment as well. People

do it for themselves. But it is not a vanity thing, it is something

that they feel will make their lives better. But it is violent and

it carries risks and you make a lot of money from it? It is not violent.

We make normal profit from it, this is a normal industry.

It is slightly unfair to blame him. He is the end process. There are

magazines and shops and society before you get to him. Males have

got to have a six pack and have muscles and feel lean. Do you feel

pressured? No, I keep as fit as I possibly can. But if you look at

teenage magazines, I was reading one in a newsagents while waiting

for a train. It is ridiculous at how we have sexualised our children.

I think that is a contributing factor to cases of sexual violence

against women. Is it getting more extreme with young women, that they

do not just want a breast implant, but a massive one? There are two

problems with cosmetic surgery at the moment, one is the lack of

regulation. That is dangerous for everyone. The second thing is the

lack of parental control because the notion that a teenager would be

given abreast implant as a present by her mother is astonishing.

Teenagers have not fully formed, and not just physically, but

mentally, intellectually. The idea that a mother would say, you're not

going to be perfect unless you have false breasts implanted is shocking.

There is a difference between cosmetic surgery, and I deeply

disagree with the standpoint of the other contributor, that it is

violence against women. It is a chosen procedure and it is not

violent. Clearly profit is made by cosmetics companies, but that is

like saying, we should not take pharmaceutical preparations that

will save our lives because the pharmaceutical companies make

profits. The PIP scandal was kept secret from women after a long time

after questions were raised? That was a completely criminal thing.

That was terrible behaviour. It was also deceiving the regulators. The

only thing I would say, and obviously aware enormous amounts of

make-up, but the beauty industry is not a brand new thing. Everybody

has said, at beautiful women has a greater chance in life. -- and

beautiful woman. You are a success in your own right? I am hugely

successful in my own right, and one of the areas I am successful in his

writing books. I have written 27 books. So it is about confidence?

It is about continuing to look like yourself, no more and no less.

have to leave it there, but thank you. You're online opinion poll

votes are in. We asked if the media is stirring up hatred of Muslims?

37 % if you said yes, it is, and 63 % said no. What do you make of

that? I do not think I have ever been on a programme where the

opinion poll is on the side of Muslims. That is the challenge we

have and we have got to visualise the crimes that have been committed

against young Muslims across the country. The language that has been

used by people like Ann Leslie is irresponsible. Been back, it is

quite offensive to women. -- bin bag. For women who choose to wear

their hijab to be described that way is offensive. I am questioning

how much is free choice. I am not saying they're men are making them

do it, but because they want to announce their religion, I do not

like anyone announcing their religion. Do you think it is about

integration and being part of British society? Yes. I found it

upsetting to go to a Muslim primary school and see little girls in

veils. They will grow up thinking they have to wear them. It is

upsetting for young women who choose to wear the headscarf and

your language, I think that is contributing to that atmosphere.

With the utmost respect to you, you have got to be more responsible in

the language that you choose. are issues, there are terrorism

cases Butt that is not about wearing a particular garment.

are many people in our society who are deeply offended to see young

women going around with naked midriffs. We have to learn

tolerance. Thank you to everyone who has taken part. Dame Ann Leslie,