Episode 6 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 6

Samira Ahmed and guests discuss whether racial insults should be illegal, should we promote contraception in the developing world and is snooping on your partner wrong?


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Transcript


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John Terry was found innocent of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand

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this week, but he should he have ended up in court a tall? -- should

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he. Should racial insults be a crime? Good morning and welcome to

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Sunday Morning Live. John Terry's supporters cheered as they cleared

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him of racism this week. Anti- racism campaigners say racial

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insults must be illegal because they encourage hatred and violence.

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But lawyer Abhijit Pandya things they have got it wrong. This only

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victimise his ethnic minorities further and gives the impression

:01:04.:01:14.
:01:14.:01:14.

they are sensitive. Is more access to contraception the best way to

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protect women or is it immoral to try to stop people in poorer

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countries having lots of children. Jamie Oliver's wife, Jules, has

:01:23.:01:27.

admitted she slips on his e-mails and texts even though she has --

:01:28.:01:31.

says their marriage is rock solid. Is it wrong to snoop on your

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partner's e-mails and messages. Jenny Bond is one of our favourite

:01:36.:01:39.

broadcasters, she has been reported on a roll family for over 20 years

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and was locked into a coffin of rats for the show I'm a celebrity.

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Abhijit Pandya is a lawyer and blogger for the Daily Mail. He led

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the fight to allow a right-wing politician to be allowed to speak

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in the UK. And Bidisha is a novelist and broadcaster, a leading

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expert on women's right and has written from every -- one of thing

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:02:14.:02:28.

from Venice to cultural identity in It was the court case that divided

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a nation. John Terry was cleared of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand in

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a heated row on the pitch. But the Football Association are still

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investigating his behaviour and a number of black players have

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expressed concern over the verdict. They're worried it encourages

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racist abuse. But lawyer Abhijit Pandya says its time we stopped

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being so sensitive. This is his Sunday stand. As you would expect,

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in the debate that follows you may hear some examples of racial

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language that may offend you. Criminalising racial insults only

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victimise his effing minorities further by giving the impression

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they are excessively sensitive and -- sensitive. I am baffled.

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Criminalising racial abuse is only in the interest of the power.. Our

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police, court and prosecutors, instead of spending a necessary

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time on this could be dealing with real criminals. Criminalising the

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use of speech is not about the defendant of victim, but the state

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drawing boundaries between what is right and wrong. I don't believe

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those in governance have the right to do this. Freedom of speech is

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the most important civil liberty. It has to be kept and restricted

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because we use that liberty to defend all our other liberties.

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Without freedom of speech democracy simply cannot exist. We need the

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unrestricted liberty of freedom of speech, not just to air their views

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we want but to also protect tolerance on different points of

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view. If we curb speech that is offensive we will not be able to

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discuss things and we will weaken ties with other communities. I

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would not want somebody who called me a racist names to end up in

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court. It is time to rein in the speech police and leave us alone.

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Bidisha, does racist abuse language need to be illegal? It does and I

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am glad at least this incident got to court and the fact we are

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talking about it shows it is not OK to use the language that was used.

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That was openly racist, misogynistic, which people have not

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mentioned. It was said with aggressive intent. Of course we

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should have a free and civil society where people can speak

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freely but one of the responsibilities of that is to not

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open your mouth and let hate speech about anything, race, sex, ability,

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sexuality, anything like that come out. It is deeply offensive. You

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can say words are words but they are part of an oppressive and

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offensive society. But is the question for the vote. Should

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-- insults. A lot of black players have spent years dealing with this

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kind of language on the pitch and they have come out and said this

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case matters, the issue matters. Are you saying they are wrong?

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are all wrong. The great Enoch Powell once said we have gone mad

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as a nation. I think we have. Why are we spending thousands of pounds

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prosecuting the use of language just because some people happen to

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be offended, or might be offended, we don't even know if they have a

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vendetta against someone. I think words have to be beyond the remit

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of the law. In an ideal society people should say that to somebody

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er don't like, he is rude, using foul language, and that is probably

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his character. I won't have anything to do with him. It is not

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the problem of the state to get involved in it. We have to grow up

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on this. I really don't understand this verdict. It seems to me it is

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deeply offensive, in my view it is a verbal assault. It would seem it

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was held at Anton Ferdinand although John Terry has been

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cleared. But the message that has gone out is that it is OK to use

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that language, would you use black or white in the middle of the other

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words. Enoch Powell was not great, he was a total bases. I want a

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second that idea about violence and harassment, hate speech comes from

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not just language but animation. Except this is often about a wider

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abuse and a boorish and us, but there are specific words which are

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not mistaken. The perpetrator has not mistaken that the choice of

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words, neither has the victim. There are many campaigns in

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football which draw on the testimonies of players who have

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experienced multiple of verbal racial attacks. Instead of being

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over-sensitive, victims wait and wait until it has happened about 30

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times to finally speak out. There are all these campaigns about

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racist language in football because it matters, doesn't it? A think it

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is misguided. I think the real issues here are victims of real

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crime who do not have their cases dealt with because money is being

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spent on dealing with whether somebody is offended or not. People

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used to throw bananas on the pitch, a player has been reduced to tears

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on the pitch. If the club or the FA want to discipline those people,

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fine, but the fact the criminal- justice system is involved is

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taking up a lot of time and money. It is estimated that trial cost

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over �200,000. It is it the money that bothers you? It is the issue

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of freedom of speech, that we are treating people like children.

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Someone is upset so we spent �200,000 prosecuting it. I do not

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think the victims of racial or any other kind of abuse are being

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treated as children, or are behaving as children. I think it is

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very adult and brave to stand up and say this was said to me and it

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and say this was said to me and it is not OK and I will take the

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bullets for it by standing up and bullets for it by standing up and

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bringing some kind of legal suit, whatever it might be, or lodging a

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formal complaint. Not everything has to go to trial but it is very

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big of survivors of any abuse to stand up and say this is not OK.

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This is the tip of the iceberg of what the state based race industry

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has done to this country, it has put people into the mindset of I am

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a victim. A except for you? I think there are many like me who thing

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for goodness sake, you cannot possibly be offended by that. You

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have to just bounce off words. surely would be offended if

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somebody said that you? I would not. Even at work, at court? And no.

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when does it become a legal? At no stage. Employers can discipline

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people internally but as for the state getting involved in making

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this criminal, a man has been made criminal for use of language. That

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is absurd! Let me make it clear to potential perpetrators and victims,

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don't go up to people, open your mouth and say something

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misogynistic, racist, sexist or in any other way bigoted, and then we

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will be fine, not use up any court time or money, let's just agree on

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that. I want to bring a contributor from the Web cam. Simon organises

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:10:28.:10:29.

people getting politically Good morning to you all. Sadly, the

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reality is that gross racial insults are often followed by acts

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of violence. Last year alone there were 51,000 serious racial

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incidents, many of which were violent. It depends on what kind of

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society we want. If we were listening to Planet Abhijit Pandya,

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then we have racism but no racists. We have victims but no perpetrators.

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So we have to say do we want to live any decent society? If we do,

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there are standards and if you break those there are sanctions, if

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they are gross then you go to the courts. If they art work, you lose

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your job. It is about what type of society we want to live in. How do

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you want that? It is not clear whether criminalising racial

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language would change opinions on race. If I commit assault on the

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back of that then the criminal- justice system will act on that, I

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have interfered with somebody's bodily integrity. They can draw a

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boundary between words and assault. The point about it is that one

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follows the other. If you have the former, you are less likely to have

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the latter. It makes sense. We don't want people to have to go

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about their law-abiding business being grossly insulted. That is not

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the type of society I want to bring my child into, neither do many

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black or white families. I want to bring in a lecturer in

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criminology who is on the phone. Simon is saying extreme language

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normalises racism and kind of set a tone to encourage actual violence.

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It is a good question because it reflects the sentiment behind the

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law in this case. It is a very patronising, almost anti-

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democratic sentiment which suggests we really can't allow people to say

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certain things because there will be a trigger in the minds of some

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white working-class people. I think there is something very worrying

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and anti- democratic about a sentiment where we tried to, in

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essence, make certain words and ideas illegal. It is profoundly

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authoritarian and elitist. A so you think it is parley discriminating

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against working-class people. You don't think Posh white people can

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be racist? I think a whole think -- it is a cosmopolitan form of

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snobbery which automatically thinks there is a problem with white

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working-class people who were either racist or potentially racist

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and therefore potentially violent and we need to have more and more

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laws and regulations to try to prevent that. I just don't see

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where the class issue comes in at all. I simply been the message is

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now being sent out, particularly to young people, for which John Terry

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is a role model, that this kind of language is OK. It is not. That is

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why I think the law should have been brought into force. Hasn't

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there been a change over time? Are we a very sensitive which is being

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implied there? I think there are all sorts of defences for abusive

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language and that whenever someone brings it up the tendency is to

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victim blame, to say you made a mistake, you were over-reacting,

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you don't understand, this is about free speech, of course we should

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have a society with free speech but we should also live in a society

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which is not abusive. I think the courts are actually lagging behind

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society on this issue because it has stirred up so much controversy

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that here we are talking about it, which is a good thing. To say

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nothing, to say it is OK and sit back in silence is to simply pass

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it off as normal which it is not. Many feel it is not normal, or

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write to be completely abusive. think there is something in sticks

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and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I think a

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mature society does not react will get upset because somebody calls

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them a name. You think that person is an idiot, fine, but we don't

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want to get lawyers and legislation involved where we had just dealing

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with words. We need to understand they are just words. Anton

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Ferdinand said when someone brings your colour into what it takes it

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to another level and is very I think he proves my point, you

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have made people over-sensitive by encouraging these people -- these

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kinds of prosecutions. That statement is a reaction took 30

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years of oversubscribed racial equality legislation. This is not

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about the sensitivity of victims. We need to put the focus on the

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perpetrator. What did John Terry think he was doing? When I get

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angry, which is frequently, I don't run into the street and verbally,

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racially or sexually or in any other way abuse my colleagues, even

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when angry and spouting off. We need to put the responsibility

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where it belongs, on to the perpetrators. I want to bring in

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another contributor on the webcam. Ricky Gervais came out with a so-

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called joke about people with Down's syndrome and used an

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offensive word, there was a huge backlash. Would you say that is OK

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and is it not similar to the row about racist language? It is

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similar in one sense, you're talking about a attributes that

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:16:34.:16:34.

people can't help, race, disability, security. The problem with Ricky

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Gervais, one of the major problems, was that the joke he tried to make

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wasn't in any way funny. He was trying to say that the use of the

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word had moved on and he wasn't being offensive, but he clearly

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thought he had made a great joke. The fact was it wasn't funny and it

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felt like bullying. I would worry that we should shut down any jokes

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that bringing characteristics, because we can't shut down these

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arguments completely. Sometimes jokes can be very funny that

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involve transgressive ideas. On the issue of bullying, people look at

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the John Terry case and this kind of incident and say that it

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intimidate black players. Maybe you have to be a black player to know

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what it feels like. Possibly. Bullying is bullion but when we

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start -- bullying is bullying but when we start worrying about

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specific words and fetish Freising those words, which seems to happens

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Racism will not go away if certain words are banned. We need to look

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at attitudes and education. race Relations Act came in in 1976.

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My parents can remember some dodgy sitcoms that was supposed to be

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funny about race. People would find this hard to watch now, not just

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people who are black or Asian. Perhaps we don't know -- don't need

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to prosecute, we know where the line is. I don't think that is the

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case, I am glad this incident came to court. It is about society's

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attitudes and if we had all the time and money in the world, we

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would educate from a very young age that this is not OK and there would

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not be the need for it to come to when we are in our 30s and coming

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to court. This is about a deep social education for everyone.

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may want to programme children Orwellian style... I'm talking

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about teaching children not to be total racers, actually. I think it

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is sad that we don't have people like Tommy Cooper around. He was

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not racist. It's depends on your opinion. I think racial jokes are

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OK and the fact that society has to think, oh I have got to edit that

:19:07.:19:14.

programme, it is a backward step, not a Ford's step. Some people --

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:19:24.:19:37.

That this says I am black, I don't think racial insults should be made

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:19:47.:19:48.

illegal. What do you think? You can text us to the number below. Or you

:19:48.:19:58.
:19:58.:20:04.

can vote online. You have 20 Melinda Gates from the Gates

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Foundation charity was fund-raising in London this week. She wants to

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provide access to birth control, including contraceptive injections

:20:11.:20:15.

to millions of women in developing countries. She says giving women

:20:15.:20:18.

control over their fertility will empower them and save millions of

:20:18.:20:22.

lives. Has easy access to contraception being unanimously

:20:22.:20:26.

good for British society, and is it right to promote those Western

:20:26.:20:35.

G one of the world's most powerful couples is challenging the Kathleen

:20:35.:20:39.

-- the Catholic church on one of its core teachings, contraception.

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Melinda Gates, herself a practising Catholic, wants to bring artificial

:20:44.:20:49.

birth control to 120 million of the poorest women in the world and our

:20:49.:20:53.

government is helping to fund it. Every year, 100,000 women die in

:20:53.:20:56.

childbirth, who say they didn't want to be pregnant in the first

:20:56.:21:00.

place. They also lose 600,000 babies every year from women who

:21:00.:21:05.

say it was unintended pregnancy. We can save those lives by giving them

:21:05.:21:09.

the modern tools that we have today, in the UK or the US. The Catholic

:21:09.:21:14.

church disputes her calls. They say promoting contraception would

:21:14.:21:18.

increase promiscuity. The Vatican says that sex should only be for

:21:18.:21:22.

procreation within the bonds of marriage. Across the world,

:21:22.:21:28.

Catholic clergy teach this as a fundamental part of their pace --

:21:28.:21:32.

their faith. It is not the business of the government to be promoting

:21:32.:21:36.

contraceptive devices. It would be like saying, the government will

:21:36.:21:45.

pass a law which will fund the promotion of poor eating among the

:21:45.:21:53.

Muslims -- pork beating. Is it time the Catholic Church changed its

:21:53.:21:57.

stance on contraception? Would it empower women and change population

:21:57.:22:02.

growth? Or is there something immoral about trying to control how

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many children people have been poorer countries? Are we imposing

:22:06.:22:10.

secular values on people who may believe children are a gift from

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God? You can join the conversation on

:22:14.:22:19.

Twitter, phone, text or e-mail. We are joined in the studio by

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Caroline Farrow from the group, Catholic Voices. You are also

:22:24.:22:28.

expecting a child, congratulations. Thank you. People like Melinda

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Gates, who happens to be Catholic, a lot of people in this country say

:22:34.:22:37.

that contraceptives are a force to good, why do you object so

:22:37.:22:41.

strongly? We don't object to women being in charge of their own

:22:42.:22:46.

fertility, and being empowered. But there is no evidence to suggest

:22:47.:22:50.

that contraceptives actually have any life-saving effect. Melinda

:22:51.:22:56.

Gates says she wants to save the lives of women and babies. That is

:22:56.:23:01.

a very laudable goal and we would agree with that. But providing

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contraceptives, particularly to women in the developing world, will

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not impact on maternal mortality rates. Real? Why are women dying in

:23:11.:23:17.

childbirth? Because they don't have decent basic medical care. They

:23:17.:23:20.

don't have doctors, midwives, they are not giving birth in sterile

:23:21.:23:25.

conditions, they don't have any antenatal care. We need things like

:23:25.:23:30.

road to clinics, emergency mobile phones. There is a whole lot of

:23:30.:23:34.

provision that is to be given to women who are expecting, and to

:23:34.:23:38.

newborn babies and infants. Providing contraception

:23:38.:23:45.

circumnavigates the issue. Really? It adds to it. Obviously we need

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those other measures, but to not allow women to have the right to

:23:49.:23:53.

have contraception, not to educate them into contraception, not to

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limit the number of children, kids of 12 years old in Sierra Leone, as

:23:57.:24:01.

soon as puberty hits, they are pregnant. I cannot understand your

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viewpoint at all. It is not about limiting women's rights to

:24:06.:24:12.

fertility. 12 year olds in Sierra Leone having children, no one can

:24:12.:24:18.

condone that at all. So let's give them contraception. Surely that

:24:19.:24:24.

just empowers the man who want to exploit them. 12 year-olds should

:24:24.:24:28.

not be having sex. The problem is that with young marriages and with

:24:28.:24:33.

rape... What we need to be doing is clamping down on those people who

:24:33.:24:36.

want to exploit the women. course, no one would argue against

:24:37.:24:43.

that. We can't give a 12-year-old contraception and say, it is OK.

:24:43.:24:46.

would second everything you have said, it is also about access to

:24:46.:24:51.

childcare, access to hospitals and emergency doctors and assistance.

:24:51.:24:56.

It is also about saying that if you have a situation, life is not ideal,

:24:56.:25:01.

life is what it is. If you have a situation where there are 12, 13,

:25:01.:25:05.

14 year-olds giving birth, not having the education to know that

:25:05.:25:09.

this is how babies are made, this is what you can do and you don't

:25:09.:25:14.

have to do, we must give them contraception. A lot of these women

:25:14.:25:20.

are having 10, 11, 12 babies. goes to the question of what

:25:20.:25:24.

happens in the immediacy of a pregnancy. If you have large

:25:24.:25:29.

families, as the woman, how do you pay for them? Can you educate them?

:25:29.:25:33.

It is about resources and this creates a tremendous strain

:25:33.:25:36.

financially, socially, personally, psychologically, in the years to

:25:37.:25:46.
:25:47.:25:47.

Nobody is arguing that women shouldn't be educated about sex.

:25:47.:25:51.

The Gates Foundation is going to do that, too. A much better way would

:25:51.:25:55.

be to empower women with something like natural family planning which

:25:55.:25:58.

according to the World Health Organisation has success rates. I

:25:58.:26:04.

know you are laughing. I am just smiling. It really doesn't work.

:26:04.:26:10.

does. This is no longer the Vatican roulette. The World Health

:26:10.:26:16.

Organisation report success rates of 97%. One about safe sex?

:26:16.:26:21.

Contraceptives provide safer sex. Have you been to Kenya, Uganda,

:26:21.:26:25.

seen women dying of AIDS with hundreds of children who are going

:26:25.:26:32.

to be orphaned? His even if we give all the education in the world,

:26:32.:26:35.

women within relationships don't always have the power to say, can

:26:35.:26:41.

you please use a condom? Can we do it like this? It is very difficult.

:26:41.:26:45.

Given that this is a crisis situation, I absolutely by what you

:26:45.:26:49.

are saying but this is a crisis situation that is not to do with

:26:49.:26:55.

just contraception, it is about consequences. The evidence shows

:26:55.:27:00.

that condoms, believe it or not, don't actually work. What is your

:27:00.:27:06.

source for that? Professor Edward Green, head of HIV and AIDS

:27:06.:27:09.

prevention at Harvard University, he is an atheist and a liberal, he

:27:09.:27:14.

has no Catholic agenda, he was on the ground in Africa for 20 to 25

:27:14.:27:18.

years, giving out condoms. He said the evidence showed it did not work.

:27:18.:27:23.

There is a phenomenon known as risk compensation. People feel they are

:27:23.:27:30.

protected, so they engage in riskier behaviour. This is what I

:27:30.:27:34.

was talking about about the empowerment of women. Even if you

:27:34.:27:37.

have condoms, you don't always have the power within the relationship

:27:37.:27:41.

to make sure they are used properly and that they serve the purpose

:27:41.:27:51.
:27:51.:27:51.

they were designed for. This is why I am pro- contraceptive injections.

:27:51.:27:54.

A contraceptive injection on its own will not protect against

:27:54.:28:01.

disease. That does natural child contraceptive methods -- neither

:28:01.:28:11.
:28:11.:28:13.

does. You need a condom and an injection. We also need education.

:28:13.:28:17.

I have another contributor, Father John Redmond. Forgive me, it read

:28:17.:28:22.

for it. Women like Caroline who live in Britain, they can choose

:28:22.:28:27.

not to use contraception for their faith, but why should women in

:28:27.:28:35.

poorer countries be denied that choice? Can I congratulate your

:28:35.:28:38.

Catholic contributor, being attacked from all sides, she is

:28:38.:28:44.

doing very well. We brought you in to back her up. I would like to

:28:44.:28:47.

emphasise very much, the Church does not say that people should

:28:47.:28:52.

have as many children as possible. There is natural family planning

:28:52.:29:02.

and a research group called Natural procreation technology. In the

:29:02.:29:11.

recent conference that there was, David Cameron put his oar in here,

:29:11.:29:17.

why was the subject of natural family planning not discussed? As

:29:17.:29:21.

this good lady said, many scientists are saying it is

:29:21.:29:27.

possible. That was not the question, we have moved on. Tell me why women

:29:27.:29:30.

in the developing countries should not be given the choice, in the way

:29:30.:29:35.

that Caroline has a choice not to use it? Because it is wrong. She is

:29:35.:29:39.

given the choice, you can use natural family planning. What is

:29:39.:29:47.

not permitted is to make a sexually immoral decision, which is to

:29:47.:29:53.

separate the sex act from the procreative act. Just a moment, I

:29:53.:29:58.

want to bring in the country director for Marie Stopes

:29:58.:30:04.

International in Senegal. What do the women you meet say to you about

:30:04.:30:12.

it? Mostly, the women just say thank you. Marie Stopes

:30:12.:30:15.

International Senegal is a new programme. We have been running

:30:15.:30:19.

services for eight months and we have already had a massive impact,

:30:19.:30:24.

serving 6,000 women. Most of the feedback I have heard is thank you

:30:24.:30:27.

very much for providing the services that we do not have access

:30:27.:30:32.

to. Only 12% of women have access to a modern contraception method.

:30:32.:30:38.

30% of women express a desire to use family-planning methods. We are

:30:38.:30:42.

going for these women, we show up and they show up because they want

:30:42.:30:46.

this and they need this. I can give you an example, last Monday Melinda

:30:46.:30:52.

Gates came to visit our programme. We spoke to a 19-year-old called

:30:52.:30:58.

Bernadette, who had been married for a year. She was carrying her

:30:58.:31:00.

newborn child and was breast- feeding while we were talking to

:31:00.:31:06.

have. We asked her, why are you here? She said, I have had this one

:31:06.:31:10.

child and I want to do the best for this child, I want to give her the

:31:11.:31:15.

best future possible and I want to give my children that I hope to

:31:15.:31:19.

have in the future, the best education and start in life. For

:31:19.:31:24.

that, I need to space my pregnancies. I think that is key to

:31:24.:31:34.
:31:34.:31:36.

I want to bring in a Catholic physician in Nigeria. Are you

:31:36.:31:43.

saying all these women are choosing to have babies without the power to

:31:43.:31:50.

say no to their husbands? Don't they need contraceptive choice?

:31:50.:32:00.
:32:00.:32:00.

answer to that is not all of these women would have the opportunity to

:32:00.:32:03.

say I don't want to have this particular child at this particular

:32:03.:32:11.

time with their husband. There is a lack of power in the dynamics of

:32:11.:32:15.

relationships here in Africa. However, to say that they need

:32:15.:32:24.

contraception as their answer is not right, it is not the answer. We

:32:25.:32:29.

have been told that women need education. Most of the women are

:32:29.:32:35.

you will stop on the street, if you ask them when was your last

:32:35.:32:39.

menstrual period? Why is it important? How does it help you

:32:39.:32:44.

stay healthy? They don't have that basic knowledge to know why they

:32:44.:32:54.
:32:54.:32:56.

need that information. Caroline is saying we need to put more money

:32:56.:32:59.

into roads and health care, it is not just about contraception but

:32:59.:33:05.

better health care for women. think it is a question of both. We

:33:05.:33:09.

need better health care in countries like Senegal with low

:33:09.:33:13.

resource settings. I fundamentally do not agree with saying

:33:13.:33:18.

contraception is not part of that because in a recent Lancet study we

:33:18.:33:22.

showed if this need for family planning, just giving women what

:33:22.:33:29.

they have already expressed they want, we can reduce maternal

:33:29.:33:35.

mortality and infant mortality by 10%. We can reduce children

:33:36.:33:40.

mortality by 21%, so these are massive health impacts that are due

:33:40.:33:48.

and linked to contraception. There are measurable health impacts by

:33:48.:33:54.

offering the advice and support as well. I am very sorry I have to

:33:54.:33:58.

strongly disagree. Contraception is a big distraction from maternal

:33:58.:34:03.

mortality. Women at die every day in this country do not have the

:34:03.:34:08.

ability to get from where they are having an emergency to the hospital

:34:08.:34:13.

because of roads. When they get to the hospital there are so many

:34:13.:34:18.

delays because the health service is badly put together and there are

:34:18.:34:21.

no resources or personnel to take care of their problem.

:34:21.:34:25.

Contraception is the biggest distraction to helping women stay

:34:25.:34:34.

alive. It is not the answer. have to leave it there. I want talk

:34:34.:34:41.

about need. A World War -- World Health Organisation report says 89%

:34:41.:34:45.

of women without partners have ready access to contraception and

:34:45.:34:50.

can use it. When they talk about unmet need, they are including

:34:50.:34:57.

women who are already pregnant, breast-feeding, that figure would

:34:57.:35:01.

include the 65,000 Roman Catholic nuns in Africa who do not want to

:35:01.:35:07.

use contraception. Following on from that, we need everything, the

:35:07.:35:12.

contraception, education, access, raising of consciousness, I am glad

:35:12.:35:17.

about what Melinda Gates said. appalled anybody even questions

:35:17.:35:22.

this is necessary. Of course it is. I am horrified that a bunch of male,

:35:22.:35:26.

cellar but, childless people in the Vatican continued to try to rule

:35:26.:35:29.

over half the population. It is dreadful.

:35:29.:35:33.

Time for some comments... Demetrius in London, a child has a gift of

:35:33.:35:37.

God but should not pay the price of being born when parents do not have

:35:37.:35:41.

the resources to give it a good life. Another viewer, women should

:35:41.:35:44.

have access to contraception, they can choose not to use it due to

:35:44.:35:50.

religion, but they should have the choice. Later... What would you do

:35:50.:35:52.

if you suspected your partner was being unfaithful? Rebecca Jane

:35:52.:35:56.

spied on her own husband and discovered he was cheating, now she

:35:56.:35:59.

runs a private detective agency to unmask love rats. We'll be speaking

:35:59.:36:02.

to Rebecca later, but what would you have done in her position?

:36:02.:36:06.

Would you have broken into his e mail, spied on his texts? Or would

:36:06.:36:11.

that be an invasion of privacy? You can join in by webcam. Or you can

:36:11.:36:15.

make your views known by phone, e mail or online. You've been voting

:36:15.:36:25.
:36:25.:36:31.

in our poll this morning - should racial insults be illegal? You have

:36:31.:36:41.
:36:41.:36:47.

Moral moments now. Jenny, you have spotted a story about parking for

:36:47.:36:52.

men and women. -- Jennie Bond. These is outrageous. A mayor in

:36:52.:36:56.

generate -- Germany has decided women cannot park so in the car

:36:56.:37:00.

park in the town he has allocated male and female spaces. The spaces

:37:00.:37:06.

for men are more tricky to get into, you have to reverse into them.

:37:06.:37:10.

Reverse ladies, how dreadful! The women's spaces are large and you

:37:10.:37:14.

can go straight in. How ridiculous. If you cannot reverse into a space,

:37:14.:37:21.

you should not be driving. Don't you think? Quite so. I want to see

:37:21.:37:24.

men had sat-nav taken away because then they will never ask for

:37:24.:37:29.

directions, will they? They should add to the women's parking spaces,

:37:29.:37:35.

make them pink with cushions, because we love that. With a little

:37:35.:37:43.

cupcake at the end. A little reward if you can do it! Caroline, this is

:37:43.:37:47.

the interesting story, it is a face and female issue about hotel

:37:47.:37:52.

Bibles... There is a hotel manager in Devon who has decided to replace

:37:53.:37:57.

all the copies of the Gideon Bible which are normally free in a hotel

:37:57.:38:04.

with 50 shades of grey instead. knew that would get a mention. A

:38:04.:38:13.

marketing gimmick? -- gimmick? Parley. I can't help thinking it is

:38:13.:38:23.
:38:23.:38:26.

excluding 50% of the population -- party. -- partly. It is marketed as

:38:26.:38:32.

mummy born, so what is Daddy born? More seriously, it is a big mistake.

:38:32.:38:38.

The Bible has been around for 2000 years, it has more staying power

:38:38.:38:48.
:38:48.:38:50.

and... It has some sexy bits! incredibly erotic. This chap is

:38:50.:38:54.

saying the Bible is inaccessible but I think we can learn more about

:38:54.:39:00.

the human condition from the Bible than we can about some a man with

:39:00.:39:06.

psychological issues. You have read the book. I am enjoying it and

:39:06.:39:10.

subsequent books. I can't imagine a book I would one less in a hotel

:39:10.:39:14.

than the Bible. I've never understood it. I don't want it. I

:39:14.:39:22.

find it boring. Irrelevant to my life. So much of our literature,

:39:22.:39:27.

tradition and culture is based on the Bible and without it you are

:39:27.:39:32.

missing a whole level of richness. Even Richard Dawkins support the

:39:32.:39:35.

Bible being given out because leading cities good literature.

:39:35.:39:41.

think we should have a copy of both books, the hotels can delay poll to

:39:41.:39:46.

see who likes it. The hotels make a lot of money from Hotel born on

:39:46.:39:50.

their TV so all they had to do is keep the pornography on the

:39:50.:40:00.
:40:00.:40:01.

television free. -- porn. And will people still be reading 50 shades

:40:01.:40:09.

of grey in 50 years? The hunt for UFOs caught your eye. It turns out

:40:09.:40:12.

The National archives have released the details of the fact that the

:40:12.:40:18.

MoD have been lobbying strange flying objects for the last DEC --

:40:18.:40:22.

last few decades. I am surprised by this because the hunt has been

:40:22.:40:26.

going on for a while and nobody has found any evidence that across

:40:26.:40:33.

billions of light years advanced light spacecraft have made their

:40:33.:40:37.

way into our solar system to be spotted. The MoD have said they are

:40:37.:40:46.

either forms of plasma or possibly military vehicles. This makes me

:40:46.:40:51.

sound mad but I saw a peculiar floating object above the horizon

:40:51.:40:56.

me where I live and it was indeed a semi circular thing would like us

:40:56.:41:04.

along the rim. Then it turned out there is an RAF base there. As a

:41:04.:41:09.

reporter, Jennie Bond, have you been struck by them? Why are we so

:41:09.:41:12.

obsessed with them? It a assassinating that there is life

:41:12.:41:15.

out there. I am distressed the MoD should be spending money on this

:41:15.:41:21.

because we do not have any money. Not any more. I doubt we had the

:41:21.:41:25.

funds even when we were doing it so I think it was misappropriation of

:41:25.:41:28.

funds. The have cities people who don't have faith, they look for

:41:28.:41:33.

something else in the sky. A Paris Tony Blair was extremely concerned

:41:33.:41:41.

about it and insisted one briefings. He is into crystals and things, too.

:41:41.:41:47.

Who knows? Thank you. You have been voting in our poll, should racial

:41:47.:41:54.

insults be illegal. It is closing now so do not text. The on line

:41:54.:41:58.

voters' closing as well. We will bring you the results at the end of

:41:58.:42:05.

the show. If your partner fancies being unfaithful then the internet

:42:05.:42:08.

has made their life much easier, giving them the opportunity to

:42:08.:42:12.

flirt and hook up with old flames. Facebook is even being cited in

:42:12.:42:16.

divorce cases. So what do you do about it? Well, this week the wife

:42:16.:42:19.

of celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said she regularly snooped on his texts

:42:19.:42:22.

and e mails and she considers their and e mails and she considers their

:42:22.:42:26.

and e mails and she considers their and e mails and she considers their

:42:26.:42:31.

12 year relationship is a sound one. So

:42:31.:42:36.

So is it OK to snoop on texts and e mails to see if your partner is

:42:36.:42:40.

cheating? This week Gill's Oliver described her marriage to Jamie it

:42:40.:42:47.

as solid. Then she followed it up with an admission - - she rifles

:42:47.:42:51.

through his texts and e-mails, and she is not alone. According to

:42:51.:42:54.

recent serve one-fifth of married couples are guilty of the same

:42:55.:43:01.

behaviour. Is it morally wrong to snip? Some psychologistss say

:43:01.:43:04.

spying on your partner is betrayal, you are reading their private

:43:04.:43:08.

messages, what would happen if they call you and they are innocent? And

:43:08.:43:12.

if you break into someone's of e- mail account without permission,

:43:12.:43:16.

that could be a crime. Many people who do slip-on partners say they

:43:16.:43:20.

only do so with good reason. In a world of intimidating and racy

:43:20.:43:23.

texting, it is easier to cheat so they say reading private e-mails

:43:23.:43:28.

and text or even hiring a private investigator is justified, it is

:43:28.:43:33.

their way of protecting themselves against potential infidelity. So

:43:33.:43:36.

are they right? Is it OK to spy on your partner, perhaps even break

:43:36.:43:40.

the law to find out if they are cheating on you? Or is it always

:43:40.:43:47.

wrong, even if it turns out your partner was unfaithful? You can

:43:47.:43:55.

join in on the Web can all by phone, online, text or e-mail. We are

:43:55.:44:01.

joined by Andy Jones, a columnist often found giving it love advice.

:44:01.:44:06.

You went on a Tantric sex retreat to research one of your latest

:44:06.:44:10.

articles. I did. I am very embarrassed to mention it. My

:44:10.:44:15.

mother has not seen it but she now knows about it so I am delighted!

:44:15.:44:20.

You are an expert, we are glad to have you. Jenny Bond, let's start

:44:20.:44:24.

with you. Do you slip on your husband? I would not call it

:44:24.:44:32.

snooping. It is entirely natural to want to see what their

:44:32.:44:36.

communications are. We share e- mails at home, my husband and I, we

:44:36.:44:40.

have been married for many years, we have no secrets and a sound

:44:40.:44:47.

marriage. So it is safe. So you leave things open? We do. He reads

:44:47.:44:50.

my Facebook. It is like wandering round the house naked with the

:44:50.:44:55.

windows open. The do that, too! think they could be consequences

:44:55.:44:59.

and you must be prepared for those. If you read something you do not

:45:00.:45:06.

want to see, it is your fault. You should probably keep quiet about it.

:45:06.:45:11.

My secret cyberspace, Twitter, I do regard that as mine but my husbands

:45:11.:45:20.

see some of it. Tweeds with Oliver Reed. A that's right. He has passed,

:45:20.:45:28.

it occasionally but do not criticise me. Andy, you were caught

:45:28.:45:32.

sending an appropriate message. A girlfriend caught you? Next

:45:32.:45:35.

girlfriend went through my phone and that the message I should not

:45:35.:45:39.

have sent but I was not offended she had breached my privacy. I was

:45:39.:45:49.
:45:49.:45:49.

Was it an appropriate message to another woman? It wasn't that

:45:49.:45:53.

inappropriate, but it is probably something I should not have said. I

:45:53.:45:57.

feel we live in a culture with this vanity society, we are projecting

:45:57.:46:02.

so much of ourselves online, it has never been easier to cheat. You

:46:02.:46:07.

have Facebook, you have friends reunited which will look you up

:46:07.:46:13.

with your former crush. You have e- mail, text, a service on our phone.

:46:13.:46:18.

It has never been easier to cheat but never easier to get caught. We

:46:18.:46:22.

leave an imprint on everything we do online. It is not light

:46:22.:46:28.

footsteps in the sand. We leave these trails all over the place and

:46:28.:46:34.

we can check on our partners. morally OK to go through your

:46:34.:46:39.

partners e-mails, deceit who he is no sitting just in case. I think it

:46:39.:46:44.

is there matter of great importance, these days. It has never been more

:46:44.:46:48.

expensive to get married, buy a house, raised kids. If you are

:46:48.:46:52.

going to invest that much time, you need to know that person is in it

:46:52.:46:59.

for the long haul. Would you do it to girlfriends, then? I know full

:46:59.:47:02.

well never to go into a lady's handbag, which is where my

:47:02.:47:06.

girlfriend always keeps her phone. But I am daft enough to leave my

:47:06.:47:10.

phone all over the place and I am always asked, why are you speaking

:47:10.:47:14.

to each other? If you're in a marriage, you probably spend less

:47:14.:47:17.

time than ever speaking to each other, you spend more time talking

:47:17.:47:23.

on mobile phones, Twitter, Facebook. To people who have never even met

:47:23.:47:30.

that your husband doesn't know. It creates intrigue and suspicion.

:47:30.:47:34.

remember films in the 50s, wives would be smelling their husband's

:47:34.:47:38.

shirts for perfume or checking for lipstick, isn't this the same but

:47:38.:47:43.

with technology? I am not sure if that has made a huge change. You

:47:43.:47:46.

raise a point which has worried me, the idea that because you're

:47:46.:47:50.

spending so much time and investment, it gives you a right to

:47:50.:47:54.

have a surveillance operation over the other person. I think it is

:47:54.:47:59.

slightly deplorable. I think relationship is built on trust and

:47:59.:48:03.

there is a degree to which... Each relationship has a different

:48:03.:48:06.

pattern. There is a degree to which you have got to trust the other

:48:06.:48:11.

person. To carry out what seems like a monitoring exercise, simply

:48:11.:48:16.

because you have invested so much money and time and effort... It is

:48:16.:48:20.

uncomfortable but a relevant point. Hundreds of thousands of couples in

:48:20.:48:24.

the UK want to get divorced, but can't afford to divorce. They can't

:48:24.:48:31.

afford to separate and move out. It does become a point. People at home

:48:31.:48:34.

are watching, they have a mobile phone in front of them, their

:48:34.:48:40.

partner has there I put -- iPad or e-mail, it is easy to have a look.

:48:40.:48:44.

It might not feel like you are snooping but we are all private

:48:44.:48:51.

snoops. What about you? No, it wouldn't occur to me. Is the

:48:51.:48:55.

question, you would only do it if you have a sense of distrust? Or

:48:55.:49:00.

whether you are excessively jealous? Wouldn't it be better to

:49:00.:49:06.

just come from the person? Jules Oliver's idea is that my marriage

:49:06.:49:09.

is solid, he is out all the time and I need to be reassured. You

:49:10.:49:17.

don't buy that? No. I have some expert advice, a psychotherapist

:49:17.:49:21.

joints on the phone. How do you feel about all of this snooping?

:49:21.:49:25.

Andy Jones is saying it is reasonable. It is if you have pre-

:49:25.:49:29.

existing suspicion, I suppose. Or if you want your relationship to

:49:29.:49:35.

die. Because marriage is neither ownership and or slavery. It

:49:35.:49:38.

shouldn't resemble living with a stalker. I think marriage is more

:49:38.:49:44.

of an alliance than a takeover. I think it is right to be aware of

:49:44.:49:52.

what you ask for. But -- beware. The essential point is that you are

:49:52.:49:55.

living with an individual. If you don't have any degree of trust with

:49:55.:50:02.

them, your marriage is in trouble already. Unfortunately, I would

:50:02.:50:06.

have to say to Mrs Oliver, I think there is an existing difficulty for

:50:06.:50:13.

which you may need help. Only the other side of the coin is

:50:13.:50:19.

that you have so much trust that it doesn't matter -- surely the other

:50:19.:50:25.

side. Jenny says that she and her husband leave their e-mails Open,

:50:25.:50:30.

is that a problem? She has reached a stage of Serenity, if I may say

:50:30.:50:36.

that! Are used to work with her husband -- I used to work with her

:50:36.:50:40.

husband and he is an excellent Chapel up a private investigator

:50:40.:50:45.

joins us on the phone now. I gather you have and it partner who was

:50:45.:50:49.

cheating on you, you caught him out and you help other people find out

:50:49.:50:59.
:50:59.:50:59.

if their partners are cheating. His I think there is a fine line with

:50:59.:51:03.

all kinds of snooping. I think there is an acceptable level and

:51:03.:51:06.

then a point where it is just wrong. That point is when you have to

:51:06.:51:11.

start having to hack things. Like Jennie Bond, I am the same with my

:51:11.:51:16.

husband now, our e-mails go through to our direct computer. I don't

:51:16.:51:21.

care if we see each other's because I have got nothing to hide. I also

:51:21.:51:25.

think there is a very big difference between being governed

:51:25.:51:27.

and boy from, and then being married. I think when you get

:51:27.:51:32.

married, -- being girlfriend and boyfriend. When you get married and

:51:32.:51:35.

you have something to hide, don't get married in the first place.

:51:36.:51:41.

lot of people don't marry. He they have a relationship, they may have

:51:41.:51:44.

children together. Are there signs one can look for, short of hacking

:51:44.:51:53.

into someone's own question -- phone. You might see their phone

:51:53.:52:02.

lying around. The bare all sorts of legalities. -- there are all sorts.

:52:02.:52:07.

We always hoped people, it is a long succession of small dishes.

:52:07.:52:13.

They are not coming home on time, not been and where they are when

:52:13.:52:18.

they say, hiding things, being secretive and a change in behaviour,

:52:18.:52:23.

is pretty much what we always say. If you have problems and you can't

:52:23.:52:27.

talk to the person, he person won't talk to you, I think it is a naive

:52:27.:52:35.

view to say, let's talk. Thank you. I want to bring in a journalist who

:52:35.:52:38.

wrote a piece about how you have been going through your husband's

:52:38.:52:41.

e-mails and texts and thought it was no big deal, and people thought

:52:41.:52:48.

it was outrageous. What was your experience and why did you do it?

:52:48.:52:53.

He that is right. Nobody would say that snooping is an admirable

:52:53.:52:56.

quality but I think it is something that increasing numbers of people

:52:56.:53:03.

do, and many feel the need to hide it. My point, kudos to Jules, for

:53:03.:53:06.

admitting to something that lots of us do and pretend we don't do. The

:53:06.:53:11.

most important thing is that it is not rational. It is the equivalent

:53:11.:53:16.

of a parent who bills the need to check that their sleeping child is

:53:16.:53:21.

still breathing -- who feels the need. It does not make you a

:53:21.:53:24.

paranoid parent, it is an instinctive thing that you do,

:53:24.:53:31.

compelled by the bomb the ability that you feel for loving somebody.

:53:31.:53:40.

-- compelled by the vulnerability We haven't quite worked out how to

:53:40.:53:44.

have relationships in this increasingly connected world.

:53:44.:53:48.

People sign of e-mails and text messages with kisses, two people

:53:48.:53:56.

whom they would never dream of kissing in real life. It is

:53:56.:54:02.

interesting. A worry about too many kisses on too many e-mails. You

:54:02.:54:06.

don't always get contact with social networking. Years ago --

:54:06.:54:10.

don't always get context. Years ago a guy would be able to complain

:54:10.:54:14.

about his marriage, let off steam and then go home. People go into

:54:14.:54:18.

the pub less and less and have these conversations online, they

:54:18.:54:23.

leave this imprint. He might complain but he might not actually

:54:23.:54:27.

believe it, but because he has written it down it is there in

:54:27.:54:31.

black and white. More than that, you can float on line, with Old

:54:31.:54:38.

Flames... It is a dangerous world we're living in. I draw a different

:54:38.:54:42.

line between my husband and myself, and myself and my daughter. I don't

:54:42.:54:47.

snoop on her. I am tempted, but I don't. She leaves her Facebook page

:54:47.:54:56.

open, I know that is wrong, but it is OK with my husband. Don't ask me.

:54:56.:55:01.

I speak to people through work. Women e-mail me and say, high, Babe,

:55:01.:55:06.

what are you up to? These are people I have never met. It is

:55:06.:55:13.

almost common parlance. Lots of love, kiss, hug. It is this kind of

:55:13.:55:16.

internet language. If you friend that on its own, it looks like...

:55:16.:55:22.

What is he up to? Who is this woman he has never spoke to? Actually, it

:55:22.:55:29.

can be someone you spit it through work. Modern -- you speak to.

:55:29.:55:32.

Modern etiquette has got very complicated. Have you rethought

:55:32.:55:40.

your attitude, hearing all this? I think out of respect, you

:55:40.:55:43.

should... It depends on the relationship but you should keep

:55:43.:55:49.

what is private, private. Sue says, I never snooped on my husband of 46

:55:49.:55:52.

years and he had an affair for 18 months before the other woman made

:55:52.:55:57.

certain I found out about it, my advice is to snoop. Jean says, I

:55:57.:56:01.

never feel I have to hide anything from a boy from, that is how a

:56:01.:56:05.

relationship should be. -- anything from my boyfriend. We have to leave

:56:05.:56:11.

it there. The vote is in. The question is, should racial insults

:56:11.:56:21.

be made illegal? Interestingly, 79% said no. I'm interested in whether

:56:21.:56:24.

there is a generational thing about... Are we too sensitive about

:56:25.:56:29.

racist language? There is a difference between racial language

:56:29.:56:32.

and racial insults. It's something is outrageously offensive, which

:56:32.:56:36.

should protect a person from that crime -- if something. It is

:56:36.:56:40.

difficult to sanction against the use of certain words. Every hip-hop

:56:40.:56:47.

album I have bought has had the N- word. And probably the age word as

:56:47.:56:54.

well. Exactly, equally offensive to women. You have to have -- do we

:56:54.:56:58.

have to have some sort of hip-hop amnesty? Do we have to double over

:56:58.:57:04.

certain words in certain films... We are talking People to People.

:57:04.:57:10.

People are strongly against prosecuting. I think it is context.

:57:10.:57:14.

In certain situations, I suppose the language is OK, but when it is

:57:14.:57:18.

done offensively and abusively, and in my view as a verbal assault,

:57:18.:57:26.

think there is a criminal element. Abhijit Pandya, they seem to have

:57:26.:57:34.

back due. What is your view? What -- I think we need to grow up,

:57:34.:57:42.

realise that words are just words. I think what we have done it,

:57:42.:57:46.

pursuing an agenda of racial equality, has legislated for

:57:46.:57:52.

language. I think it is terrible, as a modern democratic country.

:57:52.:57:57.

note those disagreement on this, we have to leave it there. Thanks to

:57:57.:58:06.

everyone who has taken part. He don't text or call the phone lines

:58:06.:58:13.

Samira Ahmed is joined by former BBC correspondent Jennie Bond, feminist writer Bidisha, lawyer Abhijit Pandya, Catholic blogger Caroline Farrow and journalist Andy Jones.Topics include should racial insults be illegal, should we promote contraception in the developing world and is snooping on your partner wrong?


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