Episode 11 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. I am Sian Williams with a show that gets

to the heart and soul of the big stories. On the programme: With

British aid worker, Alan Henning, still being held by extremists, we

ask whether aid in conflict zones should be left to governments. It is

world peace Day and we will be with them to see how they are marking the

event. The Bible in song, with a new

musical about to open, how relevant is the holy book today?

The man behind Mrs Brown. Brendan O'Carroll reveals how he made a

mammy into a superstar. I just change my voice and it is exactly

the same as that. All that coming up. Jim Knight is

hoping to have a peaceful day on the banks of the Tyne.

Good morning. Welcome to Gateshead on the banks of the beautiful River

Tyne where people are gathering for a host of activities to celebrate

world peace Day. These are the drums of the Sound Lounge. I will be

bringing you reviews of the people from the North East on the topics he

will be discussing in the studio. Thank you very much. We will be back

with you later. First let's meet some of our guests who are settling

in to discuss some of our topics. We have X model, and the man I be done

Eggheads. CJ dim UE. Katie Harrison who works for Tear Fund 's. Maajid

Nawaz who works for the Quilliam Foundation and James Whale. Welcome

to the programme. Thanks for coming in. We would like to know what you

think also. You can contact through phone, e-mail, Facebook and Twitter.

The wife of a British taxi driver being held hostage by so-called

Islamic State extremists has pleaded with them to see it in their hearts

to release him. Alan Henning, at 47-year-old father of two from

Salford was seized while on an aid mission to Syria last December. Her

at heel has said, any threat to his life is forbidden in Islamic law.

The only response from his kidnappers has been the release of

another British hostage, journalists, John Kanter league he

was captured in Syria just two months after being freed. And the

beheading of David Haines highlight the danger of those working in Syria

and Iraq. Why do aid workers continue to go there? We went to

meet Katie Harrison to ask why she and other aid workers put themselves

in harm 's way to help others. Katie Harrison has worked with Tear Fund

for the last six years. We met her in London at an exhibition of Iraqi

art. She has just come back from backcountry. It is one of the worst

war-torn countries in the world she has visited. 1.8 people have had to

leave. Lots of people moving around the country who need help. They have

nowhere to live and they don't have food or water. We are not reckless

people. We are very cautious. Although it seems rave to other

people, -- brave, we go to places where we know it is safe to work and

live. Sundays you cannot leave the base because it is a particular

lockdown. -- Sundays. Everything has been taken, their sense of heritage,

their place of belonging and their homes. They live with the trauma at

the same time as trying to rebuild their lives. He did start hearing

people taken. I did not think those people were like David Haines and

Alan Henning. So me and other agencies took the decision to do it

through local people and not go in ourselves. It is hard on family and

friends, but they know who we are and they know why we do what we do.

My family pray and that helps them to believe I will be OK. When we

heard about David Haines a few weeks ago, there was a particular kind of

fear but struck the heart of every aid worker. We feel the loss of

David, as if it were a friend, even though we never met him. We all want

our colleagues to come home and we will make sure that they do. But

there are people who need our help and we will not stop doing that.

Katie is here today. She was talking about her determination to carry on

working in dangerous areas. Should aid workers still be allowed to

bring relief to refugees or should the responsibility now be down to

governments alone? Should aid in conflict sounds be left to

governments? Results will be announced before the

end of the programme. Katie, we will come to you in a second, but I want

to talk to James Whale. Aid workers say they know the risks of going

into conflict zones, if they know what they are letting themselves in

for, shouldn't we allow them to go and help people in need? War is a

terrible thing, it is futile. In the end everybody has to sit around and

discuss it. Most people who get are innocent and did not want to be

there in the first place. It makes it a lot more difficult if you know

there are people who are there who are not part of the war. If you are

trying to alleviate the suffering why military means, whether you do

that, I don't know. I don't think people should be allowed to go there

willy-nilly. I think we have to make it better for these people left in

these appalling camps we see on television, but taking aid in their

only relieves the tip of the iceberg. People put themselves in

difficult situations and then we have to pick up the pieces. Charity

aid workers should not go in there willy-nilly, Katie? They should not

go in willy-nilly and I would like to think I didn't. And thousands

like me, we know what we are doing. We are very careful, we train for it

and we send people who know what they are doing and we liaise with

the UN. We choose areas that we know we can stay safe in. That will

depend on whether you are a man or woman or the colour of your skin in

some countries. There are some people out of compassion and a

misguided sense of adventure will go on their own and they will probably

get into trouble. That is why I would encourage people to respond

through an aid agency which has a lot of history in the area. People

question whether a charity should be so big and have lots of people

working for it, but you need the infrastructure and expertise.

Despite that, aid workers are still being seen in Syria as collateral,

as being used in enemy a gander. Everyone is targeted? Syria is

different from Iraq and you have to take that into account. The

unfortunate thing is, you are prolonging the suffering. Whilst you

go in and do that, and these are all non-government organisations. You

are asking people to donate the money to take in there and feed the

people, it is prolonging the situation and the suffering. I am

sure it is not you, but I get the idea when I talk to people like you,

you get a kick out of doing this. If you weren't doing it, the government

is not going to do it, their government is not going to do it,

maybe an end will come quicker to the conflict. What do you mean, get

a kick out of it? They get a kick out of going there. Isn't it

vocational? Is it? The vast majority never get any aid at all. I don't

think we are prolonging the suffering, that is ridiculous. We

are alleviating a lot of need. The people we are seeing being held

hostage taken long time ago. We knew that and we have stopped sending

people in. What you are seeing is an historical thing that has happened.

Just stay out of the way and things can be sorted out. What do you

think? I don't think any conflict is the same. There are certain conflict

zones where Al-Qaeda and their offshoots as in the case of ISIS art

operating. They target anyone who is not a Muslim. They will be taken

hostage and could be potentially killed or ransomed. It is not don't

send aid workers into conflict zones, it is decide which ones to

send them to? Hamas is a terrorist organisation but they don't have a

track record of beheading Western aid workers. Aid workers need expert

advice and that is where the larger aid agencies come into their own. I

would cautious of advising anyone to volunteer for an aid agency that

popped up yesterday. We have to look at the nature of the conflict, be

responsible. There have been aid workers who have gone against the

guidelines and gone into the conflict zone and have been taken

hostage. They do end up becoming a difficult burden on the nation from

which they come to as well as being concerned for their own lives and

they become a pawn. We are talking about the theory of continuing to

send aid workers into areas of conflict. CJ, if aid workers don't

go, who helps these people? This is the problem. If you divide in two

double sections, we have governments and NGOs. Governments are stymied by

this ghost of Specter and diplomacy. If diplomacy did not exist, we would

have had something done about President Putin or you Gabi. The

NGOs have a role to play, but now we are seeing people targeting the

international Red Cross, it might be Tear Fund or other organisations who

are trying to help because the government will not get off their

backsides and do anything. Who will go in and do the work? Governments

are not doing anything, if the NGOs are able to provide the assistance,

provide the funding, are they going to be allowed to do it? Look at the

areas of conflict and if it looks as if they will be more at risk than

others, then don't go there. If it is Al-Qaeda, aid agencies will be

taken hostage. We have our guest from our newsroom studio. I gather a

couple of your colleagues have been murdered, I think it was in Chad in

Africa? They were just held up at gunpoint in Chad and murdered. It

was a mugging, effectively. The point James is making about politics

and government is not doing anything, random things happen. If

you send a government in to do aid, they are still people and flesh and

blood. Not only are they at a much risk as anyone else, there risk is

increased because they come -- become political targets.

Humanitarians and aid workers give aid on the basis of need and forget

the politics. EB begin to use governments and they become

associated with politics and they become more dangerous. Unless aid

gets through, we are in all sorts of trouble. If you send in governments,

the people on the ground start to distrust them because they think

they are affiliated with the people they fear, and then they become

targets themselves? I don't understand, this has become big

business. Aid organisations have become big business. I am not being

rude, but if conflict did not occur, you would be out of business. I am

beginning to wonder whether too much of this is prolonging the situation.

this country by what we see on television news. If we saw some of

the news reports in other countries, war might stop a little quicker than

it does at the moment. So you just get out and leave them to it? To be

honest, if people are going to start doing this, if they get to a

situation, either we go in and we stop the whole thing and say right,

you are not doing it. By that we can't send aircraft in to shoot at

where we think people are, and all the top brass in the armed forces

will tell you nothing will get sorted out until you send troops in,

so eventually you will have to send troops in. The Government here is

considering airdrops and air strikes as well. I think the truth is in

between. We've got to be wary of the pendulum swinging too far either

way. When the Yazidi were stuck on the mountain in Sinjar, the military

did drop in food supplies, and they were helpful until a safe corridor

was created to get them off the mountain. And what about military

action, air strikes? Again it is not an either or. In the case of air

strikes in Iraq to make sure the Yazidi got off the mountain, that

was the right thing to do, it was necessary and we were trying to stop

a genocide. That's different from a full-on invasion of a country.

Dominic, would that put people in the country trying to deliver aid at

more risk if there is air strikes? Lots of things put aid workers at

risk. As Katie was saying, that's the job. Mostly we will use local

people, trained to do aid work, as they have a much lower risk profile.

They are not so valuable, to put it frankly, to the hostage takers, as

they may be Muslims in a local territory where there might be ISIS.

You will only send in foreigners when you have to around the edges.

We are getting this out of kilter. 95% of aid workers are from local

communities and that's the right way to go. Dominic, thank you. We are

going to Newcastle, where it is World Peace Day. There are many

events there. Lots of people trying to make their voices heard. Jim

Knight, what are they saying there? Thank you Sian. Welcome back to the

quayside where the debate is continuing. I'm joined by Alan

Robson, who host as late night radio show. I believe your view is it is

too dangerous for these aid workers to go now? Like any other how many

being pi absolutely support aid and have done all my life. I will help

anybody that needs it. There's plenty that do, because frankly

Governments don't put their hand in their own pockets. It is usually

people led. However, as it stands now, people are packing a van, a wag

good afternoon, and heading off with a few vans from a supermarket chain

with well-intentioned people and they are getting is into trouble.

We've learned nothing from Rambo 4. There were a number of people in a

van that needed rescuing. It has happened far who often already. Once

is too many times. Don't give them people to play with. These people

are too important to us the, so let a Government come in and decide.

Thank you Alan. Dr Anan, you support charities that do aid work and you

are back from Palestine. Is it your view we should continue to do this

on an individual bases? I would love the Government to protect me while

die this, but I wouldn't do it at the cost of my life. You are

supporting their cause by offering your head and that is wrong. Should

just Governments do this now? No, it takes away the meaning of aid,

compassion, help and love, and Governments aren't into that. I

wouldn't like to do aid by offering my head. You are back from the war

zone. I've been fired rubber bullets and at tear gassed in this very

shirt. I wouldn't do it again. Thank you guys. Back to you Sian. Don't

give them people to play with, get the Government is, that's what one

of the guests said there, Katie. If you are talking about the

Governments in those countries, off. Those Governments are overwhelmed by

what's happened. The central African Government, there is no Government.

It is chaotic and lawless. There is no constitution. In the Kurdish

region of Iraq, where I was a few weeks ago, the local authorities are

doing a brilliant job to help displaced people but more and more

people are coming and they haven't got enough resource. They need extra

help for a period of time. Dominic is right. The onus has to be on

local organisations and local people. That's a much more long-term

and sustainable way to help people out of their immediate need and out

of poverty so they can rebuild their lives, or they will detective

dependent. You have to get them to work together in each country with a

long-term aim of helping people rebuild their lives. You are

prolonging the aggravation, prolonging the agony by doing that.

Isn't that a broader conversation? I think it might be a broad

conversation. We have to go there another time. Thank you all very

much. All our throughout are with the families being held hostage. A

ghastly situation for them. The vote is still open. Should aid in

conflict zones be left to Governments? Remember, you can only

vote once. You've got about 20 minutes before

vote closes. You can also vote online at

bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. Results will be announced at the end of the

programme. Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: Owzat, as the Vatican

take on the Anglican as for the first time at cricket, it is too

much for the Archbishop. Sorry, I have to leave it, this is getting

too tense! ? Now to the Irish housewife with a heart of gold and

an acid tongue. She's the star character in the hit BBC series Mrs

Brown's Boys, always ready with a cup of tea and some choice words.

Comedian Brendan O'Carroll created Mrs Brown decades ago, and now his

series and the character he plays is a huge success. But life for Brendan

hasn't always been easy, as I discovered when I went to meet the

man behind the mammy. It's lovely to see you. It's great to be here,

Sian. Thank you. Without your wig and big bosoms, and the bigamous

tache. In the early days I did leave the moustache on but I looked too

much like my mother, so I took it off. That's a horrible thing to say

about your mother! Listen you, you were not Gok Wan. You are not even

Gow Two! So the character is based on your mother? First of all Mrs

Brown's Boys isn't just a TV series. It started as a radio series and

then went to books. And then stage plays and then TV. The books are

popular radio series and then went to books. And then stage plays and

then TV. The books are popular in America - thank God, got bless their

royaltiesies. One of the first things the Americans would ask me is

is Mrs Brown based on your mother? No, my mother had a university

degree. She was the first female Member of Parliament for the Labour

Party in Ireland. So I said no. But actually I'm starting to realise the

older I get, Mrs Brown is probably my mother without that education.

Ah. So my mother had great warmth and understanding and she was the

hub of the family. With 11 children, she ran the shop. 11 children? Yes,

I know! How did she manage? I was lucky. I don't know how they managed

to have 11 children. We had two bedroom's. They must have been in

the wardrobe! I don't know where they were. I wasn't conscious, I

suppose everybody's the same. You grow up in a particular environment

and it seems like the environment that you are. In I wasn't conscious

of it being overcrowded, or of not having anything. What it did for me

as the youngest, my bigger sisters in particular, he to walk across the

floor and I got a round of applause. It gave me that willingness to

perform. There goes Happy Feet. I'd better go in and see what's

happening in the No Po My mother brought me up. I can remember she

sat me up at the edge of the table, I was 31. No, I was five. She would

tie my shoelaces, and she had pinch my le, I was 31. No, I was five. She

would tie my shoelaces, and she had pinch my cheeks and say, "You can do

anything you want to do, you know. Anything." . I remember once saying

to her and I wrote this in the introduction to one of the books, I

remember, because you get to be a clever catalogue es when you are

seven. She said a question. I said mummy, you say I can do anything,

but I can't fly. She said, yes you confirm put your arms out and work

as hard as you can and close your eyes. You'll fly. I remember we

played our first Arena in Newcastle. We went on stage and there were

7,000 people and we did the show. It was a great show. A standing ovation

and I felt like going, look mum, I'm flying, and I was. It was amazing.

I'm not just a cleaner. I have a market stall as well. I sell fruit

and vegetables, because I'm a businesswoman. How do you think she

would, if she was looking down on you? I think if it happened when she

was alive, nothing would have surpassed this. She sounds like an

incredible woman. She was. Gave you a lot. When one of the first

children was born I went through the panicky things, if I don't feed

this, it dies, I can never work defence. I said to my mum, what do

we do here? I don't know what's important for them. She said to me,

all children want is to be not afraid. They just wants you to make

them not afraid. Not afraid to try. Not afraid to fail. And not afraid

to succeed. Children just want to be not afraid. Brendan has had his

successes and awards but he's also had bad times too. In Dublin, 25

years ago, a partner in a pub business disappeared, leaving

Brendan with a mountain of debt. He ran off with all your money you had

made together. And furniture, light fittings, everything. Really? Why?

He wasn't well. He wasn't well. Once I found out he wasn't well, my heart

broke. He be so angry, my heart broke. I'm very lucky I had my

health. I don't know what kind of pain he was in. If that eases pain

for a couple of months or couple of years, you know what Good for him.

As well as, that if he hadn't done that, I wouldn't be doing this.

Wherever he is, God bless him. Why do you think that At that time,

everything was gone. I owed more than I owned. I had been self

employed, so I had no dole. And no income. My friends for years have

been saying to me, you should be on the stage, you are so funny, but you

can't trust your friend It forced me. I need a gig that will give me

cash money. That I can get access to money, that will pay me literally

under the table, because I needed to live. I rang a friend of my, John

Swedeny, God bless him as well. He was a barman and I was a waiter and

we trained together as kids. I called him and said John, give he a

gig. He said, doing what? I said, comedy, and he laughed, so I had him

already. Don't step, there you'll hurt him. You did. I'm allowed, it's

my job. Thanks, mammy. I walked into a bar and said, listen, I could fill

this place. I had my own stage, lights, everything. I was gigging

like that and all of a sudden I was doing eight gigs a week. And because

of the situation I was in, I was pricing, you don't know how to price

yourself, that's why they get agents. You don't know your own

value. I was easily able to value it. Iowa say, how much is in it, and

they would say 50 gig. I would say that's a pound of butter, sugar,

nappies. Yep, I'll do it. So you had kids at that stage as well? Three

kids. And I lost one. I'm sorry. No, many people out there lose people.

Did that then, going on stage and being somebody else to for a while

or inviting comedy, did that help you get over? In the early stages

being able to hide. Even through all the difficulties over the years,

having that stage, it is not that stage persona, I would like to think

I'm the same on stage as offstage, except when I'm wearing the dress.

That two hours, my stand-up show is two hours long for a stand-up

concert. For that two hours, there is no mortgage, no debt. It is just

you and the audience. No matter how dark and difficult things get during

the day, for two hours at night you're free. ??FORCEDWHIT At last I

get to meet her. She's very posh, mammy. And so are we. We have a

series on the BBC, I don't think she has.

Brendan O'Carroll. We will hear more from him later. From ballroom to the

Bible on stage. Musicals about religion can be successful. Jerry

Springer the Musical or the book of Mormon. There is a new one about to

open in London and is being billed as the greatest love story ever

told. Love beyond travels from Genesis to

Revelation is in music. It is in rehearsal at the moment and most of

the major characters in the Bible get our part. -- apart. It is a

different take on the holy book but will it reignite interest in the

Scriptures? If recent research from the Bible Society is anything to go

by, a bit more promotion for the world's rest selling book might be

needed. A poll has revealed many confuse biblical stories with

plotlines from well-known films like Harry Potter. The entertainment

industry sees value in the Bible. Is the Bible in for a revival? Does it

need a bit of stardust to make it more relevant or, is it resonance so

much that you should not have to make a song and dance over it?

Does this 2000 year-old book of prayers and pros have anything to

teach today? We are joined by a Irving Finkel and the writer of The

Ark Before Noah. And Tabitha Webb, the co-writer and director of love

beyond. And she has had association with temp macro and Phantom of the

Opera. And we still have CJ on the sofa. Do

you think the Bible still has relevance in society? People call it

the world's rest selling book but it is probably the least Redbook. Have

you read it? I haven't. As for the Bible being relevant to me, of

course not, I have a brain. How do you know it is relevant if you have

not read it? I know most of what is in it because I need to know various

aspects of life. I know a lot of the commandments and a lot of stuff from

V kiss, which is an aggressive chapter. As far as being relevant to

me, it isn't. People say you do a lot of charity work and you have a

nice outlook, you must lead a wonderful, Christian life. No, I

lead a good life which predates the Christian era by sometime. And if

Jesus Christ ever did exist, some people in the Bible were real, King

Herod was a real person. But how can a work of fiction have relevance to

day. Let pick-up on a few of those controversial comments. It is

basically a work of fiction? It is not relevant because you can get

your moral code from other places other than a book that has been

around the 2000 years. I want to say I think his work amongst the

homeless is fantastic, but why is morality the way it is? In Western

civilisation it has been founded on biblical principles. The law has

been founded on Christian values and people who don't share the Christian

faith can follow those values, but to write it off as no moral worth.

You acknowledge it has something with in it... It has no relevance to

me. I just think it is a load of rubbish. It is interesting to look

at the Bible as a piece of writing because not all of the content is of

the same category and some of it is historical records edited into a

narrative, some of it is poetry, it is a hodgepodge of all sorts of

stuff woven together into a single narrative which has underpinned

western thinking for a long time. It is a pity to write it off as being

more or less valueless in modern society. The several reasons, so

much of the world around is conditioned by the time when the

Bible was around. I did an exhibition about Babylon so I have a

kind of measure about what people know about that world. You can have

a ruler that went from floor to ceiling by age. A selection of

ladies aged 80, probably all of them have read the Bible and ladies who

are 70, maybe some of them and then when you get down to 60, a few had

only read some chapters. When you go into a school they don't know the

stories we took for granted. As we were saying some are some people

believe the Bible is basically Harry Potter. The Bible Society suggested

54% of parents thought The Hunger Games was a biblical story. It is

shocking. I was brought up with the Bible from an early age but I have

had experience in my life to back-up what I read in it. Without those

experiences, maybe those experiences might not hold so much truth. Do you

think it reinforces what is already there, you have a framework of

experiences and the Bible helps reinforce that? Yes, what I see in

the Bible racks up what I see of the character of God, the one I have

experience of. Love. My experience was different. I come from a Hindu

background, no Christian formation in my background but I saw my friend

at school become a Christian aged 15 so I started to read the Bible.

Particularly the Gospel, Jesus and person he was and the way he helped

the poor. You believe this is the Word of God. CJ believes it is

fiction. You believe it is fact? Definitely. The Gospels make a claim

to historical reliability, there was a man called Jesus. As an

archaeologist, how much of it is fact? When archaeology started in

the middle eastern world, they were looking for stuff to prove the Bible

was true. They went to dig in these places where all these events took

place. It is a state forward statement that all of the material

which has been generated by archaeology, primarily written

evidence, nothing has come which contradicts the Bible and proves it

wrong. What it does do is show the Bible is a textual source which came

out of the world which we can otherwise see. It is a miraculous,

wonderful resorts about evolution and the human mind. It real validity

is not whether you pay for your bus tickets. But it has a genius of

understand if -- understanding. It is thought is, parables, poetry and

prose. Sometimes things are interpreted in different ways and

the social outlook from 2000 years ago don't apply today. Thou shalt

not suffer a witch to live. That is quite uncomfortable. That is where

theology today is taking the essence of the Bible and seeing the threads

within it and seeing it as a whole and couldn't chill I Zinc. Does that

mean you cherry pick the bits you like and leave the bits you'd find

difficult? You have to understand the cultural context in which they

were written. You have to understand the thread of love and figures must

-- forgiveness that runs through it. Even into new Testament times when

things got exciting. It is seeing the thread and pattern of what it

homes into. A lot of people do cherry pick it. There is a wonderful

story about an American redneck who had a tattooed, the verse about a

man lying down with a man and said it was a mortal sin. Until somebody

pointed out it was a mortal sin to have a tattooed on your body. I have

no problem if people want to have faith. I don't have any myself, I

can take responsibility for my own life. It is religion, which for me

the Bible... You disagree with it? Absolutely. I want to go to

Newcastle and back to Jim Knight. Welcome back to Gateshead, the drums

of the Sound Lounge are giving us a lovely rumbling accompaniment today.

Is the Bible still relevant for the young people you deal with? It is

because the Bible is a love story. It is about our relationship with

God, It is about our relationship with

and each other. It is made up of different styles of literature. The

prophecies, wisdom, poetry and all this rich literature points to a

redemptive process of reunion back with God and each other. It is very

relevant to everyone today, particularly with young people. The

root of this message, which is a particularly with young people. The

N'Zogbia 's ago. It will be in the future as well. It is manifested in

creation and is realised in the Incarnation, the person

creation and is realised in the Christ who shows us in human terms

what perfect love is. If love is relevant to you, me and young

people, to all of humanity, then the message and moral code of the Bible

will be relevant today. It is relevant and especially relevant to

young people searching for that love. For a slightly different

perspective, you are the chairman of the humanist Society in the North

East. How do you respond to that? Does it have the same relevance to

you? It doesn't, but it is an interesting book. I have read it.

But I had to say, what I find difficult is the way so many

religions have a pick and mix approach. They use particular parts

to justify their actions. There is some pretty things, a lot of

discrimination. It is the message of love, and that is the message

humanists have. We follow the golden rule, treats people as you want them

to treat you, and it does not happen. We have to leave it there.

Back to the studio. Just to let you know we have a

special performance from one of the stars, love Leon, Paul Ayres, who

plays Jesus. That is coming up at the end of the show. -- love beyond.

Our voting is closing on aid workers in conflict zones. We will bring you

the results before the end of the programme.

Brendan O'Carroll, creator and star of Mrs Brown 's boys told us of the

inspiration for his Irish mammy, his own much loved mum. As a Catholic

boy, the church was part of his childhood. We asked him whether it

fits into his life now and when he fell into debt and despair, if he

lost his faith? in God. I lost my faith in people. I

was always struck by the Church. We built a church in our local

community, by my mother and father giving an envelope with ten

shillings in it every week. Today that church is there and it is owned

by the Church. Even though the people paid for it. Is it not still

the people's? No. Whose is it? If they sell it, who is going to get

the money. You are not a fan of organised religion? In any shape or

form. All you need to do is hold a baby, pick a flower or look at a

mountain range. You don't need to prove there is a God. He's there.

I've gone to a church for peace. There is nothing as peaceful as

sitting in a church on your own. Maybe it is hiding. Sitting there

and saying out loud, why aring doing this? Why me? What I did do? It is

wonderful. But I've gone there for privacy to talk to God. I never lost

my faith in God. And again, I say a lost my faith in people. I lost my

faith in organised religion. People are so generous. Given the

opportunity, everybody will help you. But most of us push it away,

when we need help especially, we push it away. Because we are

embarrassed. Last month Brendan appeared on a BBC programme and

discovering that his grandfather was shot in 1920 by a British Army

officer. He had refused to reveal the whereabouts of his sons who were

members of the IRA. He had a visit from a British Army officer who

warned him if his son didn't surrender at the castle before a

given date, he would be shot. Oh Carl was found shot dead in his shop

later. On his body was pinned l was found shot dead in his shop later.

On his body was pinned the card, "Spies beware." The main thing I

took out of that was pride. If somebody knocks at your door and say

we'll be back, and if you don't hand over your sons we are going to shoot

Su. When they knocked at that door that night and he walked out of his

wife's bedroom, he knew he was going to be killed. But he wasn't giving

up his kids. I don't care what your cause is, any man that's prepared to

die for his children is certainly, it gives me great pride it was in my

family. I hope I would do the same. I'd go Danny, come here, you're

wanted. I hope I would do the same. Is I'm very proud of Will you be my

best man? I do! Brendan is very proud of his family both on and off

screen. His wife Jennifer plays his daughter, Cathy. Now she's taking

part in Strictly Come Dancing. Pride in your family, pride in your

partner, pride in somebody else gives you more confidence. Everybody

morning I get up I want to woo Jenny. I want to prove myself.

That's a lovely thing to say. What's the point otherwise? You can't take

anything for granted. Especially other people. Does, is it a bit

weird that she plays your daughter-in-law Mrs Brown's Boys, or

have you completely got over that? Do the years, that is such a skill.

In a nice way. It is weird in that we when we arrive at the theatre we

give each other a peck on the cheek and say, see you later. We come on

brown as Mrs Brown and Cathy. We come off and go for a drink after

and say, it was a good show. And Jennifer is sitting there. Come

over, Mrs Strictly Come Dancing. How are you feeling about that? Again,

I'm so, so proud. Come and sit down. It is great to watch the cameraman

panicking trying to reset the shot. You're used to all this, things

going wrong, being unpredictable. Are you excited Cathy? Sit just me

excited? I'd do it. I'm so used to seeing you as Kathy. Excuse me,ly

say that again. They'll have to keep that in now. Jennifer, are you

excited about it? I am. It is a combination of terror and

excitement. And those emotions nearly got the better of her in

rehearsals. Just before she went to do the dance she fell down the

stairs. I was coming down... You should do it together? In fact you

should do it as Mrs Brown. Seriously. The idea had been mooted

that it would be nice in the Christmas special just for one dense

with Len and Mrs Brown. Are you going to do it? Who would lead? Are

you going to do it? I don't think so. Listen, the one thing, it is

nice to have a crossover between Mrs Brown and something else, but

Strictly Come Dancing doesn't need me or Mrs Brown. It is an entity in

its own right. And you've got to protect Mrs Brown as well. I have to

protect her from Len. Buster, thanks very much for coming round. I'm

sorry it's not more lively. No problem, would like to dance? No. Do

you ever feel you will give her up? She's been part of you for more than

20 years now. 58 years. There is a bit of an old dear in me. It is so

simple for me to do this, because I'm not putting on a persona, I just

change the voice. It is exactly the same as that. You're a lovely child.

Don't do that without your costume, because it really does sound weird.

I can't deal with it like when we are doing the rehearsals or a camera

rehearsal on the show on BBC, I said I can deal with it when you're

police brown and I love it when you're you, it is the hybrid I can't

deal. Don't be walking around the shoes on in your own trousers. No,

too weird. Who was an eejit? Your brother. You'll get no argument with

me. Thank you Dr Spock. Spock. You can help her practise the dancing.

I'm knoll a great dancer or a great enthusiast of dancing. I like to

stay fit, though I missed the gym in morning. That's ten years now. I

will help in anyway I can and the only way I can do that is to let her

know she has all the talent and the ability to do this. All she has to

do is put her arms out and fly. ? He said a lovely thing. Somebody asked

him was he proud of me on the show. He said, I wasn't waiting on

Strictly for me to be proud of her. I was just never proud of her. Thank

you Sian. It's been lovely talking to you both. Thanks a million. He

woos her every day. I bet every woman will be saying that. What

about you? Brendan O'Carroll and his wife Jennifer. Good luck to her and

Jennifer on Strictly, in honour of Brucie. She's my favourite. On

Friday the Pope sent a delegation to Canterbury to take on the Anglicans.

It was not a new rough between the two religious institutionings but a

sporting challenge, as Chris Hollins explains. You can forget about

rugby, football or tennis. Cricket is the ultimate sport. It is the the

only sport you can play for five days and celebrate a draw. The only

sport that requires laws, not rules. And it's the only sport that demands

its participants play in the true spirit of the game. You have created

us to strive for the best... Today it is hoped that cricket will bring

together two sides that have been divided by boundaries for centuries.

This is an historic cricket match between the Anglican Church and the

Vatican. I think it is safe to say they were excited but also very

nervous. Whenever we play cricket you have to play in the right

spirit. Today requires that. It really does. We have to watch our

language. Both sides, the Vatican are a great bunch of guys. We had

dinner last night, Evensong in the Cathedral. We played in a

competitive sport. Both sides want to win, but it will be fair

placement I'm 41 and I'm playing the biggest game of my life. I hope you

enjoy it. Thank you Chris.vy kind of you. The Vatican or St Peter's won

the toss and decided to bat. This is the last game of their tour of

light. They've been bowling people over as well as building

relationships with the Church of England. It is a level playing

field. It is fun. If it is fellowship. It is a chance to enjoy

each other on utterly different terms than the very important

discussions we have. Now we see each other in another way as players on

the same field enjoying the same It is a match that's undoubtedly

captured the imagination. It has also provided everyone involved an

opportunity to pro moat the reedom Freedom Network, which is hoping to

eradicate modern slavery and human trafficking. The Archbishop of

Canterbury was there and the Pope is said to have blessed the team before

they left Rome. A direct hilt was required. It is a tense match. The

most marvellous atmosphere. The lights came on at the end as the

match reached a very exciting climax.

You've got two groups of people together who are training to be

priests in the Anglican and Catholic Church. That's interesting in

itself. They've really hit it off, so it is a good thing. The first of

many of these games? I would like perhaps to go to Rome. It would be

brilliant. I would be lovely to visit them. Great food and wine.

Thank you. Thank you Chris. The all important result, the Church of

England won by six You've been voting in our text and online vote

today. The question, should aid in conflict zones be left to

Government? Here is what you tooled us. 63% of you who voted said

yes,ide should be left to Governments. 37% said no, it

shouldn't. CJ, are you surprised? I am. I thought it would be much

higher for the no vote. Is I support aid workers going into conflict

zones. You've got the UN, the winner of the world's most own effectual

organisation for the last five decades doing nothing. The European

Rapid Reaction Force set up to try and counter that. Of course aid

workers should go. In if they don't, nothing would get done. Tonne would

be cross, no-one is here to defend them. We've been subjected to some

horrible videos and people are reacting emotionally to what they've

seen and closing down as a result. The truth is somewhere in the

middle. Middle. It depends on the conflict. No-one should

underestimate the brave works that workers do out there. That's it for

this morning. Thanks to all my guests here in the studio and those

who joined us from Newcastle, with Jim Knight and the cricketing

clerics with Chris Hollins at Canterbury. We're back at the same

time next Sunday, I do hope you'll join me. Were going out with a song,

with Paul Ayres, who plays Jesus in Love Beyond. Here he is singing The

Kingdom Of Heaven. Goodbye. Listen to my words, turn away from sin.

Open up your heart, let the fullness of life pour in.

Come and follow me, and turn your back on fear. Open up your hearts,

the kingdom of Heaven is here. Listen to my words, turn away from

sin. Open up your hearts, let the fullness of life pour in. Come and

follow me, and turn your back on fear. Open up your hearts, the

kingdom of Heaven is here. Before you say a word, don't turn

your back. I know what you're thinking. He's just a crazy teacher

with the same things to say in a different way. A teacher that talks

but never listens. Pointing out your faults and sins. What I offer is

life in abundance, not rules to obey.

Blessed are the hungry and thirsty. Blessed are the pure in heart. For

God will give them riches in Heaven. More than they could ever dream of.

Listen to my words. Turn away from sin. Open up your hearts and let the

fullness of life pour in. Come and follow me, and turn your

back on fear. Open up your hearts, the kingdom of Heaven is here.

Behind your smile is there a hole in your life as big as an ocean?

Doesn't matter where you're from or what you've done, you can start

again. Come start this journey with me, break the wheels in motion.

Forget the who, what, why and when. Blessed are