Episode 15 The Big Questions

And humour - does religion need more laughs?

Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.

Today, we're live from Oasis Academy Media City UK in Salford.

Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

It's been a tricky week for the Labour Party.

Suspending one MP over anti-Semitism is bad enough

a leading light of the National Executive,

pilloried by the press and fellow party members

and then suspended in the week before the local elections

But surely everyone has the right to criticise policies,

people and countries we disagree with, provided what we say

does not incite racial or religious hatred or violence.

Lots of people across the world have profoundly disagreed with Israel's

policies and actions over the years, especially towards Palestine

It doesn't mean they don't think that Israel should exist at all.

Is anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic? Angela Epstein, good morning. Angela, this

political idea of Zionism and the homeland, we have got our heads

around that but if somebody were to say, and we will navigate our way

through this, it will be fascinating, if somebody were to say

"I believe in a multiethnic one state solution in that part of the

world, therefore Israel as such does not have a right to exist," is that

Anti-Semitic? Israel is the Jewish homeland to delegitimise the Jewish

homeland, that is to say the Jews, Jews from all over the world, have

not got a right to be there. We have all bought into this week the

grotesque references to the Holocaust, the final solution, that

Ken Livingstone, a rabid anti-Semite, has made. Rabid

anti-Semite? Allow me to finish. The Nazis were genocidal murders who

slaughtered millions of Jews and to even nod your head towards that in

the circumspect political discourse is disgraceful. That statement I

said, it is Anti-Semitic? It is, because you are saying the Jews do

not have a right to their homeland and you can't say, as the MP very

lamentably said about Jews in Israel being transported to America, Naz

Shah, again, this language of the third Reich. How can it not

reference anti-Semitism and prejudice? Everybody has a right to

criticise every government on the planet, no government should be

immune to criticism, including Israel. There are Jews that litter

size Israel. But when its views over into unreconstructed bitter

invective, so disproportionate and especially when prepared to --

compared to countries with lamentable human rights record, you

have to question is anti-Zionism a Trojan horse for anti-Semitism and

why don't they like us? Listen, we have plenty of time. It is all

right. Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, he wanted to pass this law

saying Israel is the nation state of one people only, the Jewish people

and of no other people. If any other country in the world said that,

people would be jumping up and down saying it is racist. Is that racist?

I don't think it is racist. I am sorry, if you allow me the courtesy

of finishing. Let's go back to the question, is it Anti-Semitic to

be... Is anti-Zionism a form of anti-Semitism? You have a right to

criticise other governments and what governments do or say. Their

parents, we will spread it out. I want to establish parameters here.

Let Angela answer and then I might very well come to you, and then we

have lots of other people on this side, and on this site. Let me just

say, before the establishment of the state, there was a partition plan

where the Arabs were offered their own state alongside the Jewish

state, and that was unilaterally rejected and over subsidies and --

subsequent wars, Israel gained territory out of defensive moves.

There was an opportunity before the foundation of the state to live

side-by-side and this is how it has come to this. Let's take it...

Side-by-side or separately, OK. There are a lot of Israeli Arabs

that live well in the jurisdiction. Lead me take you to this week's

debate. I will come to you in a second, Raza. Professor Machover,

the Jewish dissident, an Israeli dissident. For example, I saw a

Tweet this week saying the Israeli government are as bad as the Nazis.

I saw somebody tweeting that this week. Is that Anti-Semitic? No, it

is a false statement, it is hyperbole, it is unnecessarily

provocative but Anti-Semitic, it isn't. It is not trying to create

hate or express hate. How can that not be trying to create hate?

Because it is a political statement about the state of Israel, which is

a political entity. But... But if you don't allow criticism,

deconstruction and refutation of Zionism, then you are not able to

understand the policies that we are allowed to criticise. For example,

the settlements, what are they? They are colonisation. So you say it

stops debate? It stops understanding because the root cause of the

colonisation of the West Bank is the fact that Zionism, from its very

beginning, was a movement not for creating a homeland anywhere but

colonising other country inhabited by another people in order to make

that a nation of the Jewish religion. Let me ask you one more

question, we have heard talk this week and in previous weeks from

presidents of the NUS, Ken Livingstone, referring to the

Israeli lobby, she has referred to the Zionist media, this makes a lot

of people uncomfortable, it relates back to the protocols of the Elders

of Zion, which was all about the Jewish worldwide conspiracy. Is the

phrase" Zionist controlled media" Anti-Semitic? No, it is false and

again hyperbole and it may be offensive, especially to journalists

but Anti-Semitic, it isn't. It is a statement about the political twist

of certain papers. For example, I read the Guardian. One of its main

editors is Jonathan Freedman, a Zionist propagandist. Louise Ellman,

MP. I think Jonathan would be pretty bemused to hear that a description

of him. The problem isn't about criticising the policies of the

Government of Israel. The phrase "Zionist media" is it Anti-Semitic?

I think it is, it is taking the malign characteristics that

anti-Semites attributed Jews, rich, manipulative, involving

conspiracies, and transferring it to Zionism, Jewish self-determination.

Rubbish! That is where people move from legitimate criticism of a

country to something much deeper. And it is about singling out Israel

amongst all the countries of the world. It is the only country that

doesn't have any legitimacy to exist. Not about our policy, about a

-- not about its policy, about its existence. There is something about

them being singled out, look at the conflict in the world, it is the

only country that doesn't have a justified existence. I find

something deeply disturbing enough. Raza Nadim, it is kind of... You can

apply the Nick Griffin test to this, Raza. Some of the comments we have

heard from Naz Shah, from the president of the NUS, from Ken

Livingstone. If they came from the lips of Nick Griffin, the former

leader of the British National Party, most right minded people

would think that those comments were vile. That surely is the case? He is

a racist with previous form, C can't really say that the others are like

him. But if you use the word "Solution", "Transportation". If

someone says they are not racist, it doesn't give them carte blanche to

be Anti-Semitic. What I find annoying, I think anti-Semitism is a

real issue but made light of by saying anyone who criticises Israel,

it is nothing to do with occupation, dropping white phosphorus on

children, it is just because you hate Jews. That is disgusting!

Angela, wait. I am trying to make this civilised, I have been doing

radio and television debates on this issue the 28 years and it is never

particularly civilised. I want to have a new first. Some hope. Let's

persevere, Raza. It is important about the context in which this

debate is taught rapidly taking place. This debate about

anti-Semitism isn't taking place because a Tory MP bought a natty

outfit for his aide to wear, or because Boris Johnson referred to

African leaders as watermelon smiles, it is a concerted effort to

undermine Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and say those support him are

Anti-Semitic. John Landsman, the Chair of hope Bakkali Momentum,

which is the Jamie: support group -- the Chair of Momentum. He tweeted, a

period of silence from Ken Livingstone is overdue, especially

anti-Semitism, racism and Zionism. Does that not tell you it is nothing

to do with a campaign against Jeremy Corbyn? It tells me he is basically

finding the media pressure too much to take. To call Ken Livingstone a

rabid anti-Semite, it is throwing that word around. You cannot just

call him an anti-Semite. It is ridiculous. And you talk about

phosphorus! Professor, in a second. Rabbi Benjy Rickman. I think when

people who obsessed with anti-Israel agenda, it is that emotional

language you get from one side that likes to throw out accusations, when

you have a fixated attitude that sees Israel as the anti-everything

that is good in the world, does become synonymous with anti-Zionism.

There are tens of thousands of people being killed to the northern

border of Israel. Where are the demonstrations and the anger at

humanity being wiped out on a weekly basis when America accidentally

kills innocents over the years in Afghanistan and other places? The

media is quiet. When it comes to Israel, all of a sudden you have

this obsession, the vociferous, violent and passionate anger that is

beyond rational conversation and it does become synonymous with

anti-Semitism. We really do feel that in our community. Tony, let me

phrase this to Tony Greenstein, who is a veteran campaigner on this,

Jews for boycotting Israeli goods, is this beyond rational this hatred

of Israel but we here? Of course not. I am Jewish, I was born in this

country. My homeland is in Britain, not in Israel. What is outrageous is

that Palestinian friends abide who were born in Israel and grew up

there cannot return there and I, who have never been born there, can go

to Israel. It is not about anti-Semitism. I will tell you what

it is about. It is difficult to justify locking up 12-year-old

Palestinian children and beating them up. It is difficult that 93% of

Israel is Jewish land that Arabs cannot ascertain. It is difficult to

justify when you are pregnant, you go into award, if you are Jewish,

you can have a ward where there are no Arabs with it. That is not

anti-Semitism. I am going to come to joy Wolfe but I want to ask you,

Tony, does the state of Israel have a right to exist? No state has a

right to exist, states are not human beings. Israel or Palestine has a

right to exist as a state of its own citizens, not as a state of Jewish

people. Joy Wolfe, don't worry. We have time. Professor Machover is

rewriting history. At the beginning, when there was an opportunity for

two states alongside each other, it could and should have happened and

what happened was there was a war launched an Israel once land. When

Israel has tried to give back land, tried to give back land to Gaza,

tried to give it back... Rubbish! It is not rubbish and what is rubbish

is white phosphorus on children. We have photos of that. Everyone be

quiet for one second, please. I want to say one thing to you now, we are

inevitably straying into the politics of the Middle East. And it

is a natural and understandable corollary of our conversation and of

our debate, but I want to, as much as possible, if we could, focus on

this area between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism and try if we can to

establish where something and when something becomes Anti-Semitic. If

that is OK, everyone, that would be great? Join. What I can't understand

is this, there are conflicts throughout the world and somehow the

spotlight is always on Israel. Now, you have to ask the question, why is

the spotlight always on Israel? Is it because it is the Jewish state,

which is what I believe? Israel isn't perfect, it does a lot of

things wrong. We have got a lot of enemies but we do a lot for the

world. Why is it that a group of doctors wanting Israel out of the

World Health Organisation when Israel has done so much in research?

The apartheid state of South Africa offered a lot as well. Professor

Machover and Tony Greenstein are the worst well-known anti-Jewish people

in this country, so we are up against a wall here and the truth

is, there is no reason why Jews and Palestinians and Arabs cannot and do

live alongside each other in Israel and live very well and if you ask...

There is no such thing as Israeli -- Israeli Apartheid, it is the

opposite of apartheid. The phrase "Israeli apartheid" is

that anti-Semitic? Of course it is anti-Semitic! Can I say first of

all, gentlemen, as a board Nicky and we are trying to have a civilised

debate and the fact that you are shouting down anything supporting

Israel says something about the weakness of your argument. As a

fellow Jew, Hitler would not have distinguished between you and me,

remember that. You'd have been on the trains with everyone else

regardless of your views. Ken Livingstone was criticised for

bringing Hitler into the conversation. I am Jewish, unlike

Ken Livingstone I would have been a target for Hitler, he would not have

been. To bring the debate back... Well, behave mature Lee! To bring

the debate back to the original question, the problem is that

Zionist has become a byword for Jew. Jewish students on campus... On

occasions it can do, on other occasions it doesn't. Professor

Camille can make a statement in a second. You can say something in one

second. We will let and the finish and then we'll come to you. -- will

let Angela finish. Many Jewish students including my own children

experience this on campus, they have been called Zio which has become a

leader of the tree byword for Jew. Birmingham University has been

described, disgracefully, as a Zionist outpost. Give me the

opportunity and I will explain. You have had your opportunity! Come to

your closing remarks. The fact is that Birmingham University has

attracted a lot of Jewish students, just as Glaswegians might want to be

with other Glaswegians, Jewish students might want to be with other

Jewish students, how can calling them that not be anti-Semitism? I

want to take a step towards the other side. I can understand their

rage. Zionist Jews have made Zionism and part of their Jewish identity.

It is as though it is a segregated religion. So when Zionism is

attacked, they feel that their Jewishness is attacked. Taxed at

non-Zionist Jews to not feel that it's anything to do with the tuition

identity -- but non-Zionist Jews do not feel it's anything to do with

their identity. And you do? I respect them. I respect what they

think. But what they do is questionable especially when it

involves colonisation of land. Do you accept the point made,

Professor, that there are many worse excesses and atrocities are other

states across the world, which disproportionately not focused on?

There are two points. Israel is not the only in the world but it is the

only one where colonisation is still ongoing, in the USA, and Australia,

they have been marginalised and in some places exterminated. In the

case of Israel and Palestine colonisation is ongoing. Secondly,

there are states that are in the same position for example Pakistan,

another state funded on religion which is a danger to the world, two

of them, nuclear armed states which are a

danger to their surroundings. And North Korea as well. I want some

quick comments on the audience. Louise, I must give you the right of

reply on that because strong things were said by the Professor. What we

have just heard is distortion. There is bitter conflict between Jewish

and Palestinian nationalism, both legitimate concepts that can only be

resolved by a political solution... Let her finish. What has happened is

that there have been walls. Israel has fought defensive walls, and as a

result ended up occupying land that it did not have previously. When a

peace treaty was reached with Egypt, Israel withdrew from the whole of

the Sinai. Israel then withdrew from the whole of Gaza. Unfortunately

that was followed by Tomas, and to call Israel and apartheid state is a

slur. It goes back to singling Israel out. One third of Israeli

citizens are not Jewish. They are Arabs or Muslims. Israel is not an

apartheid state. Yes, there are problems, yes, the whole issue of

settlements and expansion of land has to be resolved by discussion,

when people talk about this bitter dispute, it is only too, to single

out Israel as being solely responsible for the solution. What

about the Palestinians as well? The two pupils have to come together to

negotiate a solution. Maligning Israel as being solely responsible

is an example of singling out Israel, the only Jewish state

involved. Audience, some quick comments, if you would, some pithy

comments. Hello, what would you like to say? Think people worried about

the actions of the Israeli state not just worried about Israel, they are

concerned about other social and political issues, in this country,

we concerned about junior doctors, it is not about Israel all the time.

Don't focus too much on it, think about other countries. The gentleman

in the blacktop? Most sane people would agree that Israel does right

to exist and to defend its borders. Nevertheless by the same token I

think that Palestine also has a right to exist. Hopefully as

President Obama said, two states can live in harmony. It might take time

but you must be optimistic. Just to condemn Israel because it is a

Jewish state, as far as I am concerned, that is anti-Semitic as

well. Raza come you are next on the list. The lady next to you?

Interesting what the professor said about Jews that are not Zionist. I

am not particularly either. I believe if we had to social justice

in every single country would not need Israel! My point is, not being

particularly Zionist and having no particular connection to Israel, I

fail to understand why so many British and European people do seem

to have such an canny connection to the Middle East. So much so that

they are prepared to malign Israel at every single opportunity when not

quite so many members malign, say, China and Tibet, or India and

Kashmir. It is audience time. I will be with you, don't look at me like

that! I will be with you in a second. Good morning. My point is

like the professor said that Pakistan is also a state made on a

religious racist anti-Zionism as being against the state of saying

that if you are against the state of Islam, are you against Islam as

well? If you are against Israel you are supposed to be anti-Semitic so

if you are against the state of Pakistan would that make you

anti-Islamic? APPLAUSE

One well-known Muslim commentator in 20 wrote a very interesting article,

people said it was very brave -- in 2012, saying that conspiracy

theories and anti-Semitism were rife in the Muslim community. He said

that anti-Semitism was the Muslim community's "Dirty little secret". I

don't think it is a dirty secret. Why did he say it? He felt the need

to write the article, you must ask him why. I don't think he documents

the exact reason why. I want to come back to a couple of points regarding

anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. What I have seen is people saying, oh you

only talk about Israel, as if we never talk about Assad or other

human rights abuses. I agree with Louise on one thing, Israel does

want peace, it is just that we are spelling it wrong that, they want a

piece of theirs and abuse of that! -- they want a piece of this and a

piece of that! One more, I know that you are not allowed a platform

because of your views on anti-Zionism, you are not around

when this was stated, your organisation published material

promoting the idea of a worldwide Zionist conspiracy, information

which originally came from Holocaust denial website. As your organisation

cleaned up your act? I will answer that but I have found that when it

comes to defending the indefensible, as with Israel's advocates, they

have to go on the defensive. Regarding those things, I would

recommend people go on the website to look at the rebuttals to these

smears. They offer these periods things. As an activist, on the

Palestinian issue, especially as a Muslim when it is nothing to do with

the abuse of human beings, it is because they hate Jews. A caricature

and it is wrong and it stops people having an adult conversation about

Israel occupying Palestine. The first time I came on this show

social media comments afterwards attacked me because of the policies

of the state of Israel. Being anti-Semitic isn't popular these

days so they attacked me in a different way, how can I claim to

want all people to get on together, how can I say that? You are saying

they disagreed with you? They used Israel to have a go at me. I was

attacked because I am a religious Jew, the Bible and Islam is in

portage to me, Genesis, when God told Abraham to go, the Coram also

has that. Fisher you should be afraid of the Christian Zionists.

The far right in Europe, he supports Israel but he hates Jews! Why was I

attacked? Nick Griffin supports Israel but he opposes Jews! Because

the Jews members of every nation, not just one nation. We are not a

nation! We are a nation, the nation of Israel! The nation of Israel.

Pick up that point. Israel is the one Jewish state in the world, the

only one attacked by the human rights Council, it's just done

something ridiculous, it doesn't have resolutions against any other

country but recently it has a resolution about the way Israel

treats women. As far as Israel is concerned and women there is no

better place in the Middle East for women and Israel. And some of the

things that have been said so offensive. Israel is not a set of

state, not apartheid state. -- not a subtler state. Jews state. It was

given legitimacy by the United Nations. You can be there and next

to an Arab village. Stop talking utter rubbish! Tony, hold on. Joy,

Tony. Let me put the point that I put to Angela, who will have another

chance, don't worry, this Benjamin Netanyahu claws come he wanted to

pass a law... I totally disagree with that. Let me remind you, he

said it should be the nation state of one people only, the Jewish

people and no other people. Do you consider that counter-productive? I

oppose it 100% and every Israeli will oppose it and every decent Jew.

It is a Jewish state with over 1 million Arabs want to stay there.

Can I just finish my point? Everyone, be quiet. Joy?

I feel like the speaker in the House of Commons. I will calm down

completely and I will say one thing, the Israeli Arabs, when there was

the possibility of the transfer of land, in 2,000 back to delete the

year 2000, 90 7% of the land -- in the year 2000, ask any Israeli Arab

if they preferred to live in Israel or the state of Palestine or

elsewhere and they will find that they want the state of Israel. It is

the Palestinian authority... Daphna, you are Jewish. I am an atheist you

and Israeli and anti-Zionism. Is anti-Zionism, can it straight into

anti-Semitism? The two are not mutually exclusive but they are very

different things. One can be Anti-Semitic and add anti-Zionism to

the basket. But anti-Zionism is a question of regime and we have a

right to resent the very regime of Israel, not specific politics but

the idea of the Jewish state, which I find abhorrent. This is akin to a

British person wanting to turn Britain into a republic. This is not

constitutional change. It is not about the right for Israel to exist

or the right of the Israeli people to exist. If you were to wave your

magic wand and redraw the map, what would it look like? I would have one

thing as a whole state with a democracy and all of its inhabitants

as citizens. It is not an Anti-Semitic idea. Angela, is that

an Anti-Semitic idea? One state, everybody together, in a democracy?

The Jews were conferred a Jewish homeland. By whom? Balfour, the

anti-Semite. He didn't want the Jews here, so he said go there! Let's

listen to Angela. Imagine you are listening on the radio and you're

listening to what she has got to say. Tony, you would probably be

shouting at the radio. Angela, carry on. It is the kind of hysteria that

knuckles any attempts to have a sensible debate. It doesn't matter

what the debate is, you want to knuckle freedom of expression. Wait,

less of the knuckle, finish your point. You are not alone me the

freedom of expression. For those people who haven't been to Israel,

who haven't been to the West Bank, I have family on the West Bank, I have

been to the checkpoint... They are colonising it! Stop shouting and

interrupting. If it carries on, I will walk out and leave you to it.

The point is, what right have they got to be on the West Bank? Because

the territory was acquired through war, through defensive actions.

Using Geneva conventions do occupied territory. It is acquired! All I was

going to say is my late mother fell ill while she was in Israel, to see

family that lived there. Her life was saved by any Israeli Arab

haematologist and other Israeli is on the medical team. There are

Israeli Arabs who live very happily under Israeli Jewish diction. The

Palestinian authority and Hamas subjugate the people of Gaza and use

them as a tool. ALL SHOUTING. Be quiet. Professor, you have put

yourself very much on my list. I won't tell you what the list is.

Bishop Stephen Lowe. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and this conversation

months to make me weep because neither side is communicating with

the other -- makes me want to weep. They are not listening to each

other, they are actually stuck in their own worlds and I find that

quite frightening, really, because if you want to get inside a box and

can't see out of the box, you don't communicate. I feel they are into

different boxes. Can I just finished please, now, well. What I want to

say is I personally believe passionately in the existence of

Israel as a place for the Jewish people to find their homeland, but I

have found it very difficult, as a Christian, to find myself defending

that position and yet being accused of being Anti-Semitic when I have

criticised the Israeli government over some of the things they have

done. Have you been criticised? I have been taken to one side and

spoken to very seriously. Hubei? By people with connections in the

Jewish community in the city of Manchester. -- who buy? So do you

think it devalues the term anti-Semitism, to have it bandied

about? It does, because I do not believe I am in any way

Anti-Semitic. I have visited and been moved by the Holocaust Museum

in Jerusalem, I have been there and have got to know and have many

Jewish friends. It is insulting to me to be described as Anti-Semitic

when I criticised the Israeli government for some of the things

that they have done and we have do, in our society, draw a very clear

line between the criticism of the Government, wherever it is, and

prejudice against people of a particular faith and religion. And

the sooner we stop doing that, the better. Welcome to our merry throng.

Can I answer your question. Is anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic?

Anti-Semitism is being anti-Jewish, that means hating all Jews. From an

Islamic perspective, it is strictly forbidden because racism is tricky

for bidding. We are all the children of Adam and Eve, all one family and

to be racist towards each other is strictly forbidden. Anti-Zionism,

well, Zionism is responsible for the ethnic cleansing of 800,000

Palestinians from 700 villages by sheer terrorism, the terrorist

groups that ethnically cleansed the land to make way for the Zionist

dream. And the Jews in Arab lands? They left because... Louise Ellman!

Louise Ellman, member of Parliament for Liverpool Riverside. Please can

everybody stop shouting at each other across the floor. There is a

serious political issue about national aspirations of Jewish

people and Palestinian people that needs to be resolved by a

negotiation which retains the Jewish state of Israel but also a state for

all its citizens, a third of whom are not Jewish but have equal

rights, and a Palestinian state, set up alongside Israel, given massive

investment to make it a viable state with a good economy. But until we

get to that position, we do have to find a way of talking to one another

and one of the problems is to do with demonising... The reason it has

not been resolved cannot be put down to only one side and we can all find

full with leaders in Israel and leaders in the Palestinian

authority, but -- find fault... But when it is in the continual debate

only Israel that is criticised to the exclusion of the Palestinian

leadership, it is starting to demonise what it is a complex and

very tragic situation, so that is a problem and one of the issues. There

are going to be two more comments on this debate and those comments will

come from the professor and also from and I want your comment to

short and concise. What is your final thought, professor? My final

thought is that this onslaught, equating anti-Zionism with

anti-Semitism, is an attempt to prevent us from understanding the

root of the problem. The reason colonisation of the West Bank, the

relatives of my colleague here, is allowed to live contrary to the

Geneva conventions in occupied territories is because Zionism, from

its beginnings, is a project of colonisation of Palestine and making

it into a Jewish majority or exclusively Jewish state. Thank you.

And I think, appropriately, a counter to that from Joy Wolfe, from

the Zionist Central Council. I totally agree that Israel is about

colonisation. I do not believe every anti-Zionism comment is Anti-Semitic

but unfortunately, a lot of anti-Semitism is creeping in and

when we get remarks like "Israel does not want peace but a piece" and

I would like to see the same comments made by him scrutinise. We

have talked about it today. Yes, there has been white phosphorus to

light up the sky... There are not fireworks. Ed burns down on people!

Excuse me! They burn children alive, how dare you justify that. You are

like a Holocaust denier. You are saying she is like a Holocaust

denier? Yes, exactly. You are a disgrace! Joy, I will give you ten

seconds. The Palestinians have been the most misled people in history,

they have had the opportunity of not being a refugee community for years

and years and their leaders have failed and they have had massive

amounts of money and it has not been invested properly. Thank you all

very much. You are outrageous. Please.

You can join in all this morning's debates by logging on

to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then following the link

Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq

Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too -

Next Sunday, we're back from MediaCityUK in Salford

with a special debate on the British Empire -

Amongst those taking part, are the historians Charles Allen

and Lawrence James and I'm sure there be a very vigorous debate

between them and the columnist Owen Jones

and Femi Nylander from the Rhodes Must Fall campaign,

It is going to be really interesting and pretty lively, occasionally we

have pretty lively debates here, so join us for that.

And, if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show,

email [email protected] We're in Oxford on May 22nd for our usual

live morning programme and in the afternoon we're recording

a special asking "Did man create God?"

Then we're in Uxbridge on June 5th for the final two shows

It's World Laughter Day! Where would you be without a laugh? Here.

It's designed to foster brotherhood and friendship

But they're not laughing in Leamington Spa, where a local vicar

has been pilloried for wanting to raise money by showing

In Britain, we have a long tradition of taking the mickey out of religion

from Anthony Trollope's ghastly Mr Slope to Father Ted,

clerics have always been good for a laugh.

But poking fun at some religions can be life-threatening,

as we have seen in Pakistan with its blasphemy laws,

or France and Denmark over cartoons of Muhammed,

or France and Denmark over cartoons of Muhammad,

Does laughing at something necessarily equate with mockery?

Or can we be fondest of the people who can jolly us along,

rather than those who rely on instilling fear and

Isma Almas, hello. Sorry, I am a bit discombobulated. Comedian and

Muslim. Now, there is a great tradition in our culture of

self-mockery and ribbing. Some people are uncomfortable with

self-mockery, is that a cultural thing? I think some people are and I

think what has happened as well is that for a lot of people, religion

and culture have become enmeshed and it is part of their identity, so it

is quite hard to separate the two. So when you end up laughing about

one, people can be offended because they see it as an attack on their

beliefs. Personally, I believe we should be able to laugh about

religion, we should be able to joke about religion. It is no different

to people's political beliefs. We joke about them, we should be able

to joke about religion as well. So in the right context, everything is

OK? Yes, there is a line and if it crosses the line and goes into

inciting hatred, that is a completely different matter.

Sometimes Sattar, though, I don't want to make it about Charlie Hebdo,

but sometimes satire crosses the line and we have a great tradition

in this country about criticising beliefs and ideas and some people

say to object to that is a cultural imposition. But when you work, when

you are playing the clubs, what sort of gags do you do about religion? I

do it about culture, so for me, it is about people's interpretation of

religion that are often cultural issues. The burqa, or something?

Yes, and they are passed off as religion when it is a cultural

issue. In terms of satire and Charlie Hebdo cartoons, I think the

people that attacked and committed the murders and the acts of

terrorism there, they actually created far more damage to Islam

than the actual cartoons and the cartoons were not just depicting

Muhammad and Allah. Years ago, Charlie Hebdo had the Pope holding a

condom over his head... We have had that and we will do it again, but

what about the burqa and things, you say it is cultural. What kind of

stuff... I am asking you to do your act, but give us an idea. We could

blinking well do with it! What kind of stuff would you do about the

burqa? Stuff about wearing it, and my dad

not recognising me when I take it off!

LAUGHTER Not much wonder! Again, it is, for a

lot of people, for comedians, we talk about what we know, our

culture, our lives. For me, being a British Pakistani Muslim person,

like comedy that I do is very much part of my identity and I have an

absolute right to joke about what I want to. People have freedom to

practice, to worship, I have freedom of speech.

APPLAUSE Welcome back, what about jokes about

the burqa and the niqab, acceptable to you? As a rule every nation has

their own line, God, his Prophet and his books, that is a red line and if

you make fun of that we will be offended. People are offended by a

lot of things, are jokes about the niqab OK? It does not fall into

those categories, I just laughed at that joke just now. I did not find

that offensive at all. Would the Prophet Muhammad have had a good

sense of humour? I have a book at home and I very much enjoy reading

it, very interesting and he seems to smile a lot although he wasn't one

for the belly loss. Keen he had a great sense of humour. Can you give

some examples? One out in the lady in her 60s came to him and said,

prophet, can I go to heaven? And he said, no, only young women can go to

heaven. She became very upset. And he said every woman will be a young

woman when she goes to heaven. It is a wry comment. If he was leader of

people he would have hatched to have had it because it is a great

community give tool so he will have to have had a sense of humour. --

great negative tool. Absolutely, every nation has its red lines. For

example I would never make a joke about the Holocaust. It would be

grossly offensive to Jewish people. I would never joke about black

slavery, that would be offensive to black people. So there are areas for

all nations. What about the blasphemy laws in Pakistan, is a

blasphemy law ever justified in any country? Every country has their own

local areas. Would you support a blasphemy law in any country across

the world? Is it legitimate? If it is going to undermine the fabric of

society and turn one race against another, and make any race feel

undermined then certainly we should avoid this type of things. It is

2016. You had your hand up about the blasphemy law. I didn't, actually! I

saw your eyes twinkling! They were twinkling. Can I tell a joke? I am

opposed to blasphemy laws because I think we have an innate sense of

freedom of speech, a right to freedom of speech. The problem is

with people who experience or say they are offended, it is very much

in their own culture and in an minds. And that should not restrict

the rest of us, in my view. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

Somebody once said that the blasphemy law would have a

victimless crime. Did Jesus have a sense of humour? He enjoyed parties

big-time. And I can't believe this is a party without laughter. Also

there are aspects of religion the job wonderfully idiosyncratic,

funny, numerous, and deserves our time. And I often think going down

one of these big processions down the aisle of the cathedral I wish

they would start doing the Congo and the organist would strike up because

there is a sense of the bizarre about it and some of the things we

were sometimes! Letter and the things we wear. The General Synod

sometimes deserves humour. With it we will all shrivel and shrivelled

Christians are horrible. -- without it we will all shrivel. Do you want

to names names! The apes even laugh. Bishop Desmond Tutu and never

stopped laughing and he is able to convey something of his Christian

faith because he loves so much. Any jokes in the Bible? They weren't

very good at jokes in the Bible! The old Testament as far as I know

regards laughter as sinful. The first psalm equates jokers, with the

wicked and the sinful. If you look at the first psalm, happy is the man

who has not gone in the ways of the wicked and who is not stored on the

path of the Senate nor sativus scoffers. -- who is not stored on

the path of the sinner. SHOUTING

It's started a game! Tony. Go on. I will tell a Jewish joke. It probably

applies to my Jewish comrades over there. There was a child, brought

before a court, accused of murder of both of his parents. He fell on the

mercy of the Court and said, please do not sentence me to death because

I am now an orphan! Nobody laughed. The thing about Jewish humour is...

Can I do a Jewish joke, I love Larry David. You know the scene in the

Woody Allen film where his family are all Hasidic Jews? If that came

from someone else... It is what you said at the beginning, gentle

humour, observing things, Victoria wood who we are sad to have lost,

she never sneered, she was never cruel. She looked at the

idiosyncrasies of life. Jewish is self-deprecating. Jackie Mason said

nobody ever crossed the road when they saw four accountants walking

towards them. But is it. We are not violent race. Tony, a Christian

comedian... Thank you. Do you tell gags in church? What goes on. I do

shows in comedy clubs and also do shows in churches and other places.

One thing humour does quite well is release tension. So we definitely

need a joke today! Have you got on? No!

LAUGHTER One thing I do, we've been doing

some interfaith comedy shows with my friend. Different comedians from

different faith groups coming together and talking about their own

traditions and experience and looking at those idiosyncratic.

There is something about that comment humanity that binds us

together. It's one of the beauties of humour. I think religious

extremism is marked by a complete lack of humour. Isner if you look at

all extremes you do sometimes detect a sense of humour failure, don't we,

Daphna? We have to laugh at ourselves. Jews have a great history

and tradition of humour. As an Israeli comedian in the UK I

sometimes feel, however difficult telling jokes about being a Jew

because I don't feel that I massively identify, not part of this

community in any way. My identity is Israeli, Middle Eastern. I have very

few jokes which have to do with being Jewish. But this week when I

heard Ken Livingstone said something idiotic if maybe not anti-Semitic,

remembered this old joke, the Jews come to the rabbi and they are in a

panic and they say, the Cossacks are coming. The rabbi said, what are

they doing? The Jews say they are raping and looting and pillaging.

And rabbi says, oh, the usual, I thought they had come up with

something new! Can I just ask a question of Isma Almas, as a female

doesn't comedian how are you viewed by your own community, when I first

saw you on a show I wondered how your community reacted and how you

ask a woman are accepted as a comedian. In terms of my committee,

they don't know. LAUGHTER

I am sure anyone here who has spoken in public, sometimes you see your

audience and you have to cut your cloth. You do, when you see people

walking in you can tell what kind of audience they will be producing I

will have to delete some of these jokes and put in some milder ones.

One interesting thing about Islam and comedy is that comedy is

encouraged although there is a fine line and you can't have stuff that

is insulting or blasphemous which sadly is most of my material!

LAUGHTER Raza, do you have a laugh at the

office? Do tears roll down your face? When dealing with politics you

are always laughing especially when watching Prime Minister's Questions.

The thing that you alluded to, people take offence at different

things. You depend on your audience, how you do stuff, you can't just say

that you got a friend, there is an element of that, you will offend. To

some people on the extremes just need to explore their common sense

of humanity? And chill out, is that the word you'd use? If they would

show that they wouldn't be that crazy. There's a lot of talk in the

world comedy about freedom of speech. People say that you can't

say anything any more, women get offended, religious people get

offended. I think it is an odd summer to question of people being

offended, if you can stand behind what you say you don't mind if

people are offended. I am offensive to some people but when I am I want

to make the statement and I stand by what I say. Being offensive to the

sake of it is not the point. Think the point is not being offended if

you make a racist joke, I discovered you want to be a misogynist. Does

anyone remember the Dave Allen TV show? Would he get away with that?

He was very funny! We are out of time, my name is Nicky Campbell,

good night! As always, the debates will continue

online and on Twitter. Good afternoon and make your God go

with you. The British Empire next week, thank you -- may your God go

with you.