15/09/2013 Scrum V Sunday

The Ospreys play their part in a Dublin thriller. The Scarlets seek

revenge against Treviso. The Blues usher in a new era at the Arms Park

and the Dragons travel north looking for two wins from two. How will the

new laws affect the game? We hear the thoughts of Brian Moore. I can

stay square and carry on pushing and go off the ball. Will this year's

Heineken Cup be the last? We discuss the future of the world's premier

club rugby tournament. And we spend an emotional day here as they play

their first home game since their clubhouse was destroyed by fire.

Good afternoon. Welcome to Scrum V Sunday. We have another jam-packed

show. Martin and Jonathan are here. They'll offer their thoughts and

opinions on all the stories, but we'll kick off with the action and

the thriller in Dublin. Evans returned to the side replacing Ryan

Jones. Mike McCarthy was making his first start for Leinster and they

were once again without their six Lions.

Away goes Kearney on the outside. Simple for Leinster again. Winning

the turnover and moving it wide and the backs did

High from the fly-half. No problem for the Ospreys and they get back

just before the interval. I think Joe beer beerman -- Joe

Biermann has got there. Lovely hands. Beerman barrelling over.

Just. The centre gets over and the Ospreys

take the lead. Shane Jennings there. Not happy.

Cronin gets the yellow. They have been warned.

Clear Gopperth. No problem for the ten.

If you had told me this would weeks ago we would have taken it. We are

not where we want to be in performance, but we got in and we

are getting back home. We are excited by that. Dramatic and

exciting finish and Jonathan, what is it about the Ospreys in Dublin,

it's becoming a real bogey site for Leinster? I don't know. They must

have a good night after if they get a result. I don't know. I feel the

defence is solid. They got a good pack of forwards, which makes it

tough for the opposition. Of course, Dan Biggar kicks everything. The

first half Leinster dominated and it could have been way ahead, but took

chances. There were a few disappointments going wide, but

again they clawed their way back and hang on in there. They take their

chances and scored two lovely tries with Biermann, but it's a solid

defence. Classic encounter, Martin. Real advert for the League and

satisfy-sawed a bit, but ended in a draw which I guess was fair. What

was the Ospreys' secret there? We saR Leinster last week and they were

the best attacking side in Europe, but defensive organisation in the

Ospreys was outstanding. We have a couple of examples. First and

foremost you have to make the one-off tackles. Stops the momentum

there. They don't overcommit the Ospreys to the breakdown, so

Gopperth is looking at a white line. It is easy to head up. Leinster

found it difficult to get momentum. It was a very well-organised plan

and they stuck to it for the whole game and a few lapses earlier on,

but when they were broken, a couple of examples here. This sums them up.

Desperation in defence once the first line is broken. You see Tom

Smith, under huge pressure. Massive turning point. He's in and steals

the ball. Look at the numbers working hard to get back. That's

what you have to do when you go to Dublin. This man is on fire. 19

points yesterday and kept them in touch throughout the game and keeps

you in the score, so he has a kicking game in defence and that's

90%. Dan Biggar. You were singing his praises last week. He has shown

he's got the Tom prement. As I said, last yeeBG's Six Nations has made

him -- temprement. As I said last year's Six Nations has made him. He

had a run there. Then there were the changes and last year I thought he

was one of the key players and I think that he's knocking everything

over and the defence, they work hard. They get up quickly and

organise themselves quickly. The interesting thing for me this year,

the turnovers, especially Leinster, they've gone wide very, very quickly

because they try to catch Gopperth, but also over the weekend a lot of

sides were looking up and working the short side. Leinster scored a

try on the short side and a couple of people have created that, which

is great. We'll switch to talk about the Heineken Cup, because it's been

the topic this week and Leinster did suggest they wanted it it to stay

on. If it goes and is replaced by an Anglo-French tournament that we are

not part of, what are the consequences for Welsh rugby?

Massive. Financially is one. We are way behind already the regions and

that's very, very difficult for the regions. A lot of players will then

go and wonder where they will be. I don't think none of us really know

what the situation is. With Martyn Thomas or the RFU they are saying

the English clubs have signed up for two years and they've said they're

going. The French said they are leaving and then Leinster might go

and someone else. I just think it has a great format. Sitting around

the table and I understand English views because they've been saying

this for two years. 15 months have gone buy and nothing being resolved?

You want to change things. I feel that the thing is, one,

qualification. Yeah.I agree with the top six. I do. That's the

general consensus. It shouldn't be automatic qualification. I know

there might not be a Scottish team in there or Cardiff, but I think

there's a lot of stones thrown at the rabbit and it would lift it. If

you are not good enough to play in the top six, if there's no Welsh

sides in the top six and that could happen, then the Welsh will have to

boost the regions and get players in there and also what the French and

gliR clubs are worried about is the fact that especially in Leinster and

Munster, a week before the Ian Ken cup game they are smashing the hell

out of each other and the others are in fresh and the am Lynn is a strong

competition, so if you are going to the am Lynn and you win it that's a

great achievement. Martin's point about maybe you wouldn't have the

Scottish or the Italians if you are forced into the top six, the Amlin

is good enough. enough. Martin's point about maybe you wouldn't have

the Scottish or the Italians if you are forced into the top six, the

Amlin is good enough. HITE You look at it the last couple of years. It's

great. The top three sides or four drop down and it will lift that.

It's a very strong competition. The worry is the English and the French

want more money. It's the lawyers who will make the money. We have to

leave it there, but we'll chat about this a lot more in Scrum V Extra

Time. It's on straight after we are off air, so if you have any views

get in touch with us. Ever wish there was more time, well

now we'll be spending a bit more time to discuss all the stories from

the weekend on Scrum V Extra time. Time. Only available on-line at BBC.

The programme will be on just after the show finishes. If you have a

question for the panel or there's something you want the team to

discuss e-mail the show. Last weekend the Scarlets were

thrashed in their opening encounter against Leinster. This week, they

were trying to get their season back on track against Treviso.

Simon Easterby made one change to the side that lost last week. Jordan

Williams replacing the injured Christian Philips. Jonathan Davies

was named on the bench. The Scarlets were out for revenge after suffering

a 41-17 thrashing at the hands of Treviso last season.

Davies has got a second from nothing.

Davies reacts to the ball in the face. There is a little undercurrent

there. There is more there now. You've thrown the ball at an

opponent and it's a yellow card and you've overpaned him. Both of you

are going to the bin. That's a collective one for the

team. Schindler -- Shingler adds another

three. Treviso denied by the TMO right at

the death. Managed the territory better and we have won the territory

battle comfortably, which obviously leads to applying pressure to a side

that have to score tries to get back in the game, so that worked out

well. Perhaps, obviously, a pleasing set piece performance in the scrum

with elements from both front rows which was important for us. Danny

Wilson a lot happier than last weekend and you previewed this on

Friday night and you said the Scarlets had a right to be worried

after last season, but they came out and bossed that game. How

significant a aroundaround is that considering what happened last week?

I think it's early days to say it's a must-win game. They go to Rodney

Parade on Friday. They bossed it. They have way too much talent to

have the results they've been having. Gareth Davies was

outstanding. That try he scored on the first try, this one here, I

don't know if there are many scrum halves or in the UK that will score

this. Two years ago he was seen as breaking true. He had a little last

-- through. He had a little lull last season, but he's coming on.

Everything seems to happen. He was in the squad for my last game with

Wales and he was the full package. And the yellow card, there's a dog

in there, which also helps. We talked about Lloyd Williams playing

for the Blues and how he is, the pretender to the throne for the

number nine, but for that, is Gareth Davies narrowing the gap? I think he

has. Lloyd is in number two position now and he's started well. That

performance has got to get you noticed. He is sharp and scores

tries from close and zan. He has a dog about him. He's a nuisance. For

me, it was the scrummage. Looking very, very good for Scarlets and we

all know footballers are all over the park and if they get the set

piece right they're capable of beating anyone, so they didn't lose

their focus or concentration against Treviso and kept the defensive

pattern, although they cut them a little. They need to work on that.

Good for them. For the second week, the Scarlets were looking powerful

in the scrum. That leads us on to the next item, which is all about

the scrummage. Last season we spent more time talking about this and it

was usually for the wrong reasons. The laws this season have been

tweaked slightly for safety reasons. We have been looking at whether or

not it will make a difference. The scrum - for the rugby outsider, it's

the thing that defines the game. A primal battle between two packs of

forwards, but what was once a compelling part of the game has

slowly become a blight. We are in a present mess. Action needed to be

taken and it has been. That's worked. First scrum, free kick. Who

better to gauge the success or otherwise of a new global trial than

former England hugger Brian Moore? It's not just me who is whinging

about this. The scrum is an obsession for him. Safety was the

main driver for the changes. Last season, this is what we heard and

saw. And nearly 60% of the time during the Six Nations it led to

this. This season, it has changed to this. Two weeks in and the Kpro 12

has only seen 18% of scrums collapse. Will the simple changes be

enough to solve the problems? It will go as far as it is possible,

but provided that not only is the new engagement sequence, which is

all that has changed. No, sir else. Everything else is the same and

always been there, but it's important that those laws are

refereed properly. In theory it should make it easier for the

referees. That's just a joke, isn't it? It will be a bit more

straightforward to referee. The fact that they've got the bind before you

engage and you've got to be at least now four heads -- forehead to

forehead, so 30% less impact on the hit. Common sense is going to tell

you there will be more chance of that scrum staying up. As well as

the new sequence, a number of laws which have been flouted for too long

will be enforced once more. Crooked feeds and early shoves have always

been illegal but tolerated for years. Not any more. The only change

is zero tolerance on it. Early engage, not taking the hit. Crooked

feet in the scrum. Delaying the feet in the scrum. If it's a free kick,

if you do it a second time, no matter what the time difference,

there will be a penalty. Third time, it will be a penalty and warning and

you do it a fourth time and it will be a penalty and a yellow card. As a

consequence of the laws, huggers will be forced to rediscover a

long-forgotten art, the art of hooking. It's more of an art now.

Rather than the old days and ploughing over. We will have to go

back to striking too. You have never done in your professional career?

Early days. I've been joking. There are those who think the hooker

balancing on one leg could be inviting injury. In the years that

have passed since hooking was required, packs have got much bigger

and much more powerful. They are saying it's really unsafe, because

you've got seven men where he has to lift his head up and it's called

hooking. What they're describing is a situation where if I have all my

weight on one foot and all the pressure is coming from a drive it's

difficult, because I'm resisting. However, you are not supposed to be

applying pressure and driving and shoving, before the ball leaves the

hands. With early shoves outlawed and the hookers are skilful, safety,

according to Brian, shouldn't be an issue. If you are good enough,

before that shove comes on legally you get it away. I'll show you how

quick it is. If I go there - that is is. I don't know. You have to time

it. It's less than a second. All clear then, so the critical question

is will these changes cure what has become the biggest ill in rugby?

This is the last chance for us to get this scrum right. It's a hugely

important part of the game and so it should be as well. We've got to the

stage where people there thinking it's a badge of honour, if I can't

ram down and push as hard as I can I'm not a man and you weren't

because you never had to do this. That's nonsense. It comes out

quickly. Is that not desirable, or do you want it to not come in, reset

twice, maybe come inened get driven back and collapse, penalty. Is that

better than in, out and go and play? If you think that you want your head

testing. A very opinionated man. What you didn't see there, he

challenged me to a one-on-one scrum, which was terrifying. He's been

banging on about that for years and years. He gets excited. He loves it.

He talks about it. He absolutely loves it. Two weeks into the new

season, we saw the statistic, 18% of scrums collapsing so far in the

competition. Has it made a difference? Every prop is shouting

at the TV now, so I don't want to talk it to death. Something had to

be done. I think the biggest thing from when I was a player was the hit

causing the major problem, even in training. As soon as you come to

live sessions as soon as it came on it collapsed. We've got to give it

time. It's hard to pass comment. The biggest issue is instead of

collapsed scrums, it's around feeding. You want a straight put in

and strike, but there are so many grey areas and - If you're not an

authority then you are. We used to go channel one and two and hooking

was a big part. We were not the strongest scrum. We threw the ball

in and the hooker striked it and came back. We got it out quickly.

And when I played for Wales too. I understand what - we knew what ball

we wanted to attack with and strengths and weaknesses. I think

Brian is right. Hooking is hooking the ball and things have changed,

but it's an entertainment sport we're in, is the scrummage has

become a joke and now it's gone from collapsing and the biggest joke is

the crooked feet. Well, I think if the referees have got to be strong

on this and everyone else has to support them and if they say, right,

not straight, do it next time, you're a yellow card, if it's the

case he's off. And the next one, then another yellow card. It

happened in League when we were trying to outlaw head-high shots.

Everyone was swinging arms and you copped one on the face, the chin and

nose. Then yellow cards and reds. Some weeks we were playing with two

or three men sent off each side and the scores were 40-40. Slowly,

because the directive had come from the League we got into the high

tackles. The odd ones slipped in, but we have to support the referees

and they've got to be vigilant in penalising people. That's the key.

Let's hope they will be. Moving on to the Premiership. It kicked off

this weekend. Entertaining here. Scott Williams

crossed for the visitors' second try, but two tries from the

defending champions in the last minute denied a victory. Neath were

leaders at half time by Llanelli came back. Josh Lewis crossed line.

There was this try from Arran Jones. They won. Quins looked sharper and

were rewarded with six tries. Jason Harris there. The Premiership season

kicks off this weekend. We are here at St Helens for the Swansea match

and to catch up with a former Wales fullback to hear about his new job.

Just over two years ago, after failing to recovery fully from a

double fracture, Morgan decided to retire. Was it difficult for you

mentally to close the door on your playing career and open the new door

into coaching? It wasn't something I was thinking about. I was coaching

the local team and then Cross Kus got in touch and I was chuffed. I

was keen to get on board and it happens over a few days. What are

your expectations? I think the same again. Top three. We've got a few

quality additions to the squad. Depth and strength and it's a long

season. Everyone will play, so the squad will be fine. I hear you'll

have to hold someone for the final? I've got to leave after half time

for a family wedding, so I'm going to the church. They arrived at St

Helens following two convincing wins in the British and Irish Cup, but it

was a scrappy affair and a close battle of the goal kickers. The

visitors never looked like losing, even though they missed out on

several chances, despite being one man down. Half-time score was 6. 9

and mark an is leaving due to the family wedding. Eventually a try

came with the second half. Dan Hodges crossing over in the 69th

minute, making it 19-6. But the try of the game came from the all-whites

winger Richard Williams with just four minutes left. Not even two

yellow cards and a minute could help Swansea's late comeback. I said to

the guys, talking about it after a win and after a loss. You have a new

recruit in morgue an. How is he fitting in? Breath of fresh air. He

hasn't lost yet, so he's a lucky mascot at the moment. He brings his

knowledge from the professional game and early days. In challenging

conditions and after pressure, the home side's second try came when

Warren powered over. A late surge recorded in Nick White's try. A

round-up of Friday night's games starting with Edinburgh and the

Dragons. The DaGions travelled north looking to make it two from two.

Reece Thomas inherited the skipper's armband and Richie Rees lined up

against their old side. Nicky Walker was making his debut for Edinburgh.

That's good. DaGions take a lead early on. -- Dragons take a lead

early on. Edinburgh are now into the lead. Pressure from Edinburgh in the

second half. Sean Kennedy and Leonard. The fullback there. The

number eight. Can he step the path? It had to come.

That scrum of Edinburgh's in the ascendency for the whole of the

match. This is to win it. That's good enough. In the last minute the

players worked hard and put a lot of grit and showed commitment and

belief. We just are not there yet. We are not sure how to close the

games out. It's a big positive in terms of how disappointed we are.

It's a fine line coming away with a draw and defeat. We deserved a draw.

It was the first competitive match for the Blues on their new

artificial pitch and for Alex Cuthbert. Connacts with the --

Connact were the opponents and they were hoping to spoil the party.

That's the way to use the ball. Simply and effectively.

Let's have a TMO. That is a high tackle, but he was going down.

Just the penalty. He was itching. Itching to get the yellow card out.

The Blues have certainly picked their game up in the second half.

To a man they all deserve Man of the Match. Massive effort. As a ten and

when Gareth came on it was our job to keep him going forward. The other

weekend's results: Good result for the Blues in

terrible conditions. On the subject, plenty of speculation in the papers

about Sam Warburton leaving Wales. One paper says he's on his way. He

does want to stay there and hopefully that's the case. If that

is the case, Jonathan, how much have they pushed him? I thought you would

ask him. It's simple. I think those two lads will want to stay in Wales.

Lee half penny and Sam. Ones a Cardiff boy and one is another good

boy and if the package is right they would prefer to stay in Wales, but

when the money is so good and if there is a threat of no Heineken

Cup, well, they want to play at the best level and I think it's a job to

keep them with the regions, but in keeping the Cup going and getting

the quality competition, week in week out in Wales. We know the Welsh

regions can't complete with the Welsh clubs, so should the WABU come

in? I think we had this discussion last year. You have to pay top

dollar for a player you see the least, which doesn't seem fair. It's

out of their budgets and something has to be done. We have John Davies

at Scarlets coming out and Lee and Sam. It's great for them. I think

the boys will want to stay, but it's down to the individual. Some offers

and the figures you are hearing are too good to refuse. But hopefully

between the regions and the union they can come up with something. If

you look at Adam, Jones Evans, Jonathan Davies and maybe Biggar,

looking at the core guys and saying we are trying to supplement these

ones and then maybe 1st January if you go abroad you can't play for

Wales. Interesting. We'll have to leave it there. We have Extra Time

to delve into this and we'll talk about the Dragons and previewing

their game against the Scarlets next Friday night. We'll catch up with

Rick and he went to the old parish. Some technical difficulties. We'll

bring you that feature in just a few moments, but we can maybe talk about

the Dragons and Scarlets. It's the feature on Friday. In Thames of the

shape they're going into this -- terms of the shape they're going

into it, will the Rodney Parade factor come into play? It normally

does. They had a great win against ultraster. Welsh derbies are

difficult to call because the boys know each other and the referee will

have a big influence. Seeing the last clip, the scrum is going to be

massive and at the moment I think the Scarlets' scrum is on top, so

that could be the deciding factor on Friday. Why is that? You look at the

Scarlets and very few people come in and the personnel hasn't changed,

but all of a sudden they seemed to have fashioned this

formidable-looking scrum? The new laws maybe suit them. They've played

two good scrummaging sides and they've done well. I think it's

interesting because if that is wrong, I don't know we haven't seen

the Dragons first hand, but they've improved a hell of a lotoned it will

be interesting to see how much they've improved and it will be a

test, because a lot of the faithfuls will expect a good result, and

performance. I do feel that the result against ultraster they'll

kick the lather of it and they'll have the back row working and if

they can kick five penalties they'll be happy. It will be a tactical game

and give the Scarlets the ball and leave them attacking and see what

happens. It's a first local regional derby and it will be interesting. At

the moment, I do feel, because of the scrum, it will -- they'll be

favourites. There was a lot of positivity with the appointment of

Kingsley Jones and new blood there. Toby there also. Given that, how

much of a statement would it be if they turned over the Scarlets in the

first Welsh derby in front of the home fans? Still early days. Third

game in, but I think if you said you will have five points off the first

two they would have taken that. Ulster home is difficult. I know

they were disappointed over the line, but it's still a valuable

point. They need a back-up against the Scarlets and I think you'll find

there are a lot things to come. It will be close and tense and I just

agree with Jonathan that perhaps the Scarlets' fire power at the front

will edge it. What about cutting-edge behind? George North

and Christian Philips who started the finish is injured and they

haven't got the New Zealander signing until November. We saw a

glimpse of Jordan Williams and Gareth at fullback and Liam

Williams. Have they got more out wide? It's very difficult to replace

George North. He is a world-class athlete and he's a finisher and ball

carrier and he breaks the leaBs. I don't -- lanes. I don't think

they've got that, but they will take it to the line. Thank you.

Apologies, as I said, for that feature, but you can see it on

Extra, which is coming up straight after this programme. Go on to the

website, log on and we'll be here for another half an hour to talk

about all the rugby stories. From now, from the studio, it's goodbye

for now.