08/07/2011 The Review Show


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08/07/2011

Round table arts and culture discussion programme. Kirsty Wark is joined by guests including Paul Morley and Natalie Haynes to discuss the Magritte exhibition at Tate Liverpool.


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Tonight on the review show, the world but not as we all know it.

:00:09.:00:19.
:00:19.:00:22.

Spiritual, venal, surreal and Terrence Malick's personal,

:00:22.:00:26.

emotional Palme d'Or winning, The Tree Of Life, will it capture a new

:00:26.:00:34.

audience. Some day we will fall down and weep. Sam Mendes and Kevin

:00:34.:00:39.

spacey together again n a modern setting of Richard III, is there

:00:39.:00:48.

sympathy for this devil? Hats, pipes and trains, is the

:00:48.:00:52.

Magritte exhibition at Liverpool suitably surreal. Love, loss and

:00:52.:00:56.

libido in the devastation of war in the adaptation of Sarah Waters's

:00:56.:01:05.

novel, The Night Watch. I think it is easy to be brave in war time.

:01:05.:01:15.
:01:15.:01:18.

Plus, folk rock taub dor - Troubadour performing.

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Joining me to chew over the cultural week are Sarah Churchwell,

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writer and broadcaster, Paul Morley, comedian and writer, Natalie Haynes,

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and last but not least, film historian, Matthew Sweet. And as

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ever, we look forward to hearing from your tweets too.

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In a movie career spanning four decades, reclusive author, Terrence

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Malick, has directed five films, beginning with the ground-breaking

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Badlands in 1973, we propelled Martin Sheen and Sissy Spacek to

:01:50.:01:57.

stardom. His latest people, The Tree Of Life was releeld to the

:01:57.:02:01.

Cannes Film Festival to standing ovations and a few boos, and walked

:02:01.:02:06.

off with the Palme d'Or prize. Has it been worth the wait for this

:02:06.:02:13.

highly anticipated movie. Some day we will fall down and weep. We

:02:13.:02:18.

won't understand at all. We will understand all things. Starring

:02:18.:02:25.

Brad Pitt, Jessica Chastain and Sean Penn, The Tree Of Life looks

:02:25.:02:31.

into human existence, through the film lens of a 1950s family,

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focusing on Jack, the eldest of three brothers.

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Amidst the golden glow of endless summer, we follow Jack's journaly

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through childhood innocence, witnessed in a series of stylised

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shots, his angelic bond with his loving mother, but a more complex

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relationship with his disciplinarian father. What are you

:02:59.:03:08.

doing son. The adult Jack is played by Sean

:03:08.:03:12.

Penn, a disillusioned man, cast adrift amongst the steel and glass

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of the modern world, looking back on the lessons of his childhood.

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Father, mother, always you wrestle inside me. Although framed by the

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death of one of Jack's younger brothers, the film has an

:03:29.:03:33.

impressionistic, non-linear narrative that operates on an ind

:03:34.:03:39.

mit and panoramic scale, exploring metaphysical questions of life and

:03:39.:03:46.

death. With dramatic scenes on the origin of the planet and the huge

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Cosmos. Malick also employs his characteristic signatures of

:03:50.:03:55.

imagery, sweeping music score and internal monolougue. Unless you

:03:55.:04:03.

love, your life will flash by. such immense themes, big questions

:04:03.:04:08.

and painter's canvas, has he created a film that will appeal

:04:08.:04:12.

broader than his loyal and patient fan base. Lots of patience, because

:04:12.:04:18.

it was ready in 2008, it is six years since his last film, one

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senses Malick has been thinking about this since he was a little

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boy. I have a lot of time for Terrence Malick, you need to,

:04:24.:04:29.

because the films are so long and the gaps between them are so huge.

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All the other films are masterpiece, I wauted for this one to overwhelm

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- I waited for this one to overwhelm me, it didn't happen.

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Despite the beautiful images there are vulgar things in it, the CGI

:04:45.:04:51.

dinosaurs down the river. Is it creationism? It is a religious film

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too, this is where some of the vulgarity comes from. We get this

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image of the afterlife that looks like something from the Halifax

:04:59.:05:06.

advert. Sean Penn wandering around on the beach with families being

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reunited. Or something from the cover of a Christian self-help book.

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Do you really have to have something that's cut and dried.

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Terrence Malick's films aren't cut and dried, there is room for lots

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of interpretation in this, you don't have to have a big storyline?

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There is room for lots of interpretation, read the reviews.

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Some people think he's an architect and engineer, Sean Penn, some think

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he's the darker and light child. Whose bedroom is he in when he goes

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through the underwear drawer, you have to pay attention. That is no

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bad thing? That is the thing for me, it looks beautiful, it is a sign of

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my vulgarity, this is what I like, a story, a really good story, and

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the kind of punch of the story is taken away, we see at the very

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beginning, not just the little boy dying, but that information comes

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via a telegram, you go OK, so he's away from home when he dies. You

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have this incredibly Spence-filled family dynamic. It are too hard

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work? We are going to say this film is a difficult thing to watch and

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throw out a good bit of thinking. I would rather watch this than

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Transformers, when I came out of the film tonight and people going

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in for the other showing. The film ended in stunned silence, it is

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either good or bad, but it is something. I wanted to say to

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people outside, I didn't know if I wanted to say don't go in or go in.

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I couldn't make my mind up. Whether it would be something very exciting

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or not. That is maybe dialogue Terrence Malick might think of at

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10.00 in the morning! It is like a series of high-level home movies,

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some happen to be at the beginning of time and the big bang. I'm not

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sure if we are being fair, it is a movie that does. That it is two

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different movies stitched together, one of the movies is fanttationia,

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it is the - Fantasia, it is the origins of man through the

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dinosaurs, joined with the story of a coming of age, a very familiar

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intimate small story about coming of age with a young man. With an

:07:29.:07:33.

extraordinary performance by the boy who plays Jack. By all the

:07:33.:07:43.
:07:43.:07:43.

children. And Brad Pitt giving a very fine performance. It was to be

:07:43.:07:49.

Heath Ledger, and Brad Pitt to produce: the beauty of it, we can't

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gloss over, that it is spectacularly beautiful. The music

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is spectacular but also very over the top. I think another of his

:07:57.:08:02.

missteps is the music. For something that is meant to be

:08:02.:08:06.

something like Kubrick, his timing with the use of music is slipshod,

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I don't think he does it well. is a very, very fragile film. It is

:08:10.:08:14.

a film that is really affected by the context in which you watch it.

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At the press screening there was an air of difference silence, people

:08:20.:08:23.

were afraid to swallow their crisps too loudly to disrush those around

:08:23.:08:30.

him. I saw it in a public - disrupt those around him. I saw it in a

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public screening in Paris and people were laughing at it. Hunter

:08:35.:08:40.

as the older boy, the children hadn't acted before, Terrence

:08:40.:08:43.

Malick dealt with them in a very interesting way, he told them very

:08:43.:08:49.

little about what will happen. These are young kids. What they

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delivered was something quite mesmeric. He has coaxed something

:08:53.:08:58.

very wonderful out of them. whole idea that the basis of this

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film has something important at the centre. The internal monolougue of

:09:02.:09:07.

the wife saying is it about grace and nature. She's about grace and

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the husband about nature. problem with the film, ultimately,

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I felt as if I had assigned to an undergraduate to ask them to

:09:16.:09:21.

interpret a coming of age story set in Texas. They would have said in

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order to do this I must go back to the big bang, go through images of

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women and look at religion, I would say, you can, but you don't have to,

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it doesn't add too much. We have all done it, I'm reminded of

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Charley cough man's adaptation, you go dr Kaufman's adaptation, and you

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go further back and further back and further back. To God.

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I felt that he was very much, I couldn't work out if he was

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completely out of his depth and can only con cinema critics, we are

:09:56.:10:01.

easy to do that to, because we are always looking, I'm thinking of you

:10:01.:10:11.
:10:11.:10:16.

as a film historian. Does this make him the auteur's autuere. He's so

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venerated it is difficult to criticise him. He's very

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pretentious, it is philosophically pretentious, but asthetically

:10:24.:10:29.

gorgeous, that is why people still love him. He doesn't always hold up

:10:29.:10:33.

to the veneration he's given. don't know what you take from Paul

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Morley's go or don't go, if you want to go The Tree Of Life is in

:10:40.:10:43.

cinemas now. Kevin Space is at home on the screen, but his main focus

:10:43.:10:48.

of the last 12 years has been the Old Vic theatre in London. His day

:10:48.:10:55.

job there is of artistic director, but he has contorted himself into

:10:55.:11:01.

the Shakespearian villain of villains, Richard III, in Sam

:11:01.:11:08.

Mendes's latest production. Richard III has been a frequent presence on

:11:08.:11:12.

the stage, played by Laurence Olivier and Ian McKellen to name a

:11:12.:11:19.

few, it is the blueprint for a coup d'etat. One thing that still

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commands the imagination is Laurence Olivier's portrayal of the

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bad boy on screen and the stage of the Old Vic itself. Olivier's

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theatre has welcomed back the play, this time under the direction of

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Sam Mendes, and the Old Vic's artistic directsor, Kevin Space,

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taking the lead role. The last time they worked together was on the

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1999 Oscar Garlanded film, American Beauty. They have both previous

:11:46.:11:53.

experience of the play. Mendes directed a production in 1992, and

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Space played Buckingham opposite Al Pachino's Richard on screen. This

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comes to the end of a three-year victory, with Sam Mendes bringing

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much screen talent to the play. Space joins a leg caliper, a claw-

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like glove for a hand, and a military uniform with echos of

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dictators. Richard meets the force of royal and regular GAL, Gemma

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Jones's Annabel Scholey and Niall Quinn give as good as they get.

:12:31.:12:41.
:12:41.:12:49.

Does Space steal the show? Did he steal the show? He did for

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me, he's a cerebral actor and he liked it. It works very well with

:12:54.:13:00.

the role it's the arch manipulator, that is the point. I spoke to a few

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people who said he didn't emotionally inhabit the role.

:13:04.:13:12.

Richard III, it is a post fraudian idea to think we need to know his

:13:12.:13:16.

emotional ambition, we see in the news this week that material

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motivation is enough to make people do bad things and he wants the

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Crown. He plays all the layers of Richard's man nip laigs and comedy

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and shifting and his anger - man nip laigs and comedy and shifting

:13:32.:13:42.
:13:42.:13:44.

and his anger. When he's offered the crown three times we see close

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ups on the screen. What about the cinematography, that is great?

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is an interview, it seems to be a live relay, this isn't some kind of

:13:53.:13:58.

dangerous work they are doing with recording material. I wondered

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about, Spacey, this is inevitable in a production, but he dwarfs

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everybody, apart from the women. I wonder, I hate to blame the

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Americans, because they have to take the blame for everything, but

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there is something about an American actor saying the word

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"Tamworth", or "Leicester", that I can't quite take seriously! On a

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serious point of Tim dwarfing the other actors - him dwarfing the ear

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actors, in the very long - the other actors, in the very long

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first half the other actors don't seem to figure. It is Spacey's show,

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it all falls away behind him, he's constantly on, he's thinking, the

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extraordinary energy he emits. It is the cinematic Richard III.

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his cinema career, it is the twisted leg to remind us of the

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Union Suspects,s had the head in the box we reminds us of Seven.

:15:03.:15:10.

There is a small homage to all the films he has been in. It is

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brilliantly clever. I have said it before, Shakespeare is a very good

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HBO box-office writer. That constant sense of drama. Spacey has

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elevated it above any problems of Tudor propaganda or the cripple

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being made out to be evil. It is sheer performance, it is not even

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history just sheer performance. a sense it was a shame in the first

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half, I thought, that the relationship with Buckingham

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couldn't be intense enough to actually bring that alive as

:15:41.:15:47.

someone else that was acting alongside him? Spacey seemed to act

:15:47.:15:52.

as if Buckingham was OK. He still seemed to be reacting. In a sense

:15:53.:15:58.

it works, it is a strange way to look at their relationship, you

:15:58.:16:04.

don't get the pain of it. You do get the idea as Buckingham as a

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spin doctor, it works well, particularly for putting the idea

:16:08.:16:11.

of the play across to the audience. It is a populist version of the

:16:11.:16:15.

play. Some purists won't like that, it is playing to a crowd, it is

:16:15.:16:18.

presuming you don't understand what is happening. I think it works

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really well, it is putting across theatrically what the underlining

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meanings of the story are. What happens is you have the very long

:16:26.:16:30.

first half, you are slightly concerned that it is going to be

:16:30.:16:37.

Spacey, Spacey and Spacey, then the glorious change of gear with Haydn

:16:37.:16:42.

Gwynne and Annabel Scholey, it is extraordinary how these women can

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completely command the stage and challenge him in every way. Haydn

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Gwynne especially, the scene where he's Bartering for her daughter's

:16:50.:16:55.

hand, he's reminding him he has killed everyone else she's related

:16:55.:17:01.

to apart from this daughter. I was sitting there properly jaw-dropped,

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you realise there is someone else on stage who can go toe-to-toe and

:17:08.:17:14.

jaw-to-jaw. She relished it, and it drew attention to the other guys

:17:14.:17:18.

not. This first two hours were testing, to choose to break the

:17:18.:17:21.

show at that point was really quite brilliant. That moment that he's

:17:21.:17:26.

crowned. To come back from the same scene with a different perspective

:17:26.:17:31.

altered. There was a good reason for having wimpy men, it works well

:17:31.:17:35.

with him as a modern dictator, and once again the news this week, we

:17:35.:17:38.

are sitting thinking, big terrifying significant at the core

:17:38.:17:43.

and satellite wimpy people around him. Women with wild hair, I'm

:17:43.:17:50.

feeling this is kind of working for me. Life on Richard III could be

:17:50.:17:53.

the dramatisation of News of the World. You can't get away from it.

:17:53.:17:57.

There is a serious point here, I have never seen a production of

:17:57.:18:02.

Richard III where I thought the women mattered in the way they do

:18:02.:18:06.

in this production. Things with Queen Margaret, you think actually

:18:06.:18:10.

she's important here. They overplayed it by the end. They like

:18:10.:18:14.

decision that is are also very Machiavellian in themselves, I

:18:14.:18:17.

thought that was really good. brings out the strength of the way

:18:17.:18:22.

these characters are writen, and they are the - written, they are

:18:22.:18:26.

tend to be the dopey and wimpy ones, that is a question of direction and

:18:27.:18:30.

performance. You realise as it is written these people can be

:18:30.:18:33.

incredibly powerful. A quick word on The Bridge Project, that is

:18:33.:18:37.

three years, a success? I don't know, I think they have all, they

:18:37.:18:41.

have all dropped where somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic, these

:18:41.:18:45.

productions. Something happens when actors from these two different

:18:45.:18:53.

cultures get together. It slows everything down. Jeff goldbloom and

:18:53.:18:57.

Sissy Spacek? Some of them have been terribly show. What happens

:18:57.:19:00.

when critics of different things get together. It is much more

:19:00.:19:05.

successful, clearly. It continues until September, with handful of

:19:05.:19:08.

tickets available. Pipes, bowler hats, trains, are some of the every

:19:08.:19:11.

day objects that Rene Magritte painted over and over again. In

:19:11.:19:18.

infusing them with new meaning, or maybe not, intentionally, or maybe

:19:18.:19:21.

not. The Pleasure Principle is the first major British retrospective

:19:21.:19:26.

of the work of the Belgian surrealist in 20 years. Including

:19:26.:19:30.

the familiar iconic paintings and little seen photographs, commercial

:19:30.:19:40.
:19:40.:19:52.

What we were trying to do in Liverpool is to stage a number of

:19:52.:19:56.

important exhibitions which look at particular aspects of important

:19:56.:20:01.

figures in 20th century art, Magritte now, and trying to put a

:20:01.:20:04.

different angle on well known figures. Magritte is one of the

:20:04.:20:09.

most popular artists there is. He's a poster boy of Surrealism. What we

:20:09.:20:14.

tried to do is look behind that facade of normality that he

:20:14.:20:19.

presented and see how powerful his work still is. Magritte is a

:20:19.:20:25.

perennially popular artist, but with this appeal comes the risk of

:20:25.:20:33.

overfamiliarity. In a bid to dispel our preconceptions of the work,

:20:33.:20:37.

Tate Liverpool has put the show under different headings.

:20:37.:20:41.

In this show you have all of the iconic works, you have the pipes

:20:41.:20:45.

and the apple, you have the clouds, you have the train coming out of

:20:45.:20:49.

the mantlepiece, you have the man in the bowler hats, all the icons

:20:49.:20:53.

are here. But at the same time you will see the unknown Magritte, the

:20:53.:20:57.

painter Magritte, the breaks in his work, where he suddenly paints

:20:57.:21:00.

completely sloppy and expressive, that is what makes his work

:21:00.:21:09.

interesting. The exhibition also showcases the

:21:09.:21:13.

commercial work of his advertising days, and surrealist home movies

:21:13.:21:22.

with his wife and muse, Georgette. Magritte, maybe more than any other

:21:22.:21:27.

of the surrealist, has created images that are instantly

:21:27.:21:32.

recoginsable, but they are complex. The dommin I don't know of day and

:21:32.:21:37.

night, - dommin I don't know of the day and night, perfectly executed,

:21:37.:21:41.

simple but also intriguing, disturbing, puzzling, that is a

:21:41.:21:49.

power of his. The excuse is perfect, simple and effective though the

:21:49.:21:59.
:21:59.:22:05.

Paul, did you get a sense from this exhibition that although you knew

:22:05.:22:09.

about Magritte you only had passing acquaintance before? He is one of

:22:09.:22:13.

my favourite artists, I did think I knew enough. There were surprising

:22:13.:22:17.

turns. I got the feeling the exhibition was trying to recover

:22:17.:22:23.

his reputation a bit, he's obviously overexposed, a lot of the

:22:23.:22:29.

cliches in kitsch world could be sourced back to Magritte, he has a

:22:29.:22:33.

lesser reputation. I got the impression they were trying to

:22:33.:22:42.

position him more to DeJomp, I thought if he's more a Bob Dylan! I

:22:42.:22:46.

got this sense that it is the thing about being overfamiliar with these

:22:46.:22:49.

exhibitions is will the exhibition itself transform the reputation of

:22:49.:22:54.

Magritte or will the individual works. Or the shop? The shop is

:22:54.:22:58.

handily placed at the end of of the familiar paintings. What I found

:22:58.:23:04.

that was thrilling, frs not so much the exhibition or how it was

:23:04.:23:09.

curated, and there was a lot of great work, and it made me see how

:23:09.:23:14.

he thought, I got into the idea of the paintings not the exhibition.

:23:14.:23:24.
:23:24.:23:29.

In an exhibition it will deral and desting Surrealism, it - it will

:23:29.:23:32.

devalue Surrealism. It didn't do that.

:23:32.:23:36.

I kind of felt like Magritte is one of those people who got turned into

:23:36.:23:44.

too many posters. The great moment in the Thomas Crown Affair, where

:23:44.:23:49.

everyone pretends to be somebody from Magritte. I was excite today

:23:49.:23:55.

see it away from the tea towels and all that, you can see it at the end,

:23:55.:23:59.

you have the perfect moment of repcation, here are ten or eight

:23:59.:24:02.

different versions of men in bowler hat, and here you can take your

:24:02.:24:08.

own! I found it really intriguing, there were lots of paintings I knew,

:24:08.:24:13.

and far more that I didn't know, especially the comic book of this

:24:14.:24:21.

figure, the Phantomas, he's a cat burglar and criminal, there he is

:24:21.:24:29.

suddenly turned into a Magritte. The Basque, the erotica there was

:24:29.:24:37.

so much, the bad period, the Renoiresque stuff, there was a

:24:37.:24:41.

complete fabulousness of Magritte in all his periods. I'm not sure if

:24:41.:24:46.

I felt the fabulousness or much pleasure, frankly. I remember when

:24:46.:24:53.

they did George Melly on Through The Keyhole, and Lloyd Grossman

:24:53.:24:58.

went around snooping and it was full of surrealist art, I thought

:24:58.:25:07.

there was nothing good enough to put in George Melly's bathroom.

:25:07.:25:11.

think he's amazing. That was the stuff I wasn't nearly as familiar

:25:11.:25:15.

with as I thought I was. It was one of those exhibitions where I

:25:15.:25:19.

realised I didn't know Magritte at all. I thought I was passingly

:25:19.:25:22.

acquainted with him. Particularly he has all these paintings where

:25:22.:25:26.

he's playing with language and he has all these ideas about

:25:26.:25:30.

literalism, and then representing what the idea might be in its

:25:30.:25:33.

relationship to language. Some worked better than others, but the

:25:33.:25:37.

way in which he was thinking conceptually about what he was

:25:37.:25:40.

trying to do and questions about ideas and representation. I think

:25:40.:25:43.

he does the kinds of things that Terrence Malick thinks he does and

:25:44.:25:49.

doesn't do. There was some things of equisite beauty, hi no idea that

:25:49.:25:56.

the Domain of Skaf life had been done, 16 times. When you see them

:25:56.:26:01.

all there. Thu suddenly lit up like Turner, you could see the technique

:26:01.:26:08.

that was there, that I had also underappreciated, he made it really

:26:08.:26:13.

beautiful. In a way he withdrew behind the bowler hat and created

:26:13.:26:19.

this image of himself. But for that anonymity, he was constantly

:26:19.:26:24.

present, he was sending himself to the future in a way that outdoes

:26:24.:26:29.

Andy Warhol and Hirst, he was replicating his own reputation.

:26:29.:26:36.

of the paintings, which until two years ago nobody knew had a mirror

:26:36.:26:40.

image partner, it was only just found two years ago? Amazing, and

:26:40.:26:45.

the question of whether he did it because there are two customers.

:26:45.:26:51.

That is the exact type of anecdote I want to find out at an exhibition.

:26:51.:26:55.

My problem with the exhibition is I wished because it actually covers

:26:55.:27:00.

the long career of a man who lived a long time. I actually think they

:27:00.:27:03.

overegged the pudding, they could have gone for the more straight

:27:03.:27:07.

forward chronological, so we could see the way his ideas developed.

:27:07.:27:13.

Here is a painter, I'm grumpy about this, it is a painter playing with

:27:13.:27:17.

the idea of banality, that is a dangerous game to play. They seem

:27:17.:27:20.

to be representations of a moment when something was dead pan and

:27:20.:27:23.

something was cool. I wonder whether the dead bit isn't the bit

:27:23.:27:29.

that seems most apparent, to my eye. These all seem very flat and

:27:29.:27:33.

unexcited. I know they play with the idea of flatness, and

:27:33.:27:40.

unexcitingness. But still for me. There is a lot of value in terms of

:27:40.:27:43.

the idea of the mystery of appearance. There was all those

:27:43.:27:47.

things that seemed like cliches before I went and suddenly came

:27:47.:27:52.

alive again. What excited me was the commercial art, actually. The

:27:52.:27:57.

vitality of that, the vitality of his film posters, and his orange

:27:57.:28:02.

juice adverts seemed to be more. was not about designing wallpaper,

:28:02.:28:07.

the whole exhibition was like a wallpaper sample board, full of

:28:07.:28:16.

unbelievable images. The back room with porn too. No time for that!

:28:16.:28:21.

The Pleasure Principle continues at Tate Liverpool until October.

:28:21.:28:27.

Award-winning author, Sarah Waters is renowned for historical novels,

:28:27.:28:33.

known as lesbian historical romps. The books have proved popular with

:28:33.:28:38.

TV audiences, The Night Watch has been adapted for BBC. In a

:28:38.:28:43.

departure from her usual Irene that it is September after the Second

:28:43.:28:47.

World War. We spoke to Sarah Waters and about why her new work lends

:28:47.:28:53.

itself to television. It is like her putting on a display

:28:53.:29:00.

just for us. Bravo. . I'm pretty much an old fashioned

:29:00.:29:03.

storyteller. I like plots, characterisation, dialogue. I'm

:29:03.:29:08.

part of a generation of people who grew up watching an awful lot of

:29:08.:29:12.

tele, films. I know when I'm writing a scene, usually I

:29:12.:29:16.

visualise it and write down what I'm seeing in my head. Following

:29:16.:29:22.

the lives and losses of four Londoner, The Night Watch explores

:29:22.:29:26.

the convolume luted emotional relationships and seemingly abitary

:29:26.:29:31.

connection that is interlink the main characters. My starting point

:29:31.:29:40.

for the novel was writing about relationships that had failed. The

:29:40.:29:44.

Victorian novels had young women at the start of their lives. For this

:29:44.:29:48.

I wanted to write about women my own age who had done that and

:29:48.:29:52.

moving on to something else. And dealing with the problems of

:29:52.:29:58.

relationships. Anna Maxwell Martin is Kay, an androgynous loner,

:29:58.:30:08.

scarred by emotional loss and scarred by his experience as an

:30:08.:30:14.

ambulance driverburg the blitz. were - during the blitz. You were

:30:14.:30:21.

the bravest person I know. It is easy to be brave in the war.

:30:21.:30:25.

Duncan, played by Harry Treadaway hides a dark secret, and battles

:30:25.:30:29.

with his own sexual desires. What so there is no shame in the army

:30:29.:30:34.

making you into a murderer, as long as for king and country it is OK to

:30:34.:30:38.

have blood on your hand. You want to talk about shame, you wait until

:30:38.:30:41.

you are out of here and you can't walk down the street without people

:30:41.:30:46.

pointing at you. The drama follows the unusual narrative structure of

:30:46.:30:52.

the novel, beginning during the period of reconstruction in 1947,

:30:52.:30:56.

and jumping back in time to 1944 and 1941 and the chaos of horrors

:30:56.:31:01.

of the blitz. As each character's past actions are revealed, their

:31:01.:31:07.

present and futures are explained. When I was writing The Night Watch,

:31:07.:31:11.

I thought nobody will want to adapt this. Everyone is a bit glum in it,

:31:11.:31:16.

for one thing, it has this rather difficult structure where it moves

:31:16.:31:22.

backwards. It was a technical challenge, but I enjoy that. I do

:31:22.:31:28.

like figuring out how best to tell a story. So has its film succeeded

:31:28.:31:32.

in capturing the war and post-war time atmosphere and the emotion of

:31:32.:31:36.

fraught and fractured lives. They say romance is dead.

:31:36.:31:40.

Natalie, you have come to this fresh, without reading the book.

:31:40.:31:45.

Saved myself some time too, well done. Do you get the atmosphere of

:31:45.:31:49.

the fear and recklessness and excitement and bravery attached to

:31:49.:31:54.

the war? Yes, all of those things are there. Also it is beautifully

:31:54.:31:59.

shot. You can feel the fabrics that everyone is wearing t made me feel

:31:59.:32:02.

strangely closer to the war than the future for the first time in a

:32:02.:32:09.

really long time. And I think it is really carried by its performers,

:32:09.:32:12.

Anna Maxwell Martin is just about as good a TV actor that is working

:32:12.:32:16.

at the moment. She's extraordinary. Once she's on the screen, she eats

:32:16.:32:20.

it, it doesn't matter how good the people around her are, she's all

:32:20.:32:25.

I'm focusing on. I never say this, I have been doing this programme

:32:25.:32:31.

for five years, do you know, it could have gone on longer, what

:32:31.:32:37.

about two episodes. They short changed the story? I think they

:32:37.:32:40.

have squadered one of the hottest literary properties that there has

:32:40.:32:45.

been in a decade or so. Why wasn't this three episodes when we could

:32:45.:32:51.

have really delved into the world. Given that we are right now airing

:32:51.:32:55.

Duncan Pearce a very silly novel, given this incredible reverential

:32:55.:33:00.

treatment. And you think here is a very good novel that deserves that

:33:01.:33:06.

five hours of attention. That was my problem, it whistles through it.

:33:06.:33:09.

I'm wondering if the chronological thing needs to work in a complete

:33:09.:33:13.

space, split over there it would be less. It is great in the book I

:33:13.:33:19.

love that thing, Terrence Malick has missed a bit of a thing. It has

:33:19.:33:23.

this sense of after the war, when we find them, everything is

:33:23.:33:28.

fragmented and broken up. People are broken? Then we go back to

:33:28.:33:33.

piece it together. It works wonderfully. To an extent it was

:33:33.:33:37.

sort of experimental in the book, but here it works so well. That may

:33:37.:33:43.

be why they needed to do it in one space. It is like a cousin to Scott

:33:43.:33:46.

and Bailey, the detective series set in the north, with the women at

:33:46.:33:53.

the front and men hin. It is so refreshing. One of the amazing

:33:53.:34:00.

things, the dialogue is terrific, it is not overblown, not

:34:00.:34:04.

sentimental it is heart wrenching? It is precisely researched, the

:34:04.:34:08.

work that went into the novel, the work went in to research war time

:34:08.:34:13.

prison life, all of that is transferred to the screen, very

:34:13.:34:19.

effective, the sub cultures between conscientious objectives and that.

:34:19.:34:23.

The film does this very well, it is a film populated by adults, that is

:34:23.:34:28.

a good thing, they had the guts to keep it adult. They haven't dumbed

:34:28.:34:32.

it down or patronised it, except the crucial bit of them deciding

:34:32.:34:38.

they needed to rewind for those of us who couldn't read 1947 and then

:34:38.:34:45.

1941. History tends to be sentimentalised

:34:45.:34:51.

and later in the war and after the war, apart from anything else it

:34:51.:34:55.

provide as great historical service. I hadn't realised that so many

:34:55.:35:00.

people actively didn't go to the bunkers, they wanted to see what

:35:00.:35:05.

was happening, it was almost like come and get me. Everyone was limb

:35:05.:35:11.

rated from their positions, they could anticipate things.

:35:11.:35:15.

finally get gay war time London instead of gay war time Berlin.

:35:15.:35:20.

a sense it wasn't a novel I think about gay love, it was a novel

:35:20.:35:26.

about a coming of age of women, and very much in the same way of the

:35:26.:35:30.

munitions with the First World War, in the Second World War they were

:35:30.:35:34.

taking charge of all sorts. Women's sexuality is at the heart of it,

:35:34.:35:39.

but it is not always about at the sire, it is certainly not all about

:35:39.:35:44.

lesbian sexuality, but there is questions about women's rights.

:35:44.:35:48.

hasn't invented this idea, this is a cue she's taking from the cinema

:35:48.:35:53.

of the period, when had you a generation of the stars, like

:35:53.:36:00.

Margaret Lock wood, all appearing in melodramas set on the home

:36:00.:36:04.

fronts revolving around stories not entirely unlike this one. What was

:36:04.:36:11.

very brave, not giving away this end, there is only one resolution

:36:11.:36:15.

regarded as a traditionals re l the unhappiness doesn't get magiced

:36:15.:36:20.

away. All of that is transferred very precisely from the book. It

:36:20.:36:29.

has a lovely Mel collie feeling to it. I wond - Mel Len collie feeling

:36:29.:36:37.

to it - melencholy feel to go it. The budget wasn't big enough to do

:36:37.:36:41.

the burning London. This isn't Hollywood. It is on next Tuesday

:36:42.:36:48.

night at 9.00. It is turning into a weekend of farewells, the News of

:36:48.:36:55.

the World, the space shuttle and Harry Potter, the final film.

:36:55.:37:05.
:37:05.:37:10.

You know the stats about Harry Potter, 400 million books sold,

:37:10.:37:15.

translated into 67 language, including ancient Greek, including

:37:15.:37:19.

the most lucrative movie franchise of all time. The little wizard has

:37:19.:37:29.
:37:29.:37:29.

come into millions of homes and people's careers.

:37:29.:37:36.

The spotlight tonight is Lizo, the BBC entertainment correspond

:37:36.:37:40.

department. Which of the Harry Potter books has told the most?

:37:40.:37:42.

Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows Part 2. What two conditions

:37:42.:37:47.

were imposed on the making of the Royal Hospitals Trust films?

:37:47.:37:53.

wanted it an all-British cast made in the UK, number two commercial

:37:53.:37:59.

partners involved in merchandising, putting money into good causes.

:37:59.:38:09.

was JK Rolling's first choice to direct the movie? Terry Gillingham.

:38:09.:38:15.

Why did Steven Spielberg turn it down? He wanted it an animated

:38:15.:38:24.

movie and starring Haley Joel Osmond. Why has it been successful?

:38:24.:38:28.

People say because it explores folklore and drawing it together.

:38:28.:38:32.

Correct, it is said one in four American adults have seen a Harry

:38:32.:38:39.

Potter film, why? There are so many different reasons for that, firstly,

:38:39.:38:43.

it is because Americans are fascinate bid British culture.

:38:43.:38:48.

there be any more Harry Potter stories? No. I'm not entirely sure

:38:48.:38:52.

I agree with that. Excuse me, I have started so I will finish. I

:38:52.:38:57.

think she will carry on, it is not about money, JK Rolling has plenty

:38:57.:39:00.

of that, it is about the writer's need to write. She has done perhaps

:39:00.:39:04.

the most difficult thing, to create characters which mean something to

:39:04.:39:08.

her readers. They want more. I don't think she will be able to

:39:08.:39:17.

resist the urge to give it to them. Well, well. What brings you here

:39:17.:39:22.

Potter? Can you believe it's the Harry Potter final film, in a sense

:39:22.:39:28.

it has been, what, seven book, set films, in real time. Only eight,

:39:28.:39:37.

really. It seems like 27 to me. don't mean that. What have they

:39:37.:39:41.

contributed to the film industry, apart from anything else? Apart

:39:41.:39:48.

from giving aen to of people a tonne of people a huge tonne of

:39:48.:39:52.

work. I think they have realised British film makers, they are

:39:52.:39:56.

British book, set here, there was an option early on made by

:39:56.:40:00.

Spielberg in America, no, they stayed here, they stayed very

:40:00.:40:05.

British, it is a positive British brand. A film studio exists in this

:40:05.:40:09.

country that wouldn't be here if it hadn't been for the Harry Potter

:40:09.:40:13.

films. That's worth celebrating. I'm glad to see the back of them.

:40:13.:40:17.

Just before we end this conversation, space shuttle, Harry

:40:17.:40:20.

Potter, News of the World, what will you miss the most? I'm not

:40:20.:40:26.

going to miss any of them, never see Harry Potter films unless you

:40:26.:40:32.

send me, I have never read News of the World, space shuttle maybe, the

:40:32.:40:39.

only thing at the moment is Wimbledon and the sun. A going

:40:39.:40:45.

backwards not going to space, we don't read books but strange

:40:45.:40:50.

screens. I'm always saying goodbye to Harry Potter, if the News of the

:40:50.:40:53.

World goes permanently that would be a great thing, but it might be

:40:53.:40:57.

replaced with something that could take us to the past. It has to be

:40:57.:41:03.

Harry Potter, a true case of plot over everything and working for it.

:41:03.:41:08.

The shuttle, now I won't get the chance to fly t I thought maybe I

:41:08.:41:13.

would be able to sort it out as co- pilot. Sorry to leave you on a sad

:41:13.:41:16.

note. That is almost all for tonight.

:41:16.:41:21.

Remember we are standing by for your tweets. My thanks to Sarah

:41:21.:41:25.

Churchwell, Paul Morley, Natalie Haynes and Matthew Sweet, we take a

:41:25.:41:31.

short break until the Edinburgh Festival next month, but it is

:41:31.:41:36.

entertainment galore on The Culture Show on Wednesday at 7.00 BBC Two.

:41:36.:41:42.

We leave you with Frank Turner from the album Peggy Sings the Blue,

:41:42.:41:52.
:41:52.:41:56.

# Peggy came to me # In my sleep

:41:56.:42:02.

# In the middle of the night # On a Friday night last week

:42:02.:42:07.

# She whispered hot shot # Now don't be scared

:42:07.:42:12.

# Got me through words of wisdom # I came back to share

:42:12.:42:15.

# She said # It doesn't matter where you come

:42:15.:42:22.

from # It matters where you go

:42:22.:42:28.

# I said Peggy won't you stay here for a while

:42:28.:42:33.

# We could drink whiskey # We could play cards

:42:33.:42:39.

# We could get wild # She said we'll play poker

:42:39.:42:43.

# Play for keeps # I only play angels

:42:43.:42:45.

# They never let me cheat # She said

:42:45.:42:48.

# It doesn't matter where you come from

:42:48.:42:58.
:42:58.:42:59.

# It matters where you go # No-one gets remembered

:42:59.:43:03.

# In this senseless life # For the things they didn't do

:43:03.:43:06.

# You could say you had a good start

:43:06.:43:12.

# You could say I had class # You could say I was born beneath

:43:12.:43:16.

# The ceiling made of glass # I always kept an open house

:43:16.:43:21.

# And always do right by my friends # And when I got to St Peter's gate

:43:21.:43:24.

# I told the keeper # I'm not the one

:43:24.:43:34.

# Who needs to make amends # Because better times are coming

:43:34.:43:40.

# Bad times ahead # No-one gets remembered

:43:40.:43:50.

# My death is # To rest too long in # Peggy said

:43:50.:43:52.

# It doesn't matter where you come from

:43:52.:44:01.

# It matters where you go # No-one gets remembered

:44:01.:44:09.

Kirsty Wark is joined by guests including Paul Morley and Natalie Haynes to discuss the Magritte exhibition at Tate Liverpool; Terrence Malick's film The Tree of Life, winner of the Cannes Film Festival's prestigious Palme d'Or; and the partnership between Kevin Spacey and Sam Mendes in Richard III at the Old Vic.