Episode 7 Watchdog


Episode 7

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NatWest - Are you safe from fraud? Fiat - Are you secure at the wheel?

:00:09.:00:13.

Tesco - Can you be sure about their latest offers? Plus: Barclays,

:00:13.:00:16.

Virgin Media, and British Gas - Selling boilers. What's really in

:00:16.:00:21.

it for their engineers? It's Watchdog. The programme you cannot

:00:21.:00:31.
:00:31.:00:49.

afford to miss. Yes, hello and good evening. Welcome to watchdog, we

:00:49.:00:57.

are live, as usual, from Television Centre. Bank fraud, a customer's

:00:57.:01:03.

account drained of �18,000. Why would not NatWest pay it back?

:01:03.:01:07.

gentleman was away on holiday, he could not have done the trangs

:01:08.:01:12.

actions, therefore the bank has to pay back the money. Can Britain's

:01:12.:01:18.

Srongest Man get hold of the wheel? Tesco, price on the brochure �169.

:01:18.:01:25.

Price at the checkout, �1.99. How many other deals don't add up. Plus

:01:25.:01:30.

car insurance and other charges, �55 to change your address. We did

:01:30.:01:37.

not get a good deal from the Rogue's tonight, but we got a shot

:01:37.:01:41.

of them after they ripped us off. There is no hanging their heads in

:01:41.:01:47.

shame. There is is a smirk. Look, a high-five. Yes, prepare to meet the

:01:47.:01:50.

boys from Drainsafe Limited of Bexley in Kent. They look happy.

:01:50.:01:53.

That expression could be about to change.

:01:53.:01:58.

First, bank and credit card fraud. Every day, 2,500 customers find

:01:58.:02:03.

that details have been used to buy goods or withdraw money. Proving

:02:03.:02:07.

fraud is difficult. That is why the Financial Services Authority, the

:02:07.:02:13.

FSA, have drawn up new rules to make it easier for the customers to

:02:13.:02:18.

claim refunds so., are the banks following the rules? You decide.

:02:18.:02:22.

Thieves drain our bank accounts of more than �300 million a year.

:02:22.:02:27.

There are many ways to do it using lost or stolen cards or card

:02:27.:02:32.

details to order items over the counter, on the phone or over the

:02:32.:02:36.

internet. Or even by stealing your identity to take over the entire

:02:36.:02:40.

account. Criminals may find it easy to

:02:40.:02:44.

defraud you, but persuading the bank they have done so can be

:02:45.:02:49.

tougher. The FSA rules say that if you deny authorising a payment, the

:02:49.:02:54.

bank should give the benefit of the doubt to you, unless they can prove

:02:54.:03:00.

otherwise, but we found some banks using flimsy excuses to refuse

:03:00.:03:05.

refunds. Kulvir Kinder, recently went on

:03:05.:03:13.

holiday to India. While he was away, a fraudster claiming to be him,

:03:13.:03:17.

called NatWest and managed to alter personal details, changing the

:03:17.:03:21.

residence from Slough to Nottingham and persuading the bank to send a

:03:21.:03:25.

new card. When it arrived at the new address, the fraudster

:03:25.:03:30.

proceeded to empty the account of more than �18,000. Almost �5,000 of

:03:30.:03:34.

the total was stolen by transferring it into other accounts,

:03:34.:03:42.

money that NatWest has refunded. The other �13,000 came from ATMs

:03:42.:03:47.

and cash withdrawal, that is �13,000 that the bank is refusing

:03:47.:03:51.

to refund. Despite Kulvir Kinder being 4,000 miles away at the time.

:03:51.:03:56.

NatWest say that the withdrawals could not have been made without

:03:56.:04:01.

him being present, but is this proof for them to deny the refund?

:04:01.:04:09.

I have reviewed the case and I draw attention to two transactions worth

:04:09.:04:15.

�50. Cash withdrawals, done over the count ner branches -- �9506789

:04:15.:04:19.

Kulvir Kinder was away on holiday. He could not have done the

:04:19.:04:23.

transactions, therefore the bank must refund the money.

:04:23.:04:28.

Fraudulent use of the bank card is often obvious. The thief has spent

:04:28.:04:32.

money in a place you have never been to on goods you have never

:04:32.:04:36.

bought, but if the card was used for a transaction with a retailer

:04:36.:04:42.

you have used before, good luck getting a refund from Barclays.

:04:42.:04:46.

Muqtada Al-Sadr returned from a holiday to find two unauthorised

:04:46.:04:50.

payments had been made on his card. I contacted Barclays Bank. They

:04:50.:04:58.

came back to me. I was astounded to find that its with for a card I

:04:58.:05:07.

don't even own. They were two cars. The two cars, these ones are Ray's,

:05:07.:05:13.

the others are not. I went to the bank, they decided it

:05:13.:05:18.

was not fraud due the fact I had used the merchant before.

:05:18.:05:22.

Yes, if the criminal ues the card to buy something from a retailer

:05:22.:05:26.

which you have used before, Barclays may not be prepared to

:05:26.:05:31.

accept that there has been fraud. Why? Because the retailer has your

:05:31.:05:36.

details and then accidentally debited the account or that this is

:05:36.:05:42.

in line with theal pattern of spending, but if you are a motorist,

:05:42.:05:47.

you need a tax disc, there is own the DVLA available.

:05:47.:05:51.

The regulation says that the firm has to prove that the payment was

:05:51.:05:54.

authorised. To argue that, simply because the customer made purchases

:05:54.:05:59.

from the company in the past is a unreasonable argument. All of us

:05:59.:06:05.

that have cars or driving licences deal with the DVLA.

:06:05.:06:08.

Despite being able to prove that the cars were not his, Ray could

:06:08.:06:12.

not get a refund from Barclays. Having taken two months to provide

:06:12.:06:16.

him with details of the transactions, they gave him ten

:06:16.:06:20.

days to dispute them. As he was out of the country at the time he

:06:20.:06:24.

missed the deadline. I feel that Barclays have treated

:06:24.:06:30.

me shabbily. They don't seem to care.

:06:30.:06:34.

If thieves want to make a fraudulent telephone or online

:06:34.:06:39.

purchase, all they need are the card details, using sophisticated

:06:39.:06:45.

techniques to obtain them, going so far as to hack into retailers'

:06:45.:06:50.

databases. You can be unaware that a criminal has your details but you

:06:50.:06:54.

could be held responsible. Dharmadev Trivedi is a junior

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doctor and another Barclays customer. Last October, the bank

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noticed a number of unusual transactions on the card. One of

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which was made at a hotel in Northampton.

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At the time, he was on shift 120 miles away in Leeds.

:07:09.:07:14.

The bank had cancelled my card. They are stopped some of the major

:07:14.:07:18.

transactions and I was feeling much assured that the money was safe.

:07:18.:07:23.

However, there was a purchase made from a hotel and some food

:07:23.:07:29.

purchased from a food website, they redebited that from the account.

:07:29.:07:33.

Although Barclays refunded the hotel bill, they refused to refund

:07:33.:07:38.

the money for the food order, using the exact excuse that they had

:07:38.:07:42.

given Ray, that he had used the retailer before.

:07:42.:07:47.

The reason was the previous dealing with the merchant. I had ordered

:07:47.:07:52.

from them before, but many others have as well.

:07:52.:07:57.

Ray did manage to persuade Barclays to refund the money, despite the

:07:57.:08:02.

fact they could not prove he made the transactions, they still felt

:08:02.:08:07.

he was to blame. I read the letter that Barclays

:08:07.:08:17.
:08:17.:08:21.

I feel it was a ridiculous statement to make.

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This gentleman has protected his card. Somebody has managed to use

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his card number that is a very different matter. As card holders,

:08:29.:08:33.

we are clearly responsible for making sure that we keep our fiscal

:08:33.:08:39.

cards safe, but lots of people have access to our card details and we

:08:39.:08:46.

cannot prevent some of those people from miss using those details.

:08:46.:08:52.

The FSA says that banks have to give customers the benefit of the

:08:52.:08:57.

doubt if they claim to be victims of fraud unless proven otherwise. A

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shame that some banks don't seem to be listening.

:09:02.:09:07.

The NatWest has investigated Kulvir Kinder's case and agreed to refund

:09:07.:09:11.

the remaining �13,000 drained from his account. They say that the

:09:11.:09:16.

investigation was complex and took time. They want to assure him and

:09:16.:09:22.

all other customers that they continue to develop their antifraud

:09:22.:09:27.

methods. And Barclays have refunded

:09:27.:09:30.

Dharmadev Trivedi but admit that they wrongly held him lible for one

:09:30.:09:35.

of the payments. They are also helping Muqtada Al-Sadr, they have

:09:35.:09:39.

offered him an extra �50 as a goodwill gesture. Saying that the

:09:39.:09:44.

security of the customers' money is prar mount. They guarantee to

:09:44.:09:48.

compensate genuine fraud victims and pay out an 85% of cases. When

:09:48.:09:53.

they get it wrong they put their hands up and take action to put it

:09:53.:10:01.

right. If you would like to comment on the stories here is how:

:10:01.:10:08.

To get involved in the Twitter discussion, the address and hashtag

:10:08.:10:13.

are on the screens. A huge response to last week's

:10:13.:10:16.

reports on British Gas and their engineers charges for unnecessary

:10:16.:10:24.

work. Chris Jansen came on watchdog to deny that the engineers receive

:10:24.:10:27.

financial incentives to recommend that customers replace the boiler.

:10:27.:10:31.

No. They do not get rewards for selling a boiler.

:10:31.:10:36.

So they are not in any way benefiting from the boiler? Your

:10:36.:10:41.

people that go in there, there is nothing in it for them what soever?

:10:41.:10:45.

Our engineers are engineers. They fix boilers. We visit 7 million

:10:45.:10:50.

home as year. 99% of the times we fix the boiler. Most of the time we

:10:50.:10:55.

fix it the first time. In the rare occasion, it is one in 100 when we

:10:55.:11:00.

cannot fix the boiler. The engineer sits with the customers to explain

:11:00.:11:05.

to them the reasons they should get a new boiler.

:11:05.:11:10.

That is odd. British Gas engineers have been in touch to say that they

:11:10.:11:15.

are given incentives. Watchdog obtained a letter sent to British

:11:15.:11:20.

Gas employers, spelling out how engineers can increase earnings.

:11:20.:11:27.

The company sent this to staff. It gave them guidance on how to answer

:11:27.:11:34.

customers' questions. In answer to the question, our engineers are

:11:34.:11:39.

incentivised to encourage customers to have their boilers replaced? It

:11:39.:11:43.

says no, but where a customer's boiler cannot be fixed or is

:11:43.:11:48.

reaching the end of its life, our engineers may ask if the customers

:11:48.:11:56.

would like a quote for a new boiler from a British Gas expert. If so,

:11:56.:12:01.

the engineer requires �15 for giving the lead.

:12:01.:12:07.

So there is an incentive? British Gas say this is a nominal payment.

:12:07.:12:11.

For introducing them to the British Gas new heating team. They say that

:12:11.:12:15.

the payments are made irrespective of the outcome of a sales process.

:12:15.:12:19.

It is, they say, not a commission. The full response and contact

:12:19.:12:24.

details are on our website. Coming up: The Grande Punto,

:12:24.:12:28.

stylish and safe say Fiat. Try steering it say the owners. How

:12:28.:12:34.

will Britain's Srongest Man fare behind the wheel? He won?! He must

:12:34.:12:39.

have beaten me by that much! Mind you, if there was a competition for

:12:39.:12:43.

Britain's cheekest man, neither would get a look in. We would be a

:12:43.:12:53.
:12:53.:13:03.

long way behind one of tonight's # You've got a friend in me... #

:13:03.:13:13.
:13:13.:13:15.

Dan and I go way back! We laugh bad that for days... Hello! Hello! We

:13:15.:13:25.

have stayed pals, mates, bosom buddies... It is one of of the --

:13:25.:13:29.

written of the moments that I wish that Dan was here. We tell the same

:13:29.:13:36.

stories all over again. I sent a text message that said

:13:36.:13:39.

Hello! I don't even know what it means!

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# Yeah, you have a friend in me. # Come on! You know, other friends

:13:48.:13:54.

are not so cuddly. Like the two we meet tonight. They work for Bexley-

:13:54.:13:59.

based Drainsafe Limited a company specialising in boilers and drains,

:13:59.:14:04.

imagine! Susanne Black called them out last December when her boiler

:14:04.:14:09.

went on the blink. It looks like Susanne Black is originally from

:14:09.:14:14.

Finland. I get a nice man who goes up there

:14:14.:14:18.

to look at the problem and says this is the part you need or two

:14:18.:14:22.

parts. He cannot get them for the same day. So we waited until he can

:14:22.:14:26.

come back the next day. He comes back the next day, what

:14:26.:14:31.

happens then? He fitted the parts. I was rather happy to have the

:14:31.:14:34.

heating back on the house. It was cold.

:14:34.:14:40.

40 minutes later, when he had gone, it all goes off again.

:14:40.:14:44.

The same guy came back 24 hours later, called the boiler

:14:44.:14:48.

manufacture and discovered he had not fixed the problem correctly. He

:14:48.:14:53.

had to start from scratch. I enquired whether it would be

:14:53.:15:00.

covered by the guarantee. They said no because I had

:15:01.:15:05.

misdiagnosed the problem. It was not their job to fix if, pay for it.

:15:05.:15:11.

So, to be clear, as a Drainsafe customer it is you who has to

:15:11.:15:15.

decide what is wrong with the boiler before you call them?

:15:15.:15:19.

Apparently so. An expert has said this is a simple

:15:19.:15:24.

fault for a trained gas fitter and should have been fixed for �220.

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Yet Susanne Black was charged a massive �724. From a company that

:15:30.:15:34.

promises satisfaction guaranteed! They just took my money. They took

:15:34.:15:40.

almost two weeks to do the work and... Yeah, it was a very

:15:40.:15:45.

unpleasant experience. So, �724 to fix a problem that

:15:45.:15:50.

should have cost �220. Not good. There is more, we heard from a

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landlord in a flat in south London. This is him. His name is Jas. When

:15:55.:15:57.

he called the company about a blocked bathroom drain. They said

:15:58.:16:02.

they would fix it the following morning. They asked him for a

:16:02.:16:06.

initial payment of �66 from the credit card. They said they would

:16:06.:16:10.

let him know the final bill. I phoned them. They said that

:16:10.:16:14.

everything was done. That everything was fine. I said how

:16:15.:16:22.

much was the charge. They said � 1,056. I was shocked. I said it

:16:23.:16:30.

can't be that much! Indeed! This job should have cost half of that.

:16:30.:16:34.

What is worse, Jas said that they took the full payment without his

:16:34.:16:40.

consent. Time to put on secret cameras and

:16:40.:16:48.

call Mike Griffin. Mike Griffin! Yes, not literally.

:16:48.:16:53.

Yes, it is Mike, he is a plumber. He is at the top of his game.

:16:53.:17:03.
:17:03.:17:06.

We are in luck! Big builder? No, look here.

:17:06.:17:11.

We have had it powered through and washed, now we have filled it up

:17:11.:17:18.

with lots of rice, pasta and topped it off with a bit of broccoli.

:17:18.:17:25.

Yes, this is not just a blockage, it is a Mike Griffin blockage. Any

:17:25.:17:30.

plumber should be able to clear it in just under 20 minutes.

:17:30.:17:36.

Right, we are in position. Homeowner John is showing us his

:17:36.:17:44.

moves. Twin pistols. Shut up! And Drainsafe are on their way! At

:17:44.:17:49.

least, we thought they were on their way... I phoned up about an

:17:49.:17:53.

hour ago. I think they were about 3 minutes away, I was told.

:17:53.:18:00.

We are still waiting... Another 30 minutes? Any minute now... See what

:18:00.:18:06.

the time is now... The audience may be getting bored, I will show my

:18:06.:18:11.

Muppet. That's better. Finally, four hours late, they arrive.

:18:11.:18:17.

Better late than never. Jason is not alone. He is with his

:18:17.:18:27.
:18:27.:18:31.

buddy, BuzzLightyear. Ryan, actually. I wonder what they will

:18:31.:18:36.

get up to today? Clearing the blockage should take 20 minutes and

:18:36.:18:41.

cost up to �100, but it turns out that Jason and Ryan have a lot more

:18:41.:18:48.

time and money on their minds. Next, Fiat, the puntow, the Grande

:18:48.:18:54.

Punto and the Panda. Three small cars, one big problem. The owners

:18:54.:19:01.

too scared to drive them. The Fiat Grande Punto. Good looking,

:19:01.:19:09.

affordable and most importantly, safe. Small. Sheerbgs -- chic, and

:19:09.:19:14.

Italian. A winning combination. So I hoped, but as for the safety, I'm

:19:14.:19:18.

not sure. There is a serious problem with power steering on some

:19:19.:19:24.

Fiats. That is costly to fix and potentially very dangerous. Not so

:19:24.:19:30.

attractive. Dominic's car was a Fiat puntow. He

:19:30.:19:36.

bought it second-hand in 2010. I always wanted a Fiat puntow. I

:19:36.:19:41.

always wanted one. Now I have one, I am happy. I'm in the army, I have

:19:41.:19:45.

the kit in the boot. They are reliable.

:19:45.:19:50.

Economical, but less than a year after he bought the car, the

:19:50.:19:53.

problems with the power steering began.

:19:53.:19:58.

Something beeped on the dash board. The power steering was a problem.

:19:58.:20:02.

It made it really hard and heavy to steer.

:20:02.:20:06.

A problem with the electrics caused the power steering to fail once.

:20:06.:20:10.

Within week it is went again. According to Dominic it failed 50

:20:10.:20:15.

times in the space of six months. Scary and costly.

:20:15.:20:22.

As the car was not under warranty, I had to fork out �654.

:20:22.:20:29.

But for other Fiat Grande Punto owners it proved even more costly.

:20:29.:20:33.

This is probably the most unreliable car I have ever had in

:20:34.:20:39.

my life it can go any time, the power steering. Even on the

:20:39.:20:41.

motorway. I have lost the confidence in driving the car. So

:20:41.:20:47.

much so, I have had to take out the highest level of insurance cover.

:20:47.:20:52.

What does it feel like? It is not like driving a car. It is really

:20:52.:20:56.

heavy. Of course, cars have not always had

:20:56.:21:00.

power steering. It is possible to drive without it but the problem

:21:00.:21:05.

comes when the system fails, it make it is difficult to handle,

:21:05.:21:11.

even for the strongest motorist. Now I might know the cars, I may

:21:11.:21:16.

even impress you with a bit of Italian, but if it is brute

:21:16.:21:20.

strength, don't look at me, look at him.

:21:20.:21:28.

Meet Eddie Hall. He can shift 160 kilograms of solid stone and drag a

:21:29.:21:34.

30-tonne truck, but can Eddie drive this obstacle course without power

:21:34.:21:39.

steering? Yes, it is the strong man's turn to drive Sarah's Fiat

:21:39.:21:43.

when the power steering cuts out without a warning.

:21:43.:21:49.

Our car expert has a special device now to de-activate the power

:21:49.:21:54.

steering on the car with a flick of a switch, but Eddie has no idea

:21:54.:22:04.
:22:04.:22:12.

when it will happen. So, here goes. -- looking good at the moment. Look.

:22:12.:22:16.

Something has gone. Once the system fails, Eddie has to struggle like

:22:16.:22:22.

mad to steer the wheel. The seat belt even slips off his shoulder.

:22:22.:22:27.

He is working so hard! He is having to slow right down.

:22:27.:22:31.

He does not need to go to the gym, I tell you.

:22:31.:22:37.

So, if the power steering failure can cause struggle for the

:22:37.:22:41.

Britain's Srongest Man, what hope is there for other Fiat drivers?

:22:41.:22:47.

Watchdog heard from 132 of them complaining of power steering

:22:47.:22:52.

problems made between 2000 and 2008. Some are grand grandground and Fiat

:22:52.:22:56.

owners, others like John, own a Panda.

:22:56.:23:01.

My father always had Italian cars. When I went to Italy, we loved

:23:01.:23:08.

looking at Italian cars. I have had 30 Fiats. I have had this car five

:23:08.:23:13.

years, in the five years I have had three power steering units.

:23:13.:23:20.

I am fed up with it. It is a safety issue. I'm an

:23:20.:23:25.

experienced driver. I teach car driving.

:23:25.:23:29.

It is worrying and expensive. When it went the third time, the

:23:29.:23:34.

steering column was not under warranty. Fiat said: They don't

:23:34.:23:38.

accept that the problems that are experienced are a result of the

:23:38.:23:42.

manufacturing history. So they are basically saying it is not their

:23:42.:23:47.

fault? Yes, which is rubbish. Watchdog phoned five independent

:23:47.:23:51.

garages around the UK, they seemed well aware of the issue. In

:23:51.:23:55.

Scotland, they said that some Fiats have problems and the electric

:23:55.:23:59.

power steering can pack up. In Lincolnshire, they described the

:23:59.:24:05.

problem with the puntow as a well- known common fault. Four out of

:24:05.:24:10.

five garages told us that the power steering can be faulty on either

:24:10.:24:16.

the Fiat puntow and the Panda. So, what is the problem and should Fiat

:24:17.:24:21.

be taking responsibility? There is a fault on the electric side. That

:24:21.:24:26.

causes the loss of power steering. Given the fault lines, I think this

:24:26.:24:29.

should not happen in the hieftime of the car, I think that Fiat

:24:29.:24:34.

should be replacing the units. But until Fiat takes the action, it

:24:34.:24:38.

seems that the owners will have problems. It may be easier for

:24:38.:24:43.

Eddie to pull the car, rather than drive it. Fiat will not comment on

:24:43.:24:48.

individual cases but confirmed that a small number of puntow and Panda

:24:48.:24:53.

models have had power-assisted steering repairs. They say that the

:24:53.:24:58.

fault is indicated bay warning light. That the car can be driven,

:24:58.:25:02.

although with increased effort on the wheel. They say that they aim

:25:02.:25:09.

to give the customers exemplary service and advise people with

:25:09.:25:14.

problems to call their local dealer and the Fiat customer care team.

:25:14.:25:20.

Tesco, and the latest so-called bargains. Here is this month's

:25:20.:25:26.

brochure. Hundreds of price cuts, but getting to the checkout and

:25:26.:25:31.

some of the goods cost more. So, we went shopping to this Tesco branch

:25:31.:25:36.

up the road in West London. We found Nestle Shreddies advertised

:25:36.:25:44.

on sale for �1.34. The price at the checkout, �149. Nestle Cheerios,

:25:44.:25:53.

the brochure price, �137. The checkout price, �1 43.

:25:53.:26:03.
:26:03.:26:05.

And Hellman's, headlines 1.69, the price we paid was �1.99. Reeocka,

:26:05.:26:14.

�5.99, we were charged �6.49. -- Rioja. They say that they are

:26:14.:26:18.

printing errors, they have high lighted the correct promotional

:26:18.:26:24.

prices. After all of that, Annie, no doubt you are tempted to do your

:26:24.:26:30.

shopping at a 9 p store? Never go anywhere else.

:26:30.:26:34.

But be careful. It started as a single shop 11

:26:35.:26:41.

years ago. Now there are more than 150 of them all across the UK.

:26:41.:26:45.

Generating profits 6 �6 .3 million. What is the secret.

:26:45.:26:49.

Cheap food and cheap cosmetics. think is good for the money. Money

:26:50.:26:54.

is tight, you have to look around. Where money is tight, we are bound

:26:54.:27:02.

to be attracted by promises like this... This... And this... We will

:27:02.:27:07.

not be beaten on price. Clear and definitive, yes. True? Let's find

:27:07.:27:14.

out. I wanted to check what you mean by

:27:14.:27:19.

we will not be beaten by price in your stores? Our researchers are

:27:19.:27:24.

putting the claim to the test, but let's confirm with a call to one of

:27:24.:27:27.

the stores that the company stands by the promise.

:27:27.:27:32.

It means that the product you buy from our store you cannot buy

:27:32.:27:37.

cheaper in someone else's store. As simple as that? As simple as

:27:37.:27:43.

that. So, let's buy products. 40 of them.

:27:43.:27:50.

Chosen at random and purchased over a three week period in March and

:27:50.:27:56.

April. Using data supplied by My Supermarket, we compared the prices

:27:56.:28:00.

with the 99p Stores with the big four supermarkets on the same dates.

:28:00.:28:05.

So, let's see if the claim really stands up to the scrutiny. We

:28:05.:28:11.

bought this bottle of Carex hand wash from the 99p Stores for guess

:28:12.:28:19.

how much? Yes, you have it, 99p, but then we bought this from Tesco

:28:19.:28:25.

and Sainsbury's, the same bottle was some 19 pence cheaper. Then

:28:25.:28:31.

Coke, at the 99p Stores you can get two pore �180, but ASDA and

:28:31.:28:40.

Morrisons had an offer, two bottles for �1.50. Finally, Oreos, at the

:28:40.:28:48.

99p Stores you can get two packets for, 99 pence, but at Tesco, two

:28:48.:28:53.

packets for 98 pence it does not sound a lot, but it all adds up. So

:28:53.:28:57.

despite the boost, the 99p Stores clearly can be beaten on price by

:28:57.:29:03.

the big supermarkets, but what about another of their claims, un

:29:03.:29:08.

beetable valuable? Well, that does not always stand up -- unbeatable

:29:08.:29:13.

value? That does not always stand up. Tyke this Right Guard that they

:29:13.:29:20.

are selling for 99 pence. At Morrisons we can buy a larger can

:29:20.:29:25.

for 26 pence more. It is Morrisons offering the better value.

:29:25.:29:33.

And finally, there is Flash, the all-purpose cleaner. We got this

:29:33.:29:38.

500 millilitre bottle for 9 pence from the 99p Stores but spending 1

:29:38.:29:44.

pence more at ASDA, you got twice the amount. What was that about

:29:44.:29:52.

unbeatable value? On at least one occasion, 70 of the 40 -- seven of

:29:52.:29:57.

the 40 products were cheaper. This store has a we will not be

:29:57.:30:02.

beaten on price claim. Now that claim is not qualified. There are

:30:02.:30:06.

no caveats to it. No points to support it. There is nothing so say

:30:06.:30:12.

if you find it cheaper elsewhere, what do you do, so therefore that

:30:12.:30:17.

gives the impression and leads consumers to be believing that this

:30:17.:30:21.

is an absolute promise of value, but what we stpiend that you can

:30:21.:30:26.

find the goods cheaper elsewhere. It is not as if the 99p Stores

:30:26.:30:32.

don't know what the prices of the big four supermarkets are charging,

:30:32.:30:36.

they make their own comparisons instore. Like this one.

:30:36.:30:42.

The stuffing for 99 pence for three at the 99p Stores, compared to

:30:42.:30:51.

�1765 at Sainsbury's. -- �1765.

:30:51.:30:56.

-- �1.65. It sounds good, if only it was accurate. We visited

:30:56.:31:02.

Sainsbury's. We found that the stuffing was not �1.65 for three as

:31:02.:31:08.

claimed, but �1.20. Over the course of the trip, we checked out 37 of

:31:08.:31:12.

their price comparison labels. Incredibly, 27 of them were not

:31:12.:31:16.

accurate. Sometimes the rival store's prices

:31:16.:31:21.

were less than claimed, sometimes more. In all 27 cases, 99p Stores

:31:21.:31:27.

were cheaper, but why the inaccuracies at all? Maybe because

:31:27.:31:31.

some price comparisons were made months ago, even as far back as

:31:31.:31:34.

2010. So the general image of the store

:31:34.:31:39.

is that it is good value, they will not be beaten on price, but not all

:31:39.:31:43.

goods are the best value on the market, then they are not making

:31:43.:31:48.

price comparisons that they should Oh, well, after all that hard work,

:31:48.:31:52.

at least our team could look forward to cheap refreshment,

:31:52.:31:59.

thanks to this great offer on Coca- Cola. Two bottles for 99 pence, but

:31:59.:32:08.

at the till they charged us �1780. Wow! OK. With me now is the co-

:32:08.:32:16.

founder and owner of 99p Stores, which incidentally are 186.

:32:16.:32:21.

Mr Lilani thank you very much for coming in. The sign says not to be

:32:21.:32:27.

beaten by value, unbeatable value, that is not true? Well, 82% of the

:32:27.:32:32.

time we beat the supermarkets. I am sorry that some signs would appear

:32:32.:32:36.

misleading. We have followed the research and removed the signs that

:32:36.:32:41.

say unbeatable value. We are to replace them with new signs to show

:32:41.:32:47.

that they are 82.5% of the time we beat the supermarkets. Those odds

:32:47.:32:53.

are stacked in the consumers' favour. Whys that taken you until

:32:53.:32:57.

watchdog got on to this to change which was accurate, which is not

:32:57.:33:00.

beaten on price and unbeatable value, when it should have been

:33:01.:33:06.

saying some of the time we are unbeatable on value? Well when the

:33:06.:33:10.

signs were put up they were unbeatable value, but in today's

:33:10.:33:13.

retail market, the prices change quickly. With the internet they

:33:13.:33:17.

change almost every hour. The mistake we made was not to keep

:33:18.:33:22.

checking the prices, but we have changed the systems now.

:33:22.:33:27.

You have comparison labels on the shelves, some of them as old as

:33:27.:33:32.

2010, so two-year-old prices that are not accurate. There were 27 out

:33:32.:33:39.

of 37 prices were inaccurate? the report acknowledged that

:33:39.:33:43.

although some were inaccurate, we are still beating the supermarkets.

:33:43.:33:46.

We are cheaper than the supermarkets.

:33:46.:33:51.

They are not accurate. We looked at the prices comparing with the

:33:51.:33:57.

supermarket. 27 out of 37 were inaccurate. That is 100% accurate

:33:57.:34:03.

research! But each product was cheaper than the supermarket. We

:34:03.:34:11.

are cheaper than the supermarkets. You are not, it is Carex that is 99

:34:11.:34:15.

pence at your store, it is 80 pence at Tesco.

:34:15.:34:22.

Let's take an example. The Flash cleaner, 99 pence for 500 mills at

:34:22.:34:29.

your store. In ASDA it is �1 for 1,000 mls.

:34:30.:34:33.

That offer has expired. ASDA has doubled the price.

:34:34.:34:40.

But when we did the research, there was twice as much value at ASDA

:34:40.:34:44.

than you do at the 99p Stores? acknowledge that the signage was

:34:44.:34:49.

inaccurate, some of it. We have taken that on board. Every price

:34:49.:34:51.

comparison has been removed from the shelves.

:34:51.:34:55.

I am glad we had a result from you. Thank you very much.

:34:55.:35:00.

Matt? Back to Bexley-based Drainsafe Limited, now. Not to be

:35:00.:35:04.

confused with companies of similar names, that is because this one has

:35:04.:35:08.

form for overcharging. We have asked them to clear a simple

:35:08.:35:14.

blockage. They sent two lads, Jason and Ryan to deal with it. So, will

:35:14.:35:22.

they turn out to be friends or foes? John is our stooge. There he

:35:22.:35:30.

is. His drain is in a jam. Nothing that the two boys should be able to

:35:30.:35:34.

clear with elbow grease. Mike say it is should be cleared in 20

:35:34.:35:38.

minutes, maximum. I don't know what is going on down

:35:38.:35:43.

here. We will work out the paperwork and tell you what is

:35:43.:35:51.

happening. The paperwork swrbg important, to be clear.

:35:51.:35:56.

-- the paperwork is important. That is �65 for the first hour and

:35:56.:36:03.

�55 on the half for the plant. It depends on the nature of the

:36:03.:36:09.

gravity of the situation. If we have to get the jetter out,

:36:09.:36:15.

it is a two-man job. Hmm... The trouble is that the

:36:15.:36:19.

forms he is asking us to sign say something different. He does not

:36:19.:36:25.

make this clear. On the phone he quoted the labour charge as �65 per

:36:25.:36:30.

half an hour. What he is not saying is that according to the forms in

:36:30.:36:35.

very small print we will pay �65 per man, per half an hour. With two

:36:35.:36:41.

of them on the job, that is a massive hike. Of course, there is

:36:41.:36:45.

the additional �55 for the jetter. So with charges like that, they

:36:46.:36:55.

better be good and quick. How long do you rek it will be?

:36:55.:37:00.

How long do you reckon it will be? We will have a look.

:37:00.:37:07.

I am worrying! There is no need for the blasting. It should be clearing

:37:08.:37:12.

the gully, sticking a rod down, job done in a couple of minutes.

:37:12.:37:17.

Instead of trying the cheap way first. They reach for the expensive

:37:17.:37:22.

jetter. You have to put the machinery away and get your hands

:37:22.:37:26.

dirty. Right, time for a look at that gully.

:37:26.:37:33.

Yeah, yeah, that definitely is a gully! Yeah, yeah, without a doubt,

:37:33.:37:40.

I would say that is definitely, that definitely is a gully! Right,

:37:40.:37:45.

now let's clear it up. Let's get on with it. Finally.

:37:45.:37:50.

Hold on? Are they pushing the stuff that is causing the blockage

:37:50.:37:56.

together. You have to pull it up, not push it in! Now the jetting

:37:56.:38:01.

starting up. It seems to have a nasty effect on the van. It is

:38:01.:38:07.

smoking! After a few moments of jetting. Dr Jason gives the

:38:07.:38:09.

Drainsafe diagnosis. It is not goofpltd

:38:09.:38:14.

This is lime scale. It will break under extreme pressure. You have to

:38:14.:38:19.

blast it to get it back up. That is solid.

:38:19.:38:25.

That is solid with that stuff. So, what is the plan? Just keep

:38:25.:38:28.

jetting. When we break through and clear it,

:38:28.:38:33.

we will let you know. All it is that they are not able to

:38:33.:38:39.

clear a basic gully. They should have stuck their hands

:38:39.:38:44.

in, picked out the dirt in there. It is rammed. It is rammed to the

:38:44.:38:47.

brim. Trying to push it down, but... I

:38:47.:38:51.

don't think that I can. He is pushing the dirt around the

:38:51.:38:58.

bend of the trap. He really should be dragging it out,

:38:58.:39:02.

not pushing it down. They carry on pushing it down which drags the

:39:02.:39:11.

whole thing out. In fact, in the end it takes two

:39:11.:39:16.

men a full hour to do the job. Even with the aid of a jetter! It should

:39:16.:39:26.
:39:26.:39:45.

have taken one man 20 minutes. Mike? Is he OK?! No wonder our

:39:45.:39:50.

expert has gone faint. The job should have cost less than �100.

:39:50.:39:55.

How did they get this figure. I worked it out. See that machine.

:39:55.:40:00.

Obviously for health and safety reasons it cannot be manned by one

:40:00.:40:05.

of us. It still does not add up. Call the

:40:05.:40:15.
:40:15.:40:16.

Open University! So, working on the basis that X is 65. When X is a

:40:16.:40:22.

halve hourly charge. Then we have two half hours, two X,

:40:22.:40:30.

two men they charged us for plus one Y. Times that for the jetter,

:40:30.:40:36.

it equals � 444. But they charge us two half an

:40:36.:40:42.

hours, plus two Y so double the charge for the jert, plus the VAT,

:40:42.:40:51.

it equals �576. Quite different. In other words, they have pulled a

:40:51.:40:55.

fast one. Exactly. Yes, they have. Although

:40:55.:40:59.

you would never think it, judging by Jason's expression. Before you

:40:59.:41:05.

go, guys, tell us again why the job was so complicated.

:41:05.:41:15.
:41:15.:41:34.

What it was a build up of lime Hi-five! Actually, they have just

:41:34.:41:41.

ripped us off! Yes, and rather royally as well. Still, skraison

:41:41.:41:47.

and Ryan are only the -- Jason and Ryan are own the workers. We have

:41:47.:41:54.

to find the king of the hill. To see who is pulling their strings

:41:54.:42:02.

and who is the organ grinders, but before that, Ticketmaster, Virgin

:42:02.:42:08.

Media, -- Virgin Atlantic, and the Halifax.

:42:08.:42:12.

Here is Rick. Paperwork, sometimes it feels like

:42:12.:42:18.

we are drowning in it. Keeping on top of household bills. Or filing

:42:18.:42:23.

tax returns. Yes it is a pain. There is really only so much admin

:42:23.:42:29.

one person can do before giving up. Big companies -- companies, though,

:42:29.:42:34.

they have been an army of people to process paperwork, along with the

:42:34.:42:39.

best systems and technology. So why when they do admin do we end up

:42:39.:42:44.

paying through the nose? The big ticket agencies are among the worst

:42:44.:42:48.

offenders. They have always liked booking fees, but now it has gone

:42:48.:42:54.

way beyond the nominal charge. Fancy taking in a west end show in

:42:54.:42:58.

the summer? You're in for a shock. I'm on the website for We Will Rock

:42:58.:43:02.

You. If I want to book it takes me straight through to Ticketmaster,

:43:02.:43:07.

when I -- where I can buy a couple of tickets for �6 2. And where I

:43:07.:43:14.

will be charged an extra �8.25 fee per ticket! That is bad enough, but

:43:14.:43:18.

what I don't understand is why this company varies the fee, according

:43:18.:43:23.

to the price of the ticket you are buying. Surely it does not cost

:43:23.:43:29.

more to process expensive tickets? Why do they charge you more? And

:43:29.:43:34.

what's this?! Even after making me shell out over �8 on admin fees,

:43:34.:43:39.

they are now charging me an extra �4 on my order to collect the

:43:39.:43:45.

tickets from the box office! Or, even to e-mail them to me! In which

:43:45.:43:52.

case I will have to print them out myself! I'm being charged to do my

:43:52.:43:56.

own admin! I wonder if it is the same on Broadway as the West End?

:43:56.:44:00.

Well, I'm planning to go to New York later this year. So let's have

:44:00.:44:04.

a look at a couple of the main airline carriers and see what they

:44:04.:44:10.

have to offer. On the lowest fares, well, Virgin Atlantic ticket prices

:44:10.:44:16.

seem OK, but hold on. If I have to change the day of travel, they will

:44:16.:44:20.

charge me up to a whopping �120 to do so.

:44:20.:44:24.

OK. What about British Airways? Well, if you have to alter your day

:44:25.:44:30.

with them over the phone, the fee is much less, just �30, but hold

:44:30.:44:38.

up... I've just found out that they will also charge �100 for a penalty

:44:38.:44:46.

fee for changing the details, so it comes to �130! Perhaps it is just

:44:46.:44:51.

me, but these admin charges are not only now more expensive, they are

:44:51.:44:56.

becoming more widespread. There are eye-watering arrangement fees on

:44:56.:45:01.

mortgages. Unjustified chargess for paying by plastic and huge

:45:01.:45:06.

penalties for going overdrawn on the bank account. Don't get me

:45:06.:45:10.

started on cars. Drivers are hammered with the cost of the fuel,

:45:10.:45:15.

the tax, the servicing, and the parking! As if all of that is not

:45:15.:45:19.

enough, there is the insurance! Plus the admin fees that they pile

:45:19.:45:29.
:45:29.:45:30.

Joe Townsend insures his car with Halifax. When he moved house, they

:45:30.:45:37.

hit him with a premium as it was a higher risk neighbourhood, but they

:45:37.:45:41.

slapped on an �25 admin charge, he was told for producing new

:45:41.:45:47.

documents. That is right, �25 for a couple of letters! Have you had a

:45:47.:45:51.

similar charge from your car insurer lately? This could be the

:45:51.:45:54.

reason. Companies can charge what they like as long as the charges

:45:54.:45:59.

are considered fair. Do you know it is like when buying

:45:59.:46:03.

a ticket for an airline, you think you have a deal. Then you discover

:46:03.:46:08.

that you are charged �30 for the baggage, more for the use of the

:46:08.:46:12.

credit card and lots of extra fees. In other words, some insurers are

:46:12.:46:16.

looming you in with seemingly low- costs, then hitting you are a range

:46:16.:46:20.

of additional fees. Yes, it sounds familiar.

:46:20.:46:25.

When you buy a policy you have to look at the total cost. That is not

:46:25.:46:29.

just the monthly or annual premium, but the other fees. Go through the

:46:29.:46:34.

small print. Find out the other charges that could be lumped on you.

:46:34.:46:38.

There may be reams of terms and conditions, but you have to go

:46:38.:46:47.

through all of them! Just ask Karen. She called her insurance company to

:46:47.:46:52.

say she had moved house. In the documents it said to advise

:46:52.:46:57.

them to contact them with a change of details. So I did. They then

:46:57.:47:02.

said they would charge a �55 for the change of address. When I first

:47:02.:47:08.

took out the policy, I looked at the small print. It says an admin

:47:08.:47:13.

fee for changing or amending, which I believed it would be if I changed

:47:13.:47:18.

the car or to change the insurance from comprehensive to third party,

:47:18.:47:25.

but I did not think that changing the address would incur a �55.

:47:25.:47:29.

�55 to change an address?! You would not catch me being stung like

:47:30.:47:37.

that. I read everything before going into a deal.

:47:37.:47:44.

Wait res! This does include service, doesn't it? We asked one call in

:47:44.:47:49.

United Nations -- we asked One Call Direct about the charge. It says

:47:49.:47:53.

that the charges are transparent to make clear to customers at the

:47:53.:47:58.

point of sale. Halifax said that fees were in line with industry

:47:58.:48:02.

standards. As for the others, Ticketmaster say that the feels are

:48:02.:48:07.

the sole source of revenue. That they don't set them independently,

:48:07.:48:11.

that they are agreed with the clients. The charges for We Will

:48:11.:48:16.

Rock You are not typical. It can only offer the print-tickets-at-

:48:16.:48:20.

home once the high-level instruction has been installed in

:48:21.:48:26.

the venue and the flight changes, braise and Virgin Atlantic say that

:48:26.:48:30.

they explain to customers that there is a price change before the

:48:30.:48:35.

purchase. Here are a few more stories:

:48:35.:48:40.

Barcelona versus Chelsea, one of the billingest upsets of recent

:48:40.:48:50.
:48:50.:48:50.

times. I am not talking about the result. BSkyB, Go go, -- Sky Go,

:48:50.:48:55.

suffered technical problems, the fans were prevented logging on

:48:55.:49:00.

through desktops and hand held twices as John Terry went off and

:49:00.:49:06.

Chelsea went 2-0 down. Sky acknowledged the problems, but were

:49:06.:49:11.

hit with complaints at the same time that Ramirez was leading the

:49:11.:49:15.

fightback. Then Fernando Torres had equalised and the Blues were

:49:15.:49:20.

through to the Champions League final. Sky apologised and is

:49:20.:49:27.

investigating. What a Messi! Low Cost Holdiays with dedicated and

:49:27.:49:35.

experienced customer care. Offering 24/7 advice, but don't ask

:49:35.:49:38.

geography questions. Jamie O'Neill wanted to know why cheapest flights

:49:39.:49:44.

that the customer offered Scottish customers were from over the border

:49:44.:49:48.

in Newcastle. He got this reply: Newcastle is indeed located in

:49:48.:49:53.

Scotland. It is a city, not a capital. Low Cost Holdiays has

:49:53.:49:59.

apologised, blaming the error on a call centre trainee in India, which

:49:59.:50:09.
:50:09.:50:09.

is, indeed, a country! And Virgin Media, the Avertising Standards

:50:09.:50:15.

Authority ruled this promotion miss leading as the small print was too

:50:15.:50:21.

small. It contained key information about availability, costs, contract

:50:21.:50:24.

lengths, information that the customers have to know. Virgin

:50:24.:50:28.

claimed that the lettering was larger than industry standard, that

:50:28.:50:34.

it was not responsible for the poor print quality. The ASA banned the

:50:34.:50:39.

ad. Very clear. Last call for Drainsafe Limited, of

:50:39.:50:46.

Bexley in Kent, now, the company that massively overcharged us for a

:50:46.:50:52.

simple drainage clearance job. The employies, celebrated the fact by

:50:52.:50:57.

hi-fiving each other. Are they company men? Or just two bad

:50:57.:51:00.

apples? During the course of the investigation, we called the

:51:00.:51:05.

company out on two other occasions. Both times one plumber turned up,

:51:05.:51:10.

we were not overcharged, but we have been ripped off once. So had

:51:10.:51:15.

the customers in touch with us. We have to know if the instructions

:51:15.:51:22.

are coming from the top. So So what now? Time to complain to the boss.

:51:22.:51:27.

A team maybe we will call Claire phoned the manager to see how he

:51:27.:51:32.

explained the behaviour of the lads. I wanted to give you a ring about

:51:32.:51:37.

pricing. It seems extortionate. I don't understand how it got so

:51:37.:51:41.

high? Claire plains that the charges were not made clear. Plus

:51:41.:51:46.

we were charged twice for the jetter. Stuart councils up with a

:51:46.:51:52.

new explanation. Our calculations are at �65 for

:51:52.:51:58.

half an hour. I have just checked. They were on site for hour-and-a-

:51:58.:52:01.

half. Really? On our calculation it is

:52:01.:52:06.

would have come to more, they would have given you discount.

:52:06.:52:12.

He goes on to say that they were there for 1737 minutes.

:52:12.:52:16.

I can give you a re-worked invoice, but with the correct figures it

:52:16.:52:23.

will cost you more money. They wanted to charge us more!

:52:23.:52:29.

is outrageous pricing! I do apologise. I can offer a 10%

:52:29.:52:34.

discount in the future. Now, there is an offer we can

:52:34.:52:38.

refuse. As the manager is clearly backing the boys who overcharged us.

:52:38.:52:47.

We reckon to -- it is time to visit him in Bexley. We are meeting up

:52:47.:52:51.

with Stuart in Drainsafe Limited to ask him about the crazy amount of

:52:51.:52:57.

money we had to pay to have the drains unblocked and the hi-five

:52:57.:53:03.

moment that was beautiful. So, here is Stuart Johnson, any

:53:03.:53:10.

moment. Fingers crossed. Stuart is here. We are ready to go.

:53:10.:53:20.

That's him there. He has won... A trophy! I wonder what that is for?

:53:20.:53:30.
:53:30.:53:37.

Hi, Stuart, how is it going? Stuart? Stuart? BBC Rogue Traders,

:53:37.:53:43.

so that we are clear. So you can get in touch with us. I noticed you

:53:43.:53:53.
:53:53.:54:01.

were carrying trophies, was that for overcharging? Why can't we talk

:54:01.:54:08.

now? We are talking about �576 for an hour's work. That is what we are

:54:08.:54:14.

talking about. That is �576 for one hour's work with a hi-five and a

:54:14.:54:24.

celebration afterwards. I wonder what the trophies were

:54:24.:54:28.

for? It is clear that Stuart and his colleagues are not keen to chat.

:54:28.:54:33.

Stuart says he will talk to us later. I don't quite know what the

:54:33.:54:38.

problem with talking to us right now is, but there you go.

:54:38.:54:42.

Drainsafe! As you can see, operating, charging ridiculous

:54:42.:54:48.

somes of money and at the moment -- charging ridiculous sums of money

:54:48.:54:52.

and at the moment not willing to talk to us. That may change.

:54:52.:55:02.
:55:02.:55:05.

Stuart Johnson did call us later. What about the blatant rip-off that

:55:05.:55:15.
:55:15.:55:22.

involved us? The problem is... When we spoke to you afterwards about

:55:22.:55:28.

that you said in fact that it should have been more. So, we as

:55:28.:55:36.

the kust mer, we come to you to point that out -- we as the

:55:37.:55:42.

customer point it out to you, then you say you should be charging more

:55:43.:55:47.

for us. I must have misunderstood. Stuart

:55:47.:55:50.

says that the guys are not on commission. So there is no benefit

:55:50.:55:55.

to them for cheating the customer. We don't rip people off.

:55:55.:55:58.

Unfortunately, our evidence suggests the opposite.

:55:58.:56:01.

Matt, I've completed over 1,000 jobs.

:56:01.:56:08.

In all of that time, mate, I have had maybe ten complaints? That is

:56:08.:56:13.

not bad. I tell you what, Stuart... On that

:56:13.:56:18.

note, he says he will look at all of the evidence and get become to

:56:18.:56:23.

Thank you very much, Stuart. The company now tell us that they

:56:23.:56:27.

take our allegations seriously and deny they are rogues, they say that

:56:27.:56:31.

they are open and fair with the pricing. They say that they don't

:56:31.:56:38.

lie about the scale of the problems and always carry out a drain clean

:56:38.:56:42.

unless customers specify otherwise. They have offered a partial refund

:56:42.:56:48.

for the billing mistake. That the boys' high-five was to celebrate

:56:48.:56:54.

that they completed the job. They say that they went out of their way

:56:54.:56:59.

to help Susanne Black and they refunded Jas not because they were

:56:59.:57:03.

in the wrong, but because he complained so much.

:57:03.:57:11.

Meanwhile, Stuart and the two hi- fiverings are going here on the

:57:11.:57:15.

Rogue's Gallery. And the power steering problems.

:57:15.:57:21.

Dan Worthington says his system packs up about once a week. Mike

:57:21.:57:26.

Lynton says he had the same problem, that he had to pay more than �800

:57:26.:57:32.

to replace the steering column. And Will Frost has an interesting

:57:32.:57:37.

idea: Can I charge companies an admin fee for ringing them.

:57:37.:57:42.

Nice work. I like it. Keep sending your stories and tip-offs. Go to

:57:42.:57:52.
:57:52.:57:56.

Or write to us: Coming up next week: Vauxhall, the

:57:56.:58:01.

fault with the Insignia, is it causing cars to burst into flames?

:58:01.:58:04.

The Royal Mail about to raise the cost of stamps again. What sort of

:58:04.:58:10.

service are we getting in return? And ASDA roll-backs, the

:58:10.:58:14.

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