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This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting. | 0:00:03 | 0:00:09 | |
Can you imagine being a little boy | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
and watching men and women come and take your mother | 0:00:14 | 0:00:18 | |
and going and talking to people and asking them where she was? | 0:00:18 | 0:00:22 | |
Begging for her to come back? | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
The children lived in fear, the family was broken up, | 0:00:28 | 0:00:33 | |
and they couldn't find their mother. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:39 | |
And they went on and on, looking for their mother over the decades. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:45 | |
Jean McConville, a widow and mother of ten, | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
was killed and secretly buried by the IRA. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:53 | |
She would become known as one of the Disappeared. | 0:00:53 | 0:00:57 | |
Others disposed of in the same way remain missing. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:05 | |
They are thought to be buried in bogs somewhere in Ireland. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:09 | |
I lay waiting between turf-face and demesne wall. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:31 | |
Between heathery levels and glass-toothed stone. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:35 | |
My body was Braille for the creeping influences. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
Dawn suns groped over my head and cooled at my feet. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:48 | |
Through my fabrics and skins, the seeps of winter digested me. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
The illiterate routes | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
pondered and died in the cavings of stomach and socket. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
I lay waiting on the gravel bottom, my brain darkening... | 0:01:58 | 0:02:04 | |
If there was a hierarchy of victims of the Troubles, | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
the Disappeared were at the bottom. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
The invisible dead. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
Killing them wasn't punishment enough. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
I want to know why they were killed | 0:02:28 | 0:02:30 | |
and their bodies hidden from their families. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
And who was responsible? | 0:02:33 | 0:02:36 | |
And, above all, I want to put these questions to the republican movement | 0:02:36 | 0:02:41 | |
and it's leader Gerry Adams, | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
seen here in 1970 as a young IRA volunteer | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
and, for the last 30 years, the president of Sinn Fein. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:53 | |
I have learnt from a top republican source | 0:02:53 | 0:02:56 | |
that you were in fact the Belfast brigade commander | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
when Jean McConville was taken and executed | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
and that you in fact were ultimately responsible for her fate. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
That's not true, Darragh. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:10 | |
Do you bear any responsibility for what happened to these people? | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
All of us bear a responsibility, | 0:03:13 | 0:03:15 | |
those of us who are in leadership, and I have never shirked that. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
The explosion of violence from 1969 | 0:03:40 | 0:03:44 | |
forced thousands out of their homes. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
Housing became rigidly segregated, | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
areas dominated by one religion or the other. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
A Protestant, Jean McConville, made the mistake | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
of marrying a Catholic and raising their children in his faith, | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
but in the wrong place and at the wrong time. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:12 | |
There was ten of us, all in the one bedroom. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:22 | |
Like ten wee rats, so we were! | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
At that point of life, we hadn't got much, but we had each other. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:32 | |
But in these unreasonable times, mob culture prevailed | 0:04:32 | 0:04:37 | |
and the family wasn't safe. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:39 | |
Protestant people came to the house and, first of all, | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
they put my father out, so they did, and four weeks later, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
then they told us to get out. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
The McConvilles were forced to move | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
from Protestant East Belfast to the Catholic West. | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
They set up home in the newly built Divis Flats. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
But the McConvilles were people apart here too. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
Most of their neighbours had lived in this area, the Lower Falls, | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
for generations, with dense family networks. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
The McConvilles were strangers in a strange place. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:35 | |
If there was an epicentre for the conflict, it was here. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
This was a war zone. | 0:05:52 | 0:05:53 | |
GUNFIRE | 0:05:53 | 0:05:55 | |
Children, mothers, families, | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
were caught between the British Army and the IRA. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
GUNFIRE | 0:06:04 | 0:06:06 | |
You've shot a child, you pigs, ye! | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
Ah, she's not shot, she's all right. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
'They made all the Divis Flats and all Catholic places all no-go areas. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:25 | |
'There was gun battles going on. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:30 | |
'And bombing. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:33 | |
'A shooting was nothing.' | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
It was just part of growing up, what I thought, when I was a kid, | 0:06:37 | 0:06:41 | |
just growing up in these times, this is the way life was. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
'At that point of life all I was interested was in pigeons. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
'Although all the bad things was happening around the Divis Flats,' | 0:06:56 | 0:07:00 | |
I think we were still happy then. | 0:07:00 | 0:07:02 | |
1972 was just days old when Michael's father died of cancer. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:08 | |
Mother Jean was left to raise the ten children alone. | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
Later that year, behind the closed doors of her home, | 0:07:19 | 0:07:23 | |
Jean McConville suffered a nervous breakdown. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
Outside, the war intensified, | 0:07:28 | 0:07:30 | |
and alongside it, an atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
Few would even make eye contact with soldiers. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:39 | |
What are you lifting me for? | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
Complete loyalty was demanded by the IRA. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
It was given freely by most. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
MUSIC: "Coz I Love You" by Slade | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
There were odd contradictions in the early days. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
The army ran discos in nearby bases. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
You're both Catholic girls | 0:08:16 | 0:08:18 | |
who've come for a night out with British soldiers. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:20 | |
Isn't that a dangerous thing to do in your circumstances? | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
It is, yes. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
But, erm, we still take the risk, we think it's worth it. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
Catholic girls knew they could pay a big price for a good night out. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:39 | |
Tarring and feathering. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:40 | |
These were wartime rules, with the IRA exerting strict social control. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:48 | |
Jean McConville's children | 0:08:59 | 0:09:00 | |
say their mother came to the attention of the IRA | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
because she helped an injured British soldier. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
GUNFIRE | 0:09:06 | 0:09:08 | |
My mother put a cushion under his head. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
My mother would have helped anybody, | 0:09:17 | 0:09:18 | |
that's just the type of person she was. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
That's where it all started to go wrong for us. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
The McConvilles believe their mother was in the IRA's sights | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
from that night. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:33 | |
Six and two, 62! | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
Soon after, Jean was at the local bingo and got called out. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
She was told that one of her children had been injured | 0:09:44 | 0:09:46 | |
and a car was waiting to take her to the hospital. | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
It was a trap. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
The IRA took her away and interrogated her. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
In the early hours of the morning, she was found wandering the streets, | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
beaten and disorientated. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
Her daughter Agnes remembers her coming home. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
'There was a lot of blood on her. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:20 | |
'Her face was all swollen and everything, black and blue.' | 0:10:21 | 0:10:25 | |
And all she could say was... When we got her settled, | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
got her a cup of tea and gave her cigarettes. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
And must have smoked the cigarettes one after another and drank the tea, | 0:10:33 | 0:10:38 | |
and she started to get sick, so she did, with her nerves. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
Later that day, the IRA came back for Jean. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
Around tea time, a rap came to the door. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
She was in the bathroom getting washed, | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
and the next thing they were shouting, | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
"Where is she, where is she?" | 0:11:10 | 0:11:12 | |
All the people just barged into the house. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
There were some of these people had a mask on, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
some of them hadn't got a mask on. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
She was squealing, squealing her head off, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
she was shouting, "Help me, help me." | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
All of us were just wrapped round her. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:31 | |
All crying and squealing. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
I remember one of the girls talking, so I do, | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
which I knew, cos she hadn't got a mask on, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
but she used to be a neighbour of ours. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
Her and her sister was there. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:47 | |
They kept trying to calm us down cos they knew us, | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
and they knew us by name. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:53 | |
Michael's older brother Archie followed their mother outside | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
until the IRA put a gun to his head and ordered him away. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:04 | |
We could hear her squealing, still squealing, | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
and we looked over the banister in Divis Flats, | 0:12:12 | 0:12:16 | |
and there she was getting thrown into the back of a van. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
And that was the last time...I actually seen her. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:24 | |
I think it was about five days later, | 0:12:45 | 0:12:47 | |
an IRA man came to the door and rapped the door, | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
and, eh, handed... | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
my mother's purse... | 0:12:54 | 0:12:56 | |
and her wedding rings. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
We asked where my mother was | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
and they just says, "Look, I was just told to bring these rings to you. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
"I know nothing about it." | 0:13:05 | 0:13:07 | |
And that was it. Walked away. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:09 | |
I knew she wasn't going to come back. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
I knew straightaway. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:16 | |
And when the purse and all came through, I said, no return. | 0:13:17 | 0:13:20 | |
Michael says he then got a direct threat from the IRA - | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
"Say nothing, or else." | 0:13:32 | 0:13:34 | |
He says a gang of boys from the IRA's youth wing, Na Fianna, abducted him. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:38 | |
They pulled a hood over my head. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
It was the sleeve of a jumper, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:51 | |
a woolly jumper, cos I could see through the mask. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
They took me down out of the Divis Flats into a house. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:01 | |
They tied me to the chair. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
They were hitting me with sticks. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
They were putting a gun to my head | 0:14:13 | 0:14:15 | |
and they says they were going to shoot me. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:17 | |
I'd looked out the side of my eye and there was a man | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
and he was telling the younger ones what to do with me. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:26 | |
So they had me for, I would say, for about three hours | 0:14:26 | 0:14:29 | |
and they says they were going to shoot me. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
If I told anything about any member of the IRA, | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
they would shoot me or shoot some more family members. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
They fired a gun - | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
a cap gun - | 0:14:40 | 0:14:42 | |
and of them stuck a penknife into my leg. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:44 | |
They took me over to the Divis Flats and let me go at the stairs. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
I hobbled up the stairs into the house. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
I had just turned 11 at the time. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
The children waited for news of their mother. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
It was coming up to Christmas, | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
and that Christmas, I realised there was no Santa Claus. | 0:15:21 | 0:15:27 | |
The Christmas came and went. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:30 | |
It was fully six weeks after Jean's disappearance | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
that newspapers caught up with the story. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
It was front page across Ireland - TV cameras followed. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:45 | |
Agnes, eh, you were in the night your mummy disappeared, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
can you tell me what happened? | 0:15:49 | 0:15:50 | |
My mummy was over at my granny's | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
and she just came over | 0:15:52 | 0:15:54 | |
and four young girls came in into the hall, | 0:15:54 | 0:15:56 | |
she was only coming into the kitchen, and they came in, | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
they ordered all the kids up the stairs | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
and they just walked in and they took my mummy. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
Do you know why your mummy went away? Why she was taken away? | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
No. She never done anything, so she never. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
She'd never done anything anybody... | 0:16:13 | 0:16:14 | |
She was with us in the house, at nights she just went to bingo. | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
When do you think you'll see your mummy again? | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
Don't know. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
We keep our fingers crossed and pray hard for her coming back. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
Can you remember what she was wearing that night? | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
I can remember her wearing red shoes. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:39 | |
And a tweedy coat, so I can. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
And the head scarf. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:45 | |
She put on her coat and her scarf, | 0:16:45 | 0:16:47 | |
she had on her red slippers and blue trousers, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
an orange check coat and a brown and white jumper. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:55 | |
Even in the madness of the times, this was a sensational story, | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
and might have run for weeks. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:07 | |
But Republicans concocted a lie. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
And a message was sent out - Jean McConville wasn't being held captive, | 0:17:12 | 0:17:17 | |
just in hiding because of publicity. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
She had been murdered weeks earlier, | 0:17:21 | 0:17:26 | |
but the lie worked. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
The headlines were amended. The public had been conned. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
And the McConvilles had been wronged - again. | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
The children were hearing a different story on the streets. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
Children growing up round Divis Flats would hear | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
what their parents were saying - | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
"Your mummy's a tout and your mummy's this and your mummy's that, | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
"and your mummy will never be back," and all this here, you know. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
She's gone with a British soldier. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
This wasn't coming from the adults, this was coming from the children. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
The McConvilles were now outcasts. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
They had no-one to fall back on. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
And within months, the children were scattered into care homes | 0:18:12 | 0:18:15 | |
across Northern Ireland. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
These welfare notes of one of the children | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
have just been released to the family. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
They confirm in official documentation | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
just exactly how isolated they were. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
The first note goes to the 13th of December '72. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
Days after their mum has been taken away. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
An official with the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
phones to say that this family have been apparently | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
looking after themselves for the past four or five days - | 0:18:48 | 0:18:51 | |
a group of children aged between 16 and six - | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
since their mother "has apparently been abducted by an organisation." | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
Now, isn't that astonishing? | 0:19:00 | 0:19:02 | |
Within DAYS...the word was out. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
This is on official documentation. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:07 | |
A note is made here that the "neighbours, etc," | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
are "unsympathetic" towards her. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
That's the mother, Jean. Although less so towards the children. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
We have reports of the parish priest in the run up to Christmas | 0:19:19 | 0:19:25 | |
saying he's aware of the circumstance | 0:19:25 | 0:19:27 | |
but being described here as being "very unsympathetic towards the family and their plight." | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
The parish priest apparently says he would call but didn't think he would help. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:38 | |
We're seven days out of Christmas. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
Jean McConville was not the only person | 0:19:46 | 0:19:48 | |
disappeared by the IRA in 1972. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
The IRA took and buried three of their own men that same year. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
Joe Lynskey, | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
Seamus Wright, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
and the youngest of them all - | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
17-year-old Kevin McKee. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
# If you hate the British Army, clap your hands | 0:20:14 | 0:20:22 | |
# If you hate the British Army, hate the British Army, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:26 | |
# Hate the British Army, clap your hands! # | 0:20:26 | 0:20:28 | |
Kevin McKee, like many of his age, | 0:20:38 | 0:20:40 | |
had progressed from stone throwing into more serious violence. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
He was a member of the IRA's youth wing, Na Fianna, in Ballymurphy, West Belfast. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:57 | |
This was Republican base camp. | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
The home place of Gerry Adams - where kids fell into line. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:03 | |
Kevin's sister Marie saw it all. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:08 | |
To me, he was just like all the other teenagers. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
He didn't do nothing different to what everyone else was doing. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
Throwing stones, breaking things up | 0:21:19 | 0:21:22 | |
they used to put Union Jacks up a lot, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
and they'd scale up to the very top, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
and take the Union Jack down | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
and set fire to it and then everyone clapped. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
Kevin was, no matter what they say he done, he was a child. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:39 | |
He was 17 years of age. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
Maybe there was other things going on that I wasn't aware of, | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
because I was too young, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
but to me Kevin was doing what everybody else done. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
When Kevin joined the IRA's Belfast 2nd Battalion, | 0:21:55 | 0:21:59 | |
Richard O'Rawe joined with him. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
I knew Kevin very well, very well. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
Kevin was a lovely lad, if the truth be told. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:08 | |
I lived just on the next street, | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
we were very, very close in terms of our friendship. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
Kevin was the first person that I ever had a drink with | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
and I wasn't allowed to drink. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:20 | |
My father allowed me to join the IRA but he wouldn't allow me | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
to have a bottle of beer. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:24 | |
What was in your head though, when you went out there and signed up? | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
I was an Irish patriot. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
You saw yourself as a freedom fighter? | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
Nothing else. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:34 | |
As far as I was concerned, this was about freeing Ireland from Britain. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
Things went awfully wrong for Kevin McKee shortly afterwards. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:45 | |
He and another IRA man, Seamus Wright, | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
were recruited by British Army intelligence. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:53 | |
But the IRA found out about them and the two men confessed. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
Well, it was bad business. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
He went from being an IRA volunteer | 0:23:00 | 0:23:02 | |
to being actively involved in anti-IRA activities for the enemy. | 0:23:02 | 0:23:07 | |
No matter what way you look at it, he was a traitor. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
You look back and you say...what was it all about? | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
Kevin McKee and Seamus Wright revealed to the IRA | 0:23:19 | 0:23:23 | |
details about a covert British Army operation, | 0:23:23 | 0:23:27 | |
in which a mobile laundry van called the Four Square | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
was used to spy on the IRA. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
The IRA then ambushed the van, killing a British soldier. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:40 | |
It was a propaganda coup for the Republicans. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:43 | |
Kevin may have thought his role | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
in exposing the army spying operation had saved him, | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
but the IRA came knocking anyway. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
I had said to him, "The IRA's been looking for you." | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
He says, "I've done nothing wrong." | 0:24:01 | 0:24:02 | |
I says, "Well, they're definitely looking for you | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
"and I'm just warning you off." | 0:24:05 | 0:24:07 | |
And it was then I took a photograph of him and that was it. | 0:24:07 | 0:24:11 | |
And that was the day that the IRA said he was under arrest. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:14 | |
I never seen him again. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:16 | |
That was the last. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:17 | |
The family said nothing to the police because they were afraid | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
and because of rumours - thought to have been spread by the IRA - | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
that Kevin was staying away of his own accord. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
Those rumours suited the IRA. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
All you heard was, "Oh, we seen Kevin." | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
If you went to ask anybody - "Oh, we seen him." | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
You know, he was in art school or something like that. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
And then somebody said they seen him in England. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
It was too much for Kevin's mother Mary - | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
she suffered a nervous breakdown. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
My sister didn't want to accept it. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
Didn't want to accept that there was something wrong, so... | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
I think she built it all up inside her, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:03 | |
hoping that he was coming back every day. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:05 | |
She imagined him places. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
She stopped cars. Asked to check the boots. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
And she was running everywhere looking for him, | 0:25:18 | 0:25:20 | |
and getting us to come and getting the kids out of the house, | 0:25:20 | 0:25:22 | |
getting their coats on at night - | 0:25:22 | 0:25:24 | |
"He might be here and he might be there." | 0:25:24 | 0:25:26 | |
And the kids were running about in the cold in the winter. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
So you were trying to deal with losing your brother | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
and then you were trying to deal with your mother losing her mind | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
over losing her son. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:39 | |
The IRA held the men for weeks. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:45 | |
Then one Friday, a surprise call to Mary McKee from her son | 0:25:47 | 0:25:51 | |
gave her hope. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
He was calling from a town just across the border | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
in the Irish Republic. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:57 | |
My sister got a phone call - he was down in Monaghan | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
and ringing from a priest's house, | 0:26:02 | 0:26:04 | |
and he asked his mother if she'd come up. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:06 | |
And that was on a Friday, and she's says, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
"You'll have to wait till Monday", | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
because she didn't have a clue what was going on - | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
she was in and out of the mental hospital. | 0:26:12 | 0:26:15 | |
She didn't tell us till the Monday. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:16 | |
When the family eventually set off to Monaghan, three days later, | 0:26:20 | 0:26:24 | |
they expected to be reunited with Kevin. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:27 | |
Me and my sister went down and my husband Jim along with Mary, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:33 | |
brought him down clothes, and when we went to the door | 0:26:33 | 0:26:35 | |
the man said, "He's not here. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:36 | |
"He has just left and yous can take your clothes back with yous." | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
I've discovered that house where Kevin McKee, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:47 | |
possibly with Seamus Wright, was staying in. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
A terraced house in Monaghan Town. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:53 | |
It was the home of Fergal O'Hanlon, | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
a legendary IRA figure from the 1950s. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
The McKees say that it was his father that answered the door to them after Kevin phoned. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:10 | |
I don't think Kevin knew that he was going to his death. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:14 | |
I don't think so. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:16 | |
Cos he wouldn't have asked for his clothes if he had've. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:18 | |
Four decades later, Kevin's aunt and his sister Phil | 0:27:21 | 0:27:25 | |
are going back to Monaghan, to the house that Kevin called them to. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:30 | |
They're hoping for information that might help them find his remains. | 0:27:33 | 0:27:37 | |
Ohhh.. Just a bit of a feeling coming over me, you know. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:45 | |
Whenever you know you are coming to the spot that he was. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:47 | |
The last spot that we know where he was. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
A sister of Fergal O'Hanlon's lives in the house now. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:57 | |
She had nothing to do with what happened to Kevin, | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
but the McKees have written to her requesting a meeting. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
How did you feel in there? | 0:28:10 | 0:28:11 | |
I was actually crying. I says, "To think that Kevin was here." | 0:28:11 | 0:28:15 | |
She said, "Are you sure it was my father?" | 0:28:15 | 0:28:17 | |
I said, "Yes, he addressed himself as Mr O'Hanlon." | 0:28:17 | 0:28:19 | |
But she had no notion that her house was where Kevin was last heard of? | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
No, she said, "Definitely, it's the first she's heard of it." | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
He's missed by everybody | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
and we just want to get his body back | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
so that we can put his name on the grave | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
and we can pray and just go up and tell him how sorry we are | 0:28:35 | 0:28:39 | |
that we weren't there that Friday. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:41 | |
So terrible me not going up that Friday. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
I feel awful Mary didn't tell us, you know, the Friday. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
SHE SIGHS HEAVILY | 0:28:54 | 0:28:56 | |
The McKee's never heard from Kevin again. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:03 | |
Seamus Wright also vanished. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:05 | |
The practice of disappearing inconvenient bodies in the Irish countryside | 0:29:12 | 0:29:17 | |
goes back to the 1920s and the Irish War of Independence. | 0:29:17 | 0:29:22 | |
The practice was resurrected by the IRA in 1972. | 0:29:22 | 0:29:27 | |
Traditionally alleged informers were shot dead - | 0:29:28 | 0:29:32 | |
bodies displayed on roadsides - as examples to all. | 0:29:32 | 0:29:36 | |
The rules for informants are the same the world over. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:39 | |
Veteran Republican Billy McKee knows those rules. | 0:29:40 | 0:29:44 | |
He helped set up the Provisional IRA in 1969. | 0:29:44 | 0:29:47 | |
I was OC Belfast Brigade. | 0:29:50 | 0:29:52 | |
You were the boss man? Mm. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:54 | |
Did you have many people working with you? | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
Were there many in the IRA at the time? | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
The IRA was never as strong since 1920, | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
as it was when I was in charge. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
From your perspective - people knew the rules? | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
Yes, you were warned about it when you joined the IRA. | 0:30:13 | 0:30:17 | |
You were told all...what could happen to you, you could be arrested, | 0:30:17 | 0:30:21 | |
imprisoned, beaten, taken away, shot dead somewhere... | 0:30:21 | 0:30:25 | |
But you were warned not to inform. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:30 | |
And you were told what the penalty was. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
At the time of the 1972 disappearances, | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
Billy McKee was in jail and no longer in charge. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:41 | |
Looking back, what was the point of disappearing people? | 0:30:41 | 0:30:45 | |
I couldn't tell you. I wasn't in command. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
I'd no say in the matter. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
I wasn't approached about it. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
It was up to the people that were in charge | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
to do what they thought was right. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:57 | |
They thought they were doing right. Well, it's up to them. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
Billy McKee was from an older generation of IRA activists. | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
Gerry Adams was part of the next generation - | 0:31:07 | 0:31:10 | |
though he's always denied being a member. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
Gerry Adams says he wasn't in the IRA. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
Gerry Adams's speaking for himself. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:19 | |
Was Gerry Adams in the IRA? | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
Ask him will he come up and say that to me face to face. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:25 | |
I understand that Gerry Adams joined the IRA around 1966. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:34 | |
He rose up the ranks quickly. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
Here he is accompanied by senior IRA men | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
at the funeral of a volunteer in 1970. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:42 | |
Interned in Long Kesh prison camp - | 0:31:45 | 0:31:47 | |
in June, 1972, the 23-year-old was released to represent the IRA | 0:31:47 | 0:31:53 | |
in talks with the British government. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:55 | |
Later that same year - the bloodiest of the conflict - | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
he was promoted to the post of OC - Officer Commanding - | 0:32:04 | 0:32:09 | |
the top rank in the Belfast Brigade of the IRA. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
Former IRA members from that era that I have spoken to, | 0:32:15 | 0:32:18 | |
say that he was in charge there | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
when Jean McConville was taken in December that year. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:24 | |
Today Gerry Adams leads Sinn Fein | 0:32:24 | 0:32:26 | |
and can claim to be the head of Irish Republicanism. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:29 | |
Over the course of The Troubles at least 16 people were disappeared, | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
15 of them by the IRA, who finally stopped the practice in 1981. | 0:32:37 | 0:32:43 | |
The IRA's governing army council is said to have ordered an end to it. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:50 | |
As for those disappeared - | 0:32:53 | 0:32:56 | |
they were swallowed up in the silence of their unmarked graves. | 0:32:56 | 0:32:59 | |
I knew winter cold Like the nuzzle of fjords At my thighs - | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
The soaked fledge, the heavy Swaddle of hides. | 0:33:07 | 0:33:10 | |
My skull hibernated In the wet nest of my hair. | 0:33:14 | 0:33:17 | |
It was the IRA ceasefire of 1994 that changed everything. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:32 | |
With the guns silent, | 0:33:32 | 0:33:34 | |
the families of the disappeared could finally be heard. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
A campaign to recover the disappeared began - | 0:33:39 | 0:33:43 | |
and it had powerful allies. | 0:33:43 | 0:33:44 | |
Today there are families that have still not had the chance to grieve in peace, | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
to visit the graves of their loved ones, | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
to reunite after years of separation. | 0:33:56 | 0:33:58 | |
It is time to allow families to be whole again. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:01 | |
You first spoke about this back in 1995, and Gerry Adams was in the audience that day. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:14 | |
Were you aware of it as an issue as far back then? | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
I was, | 0:34:17 | 0:34:18 | |
but I have to say that it was different and more personal to me | 0:34:18 | 0:34:21 | |
once I actually met a real, live flesh-and-blood mother | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
who was looking for her boy. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:25 | |
That woman was Margaret McKinney | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
whose son Brian was disappeared in 1978. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:33 | |
She had succeeded in getting the ear and the support | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
of the most powerful politician in the world. | 0:34:38 | 0:34:41 | |
We were sitting outside the Oval Office | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
and when the door opened, President Clinton and his wife was just there. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:50 | |
I couldn't believe it. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:52 | |
And he said to me that day, he says, | 0:34:53 | 0:34:55 | |
I promise you, I'll help you find your son. | 0:34:55 | 0:34:58 | |
She was a very impressive woman, I thought. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
Just in her simple... love for her son, | 0:35:03 | 0:35:07 | |
she was willing to go on with her life, but she wanted her baby back, | 0:35:07 | 0:35:12 | |
so she could bury him properly. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:14 | |
And he did, you know. He did help me. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
I will never forget President Clinton - | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
he will always be my President. | 0:35:20 | 0:35:22 | |
Margaret's son Brian and his friend John McClory | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
had been accused of taking IRA weapons | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
and using them in a robbery. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:32 | |
The money had been paid back, but it made no difference. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:37 | |
He was the one child you had to be very protective of, | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
and his friends were very protective of him, too, | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
for he was very childish. | 0:35:45 | 0:35:47 | |
A great singer. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
His favourite was Engelbert Humperdinck - | 0:35:51 | 0:35:54 | |
Please Release Me, Let Me Go. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:56 | |
I know in my heart, too, he would have been crying out for me. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:04 | |
Oh, God love him. | 0:36:06 | 0:36:07 | |
President Clinton spoke to Gerry Adams who promised to help. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
It was around this time that a special IRA team | 0:36:17 | 0:36:19 | |
was told to find the remains of the disappeared - | 0:36:19 | 0:36:22 | |
and report back. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:24 | |
Fr Alec Reid, Adams's long-time friend and confidante, | 0:36:24 | 0:36:28 | |
agreed to be an intermediary. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:30 | |
The IRA leadership decided to help the families | 0:36:30 | 0:36:35 | |
and these people who had disappeared. | 0:36:35 | 0:36:38 | |
They spent one year looking for the IRA people who had dug the graves | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
for these people, then they hoped they'd be able | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
to lead people like me to where these bodies were. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
Fr Reid went on an odyssey of bog and death, and farce, too. | 0:36:52 | 0:36:57 | |
I was taken to a country road - a remote country road - | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
and told to wait there. | 0:37:03 | 0:37:05 | |
And after a few minutes these two men in balaclavas came out of a wood. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:10 | |
Then they brought me to a field. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:12 | |
A place the IRA uses as a shooting range, you know, | 0:37:12 | 0:37:16 | |
for practising shooting. | 0:37:16 | 0:37:18 | |
They brought us into this tent | 0:37:18 | 0:37:20 | |
and they cooked sausages and rashers and fried eggs for us all | 0:37:20 | 0:37:24 | |
in the middle of the night. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:26 | |
Why were you taken there? | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
Because some of the bodies were there, you see. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:32 | |
Then they brought me to a field, | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
and they said there are two bodies here. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
Look for a tree that's about 20 years old, | 0:37:37 | 0:37:40 | |
and if you find one the bodies should be there. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:43 | |
And then there was another one | 0:37:43 | 0:37:44 | |
and the body had been buried in the front garden of the house. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
When the IRA decided they had found out as much as they could, | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
nine families were contacted individually. | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
Among them, the family of Columba McVeigh. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:07 | |
19-year old Columba from Tyrone had disappeared in 1975. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:12 | |
The IRA told his brother they'd killed and buried him. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
My immediate thoughts went back, how am I going to tell my mother this? | 0:38:17 | 0:38:22 | |
It's probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life - | 0:38:22 | 0:38:25 | |
and I mean that, with any shadow of a doubt - | 0:38:25 | 0:38:28 | |
was to go and break that news. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:31 | |
Not, you know, that he was dead, | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
but that this horrible thing that he'd been shot... | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
..and buried like a dog. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:38 | |
And I'll never forget the first words she said to me. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:42 | |
You know, she says, "The bastards hadn't the balls to tell me herself." | 0:38:42 | 0:38:47 | |
And I remember thinking, you know what - that's correct. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
Afterwards the IRA issued a statement | 0:38:58 | 0:39:02 | |
in which they admitted killing and disappearing nine people - | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
Jean McConville, Columba McVeigh, | 0:39:06 | 0:39:12 | |
over here wee Brian McKinney - | 0:39:12 | 0:39:15 | |
and as far as they were concerned | 0:39:15 | 0:39:17 | |
there weren't any others that they were responsible for. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
That wasn't to prove to be the case. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
But it did acknowledge that they'd caused incalculable pain and distress | 0:39:22 | 0:39:26 | |
and they said here that they felt they'd established | 0:39:26 | 0:39:30 | |
the burial sites of these people | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
and that they hoped for a speedy retrieval of the bodies. | 0:39:33 | 0:39:37 | |
Gerry Adams, almost completely recast as a statesman-in-waiting. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:46 | |
was clearly committed to achieving this dramatic turnabout | 0:39:46 | 0:39:50 | |
of IRA policy. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:51 | |
The organisation had moved from burying people | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
to helping to find them. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
These folks were killed, | 0:39:56 | 0:39:59 | |
secretly buried, | 0:39:59 | 0:40:01 | |
and their families didn't have a grave to go to. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:05 | |
And I think that's, you know, a grave injustice to them. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:12 | |
I think it is something which Republicans have acknowledged, | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
certainly the IRA, for its part, has apologised. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
So it's very much an issue that Republicans have a responsibility, | 0:40:18 | 0:40:24 | |
in my opinion, to rectify - in so far as that's possible | 0:40:24 | 0:40:29 | |
and something which I have been trying to do for some time. | 0:40:29 | 0:40:32 | |
Behind the scenes, in May 1999, a deal was done with | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
the Irish and British governments to find the disappeared. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
IRA members could give information about the killings | 0:40:40 | 0:40:43 | |
and burials without fear of prosecution. | 0:40:43 | 0:40:46 | |
A matter of hours after the deal was formalised, | 0:40:50 | 0:40:53 | |
the body of alleged IRA informant Eamon Molloy was recovered | 0:40:53 | 0:40:57 | |
in a brand-new coffin at the ancient churchyard of Faughart | 0:40:57 | 0:41:02 | |
on the southern side of the border. | 0:41:02 | 0:41:04 | |
What was it like that day when you came here? | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
It was an unusual and eerie scene, certainly one | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
we'd never see before or never since either. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
About where we are now, when you look down, you could see a brand-new | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
clean coffin sitting in the trees down there. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:21 | |
That's the Blessed Tree and there's a Blessed Well at the back of it. | 0:41:21 | 0:41:26 | |
The coffin had been left under the Sacred Tree of St Bridget, | 0:41:26 | 0:41:30 | |
the patron saint of lost children. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
Eamon Molloy's family then discovered that before he'd been shot | 0:41:33 | 0:41:37 | |
Eamon was given the last rites by a priest. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
The priest, now dead, told the family that Eamon wanted them | 0:41:40 | 0:41:44 | |
to know that he wasn't an informer. | 0:41:44 | 0:41:46 | |
Searches began for the others. | 0:41:52 | 0:41:55 | |
Did you guys think that, you know, | 0:41:57 | 0:41:59 | |
"This was very easy, all the other finds will be just as simple"? | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
Well, we knew that a number of digs were | 0:42:03 | 0:42:05 | |
about to commence and, I suppose, the fact that this body was left | 0:42:05 | 0:42:08 | |
here to be collected and taken away would lead one to believe that | 0:42:08 | 0:42:14 | |
a number of bodies would be recovered in the short term. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
The victims' group WAVE, which continues to support | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
the families today, helped them get their message out | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
from the start. | 0:42:25 | 0:42:26 | |
We don't want anybody prosecuted. | 0:42:27 | 0:42:30 | |
We don't want anything other than to know the whereabouts of the bodies. | 0:42:30 | 0:42:34 | |
Six weeks later, Margaret McKinney, who had | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
taken her campaign to President Clinton, got her son back. | 0:42:40 | 0:42:44 | |
In the first few shovelfuls was | 0:42:50 | 0:42:54 | |
Brian's wee shoes | 0:42:54 | 0:42:55 | |
and his wee mouth organ. | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
He loved playing the mouth organ. | 0:42:59 | 0:43:01 | |
God, how could they do that to him? | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
And he is always with me, anyway, he's always with me. | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
Brian was found in a double grave with | 0:43:20 | 0:43:23 | |
his friend John McClory in County Monaghan just across the border. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:27 | |
The deal with the IRA meant that no evidence could be | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
collected at the burial sites for use in prosecution | 0:43:34 | 0:43:38 | |
but the actual cause of death was recorded. | 0:43:38 | 0:43:41 | |
You were involved quite a few of the cases of the disappeared. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:46 | |
What's common? | 0:43:46 | 0:43:47 | |
Those of us that worked on these cases | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
were of the opinion that a vehicle had been used, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:52 | |
that the person who was abducted and going to be murdered | 0:43:52 | 0:43:56 | |
was brought to the location accompanied by probably two, | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
three others. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:01 | |
The person was bound. | 0:44:01 | 0:44:02 | |
They were walked a short distance, probably to a grave that had | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
been partially dug or was to be dug there and then, and the bodies | 0:44:06 | 0:44:10 | |
were dumped and concealed in a shallow grave. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:14 | |
In general, a single shot, probably a small calibre at the base of | 0:44:14 | 0:44:19 | |
the skull, corresponding with the stem of the brain | 0:44:19 | 0:44:23 | |
which would result in instantaneous death. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
In one or two instances, large stones had been placed on top of the body. | 0:44:29 | 0:44:33 | |
Why was that? This may have been because in some of | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
the summers of the past, which were very good, the bog shrinks | 0:44:36 | 0:44:41 | |
and so your body may rise. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:43 | |
When the digs began, that summer of 1999, the expectation | 0:44:46 | 0:44:50 | |
among the families was that the disappeared would be found in days. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:55 | |
Jean McConville's daughter Agnes dreamt about her mother, | 0:44:58 | 0:45:01 | |
imagining her by a beach on Dundalk Bay. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
I had a dream one night, | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
I heard this cry, | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
and I see my mother with a headscarf on her... | 0:45:11 | 0:45:15 | |
..and all I could hear was her saying, "I'm out on the beach, | 0:45:17 | 0:45:20 | |
"please find me, I'm out on the beach, please find me." | 0:45:20 | 0:45:23 | |
I went out to the beach to see out of curiosity, | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
would there be any sign of her? | 0:45:30 | 0:45:32 | |
And the following week | 0:45:36 | 0:45:39 | |
I heard they were starting to dig out in Templetown. | 0:45:39 | 0:45:43 | |
Agnes's dreams had led her | 0:45:45 | 0:45:47 | |
right to where the IRA said they had buried her mother - | 0:45:47 | 0:45:51 | |
Templetown beach on Dundalk Bay, where a search began. | 0:45:51 | 0:45:54 | |
Six and a half weeks was a long, long time for | 0:45:58 | 0:46:01 | |
anybody to be sitting, lying, waiting | 0:46:01 | 0:46:05 | |
on their mother's remains. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:07 | |
There wasn't a day went past I never brought flowers. | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
The days seemed longer and longer. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:27 | |
She wasn't there. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
We all said to ourselves, "We're never going to get her now" | 0:46:29 | 0:46:33 | |
because they'd dug the whole beach up. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:36 | |
And the worst thing was when we got the news | 0:46:36 | 0:46:39 | |
that the dig was stopping. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
We were sure, 100% sure, that she was here, so we were. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:46 | |
We were just heartbroken leaving this beach. | 0:46:48 | 0:46:52 | |
The information was wrong. | 0:46:55 | 0:46:57 | |
Just three of the victims identified by the IRA were recovered | 0:46:58 | 0:47:02 | |
that first year. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:03 | |
Four more years passed before Jean McConville's body was found | 0:47:06 | 0:47:10 | |
by a local man out walking on another beach nearby. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:14 | |
And this was just plain, just sand. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
Just this spot where the bank and everything had fallen down | 0:47:24 | 0:47:29 | |
and I just seen the piece of cloth. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:31 | |
I pulled it up, and kept pulling, I could see, like, a pattern | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
coming in the... | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
In the fabric? In the fabric, yeah. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
And I put my hand down and I knew it was a bone. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
The first thing that came into my head was Jean McConville. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:49 | |
I went over to the car and I got a little bottle of holy water. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
And I blessed... | 0:47:57 | 0:47:58 | |
..and said a little prayer. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
I knew there was a body that had been laying there | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
for a long time on their own. I just... | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
I Just felt like I had to do it. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:12 | |
31 years after she had been taken, | 0:48:27 | 0:48:29 | |
Jean McConville's children were now able to grieve. | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
BELL TOLLS | 0:48:35 | 0:48:36 | |
Her funeral took her past Divis for the last time. | 0:48:38 | 0:48:42 | |
By the standards of Republican west Belfast, it was a small affair. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:48 | |
But her nine surviving children, | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
long ago farmed out to various orphanages, | 0:48:52 | 0:48:55 | |
came together to lay their mother to rest. | 0:48:55 | 0:48:58 | |
Always wondering what was going | 0:49:10 | 0:49:12 | |
through my mother's head. | 0:49:12 | 0:49:14 | |
Knowing the steps what I'm taking there myself, | 0:49:15 | 0:49:18 | |
that was the last steps of my mother's life | 0:49:18 | 0:49:20 | |
which she was taking, coming down here to her death. | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
I just can't get my head round it - | 0:49:27 | 0:49:29 | |
how another human being can do this to another human being. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
We were going to be orphans when they done this here to us. | 0:49:34 | 0:49:37 | |
When they killed our mother, they knew we'd be orphans, | 0:49:37 | 0:49:40 | |
they knew there was nobody else to look after us. | 0:49:40 | 0:49:42 | |
They knew what they were doing, | 0:49:42 | 0:49:43 | |
and they knew what they were leaving behind... | 0:49:43 | 0:49:47 | |
so they do. | 0:49:47 | 0:49:48 | |
I just can't get my head round that, so I can't. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:53 | |
The same nightmares are there all the time, seeing them coming in. | 0:49:58 | 0:50:02 | |
It never goes away, so it doesn't. | 0:50:03 | 0:50:05 | |
And the hurt's always there, too, so it is. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
The majority of those on the IRA's list were still missing. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:29 | |
The promised cooperation was coming up short. | 0:50:29 | 0:50:33 | |
Maybe because some involved in the burials were dead, or the terrain | 0:50:33 | 0:50:36 | |
had changed and also because some of the IRA just didn't want to help. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:41 | |
But there were others who weren't even on the IRA list, | 0:50:50 | 0:50:53 | |
like two men disappeared by the organisation | 0:50:53 | 0:50:56 | |
in the borderlands of South Armagh. | 0:50:56 | 0:50:58 | |
More than 150 members of the British security forces were killed | 0:51:01 | 0:51:05 | |
in the countryside around the town of Crossmaglen. | 0:51:05 | 0:51:08 | |
Here the IRA's South Armagh Brigade, | 0:51:09 | 0:51:12 | |
waged a ruthless war by their own particular rules. | 0:51:12 | 0:51:16 | |
If you fell foul of them everyone knew the consequences. | 0:51:17 | 0:51:20 | |
Gerry Evans, 24, from Crossmaglen, was disappeared in 1979. | 0:51:25 | 0:51:31 | |
He wasn't on the list | 0:51:31 | 0:51:32 | |
because the IRA never admitted taking him. | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
We did report him missing. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:40 | |
They said maybe he'd turn up in a field somewhere, you know, | 0:51:40 | 0:51:45 | |
in years to come. | 0:51:45 | 0:51:47 | |
So that wasn't very nice. | 0:51:49 | 0:51:51 | |
And you were afraid to ask anyone. | 0:51:52 | 0:51:54 | |
But there was no-one coming forward with any information. | 0:51:56 | 0:52:00 | |
There was a silence. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:01 | |
And then Charlie was in the group out looking for him too - | 0:52:04 | 0:52:08 | |
that's Charlie Armstrong. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:10 | |
Gerry's neighbour, Charlie Armstrong, was himself taken | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
and disappeared two years later. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
His name wasn't on the IRA list either. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
I remember him making things. | 0:52:24 | 0:52:25 | |
I remember the smell of sawdust, that would be | 0:52:25 | 0:52:28 | |
the big thing with me. | 0:52:28 | 0:52:29 | |
Whereas if we behaved ourselves we could sit up on the couch | 0:52:29 | 0:52:32 | |
and he'd start making things on the floor, cutting it out, | 0:52:32 | 0:52:35 | |
and I just loved the smell of the sawdust. | 0:52:35 | 0:52:37 | |
He'd make dolls' houses, cribs, chapels, didn't matter what it was. | 0:52:37 | 0:52:43 | |
He was always making something. | 0:52:43 | 0:52:45 | |
He was just an ordinary man, | 0:52:46 | 0:52:49 | |
he liked a wee gamble on the horses. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
Now and again. | 0:52:55 | 0:52:57 | |
One Sunday morning, Charlie left on his regular mission | 0:52:59 | 0:53:02 | |
to drive an elderly neighbour to mass. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:04 | |
He was never heard of again. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:07 | |
As with other victims, almost immediately, | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
rumours began circulating that Charlie was alive and well. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:16 | |
The family blame the IRA - | 0:53:17 | 0:53:19 | |
a cynical ploy to keep them guessing. | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
People saying he was seen sitting in a bar | 0:53:22 | 0:53:25 | |
chatting two women up in Carrick. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:28 | |
Another man said that he'd seen him getting off a bus in Drogheda. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
We checked them all out, there was nothing. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:36 | |
Everybody went looking. | 0:53:38 | 0:53:39 | |
We went round the roads every Sunday... | 0:53:39 | 0:53:43 | |
Nothing. | 0:53:43 | 0:53:44 | |
That went on for 29 years. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:47 | |
The IRA remained silent. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:53 | |
But in 2001 one individual appeared to break ranks | 0:53:53 | 0:53:57 | |
and wrote to Kathleen. | 0:53:57 | 0:53:59 | |
Went up at lunch one day and my mother was in tears | 0:54:01 | 0:54:03 | |
in the kitchen, and she says, "Look at this", | 0:54:03 | 0:54:06 | |
addressed to the Armstrong family, Cullaville Road, | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
it wasn't a stranger. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:11 | |
And, um, it was just scrawled along, | 0:54:12 | 0:54:15 | |
with the letters stating, "Why now, I don't know. | 0:54:15 | 0:54:19 | |
"Charlie is buried three feet down, | 0:54:19 | 0:54:23 | |
"50m or so off the road," | 0:54:23 | 0:54:26 | |
and a map roughly drawn. | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
This first map was inaccurate. | 0:54:29 | 0:54:31 | |
But by this time, a special forensic team had been set up | 0:54:31 | 0:54:35 | |
to find the bodies. | 0:54:35 | 0:54:36 | |
Sent more accurate maps, the team found Charlie in 2010, | 0:54:39 | 0:54:44 | |
buried just across the border. | 0:54:44 | 0:54:46 | |
We weren't sure whether it was him or not, | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
and they took us out to Dundalk and they had all his... | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
wee bits and pieces that he had. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:55 | |
And every one of them I knew, they were... | 0:54:55 | 0:54:58 | |
Even his shoes... | 0:55:01 | 0:55:03 | |
..everything. | 0:55:05 | 0:55:06 | |
Even his socks. | 0:55:08 | 0:55:10 | |
It was wonderful in one way... | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
Another way, it was very sad. | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
I don't know how I got over it. | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
But I was glad. Glad to have him back. | 0:55:27 | 0:55:31 | |
Gerry Evans's body was found a few months later. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
"Whatever you say, say nothing" is a local mantra, | 0:55:42 | 0:55:45 | |
but there is one man who knows this place and isn't afraid to speak up. | 0:55:45 | 0:55:50 | |
Martin McAllister is a former member | 0:55:51 | 0:55:53 | |
of the IRA's South Armagh Brigade, | 0:55:53 | 0:55:55 | |
with the scars and the prison terms to prove it. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
Who carried out these disappearances? | 0:56:00 | 0:56:02 | |
It would have been the local IRA, be in no doubt about that. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:06 | |
Are you sure of that? | 0:56:06 | 0:56:07 | |
Yeah, certainly, and the reason for disappearing him | 0:56:07 | 0:56:10 | |
is a very simple one. | 0:56:10 | 0:56:11 | |
The local community, ordinary decent people in Crossmaglen, | 0:56:11 | 0:56:14 | |
would not have stood for it, | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
would not have put up with it, would not have supported it. | 0:56:16 | 0:56:18 | |
So, no claim, no blame. Everybody was aware what had happened to them. | 0:56:18 | 0:56:23 | |
The fact that they didn't leave him at the side of the road, | 0:56:23 | 0:56:27 | |
so to speak, maybe saved their own grace a little bit | 0:56:27 | 0:56:29 | |
because they could say, "Well, we didn't do this." | 0:56:29 | 0:56:32 | |
Another thing that would have been done very comprehensively | 0:56:32 | 0:56:35 | |
would have been the rumour mill would have been started. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:38 | |
You know, to try and kill the story off. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:40 | |
Such as they've disappeared here or there or they were spotted in | 0:56:40 | 0:56:42 | |
such a town and such a place in England or whatever. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
All absolute nonsense. None of it. | 0:56:45 | 0:56:47 | |
All it did was add more distress to | 0:56:47 | 0:56:49 | |
the families of the people concerned, huge distress to the people. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:53 | |
The IRA has never admitted the murders of Charlie Armstrong | 0:56:57 | 0:57:02 | |
and Gerry Evans, why is that? | 0:57:02 | 0:57:04 | |
Well, there are only two reasons for it. | 0:57:06 | 0:57:09 | |
First of all, the IRA leadership didn't authorise that killing. | 0:57:09 | 0:57:15 | |
The IRA leadership which carried out the investigation would have | 0:57:15 | 0:57:18 | |
uncovered that and said that at the time, so whether the IRA | 0:57:18 | 0:57:23 | |
didn't kill Gerard Evans and Charlie Armstrong, they were killed by | 0:57:23 | 0:57:28 | |
others, which could include other Republicans. | 0:57:28 | 0:57:31 | |
It could even include local Republicans. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
But everyone knows they were killed by the IRA. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
Well, you know, again, I am not going to speculate. | 0:57:37 | 0:57:39 | |
You asked me the question, I'm giving you... | 0:57:39 | 0:57:42 | |
I know, but you know they were killed by the IRA. No, I don't. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:45 | |
Gerry Adams says he can't be sure that the IRA was responsible. | 0:57:48 | 0:57:51 | |
Well, there's lots of things in your life that you can't be certain of. | 0:57:51 | 0:57:54 | |
I can't be certain the sun's going to come up in the morning but I | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
could put money on it, you know. It's as simple as that. | 0:57:57 | 0:57:59 | |
I think Gerry Adams, perhaps... He chooses, maybe, to come up with | 0:57:59 | 0:58:04 | |
that answer as opposed to facing the reality that he himself has | 0:58:04 | 0:58:07 | |
been told lies by them here locally and perhaps he wants to believe it. | 0:58:07 | 0:58:11 | |
A local IRA source told me that Charlie Armstrong | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 | |
was not an informer but often dallied about the town square | 0:58:18 | 0:58:23 | |
and someone decided he might have seen something | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
that he shouldn't have. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:27 | |
He was very close to you all of those years, too, wasn't he? | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
Yes, three miles as the crow flies. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:36 | |
You'd be here in a few minutes. | 0:58:36 | 0:58:37 | |
How was your father killed? | 0:58:42 | 0:58:44 | |
The half of his head was missing, half a skull. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:49 | |
The hands and his feet were tied to the front, which meant that he was | 0:58:49 | 0:58:52 | |
killed and then tied up and dropped off. | 0:58:52 | 0:58:57 | |
The IRA have never admitted killing your dad, have they? | 0:58:57 | 0:59:00 | |
No, he wasn't mentioned at all. | 0:59:00 | 0:59:03 | |
I believe I know the people who done it and I'll always know them. | 0:59:06 | 0:59:11 | |
And even the day of my father's funeral I had to thank | 0:59:11 | 0:59:14 | |
those people. | 0:59:14 | 0:59:16 | |
I felt it was something I had to do. | 0:59:16 | 0:59:18 | |
I had to get up and thank whoever gave us that information. | 0:59:18 | 0:59:21 | |
So would your mum ever come here, come here to see this? | 0:59:24 | 0:59:27 | |
No, no, she would prefer to go to the grave than think | 0:59:27 | 0:59:30 | |
of him lying out here. | 0:59:30 | 0:59:32 | |
Where he should never have been. | 0:59:32 | 0:59:33 | |
He never should have been out here. | 0:59:33 | 0:59:35 | |
Charlie, help me down the steps. | 0:59:49 | 0:59:50 | |
Thank you, Charlie, for helping me down the steps. | 0:59:53 | 0:59:57 | |
Thank you, Charlie. | 1:00:01 | 1:00:02 | |
Charlie, are you listening? | 1:00:05 | 1:00:08 | |
That's right, you are. God bless you and take care. | 1:00:08 | 1:00:12 | |
Recovering the dead has been a protracted | 1:00:31 | 1:00:34 | |
and often disappointing process. | 1:00:34 | 1:00:36 | |
This summer the only active search was for Columba McVeigh. | 1:00:38 | 1:00:42 | |
In 1999, his brother was told that his burial site had been identified. | 1:00:43 | 1:00:48 | |
14 years on, his remains are still to be found. | 1:00:48 | 1:00:51 | |
He's supposed to be buried at Braggan bog in Monaghan. | 1:00:52 | 1:00:56 | |
Earlier searches here have failed, | 1:00:57 | 1:00:59 | |
but this time the specialist search team was cautiously optimistic. | 1:00:59 | 1:01:03 | |
Columba's sister Dympna has one keepsake of him - | 1:01:12 | 1:01:17 | |
a present he gave to their mother. | 1:01:17 | 1:01:18 | |
CHIMES OF GALWAY BAY | 1:01:18 | 1:01:21 | |
Galway Bay. | 1:01:21 | 1:01:22 | |
This was in the glass cabinet. | 1:01:24 | 1:01:26 | |
That kept pride of place. Columba bought her that. | 1:01:26 | 1:01:30 | |
Can't hear that song now. | 1:01:30 | 1:01:32 | |
Can't listen to that song now. | 1:01:32 | 1:01:33 | |
The IRA branded him an informer | 1:01:42 | 1:01:45 | |
but to Dympna he will always be a younger brother. | 1:01:45 | 1:01:48 | |
1975, that's Columba in the armchair with his legs crossed. | 1:01:50 | 1:01:55 | |
He looks in total charge of his world there. | 1:01:55 | 1:01:57 | |
Oh, he was always in total charge of everything. | 1:01:57 | 1:02:00 | |
That was his... His front? Yeah. | 1:02:00 | 1:02:03 | |
I've always said he was dead from day one, | 1:02:04 | 1:02:07 | |
when he was missing. I've always said he was dead. | 1:02:07 | 1:02:10 | |
And why did I say he was dead? Because he needed my mum too much. | 1:02:11 | 1:02:15 | |
He could not have stayed away. | 1:02:15 | 1:02:16 | |
You've heard the thing about "attached to apron strings"? | 1:02:18 | 1:02:21 | |
He was tied to mummy's apron strings. | 1:02:21 | 1:02:24 | |
She was living, wasn't she, to see her son home? | 1:02:25 | 1:02:29 | |
God, yeah. But it wasn't to be. | 1:02:29 | 1:02:31 | |
No. | 1:02:31 | 1:02:32 | |
I never done anything to the IRA. | 1:02:33 | 1:02:36 | |
Neither did me mum, so why are they torturing us? | 1:02:36 | 1:02:39 | |
38 years on and they're still torturing us. And that's what it is. | 1:02:41 | 1:02:46 | |
How would you feel if it was your brother? | 1:02:46 | 1:02:48 | |
Have you been to Braggan? Have you been to the bog? No. No. | 1:02:49 | 1:02:53 | |
Refuse to go. Why? | 1:02:53 | 1:02:54 | |
Cos I've got an image in my head. | 1:02:57 | 1:03:00 | |
An image of...Columba? | 1:03:06 | 1:03:08 | |
Hm-mm. The way he was? | 1:03:08 | 1:03:12 | |
No. | 1:03:12 | 1:03:13 | |
I've got an image in my head of Columba standing there, crying... | 1:03:20 | 1:03:24 | |
..looking into a hole. | 1:03:26 | 1:03:28 | |
Nobody got to say goodbye to him. | 1:03:31 | 1:03:32 | |
Braggan, where Columba is thought to have been shot and buried, | 1:03:41 | 1:03:45 | |
is, like most of the burial sites, isolated, miles from anywhere. | 1:03:45 | 1:03:50 | |
Tied up, guns pressed to your side, | 1:03:53 | 1:03:56 | |
your last minutes alive. | 1:03:56 | 1:03:58 | |
It might make a lovely drive on a summer's day | 1:03:58 | 1:04:01 | |
but not this night. | 1:04:01 | 1:04:03 | |
As quiet as rural Ireland gets, | 1:04:06 | 1:04:08 | |
a terrifyingly lonely place being driven to your certain death. | 1:04:08 | 1:04:13 | |
In the absence of fresh information, other searches have been abandoned. | 1:04:18 | 1:04:22 | |
Like that for Kevin McKee and Seamus Wright, | 1:04:22 | 1:04:26 | |
who were said to have been buried in County Meath less than | 1:04:26 | 1:04:29 | |
40 miles from Dublin city centre. | 1:04:29 | 1:04:33 | |
They were the pair who were | 1:04:33 | 1:04:34 | |
accused of informing on the IRA but who had later helped them | 1:04:34 | 1:04:38 | |
ambush the British Army's undercover Four Square Laundry operation. | 1:04:38 | 1:04:42 | |
I've been trying to piece together the crucial events in the last | 1:04:43 | 1:04:47 | |
months of their lives. | 1:04:47 | 1:04:48 | |
The IRA leader who dealt with them in 1972, Brendan Hughes, | 1:04:50 | 1:04:55 | |
said they should never have been killed. | 1:04:55 | 1:04:57 | |
The following explanation from Hughes himself has never been | 1:04:59 | 1:05:02 | |
broadcast before. | 1:05:02 | 1:05:04 | |
You had to understand that McKee and Wright | 1:05:05 | 1:05:08 | |
believed themselves to be... have immunity. | 1:05:08 | 1:05:12 | |
They were given that. | 1:05:13 | 1:05:14 | |
They were taken away across the border. | 1:05:15 | 1:05:17 | |
I mean, they were held for weeks and weeks and weeks, across the border. | 1:05:17 | 1:05:21 | |
Kevin, remember, was just 17 - a kid. | 1:05:24 | 1:05:28 | |
Most his age have a lifetime to make and atone for mistakes. | 1:05:28 | 1:05:33 | |
Brendan Hughes bitterly regretted what happened next. | 1:05:34 | 1:05:37 | |
Actually, McKee, the people who were holding him... | 1:05:42 | 1:05:47 | |
liked him. Good cook, good craic, | 1:05:47 | 1:05:51 | |
and the order was given for them to be put down, right. | 1:05:51 | 1:05:56 | |
I didn't give the order. I felt betrayed to some extent. | 1:05:56 | 1:06:00 | |
Now this is hearsay on my behalf. | 1:06:01 | 1:06:03 | |
The people who were holding them liked them and couldn't execute them | 1:06:03 | 1:06:08 | |
and people were sent from Belfast to do the actual execution. | 1:06:08 | 1:06:13 | |
There was no purpose in it, it was pure revenge, I think. | 1:06:13 | 1:06:17 | |
Brendan Hughes also explained that Gerry Adams was | 1:06:20 | 1:06:23 | |
involved at this time, planning IRA attacks against the army | 1:06:23 | 1:06:26 | |
intelligence teams that Seamus Wright and Kevin McKee had revealed. | 1:06:26 | 1:06:31 | |
Brendan Hughes doesn't accuse him of having any part in their deaths. | 1:06:31 | 1:06:36 | |
But if he is correct, wouldn't Gerry Adams have known about their role? | 1:06:36 | 1:06:40 | |
Did you know Kevin McKee? | 1:06:41 | 1:06:44 | |
Did I know Kevin McKee? Ballymurphy lad. | 1:06:44 | 1:06:46 | |
I know where he's from. | 1:06:46 | 1:06:48 | |
I know his family well. | 1:06:48 | 1:06:50 | |
I can't say I know him, person to person, but I know his family, | 1:06:50 | 1:06:55 | |
I know his...siblings. | 1:06:55 | 1:07:00 | |
Did you know him as a young lad in Ballymurphy? | 1:07:00 | 1:07:04 | |
Not that I can recall, but I may have, but I can't recall that. | 1:07:04 | 1:07:08 | |
Did you know Seamus Wright? I know the Wright family. | 1:07:08 | 1:07:11 | |
Again, I know his siblings - very strong Republican family, | 1:07:11 | 1:07:18 | |
Did you hear what happened to them back then in 1972, | 1:07:18 | 1:07:21 | |
did you hear that they had been involved in the Four Square Laundry? | 1:07:21 | 1:07:26 | |
Yes, there were rumours about, there always are. | 1:07:26 | 1:07:30 | |
There always are rumours when something happens. | 1:07:30 | 1:07:34 | |
But you were a seriously-placed Republican leader in Belfast | 1:07:34 | 1:07:39 | |
in 1972, you have written about the Four Square Laundry operation | 1:07:39 | 1:07:43 | |
in glowing terms, I assume you must have heard about these two men | 1:07:43 | 1:07:47 | |
and their involvement in it back then, did you? | 1:07:47 | 1:07:49 | |
I am assuming you did, but maybe you didn't... | 1:07:49 | 1:07:52 | |
I learnt a long time ago, if you don't ask you can't tell, | 1:07:52 | 1:07:55 | |
and you are also talking about very turbulent times. | 1:07:55 | 1:07:58 | |
Did you not know that Seamus Wright, | 1:07:58 | 1:08:00 | |
whose relatives were well known to you, | 1:08:00 | 1:08:02 | |
did you not know that Seamus Wright had disappeared? | 1:08:02 | 1:08:04 | |
Nobody knows these things, Darragh... But you knew his family. | 1:08:04 | 1:08:08 | |
Hold on a second, what sort of world do you live in? | 1:08:08 | 1:08:11 | |
Kevin McKee's mum was looking for him, the entire | 1:08:11 | 1:08:14 | |
family searching for him. | 1:08:14 | 1:08:16 | |
Please bear with me. Do you not live in the real world? | 1:08:16 | 1:08:19 | |
People go off, people disappear, | 1:08:19 | 1:08:22 | |
people bring back reports of having seen such and such a person. | 1:08:22 | 1:08:26 | |
But what about Jean McConville, the mother of ten | 1:08:29 | 1:08:32 | |
that disappeared in 1972? | 1:08:32 | 1:08:34 | |
After she was found in 2003, | 1:08:42 | 1:08:44 | |
her family persuaded the police ombudsman to inquire into | 1:08:44 | 1:08:48 | |
why there had been no proper police investigation in the first place. | 1:08:48 | 1:08:53 | |
The reason they didn't start an investigation was that | 1:08:57 | 1:09:00 | |
that area was so dangerous that they only investigated | 1:09:00 | 1:09:03 | |
what they called serious crimes and they clearly didn't regard... | 1:09:03 | 1:09:07 | |
..poor Jean McConville's abduction as a serious crime. | 1:09:09 | 1:09:11 | |
As part of her inquiry, Nuala Oloan wanted to | 1:09:15 | 1:09:19 | |
establish the truth about claims that Jean McConville | 1:09:19 | 1:09:22 | |
was an informant. | 1:09:22 | 1:09:23 | |
There were two main allegations - that she had revealed | 1:09:25 | 1:09:28 | |
the whereabouts of a gun or that she had concealed Army transmitters. | 1:09:28 | 1:09:33 | |
Both were false, according to Nuala Oloan. | 1:09:35 | 1:09:37 | |
Why was she disappeared? | 1:09:40 | 1:09:41 | |
I think she was the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time. | 1:09:41 | 1:09:45 | |
She was an East Belfast Protestant, they had moved across | 1:09:45 | 1:09:49 | |
to West Belfast, | 1:09:49 | 1:09:51 | |
and there were suspicions, the laundry vans incident | 1:09:51 | 1:09:56 | |
had occurred where the British Army were collecting information, | 1:09:56 | 1:10:01 | |
and there were suspicions about informants and I think that because | 1:10:01 | 1:10:05 | |
she was not one of them... | 1:10:05 | 1:10:08 | |
they just decided to make an example of her. | 1:10:08 | 1:10:11 | |
She was not an informant. | 1:10:11 | 1:10:12 | |
Murder is sometimes a solitary act. | 1:10:19 | 1:10:23 | |
Not Jean McConville's. | 1:10:23 | 1:10:25 | |
It's thought that up to 20 people | 1:10:25 | 1:10:27 | |
may have been involved in her killing. | 1:10:27 | 1:10:29 | |
A source who believes their life would be at risk | 1:10:31 | 1:10:34 | |
if identified told me that Jean was held | 1:10:34 | 1:10:37 | |
and interrogated close to her home, | 1:10:37 | 1:10:39 | |
never more than three quarters of a miles away. | 1:10:39 | 1:10:42 | |
She was held for up to six days in Belfast - not for interrogation | 1:10:43 | 1:10:48 | |
but to finalise the logistics of disappearing her. | 1:10:48 | 1:10:52 | |
A team to drive her across the border, a team to shoot her, | 1:10:52 | 1:10:56 | |
a team to dig her grave. | 1:10:56 | 1:10:58 | |
For certain, the IRA believed she was an informant | 1:10:59 | 1:11:03 | |
but this doesn't explain why she was disappeared. | 1:11:03 | 1:11:06 | |
Billy McKee, the former IRA Belfast commander, wasn't in charge then, | 1:11:09 | 1:11:14 | |
but he knows what he would have done. | 1:11:14 | 1:11:16 | |
Would you have buried Jean McConville? No. | 1:11:16 | 1:11:19 | |
I'm telling you I wouldn't have buried them. | 1:11:19 | 1:11:22 | |
I would have executed her all right, no problem, | 1:11:22 | 1:11:25 | |
but I would not have buried her. | 1:11:25 | 1:11:27 | |
Sinn Fein have told me that the policy | 1:11:27 | 1:11:29 | |
of disappearing people was a policy | 1:11:29 | 1:11:32 | |
inherited from the old men of the IRA, | 1:11:32 | 1:11:35 | |
the men from the 1940s and the 1950s campaign. Is that true? | 1:11:35 | 1:11:38 | |
That's a goddamn lie. | 1:11:38 | 1:11:40 | |
In my time, I never knew anybody to be buried. | 1:11:41 | 1:11:46 | |
Executed, yes, but not to be buried. | 1:11:46 | 1:11:49 | |
They were never disappeared. | 1:11:49 | 1:11:51 | |
Not in the '40s, not in the '50s. | 1:11:53 | 1:11:56 | |
But why are they telling it? | 1:11:59 | 1:12:00 | |
They would near tell you they weren't involved | 1:12:03 | 1:12:05 | |
in the campaign at any time. | 1:12:05 | 1:12:06 | |
That's confounded lies, what they're saying. | 1:12:08 | 1:12:11 | |
Alone of the disappeared, Jean McConville's killing | 1:12:15 | 1:12:19 | |
is a live police investigation. | 1:12:19 | 1:12:21 | |
This is in large part because she was found by a member of the public, | 1:12:21 | 1:12:25 | |
so the special deal with the IRA doesn't apply. | 1:12:25 | 1:12:29 | |
So who ordered her death and disappearance? | 1:12:30 | 1:12:33 | |
Republican sources who don't want to be identified | 1:12:34 | 1:12:38 | |
have told me that a special Belfast IRA intelligence team was in charge. | 1:12:38 | 1:12:43 | |
This unit has been called The Unknowns. | 1:12:43 | 1:12:46 | |
One of its members was Dolours Price. | 1:12:47 | 1:12:50 | |
Once very close to Gerry Adams, she became bitterly critical of him. | 1:12:50 | 1:12:54 | |
She struggled with illness but, before her death earlier this year, | 1:12:54 | 1:12:59 | |
she did a number of interviews in which she admitted driving | 1:12:59 | 1:13:03 | |
Jean McConville across the border. | 1:13:03 | 1:13:05 | |
She also admitted helping to disappear three others in 1972. | 1:13:05 | 1:13:10 | |
Crucially, she said she was acting under the orders of Gerry Adams. | 1:13:11 | 1:13:16 | |
Brendan Hughes - once said to have loved Gerry Adams as a brother - | 1:13:19 | 1:13:23 | |
goes even further. He admitted being involved in the IRA's | 1:13:23 | 1:13:27 | |
investigation of Jean McConville, but says the responsibility | 1:13:27 | 1:13:31 | |
for her death lies with Gerry Adams. | 1:13:31 | 1:13:33 | |
BRENDAN HUGHES: | 1:13:37 | 1:13:43 | |
More than 40 years after her death, the circumstances | 1:14:15 | 1:14:19 | |
of Jean McConville's killing still follow Gerry Adams... | 1:14:19 | 1:14:22 | |
OVERLAPPING | 1:14:22 | 1:14:23 | |
..though he insists he had no knowledge of her then. | 1:14:24 | 1:14:27 | |
I would love to hear you speak the truth about some elements | 1:14:27 | 1:14:31 | |
of your past, Deputy Adams. | 1:14:31 | 1:14:33 | |
Cut out the waffle and have some straight talk. | 1:14:33 | 1:14:36 | |
Perhaps you might someday tell the truth about | 1:14:36 | 1:14:39 | |
the tragedy and about the remorse | 1:14:39 | 1:14:42 | |
and the compassion that should have been shown to Jean McConville. | 1:14:42 | 1:14:45 | |
Maybe you might do that, Deputy Adams. You might do that sometime. | 1:14:45 | 1:14:49 | |
OVERLAPPING | 1:14:49 | 1:14:51 | |
Brendan Hughes has alleged that there was only one man | 1:14:52 | 1:14:56 | |
who gave the order for "that woman", meaning Jean McConville, | 1:14:56 | 1:14:59 | |
to be executed. That man is now the head of Sinn Fein. | 1:14:59 | 1:15:04 | |
That's what Brendan Hughes has said. | 1:15:04 | 1:15:07 | |
Did you give the order for the execution of Jean McConville | 1:15:07 | 1:15:10 | |
as he claims? | 1:15:10 | 1:15:11 | |
No, I had no act or part to play in either the abduction, the killing | 1:15:11 | 1:15:17 | |
or the burial of Jean McConville | 1:15:17 | 1:15:20 | |
or indeed any of these other individuals | 1:15:20 | 1:15:22 | |
and Brendan is telling lies, | 1:15:22 | 1:15:25 | |
and himself and Dolours Price, | 1:15:25 | 1:15:26 | |
opponents of the Sinn Fein leadership, | 1:15:26 | 1:15:30 | |
opponents of our strategy, | 1:15:30 | 1:15:34 | |
from their point of view and obviously I profoundly disagree, | 1:15:34 | 1:15:37 | |
they see us as having sold out, they see us as being traitors | 1:15:37 | 1:15:42 | |
and they also have their own demons to deal with, | 1:15:42 | 1:15:47 | |
so all of this and these allegations have to be set in that context. | 1:15:47 | 1:15:50 | |
Brendan Hughes's recordings were made as part | 1:15:59 | 1:16:02 | |
of an American history project based at Boston College. | 1:16:02 | 1:16:05 | |
I wanted to get insight into the thinking of Brendan Hughes, | 1:16:14 | 1:16:17 | |
his motivation for accusing his once close friend of the killing | 1:16:17 | 1:16:22 | |
and disappearance of Jean McConville. | 1:16:22 | 1:16:24 | |
I think what motivated Brendan Hughes | 1:16:42 | 1:16:45 | |
in coming forward and talking about this sort of thing | 1:16:45 | 1:16:48 | |
was his anger at Gerry Adams's denial of his own past and their shared past | 1:16:48 | 1:16:53 | |
as senior figures in the IRA, | 1:16:53 | 1:16:55 | |
and Brendan Hughes, I think, was very strongly influenced by the fact | 1:16:55 | 1:17:01 | |
that there was Gerry Adams denying | 1:17:01 | 1:17:04 | |
that he had given orders to Brendan Hughes | 1:17:04 | 1:17:07 | |
to do certain things, | 1:17:07 | 1:17:09 | |
when both Brendan Hughes and Gerry Adams knew that this has happened. | 1:17:09 | 1:17:13 | |
And I think that denial angered him | 1:17:13 | 1:17:16 | |
and I think angered other people | 1:17:16 | 1:17:19 | |
and, in his case, persuaded him to actually take a big step | 1:17:19 | 1:17:22 | |
and give this interview to Boston College. | 1:17:22 | 1:17:26 | |
Dolours Price and Brendan Hughes are both dead. | 1:17:28 | 1:17:31 | |
In Ireland I established contact | 1:17:33 | 1:17:35 | |
with another former senior IRA figure | 1:17:35 | 1:17:38 | |
whose identity I have agreed to keep secret. | 1:17:38 | 1:17:41 | |
It was stated to me that Dolours Price and Brendan Hughes | 1:17:41 | 1:17:44 | |
were telling the truth. | 1:17:44 | 1:17:46 | |
It's not just people like Brendan Hughes and Dolours Price | 1:17:47 | 1:17:52 | |
that make these allegations about you and Jean McConville. | 1:17:52 | 1:17:56 | |
I have learnt from a top Republican source | 1:17:56 | 1:18:00 | |
that you were in fact the Belfast Brigade commander | 1:18:00 | 1:18:06 | |
when Jean McConville was taken, murdered and executed | 1:18:06 | 1:18:10 | |
and that you in fact were ultimately responsible. | 1:18:10 | 1:18:13 | |
You, as Belfast commander, | 1:18:13 | 1:18:16 | |
as the OC in Belfast of the IRA, | 1:18:16 | 1:18:18 | |
were ultimately responsible for her fate, | 1:18:18 | 1:18:21 | |
because the unit, the intelligence unit, | 1:18:21 | 1:18:23 | |
some people call it The Unknowns, | 1:18:23 | 1:18:25 | |
that took her away, that dealt with her, | 1:18:25 | 1:18:28 | |
answered to one person and that person was you. | 1:18:28 | 1:18:31 | |
Well, that's just a recycling of the same story, that's not true, Darragh. | 1:18:31 | 1:18:35 | |
But I've been told... Come here, you can repeat it ad nauseam, | 1:18:35 | 1:18:39 | |
I'm telling you it's not true. | 1:18:39 | 1:18:41 | |
Do you regret what happened to her? My focus... | 1:18:41 | 1:18:44 | |
Do you regret it from a personal perspective? | 1:18:44 | 1:18:46 | |
Bear with me. My focus is in trying to do what I can | 1:18:46 | 1:18:49 | |
as an individual to bring those remaining bodies to the families | 1:18:49 | 1:18:57 | |
who grieve them and who want a burial place to go to. | 1:18:57 | 1:19:00 | |
Of course I regret. Of course. | 1:19:00 | 1:19:03 | |
One wouldn't be a thinking, living human being | 1:19:03 | 1:19:06 | |
if one didn't have regret. | 1:19:06 | 1:19:08 | |
Do you bear any responsibility for what happened to these people? | 1:19:08 | 1:19:11 | |
All of us bear a responsibility, | 1:19:11 | 1:19:13 | |
those of us who are in leadership | 1:19:13 | 1:19:15 | |
and I have never shirked that. | 1:19:15 | 1:19:17 | |
Gerry Adams and some in the IRA have attempted to atone | 1:19:18 | 1:19:23 | |
for the wrong done to the families of the disappeared. | 1:19:23 | 1:19:26 | |
But certain wrongs can never be undone or made right. | 1:19:26 | 1:19:31 | |
MICKEY McCONVILLE: I can't remember a time | 1:19:37 | 1:19:40 | |
when there wasn't pigeons around the family. | 1:19:40 | 1:19:42 | |
It puts me back to my childhood memories what were happy, | 1:19:44 | 1:19:47 | |
when we were all together. | 1:19:47 | 1:19:49 | |
I will always hope to get the truth. | 1:19:51 | 1:19:54 | |
It's one of things that I am fighting for, is to get the truth, | 1:19:54 | 1:19:57 | |
why they killed my mother. | 1:19:57 | 1:19:58 | |
It was wrong. | 1:19:58 | 1:20:00 | |
They made us suffer all them years not knowing where she was. | 1:20:00 | 1:20:04 | |
I suppose they'll have to answer for it someday. | 1:20:08 | 1:20:10 | |
When I send them away, | 1:20:26 | 1:20:28 | |
they always return home, they always come back to me. | 1:20:28 | 1:20:31 | |
The latest dig for Columba McVeigh has again ended in failure. | 1:20:42 | 1:20:47 | |
Four of the six IRA victims not found | 1:20:52 | 1:20:55 | |
are thought to be buried in bogs | 1:20:55 | 1:20:57 | |
in County Meath in the heart of Ireland, | 1:20:57 | 1:21:00 | |
like here at Orristown. | 1:21:00 | 1:21:02 | |
All the families can do for those still missing | 1:21:07 | 1:21:10 | |
is hope for new and better information. | 1:21:10 | 1:21:13 | |
Just look at the size of it. It's hundreds of acres. | 1:21:27 | 1:21:31 | |
How on earth are you going to find somebody? | 1:21:31 | 1:21:34 | |
And all you're looking of course now is for some bone, dyed turf brown. | 1:21:36 | 1:21:42 | |
Maybe a belt buckle or a shoe. | 1:21:42 | 1:21:46 | |
But in a place this size you could be digging from now until doomsday | 1:21:47 | 1:21:52 | |
and never find somebody. | 1:21:52 | 1:21:54 | |
It's clear that certain people are still holding on to secrets, | 1:22:08 | 1:22:13 | |
but secrets kept die, | 1:22:13 | 1:22:15 | |
secrets told can heal. | 1:22:15 | 1:22:17 | |
One day, maybe the bogs of Ireland will give up their dead, | 1:22:21 | 1:22:26 | |
but before then certainly, there will be time | 1:22:26 | 1:22:29 | |
to contemplate the truths of our historic conflict. | 1:22:29 | 1:22:34 | |
SEAMUS HEANEY: The plait of my hair | 1:22:36 | 1:22:38 | |
a slimy birth-cord of bog, had been cut | 1:22:38 | 1:22:42 | |
and I arose from the dark, | 1:22:42 | 1:22:44 | |
hacked bone, skull-ware, | 1:22:44 | 1:22:47 | |
frayed stitches, tufts, | 1:22:47 | 1:22:50 | |
small gleams on the bank. | 1:22:50 | 1:22:52 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 1:24:09 | 1:24:12 |