The Men Who Won't Stop Marching Wonderland

This programme contains some strong language.

This is Belfast's Protestant Shankill Road.

Behind these walls lives a community which has suffered and caused

as much violence as any in Northern Ireland.

But their men are still determined to parade their loyalty to the Queen and Crown

no matter what the consequences.

ANGRY WHISTLE-BLOWING

I am being shown around the Shankill Estate by 11-year-old Jordan McKeag,

son of one of the most infamous loyalist families in the area.

This is my Uncle Stevie.

He died in, I think it was 2000 or something.

He's my daddy's brother.

Why is he famous, your uncle, Jordan?

Cos I think he was a military commander.

That's what it says up there.

What does a military commander mean?

I don't know.

Was he in the paramilitaries?

I think so. I think that's why everybody knows him.

I don't know how he died, either.

I've been asking my daddy and he doesn't know.

He keeps on saying he doesn't know, but he really does.

This is the prison my daddy was in. They call it the H-Block.

Does it look like a nice place?

No, I think it's scary.

It looks scary, anyway.

Shankill!

DRUM ROLL

Jackie, Jordan's dad, founded his band with fellow inmates after leaving The Maze,

Belfast's famous high-security prison for paramilitaries.

Although Jordan has been in his daddy's band since he was four,

he has so far only been allowed to carry the band pole.

-On 92 to 95 FM...

-1341 medium wave.

This is BBC Radio Ulster.

Daddy!

It's Jordan's job to make sure that his daddy gets to his weekly band practice on time.

Daddy!

Jackie!

Jackie, it's near seven.

It's five to.

-Where's he supposed to be?

-Band practice.

Try again.

Daddy!

Daddy, are you getting up?

For fuck's sake!

-What do you think of Jordan's drumming?

-He's good. Brilliant.

-If he had a drum, would you let him play in the band?

-Aye, definitely.

Aye. Definitely would.

So he's good enough?

He's better than good enough, so he is.

-Can't you persuade Jackie to let him play in the band?

-I've tried to.

-Have you?

-Aye, it's not happening.

-No chance, is there, kid?

-Nope.

CALLS INSTRUCTIONS

THEY PLAY "The Sash My Father Wore"

No, no!

No! No.

Make your hands move bigger!

When are we going to get Jordan a drum?

I don't know.

Cos the band won't pay for it. They won't let me put him in.

-Everybody says you won't let him have one.

-No, he's f...

Do you know what your daddy was in prison for?

Nope.

Have you ever asked him?

Yes, but he doesn't tell me.

Why does he not tell you, pet?

I don't know. It's probably something bad.

I want my daddy to be really proud of me.

What would make him proud of you, Jordan?

Playing a drum.

How much does it mean to you when he's proud of you, Jordan?

The world.

MUSIC PLAYS ON CAR CD

# ..a table for four

# But there's only conversation for three

# I liked the way she let me get the door

# And I wonder what she thinks of me. #

Paul Schole runs another marching band,

one of 13 that exists within the two-mile length of the Shankill Road.

# She's asked me to dance

# Now her hand's in mine... #

-Do you think this wall will ever come down, Paul?

-Never!

They've made it bigger. Look at the size of it. It's bigger.

How do you feel about tourists coming and looking at them?

I only hope that when the tourists do come and look, they're getting a proper insight.

Both sides of every story needs to be heard.

Do you not feel the Loyalist side is heard?

Very little.

I'm loyal to the Queen and the Crown.

Our bands are loyal to the Queen and the Crown.

We're British, at the end of the day.

Probably more British than people that actually live in Britain itself.

We're probably more loyal to the Crown than they are.

And that's a fact.

England doesn't care about us.

England would prefer to just give us away.

Save them all the hassle, all the money it would save them. They don't care.

Paul's band is the youngest band on the Shankill.

Most of its members are teenagers and young kids.

Lads, coming down them steps, do not swing your arms.

Swing your arm up to the steps.

As the marching season draws to an end,

the band starts practising for the area's next indoor competition,

the Battle of the Shankill.

-What's wrong?

-There's a big crack in it.

Tell your ma she's to give you 180 quid next week for a new pair!

Stand up!

PLAY "GOD SAVE THE QUEEN"

The reason why I joined a flute band as a child

was probably because it was like an adventure type of thing, being in a band.

Some kids are into football and stuff and I liked the colours and music of the band.

At that age, you don't really know what it's about, as such.

Paul told me what he would say if a Catholic asked to join his band.

You can only be in the band if you are loyal to the Queen and loyal to the Crown.

So if he can undertake that, then yeah.

If he wants to become a Loyalist, a full Loyalist, yeah.

Why not?

It means changing his religion.

So it's hypothetical. It just wouldn't happen.

So a Catholic man or boy wanting to come and join my band,

and me going, "Yeah, but you have to become a Protestant." If he does that, certainly.

All Protestants welcome!

Please apply within!

It's the last big parade of the year in the Shankill Road.

A day when over 60 bands are cheered on through the streets.

They walk in memory of Brian Robinson

a Loyalist gunman killed by a British soldier in 1989

as he returned home from having shot a Catholic man dead.

But recently, there has been an unexpected challenge to the respect the paramilitaries once held.

The letters FAP have been sprayed all over the walls on the Shankill estate

by gangs of kids, including Jordan.

-There's graffiti going up on the estate.

-Where?

-FOP, or something.

-FAP.

-What does that mean?

Fuck all paramilitaries.

-What does that mean?

-Fuck all paramilitaries.

All paramilitaries are like UDA and UFF.

And UVF.

-And who wrote the graffiti?

-Everyone.

Everyone writes it.

Your daddy said you signed your name at the bottom of it and he was cross. Is that right?

Wasn't my fault. Why?

-Did he tell you off?

-No.

I don't think he knows.

The half of them don't understand what it is.

The way the kids put it, it's "fuck all paramilitaries".

Half the kids don't even know what it means or what it stands for

or what the paramilitary even speak for.

What did the paramilitary stand for?

We were looking after our own communities.

That's what they were formed for, as vigilantes.

To stop us from being attacked by the other side.

But this was going on before the kids were even born so half of them don't know what they were doing.

I mean, if it wasn't for the paramilitaries,

half the places were going daft.

Come on! Get up!

Who was Brian Robinson?

Brian Robinson was a defender of the Protestant people.

Brian Robinson was a true son of Ulster.

Brian Robinson was a Loyalist to the day he died.

And that's why I certainly would celebrate the life of Brian.

Was he a paramilitary, then?

-If you mean was he...

-Was he in the paramilitary?

-Aye, that's common knowledge, yes.

-He did kill people?

He shot a man, yeah.

He shot a man the day he was shot, yeah.

Do you think by keeping the memory of some of these guys alive,

is that a bad thing?

It can only be a good thing.

But doesn't it stir up sectarianism?

The way I look at it, these men didn't die in vain.

They should never be forgotten.

Never be forgotten.

But shouldn't they be remembered but you need to move on?

You can move on. There's ways and means of moving on.

But you should never forget.

So would people on the other side of the community see a parade in memory of him

as offensive, do you think, Paul?

They have their parades in memory of their fallen.

As I always say,

everyone is entitled to remember their war dead as such. It was a war we were in.

We believe it's our British right to walk. It's part of our heritage and part of our culture.

We walk the Queen's highway. This is Britain we're walking in.

I'm never going to give that up for nobody.

I never want to give up my culture and my traditions.

As I watched the men march in their uniforms,

walking to honour this man they see as a hero in their community,

I wonder when and how we will ever reconcile our bloody past.

Amongst these men, I notice 28-year-old Lee Hammond,

the bass drummer with the West Belfast volunteers.

Lee has lived all his life in the Shankill Road.

-My wife...

-How old are you?

-I'll be 29 on Friday. 23 August.

1981 I was born.

And you've got how many kids?

Number eight on the way.

Jessica. That's one of my wee girls.

Tori's the other wee girl.

And then Jake.

Which you can't really make out.

I think the fella was a bit drunk when he done that one!

Are you going to show us any more?

I've a big one on my back, but that's still work in progress.

What are you going to do with that one?

At the top of it, I'm getting "Daddy" done.

As if over the kids' names.

As if I'm the daddy, the angel, looking over all the kids.

There's the band badge.

-When did you get that one done?

-When the band first formed.

That's how dedicated and how into it I was.

To live till I was 18. That was my goal in life.

And then when I had my first child, it was to live till he was 18.

-Why did you think you'd only live till then?

-Because of the Troubles and because of where I lived.

It was an interface area.

So there were constant riots every weekend.

So there was. Just for something to do.

Did you think you'd get shot?

Oh, aye. Everybody did.

Do you think you had a childhood, Lee?

No, not really.

That's why now, when I'm in the band,

I just feel like a big child,

so I do, when I'm out with the band.

That's why I prance about and dance and do all that there stuff,

so I do.

Every band has its own distinctive uniform.

These uniforms can cost in the region of £500 each.

It's like a kid in the corner shop in here! You see all the colours and you say, "I want that colour!"

That's a lovely blue, like.

Three years ago, we wanted the black and silver.

-That was three years ago.

-Aye.

-Everybody wanted black. I wanted black and silver.

And Wesley's took black and gold.

So, Brian, are you like the Versace of the bands here?

-Yes.

-He's the Godfather!

-I'm the designer.

-He's the Godfather!

"You dare to disrespect my uniform?"

Listen, I'll see you mid-December.

-That'll do.

-Right?

-As soon as you get the money down, I'll sort you out!

-I know, mate. It's a deposit, now. It'll be a deposit. It'll be a few grand.

-Aye.

How much does it cost to put a band on the road?

Your drums are £550.

You need to be buying ten of them.

That's 5,500 for a set of drums.

The uniforms alone will cost over 20 grand.

So where do you get that money in a community that's struggling?

Fundraising. Just feet on the street.

Paul's right-hand man is one of the Shankill's best drummers,

Johnny Airdrie.

Johnny, is he known as a bit of an Alan Sugar on the Shankill Road?

-He likes to think he is!

-"Likes to think he is!"

Is he an entrepreneur?

No, not at all. Definitely not. I'm skint.

Not at all.

I'm now currently unemployed.

I wasn't a while back, but now I am.

I was a prosperous... I had a prosperous business

which is no longer in existence.

So you went bust?

-Yes.

-When?

Three months ago. Four months ago, thereabouts.

Terrible. But I'm going to get back on my feet, hopefully.

Paul drives me around the streets of the Shankill

to show me where his young band members spend their evenings.

There's a whole street derelict.

That's where a young fella hung himself not long back.

A suicide?

Down here.

Yeah.

You would be concerned in case it would be one of your young lads.

When I say young lads, I mean the lads out of the band.

It would be concerning... I mean, what are they going to do?

Hopefully, hopefully, they'll get a bit older and get a job.

That was me.

I used to do that.

Hang about.

-Were you a good boy when you were a kid?

-No.

-Were you not?

-No.

I was not indeed, no.

I'm sure I had my parents' head melded.

I wasn't a good lad at all.

Your boys?

What's happening, boys?

-What's happening?

-Nothing.

-Taking no harm now?

-No drugs?

-Aye.

Aye, I know.

No drink?

We've no money.

If it wasn't for the band at the weekend,

what would you be doing? Doing what?

-Drinking.

-Acting the idiot?

-Aye. Going mad.

So what?

-All right, boys.

-See you later.

See you later, boys.

There they go, into the wilderness.

It's Beirut, I'm telling you.

# Where Lagan stream sings lullaby

# There blows a lily fair

# The twilight gleam

# Is in her eye... #

It's two weeks after the Brian Robinson parade

and I hear that Jordan's been involved in a discovery

that has taken the whole of the Shankill by surprise.

All I heard was Jordan saying, "Daddy, Daddy, quick!"

I was like, "Is something wrong?"

All I heard was Jordan saying, "There's somebody down the Muck Hills hanging."

This wee boy had been missing for three weeks.

And the first thing came into my head, I thought, "Oh, my God, that's that wee boy."

Did you have bad dreams that night, Jordan?

No, it's only when I walked in my room that night,

to see my blazer hanging on my bed.

It was scary.

He had to sleep with the light on. He says where he hangs his uniform up

it's like a cabin bed and he hangs it on the actual bed itself.

And when he walked in, he says he nearly died.

It brought him a flashback.

That's what the wee lad was wearing, a black jacket.

So for the first couple of nights, he had to sleep with the light on.

Just to keep himself, I suppose, from being scared from it.

Is there a lot of suicides on this estate?

There's been a few suicides.

Your daddy found someone hanging one night, so he did.

Have you found people trying to hang themselves before on this estate?

I think that's been the third I've found.

A fella down the street, he hung himself, too.

I found him. He was hanging from the loft.

-Why are they taking their own lives, Jackie?

-You don't know what's on their minds.

Just anything to just stop it right away.

And they won't go... They won't go and tell anybody.

They just try and deal with it themselves.

So looking at the deaths in these papers is a common thing, is it?

It's every day. You know every day you open the paper

you're going to know somebody.

Do you ever feel that people need some sort of counselling, trauma thing, to get over things?

There are places on the Shankill for that.

But people won't go and tell their personal views.

They want to keep it to themselves.

Have you ever had any help for horrible things you've seen?

No. I just get on with it. If it happens, it happens.

Nothing you can do. Just get on with it.

There's the wee boy's flowers where he hung himself.

-That's where the wee boy hung himself?

-Yeah.

-Where?

-Up in those bushes.

But there's his flowers.

There's his photo.

I was coming home from football.

Then when my mates told me there was a dead body down the Muck Hills,

and I said, "Stop messing about. It's only a wee dummy!"

Then I went down and looked and it was a real person.

Control it, Travis!

Control it!

-What's wrong?

-He kicked my ball away.

-Jordan, where's the ball?

-Up there.

DIALOGUE UNCLEAR

Get it!

I need to get up!

You owe me a tenner, dick-head!

-He'll get it.

-No, he won't!

Fuck off, Darnell.

No, fuck off, Darnell! Go away.

ROUSING MARCHING TUNE

One week before the Battle of the Bands.

There's been a setback for Paul.

His right-hand man has defected to a rival band.

A few points to bring up for those who didn't know.

Johnny and Brian's left us.

All right?

They've went, as far as we believe,

to the ranks of West Belfast Volunteers' Flute Band.

At the end of the day, we're bigger and better and stronger now than we were before.

Right? So don't be getting downbeat about it.

If you see Johnny, be the same as you always were.

I don't want these lads thinking he was the be all and end all. This band is bigger than one person.

Johnny has joined Lee's band, the West Belfast Volunteers.

It's run by Marcus.

-He came to a better band.

-He came to a better band?

Is that how you feel, Johnny? You're in a better band now?

No comment!

The transfer went open and we got him. 50p!

Can't beat that!

-The transfer went open? Does that happen in the band scene?

-It does!

Are you pleased?

We're getting there. Getting there.

The due date for Lee's eighth child is only weeks away.

His wife Lisa has suddenly been told

there may be a problem with the pregnancy.

"The cystic space, noticed swelling measuring."

How are you left feeling after that, Lisa?

Petrified.

I had to fight the tears back.

I thought if I start crying I'll never walk out of that room,

everybody would be looking at me.

So I didn't.

Do you have a fear, because you lost a baby before, didn't you?

Mm.

How pregnant were you when you lost that baby?

Four months.

-Do you think you always have a fear that there's something wrong?

-Mmm.

Cos I had to go in and deliver the baby myself.

So I did.

How did Lee take that?

He never spoke.

To this day, he doesn't speak about it either.

Do you think he finds things that are emotionally upsetting really hard to deal with?

He bottles it all up, so he does.

I don't know why, because it would drive me loopy.

-What are you waiting for now?

-Another scan.

To make sure everything's OK.

I'll be counting the weeks down till it happens.

-So what is the cystic space? Do you know?

-I haven't a clue.

Not a clue!

And how's Lee dealing with this news?

Same again. Doesn't speak about it.

Do you think he's frightened and doesn't want to let on?

Yep.

The past 24 hours have been a bit tough.

I'd say more than a bit, so I would!

But there's nothing you can really do.

Do you think you're trying to put a brave face on the whole thing

-to keep her...

-I have to.

I think once she sees me going down in the dumps,

she'll follow me.

So she will.

Do you never have moments where you have to walk away

and go, "God, this is really shit."

All the time!

But I just don't let people see that.

I don't want people to see that side of me.

What side?

The sort of down and depressed side.

That's not for people to see.

Cos when people see me, they always see me smiling, happy, cheerful, whatever.

And for them to see me maybe down in the dumps or whatever,

I don't like it.

Nice? Aye, nice!

DOG BARKS

Max, shut up! Max!

It's Halloween at Jordan's house.

I've noticed a change in the way Jackie is with Jordan.

-Do you remember doing this when you were a kid?

-I never done it.

-Did you not?

-No.

What would you do when you were a kid, Jackie?

I was wrecking the place.

-Did you do pumpkins when you were a wee girl?

-No, I did not, no.

I'm not a... I don't...

Jackie and all call me bore bag.

Cos I don't like Christmas, don't like any holiday times.

-Doesn't like her fucking self.

-I don't like myself, Jackie says!

Then sometimes I'll throw a wobbler.

-When you throw a wobbler, what do you do?

-I used to wreck the place.

-Didn't I, Jordan?

-Yep.

And I have to listen to it!

-Don't put your finger on the blade!

-I'm not.

-You did.

Get back. You might get cut.

-Did you cut yourself yet?

-Fuck off.

-Watch your finger.

-Aye.

-You watch.

-Watch!

Daddy's never been in a church in his life.

-Sorry, Jordan, say that again.

-What the fuck's church got to do with this?

-Daddy's never been in a church.

-Why's that suddenly come into your mind, Jordan?

I don't know.

He's worried about saving your soul, Jackie!

Bit too fucking late for that!

Oh. It's not as good as the last one.

Then do it yourself, then!

Where are we going, Jordan? Tell us where we're going.

The shop, to get my Halloween costume.

-What's it like?

-All right.

Bye!

Stop it!

That isn't crazy string! Look at it!

Get away with that stuff!

What does KAT mean?

"Kill all Taigs".

What does Taig mean?

Catholics.

Why do people write that?

I don't know.

Bad name.

But they write KAH.

Kill all Huns.

Kill all Huns.

-It's Hons.

-It isn't. It's Hun.

-We're Hons.

-It's Hun!

Who are Huns?

Protestants.

# My guy, my guy! #

In the mugs.

Do you think, Jackie, that Jordan and his generation understand what The Troubles was all about?

No. They haven't a clue.

Can I do one?

What do you think they need to know about it all, Jackie?

What the Cause was for.

-Burn, baby, burn.

-There, Travis.

It was the Cause for our country.

It's a different era now.

Time to make changes. Time to move forward.

Do you think he's a better age to cope with these questions now?

He has a bit of sense. He knows what he's asking me.

He knows what he's been told.

But you can't tell him any of the bad bits.

I wouldn't want him to see what I've seen and what I went through.

Hopefully he won't go down that road.

Years ago, you were maybe getting a phone call,

somebody this has been shot dead, that's been shot dead.

It was friends and family you were losing.

But now you're not hearing it.

It's just the way of living.

Do you think, for all the awful things you've seen and lived through,

how do you deal with that? Do you have flashbacks, bad memories?

You just have to get on with it. I'm not the only one. Thousands went through worse than I did.

You just have to get on with it. There's nothing else you can do.

Trick or treat?

FIREWORKS WHIZZ OVERHEAD

# Halloween's coming and the goose is getting fat

# Please put a penny in the old man's hat. #

Lift it up yourself.

Are you ready?

Ready?

That's it!

That's it. Leave it. It's going up quick.

It's the day of Lisa's scan in a specialist baby unit.

Fairly normal.

Round to the front.

The shape of the head looks good.

Reassuring features of the face there and the lips

and the nose, OK.

He's a star even before he's born!

-Do you think he's a drummer, Lee?

-He's a bass drummer.

He's got the arms for it!

-It's a "he", is it?

-Yes, it's a he!

Everything else looks really quite reassuring.

OK?

-That's good news, isn't it?

-Yep.

-Thank you.

-Right.

-How do you feel, Lisa?

-Relieved!

She was told not to worry about anything.

So a good night's sleep tonight!

For both of us.

What do you hope for your children?

Just for them to have a future.

For them to have a childhood.

They're not growing up with the sort of stuff people of my age had to grow up with.

There's times before I've actually broke down in front of Lisa.

Cos my past, she doesn't really know much about it.

I don't want her to know much about it.

There's a lot of people that have stuff sitting on hold.

It affects people in different ways.

Taking their own lives, stuff like that.

I think that's why a lot of people from the Shankill go and join bands.

They probably feel the same way as what I do.

About being a big child again!

I would love to get first or second. I'd love it beyond imagination. Love it.

But realistically, I think you're trying for third.

But listen. I want you to try your total best here on Saturday.

I'm being serious. We have a point to prove.

It's the first week back at school for Jordan, after half term.

He's been asked to see the music department about joining the school band.

Jordan, I have sent for you because I've been looking at our instrumental time-tables.

There's a space that has come up on snare drumming.

If you're really interested in this,

I want you to go home and do some practising

and next Tuesday, the teacher is going to audition some of the boys

and we're going to see if we can get someone to fill the spaces left on that time-table.

Would you enjoy that?

-How do you feel?

-Amazing!

-A wee bit happy or a big bit happy?

-Big bit!

I'm going to go home and ask my daddy

can I play the drum, and practise.

If I get through, I'll be playing in a band.

-That's great.

-The school band.

-The drum?

-Yeah.

Oooh!

-He's loving it.

-Are you loving it?

-You'd better have it right.

-I know, but Daddy, I have to practise.

Can you help me practise?

You can play a tune and I can play with it.

Play along with it.

-That's what the teacher said.

-Right. OK.

Right.

When?

Any time before...

Like any time.

Peace has brought tourists from all over the world

to the streets of Belfast.

They come to see the places that were once headline news.

Who are these people? Are they tourists?

Yeah.

Why do tourists come here, Jordan?

To look at all the murals.

-Where do you think they come from?

-They come from Spain and all.

-Why have they come to look at these murals?

-I don't know.

If you were a tour guide, what would you tell them, Jordan?

All the stuff about the murals.

I'd tell them what happened and all in the past.

Like a war.

And the Shankill bomb.

The Shankill bomb of 1993

was the single worst atrocity to hit this community.

The bomb exploded in a crowded fish shop

on a busy Saturday afternoon.

It affected everybody, but none more so than the leader of the Westies.

My father died on the Thursday. He was in hospital for an operation.

And on the Saturday,

my brother and his girlfriend and their daughter were killed at this spot

by the IRA.

Why were they there that day?

They were actually in the flower shop getting their wreaths.

And they went into the fish shop, she always loved them crab sticks.

They were buying them.

-They were getting a wreath for your father?

-Yep.

Do you always mark this spot with flowers?

Yes, I always do it the night before, every year.

A lot of things have changed over the years.

Would you say people still have nightmares

and still struggle with the awful stuff they've seen and been through?

Yeah, definitely.

As I say, it's...

Us over here suffered an awful lot during the conflict.

Hundreds of people have been affected by it.

Hundreds.

Are the wounds still raw, would you say?

A lot of time yet.

Tuck those shirts in.

It's the Battle of the Shankill,

a day when most of the bands fight it out for the title Band of the Road.

I've now spent more than two months here, and I'm beginning to understand

why the bands mean so much to these men.

But my feelings about it are mixed.

In a world where so much is left unspoken,

this music is a release for men with dark memories and troubled pasts.

But it also entrenches them

and keeps old prejudices alive.

Shh! Shh!

The third position goes to the West Belfast Volunteers.

Folks, first position goes to the Shankill Star.

Paul walks away empty-handed.

Well done.

Thank you, mate. Thank you.

It's the morning of Jordan's drumming audition,

a chance for him to win a place in the school band.

Have you prepared something for me?

Do you want to try anything?

I'll have a go.

See what you can do on the snare drum.

PLAYS SKILFULLY

Brilliant. Very good. That's great.

PLAYS BEATS

Perfect.

Try that again. It's just getting that open sound. Yeah.

Jackie's discovered that it's possible for former inmates

to visit the now derelict Maze Prison.

He's decided not only to go himself,

but to take Jordan with him.

The prisoners in The Maze, what were they in there for?

Oh, different things.

Murders, bombings, shootings.

Different things.

-But the prison was mostly for...

-Political prisoners.

Why would you like to take Jordan back to The Maze now?

To let him see what we went through. What we lived in.

And hopefully, as I say, he doesn't go down that road.

He's a good boy, though. He's got dreams.

We were all good boys!

But unfortunately that changed.

Is he at that age now where he does want to know a bit more?

Yes, he's starting to ask more questions.

So often he so wants to please you.

Coming to tell you things. He so wants to please his daddy.

Do you think when you go back to The Maze

that'll fill in a wee hole he doesn't know about you?

It'll excite him.

Well, as I say, there'll be things that he'll ask

and there's things I won't answer.

I'll either say, "No, Jordan, I'm not telling you that."

There's things I want him to hear and things I don't want him to hear.

Do you think everybody's in the same boat as you, Jackie?

Mm-hmm. Aye.

-Are there some things people just never talk about again?

-Yep.

There's things happen you just keep in to yourself.

Nobody knows.

-Only you.

-Uh-huh. You keep it to yourself.

-So would you like to be in the band? Come back next week?

-Yeah!

-Definitely?

-Good stuff. I'd love to have you back.

-OK.

-Thank you.

Mummy, I got in!

Daddy has to buy me a drum now!

'These drum sticks are lucky, then, after all!'

See you later.

(Bye! See you later!)

Right. Come along.

Are you going to push?

You'll have to push the baby. I've got to smoke!

-When was he born, Lee?

-Half one, Christmas morning.

Best Christmas present ever!

So what's he going to do in the band?

Uh, I'll get him on the flute first for a while.

Then when he's big enough get him onto the bass drum or side drum.

-Bass drum, side drum, like his daddy?

-Oh, yeah.

I can't wait.

-Why do you do it, Paul?

-Because I love it.

-Do you?

-I love it. I've always been round bands all my life.

Always. And I take great pride in it. It teaches you right from wrong, if you get my drift.

You're hoping that the boys will be sensible grown-ups

in years to come rather than fucking idiots running about taking drugs and getting up to no good.

Lads, listen, serious.

The collection tonight is the most important thing for us.

The band needs about ten grand. We must score here.

Sorry to bother you.

Thank you very much. Cheers. Thank you. Good night.

It's this street here.

JORDAN GIGGLES

It's the day of Jackie and Jordan's visit to The Maze.

CONVERSATION UNCLEAR

Go easy, now, Daddy.

In case we crash.

It's too slippy.

-Jordan, shut up.

-Daddy, shh!

I'm aware Jackie is not likely to tell Jordan everything he's seen.

Nor everything he's done.

But I'm struck by the fact that he now seems able to share something of his own past

with his 11-year-old son.

-There isn't even no water in them.

-No.

-It's bone dry.

-That's right.

That's the way you come out. When you had a visitor you had to stand till they came out.

You had to stand here. They called you and you had to stand here.

Stand next to this.

Come and see where the beds were. Wait till you see.

It's really hard. We only had them at one time, then they brought these in.

-Why?

-Because that's all you had.

See here?

-That was your light switch.

-Where was your toilet?

A pot.

-Is it scary?

-Yeah.

-Would you be scared?

-Yeah.

Here you used to have curtains.

Did people not try and hang themself?

No.

-Tell me why people was being sent to The Maze.

-Because there was a war.

What do you mean, war?

-The IRA and the UVF and UDA.

-Paramilitaries.

-Yes.

It was a war. It was all paramilitaries came in here.

Jordan, do you know what the paramilitaries were? Do you understand?

No, not much.

Do you understand what they were fighting for, or anything?

What were you fighting for?

-The Cause.

-What's that?

-To keep Ulster.

Like Protestants and Catholics did great harm?

Yes.

Tell me what's going on in your head.

Mad things going on in my head.

-Was The Maze that scary?

-Aye.

Aye.

I hope they don't go through what we went through. Or see what we saw.

-What did you see?

-Everything.

People getting shot and all?

Did you see someone have their arm blown off?

You don't see that now, sure you don't.

-You don't want to see that.

-No.

-I don't even want to see someone dead.

-No.

It's not nice.

Not nice.

-Why?

-Because it's just sick.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd