Ann Clwyd - Rebel with a Cause Week In Week Out

veteran at the centre of a political storm over the NHS in Wales. Those

are shocking figures. Some people are going to die by the time they're

actually getting treatment. She's embarrassed the party leadership in

Wales. She has produced nothing but anonymous comments. We don't whether

they are correct or not and they can't be investigated. What about

the people who have died waiting for treatment? All he kept saying was,

proep promise -- "Promise me if anything happens you won't leave it

there." Can you feel her pain for a second? I can and I'm deeply sorry.

Tonight, we examine the evidence and ask, is Ann Clwyd right?

I'm off to Westminster with MP Ann Clwyd. A very familiar routine for

you? It is. Shall I put your bag in the boot? Yes. I'll do that. Thank

you. I'm accompanying her on a journey behind the headlines, to

find out why she's so determined to ask awkward questions about the NHS

in Wales. There's a feeling that you have become a real maverick and your

campaign is undermining Labour in Wales. For critics to say you can't

be critical of the NHS is not doing mie constituents any good, because

they're the ones on long waiting lists. Some of them may have died on

hospital waiting lists and that is not right. If it's not right, you've

got to say so. When she was asked to review the NHS complaints system in

England, she received scores of complaints from Wales too. The

letters from people haven't stopped. Letters and e-mails and phone calls.

There's a lot of people out there who are hurting. A lot of people who

are suffering. And they think that somehow I can put things right,

well, I'm trying to. She's driven straight into controversy over the

NHS in Wales, criticising poor care and long waiting lists. Which she

says are falling behind the rest of the UK. At this meeting in Cardiff

in March, they heard familiar and harrowing complaints. Simply broken.

One story after another. Where is my husband? He's dead.

Labour-supporting Jackie parsons is here too. She is one of the hundreds

of people who has written to app. I'm 54 and I've been waiting for a

hip replacement. It's gradually got worse and worse. The bit that irks

many is I've been on the sick from work for six months and I've been

sacked. I'm still awaiting my hip replacement and it's just a

disaster. Jackie is in constant pain. At home in Barry, where she

was once the town mayor, she has to rely on carers as he waits. I've got

two parents who are in their 70s do things that I wouldn't even bat an

eyelid about doing, simple things like shopping and taking me out.

Driving is out the window. I can't shower. I was an active mum to this.

Sorry. Take care. And you. She's not alone. There are more than 56,000

trauma and orthopaedic patients waiting for surgery and one in five

of those has waited more than 26 weeks. Aberdare, the constituency

Anne collude has held for 30 years. I asked her to see the complaints

she says she has received about the Welsh NHS. I never thought I would

be deluged and they're still coming in. Sometimes people send e-mails,

sometimes people send letters, sometimes they send a whole file.

And they're from all over Wales. Probably in all of boxes you would

find about three that are saying, "I've had very good treatment in the

NHS." Did you imagine that this would be the sort of response you

would get? No. Never. I just never thought that I would be deluged.

That's the only word I can used. There are letters, phone calls and

e-mails and they're still coming in. She was so concerned that she sent a

summary of the complaints to the First Minister, Carwyn Jones. This

all started when she complained over the care she said her husband

received before his died nearly two years ago at the University Hospital

of Wales. I had no idea that Owen was going to die in that hospital.

And I imagine a lot of people take people into hospital and believe the

same things. How do you reflect on him? He was a fighter. He should

have been alive to carry on the fight, but I'm carrying on the

fight, not just for him, but I hope for a lot of others too. And that's

exactly what she is doing. There are increasing complaints about nurses

who fail to show care and compassion to their patients. What exactly will

the Prime Minister do about that? I think the honourable lady speaks for

the whole House and country in raising this issue. David Cameron

went on to ask Ann Clwyd to write the English review that prompted the

flood of Welsh complaints, which she summarised and sent to Carwyn Jones.

We have obtained that summary, using Freedom of Information Act. It

precised 75 different cases, but the fist minister said he hadn't seen

enough. -- First Minister said he hadn't seen enough. I've asked her.

The minister for health has asked her. She has produced anonymous

comments, we don't know whether they are correct or not and they can't be

investigated. We have asked her on more than one occasion. Wouldn't it

not have been reasonable to ring those people and ask if you could

refer the details. Tim, if someone had put the resources in to do that

we might have been able to. But... Would you... I can't accept that

argument. When the First Minister criticised you for not supplying

details. If you don't think the details were there in the several

pages of letters then what else can you do? She also highlighted longs

waits for diagnostic tests and sometimes for surgery, compared to

England. Those are shocking figures. : That means some people are going

to get worse because they haven't been diagnosed. Some people are

going to die because by the time they actually get treatments it may

be too late. People like Ron Jones from Newport. Ron was a Labour

councillor and a big personality. He was I have bubbly character and he

loved a laugh aned joke. He -- and a joke. He would drive you mad in the

morning. He was like Fred Astaire bouncing around like a rubber ball.

Ron's health began to fail and in May 2012 he was told he needed heart

surgery at the University Hospital of Wales, in Cardiff. We went down

to see the cardiologist and he said there were three to six months

waiting for him. He should have had a triple bypass in 26 weeks, but the

wait went on and on. I was annoyed. I was annoyed to think ease waiting

all this time and wasn't getting better and to me it was an urgent

operation. You could see him deteriorating. He was losing weight

and couldn't water the garden. His angina spray, he was using as much

as 15 or 20 times a day and all he kept saying was, "Promise me, if

anything happens to me before this operation, that you won't leave it

there." Last August, Ron was taken ill in the middle of the night. He

come out of the bathroom and he said I need an ambulance, I'm dying.

Initially you thought if he was taken in as an emergency this might

actually mean he would get the operation that would save his life?

Yes. He didn't make it? No. Ron died as paramedics tried to save him. He

had waited 15 months for heart operation. It was a shock. I didn't

expect him to die. I didn't honestly expect him to die. 15 months of just

waiting for a phone call. Latest figures show 477 patients waiting

for heart surgery. At the two specialist centres in South Wales,

at one in Swansea and here at Cardiff's University Hospital of

Wales. Adam Cairns is in charge here and we asked him about Ron Jones'

case. Can you feel her pain and understand what it must be like to

watch the person you love deteriorate in front of you? I can.

I can. As I say, I'm deeply sorry that the family's had what I think

must be a truly awful experience. That ex-emifies why it is so

important that we deal with this problem and we make sure that we get

to a position, which is our plan, to ensure that patients who need this

kind of surgery get it more quickly. Ron Jones was one of 238 people

waiting here for heart surgery when he died. Some patients are being

sent out of Wales to ease the pressure, but there are still 119 on

the list. How will you reduce the lists? How many extra patients will

you deal with and how many are going to be sent outside Wales? Currently,

we are working to finalise a plan with the commissioners to increase

our capacity in this hospital by 300 cases a year. In order to do that,

we have already recruited a further surgeon and we'll need to employ

more surgeons in order to make sure we can achieve that. We think we can

deliver that. The health board told us it has a shortage of intensive

care beds and asked the Government for more money to increase capacity,

especially for heart patients. Last year, there were more than 37,000

operations cancelled across Wales for non-clinical reasons, including

lack of staff and beds. Including those in intensive care. When my

surgical colleagues knock at my door and asked for beds and I'm saying,

no, sorry I'm not doing that without having fully looked at what the

options are and how can I create a bed? And that's a situation which is

going on in every Welsh hospital, maybe not on a daily basis, but

certainly perhaps a weekly base -- basis, where there is pressure for

beds. If you're the patient whose operation is postponed for whatever

reason, you are going to be traumatised, but it might also be

that the physical nature of the disease process could be adversely

affected and it could become inoperable. You might die as a

result? Yes. Yes? Absolutely, yes. We have discovered that across Welsh

hospitals and despite increasing demand, 2,770 beds have been cut in

the last ten years. 312 in the last year a loan. All -- alone. All

issues for Ann Clwyd who has been getting unexpected report. Carwyn

Jones and Welsh Labour Party may not have respect, but we do and I want

you to stand and pay triB tuT to Ann Clwyd, a true champion of our

national health -- priB uT to Ann Clwyd -- tribute to Ann Clwyd, a

true cammion of our National Health Service. -- champion of our National

Health Service. football. How is your relationship

with Carwyn Jones these days? I AM not going to talk about that. You

may think I AM half asleep, but I AM not. As we stop at Reading

services, she hears another complaint. This lady has not

followed you from Cardiff? So you are a supporter? Absolutely. I will

vote for her myself. Mr Speaker my constituent is seeking to be treated

by the English NHS, will the rest that like Prime Minister help her

and other NHS refugees who are facing long waiting times because of

this government. That refugee is this woman who lives in

Monmouthshire. She has to take a cocktail of medication every day.

One day I take 100 pills. She takes bile and -- she has bile and gastric

problems and has difficulty digesting food. Without these, I'd

go downhill quickly. She has been waiting more than six months for an

NHS specialist appointments. She borrowed money for a diagnosis at a

private hospital in Bristol, but she needs more tests and her money has

run out. It is extremely frustrating. I have cried. I have

been so upset thinking, how do I make these people listen? Marianne

is an artist. Her home is just inside the Welsh border and that is

a problem. Right now we are in Wales. Behind you is the river, on

the other side is England's. So if you lived half a mile that we? I

would be referred to NHS Bristol. You would've the biopsy. And I would

have had a full diagnosis of my condition. How does that make you

feel? It makes me extremely angry. She is not alone. 125,000 patients

are waiting for diagnostic services, more than at any time in

the last five years. Marion asked for the health board to pay for her

to be treated at Bristol but they have refused twice. She has appealed

directly to the Health Secretary in England although we had no authority

over health matters in Wales. Marianna is amongst thousands of

patients waiting for treatment. I AM meeting Doctor Alison who represents

gastroenterologists from across the country. You concerned about delays

and the time it takes for people to receive treatment? I have to say

that I'm concerned about this. Weights are longer than they are in

England. There are clear current symptoms of bowel cancer and they

should be seen promptly but those with vague symptoms often do have to

wait quite a lot longer than the shoot. It is not just new patients,

there are also long waits for those with conditions which needs regular

monitoring. There are examples of hospitals in Wales which I3 years

behind their recall dates. Patients turned up on the list with cancer

already established when you are trying to prevent cancer. Ann Clwyd

is seeing another constituent on a waiting list. Biden needs me free

but he has no idea when will be. The referral was December last year. I

rang up a couple of weeks ago and was told that the original 18 week

period is now 26 weeks at least. I AM considering seeing a patient --

specialist myself, paying go private. I do not think it is right

that in a constituency like this where people have worked hard all

their lives, they have to dip into their savings to get a quick

diagnosis will stop when you compare with other countries in the UK, for

instance England, Wales does not look too good. Most people when

asked say we are satisfied with the work the NHS is doing in Wales. That

is good. A lot of people have good experiences with the NHS but at the

same time, a minority and a growing minority have not had good

experiences and are having to wait or fork out money themselves. Biden

paid privately in the end. The health board told us they cannot

comment on individual cases but 90% of people have completed treatment

within 26 weeks. News of the Nuffield report, an independent

review of the NHS in Wales felt there were longer waiting lists for

some medical treatments but overall Wales is in line with the rest of

the UK. The health minister is launching another initiative. He is

keen to accentuate the positive. The survey last week found that nine out

of ten are happy with our NHS experience. He says Wales

outperforms England when it comes to some cancer waiting times. The

proportion of patients waiting more than the 26 week target for

treatment has risen from around 8% in 2010 to almost one in five in

2014, almost 200,000 people. It is not acceptable to me that people

wait longer than the 26 weeks unless there are good clinical reasons why

that should be the case. I have made it clear to the NHS that I expect

over the next 12 months, weights over 26 weeks are brought down

progressively. They came down significantly over the last few

months and its spectrum to be brought down and eliminated. The

uncomfortable fact is that people are still dying on waiting lists.

When people die on waiting lists because they are on the waiting

list, that is entirely unacceptable. It is not a new situation, it has

been going on for some time and is going on today. If you look at the

figures you quoted from for cardiac conditions, you would've seen that

the number of people who died on the waiting list Wales has fallen in

each of the last three years. The figures are going down. The position

is improving. We have since found that the latest figures for 2013 up

to 2014 show a rise. 29 patients died while waiting for heart surgery

in Wales, 12 more than the year before. We have got Ann Clwyd to

meet Jackie Parsons, one of the thousands who wrote to her. Jackie,

you have had bad news. Yes, yesterday afternoon I got a

telephone call saying that the operation has been cancelled again.

How many times has it been cancelled? Three times. Are you

asking for special treatment? Absolutely not. I ask for something

that people in England get within 18 weeks. No one should be in pain.

That is not a high expectation. It is a reasonable expectation. After

her appeal to the English Health Secretary who is critical of the

management of the NHS in Wales, Marianna has come to Westminster to

meet him, accompanied by her local MP David Davis. Hello. I AM good

today, thank you. We were not allowed to film their discussion but

two hours later... Hello, how was it? It looks like he is not able to

do anything for me personally. I do not know where I go from here other

than making a lot of noise. David is here because he is a politician and

this is a political issue and he wants to make political capital out

of it. I think that is very unfair. I AM here because Marianna

approached me. I will be there for any constituent who approaches me.

Carwyn Jones says the Tories are trying to make political capital out

of the NHS. It is an attack on wheels. That may resonate with some

people? I think that is disgraceful. It is rubbish. That is something

wrong with the NHS in Wales and I will not be silent about it. What

will you do from here Marianna? Probably cry when I get home. The

NHS in Bristol says it has a duty to users own resources as well as it

can. Ann Clwyd believes that the lack of funding by the Welsh

Government is one of the key reasons behind the long waiting lists and

cancelled operations. Their argument is that they did not have sufficient

funds from Westminster. Everybody makes those arguments. Of course

there are insufficient funds but they decide how the cake is shared

out. If you decide to give a small slice to the NHS, you are taking the

decision how you cut spending. You did not ring fence and protect the

NHS when it was protected in England. We protected the National

Health Service and the social services but the National Health

Service relies upon that. Our delayed transfer care figures in

Wales at an all-time low whereas in England they are going through the

roof and compromising the ability of the NHS to discharge patients when

they are fit and ready to be discharged. We did the right thing.

Serious concerns have been raised about safety and the quality of

patient care in two hospitals in Wales. The Andrews report makes

headlines across Britain as evidence of widespread neglect is detailed in

our health board. Ann Clwyd says policing of the NHS has two

improved. If there was a system of independent regulation in Wales in

place then events like this should never happen. An inspection regime

is absolutely necessary. I very much hope that the Welsh Government will

put this in place very soon. The health minister has ruled out a full

enquiry but announced a regime of spot checks in hospitals in Wales

and says the NHS in Wales is doing a good job. Does he accept more needs

to be done? Reform of the NHS in Wales has been too slow, I agree

with that. I AM determined we bring the three major reconfiguration

exercises in Wales to a conclusion. I AM determined we will make things

happen in as fast and timely way as we can while continuing to respect

the rights of people. You by what Ann Clwyd has said about all those?

I AM not embarrassed. I agree with some of it and disagree with some

other things. Jackie is home from hospital but her operation has been

cancelled for the fourth time. I had the stockings on to go to theatre,

the arrow on my leg, I'd had the pre-med and I was just waiting for

the final injection and real me off. I was ready to go. I was absolutely

gutted. It was cancelled at the last moment because the surgeon had not

been told she had an allergy to the text. Or cancellations no, it is

ridiculous. I have listened to her and I would say I AM very sorry she

has had this experience. When I look at this case, there are some very

sad aspects to it. I agree. It is terrible to say... The fourth time,

how does that sound? I know. This is not something I AM proud of. The day

after this interview, Jackie had her operation. Cardiff and Vale health

board says it is spending millions of pounds to reduce waiting lists.

This morning Marianna heard that her health board had agreed to pay for

her to receive treatment from the consultant she has been seeing in

Bristol on the NHS. And this woman is still waiting for the outcome of

the investigation into the death of her partner while on a waiting list.

Ann Clwyd's personal fight for answers over the death of her

husband continues. She is on to the second stage of the NHS complaints

process. The MP has announced she is not standing again. Do you see this

as your last great campaign as an MP? I will not see this as. Because

it is not. When I said I was packing up next year, this is just a pause.

It does not mean I AM going to shut up.

Cheerio. One thing is almost certain, this may not be this

rebel's last cause.