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This programme contains some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting from the start | 0:00:02 | 0:00:06 | |
'A visit to the zoo has been a staple of family life | 0:00:06 | 0:00:08 | |
for more than a century.' | 0:00:08 | 0:00:10 | |
A lot of us will remember the experience of seeing | 0:00:13 | 0:00:16 | |
our first wild animal at the zoo as a child. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:20 | |
But is it time that zoos took a long, hard look at what they do? | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
Zoos, if they stay as they are, inevitably will become extinct. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:33 | |
The public will just stop going to them. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:35 | |
I'm Liz Bonnin. I've studied and worked in zoos, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:41 | |
and I've observed just how intelligent animals can be. | 0:00:41 | 0:00:45 | |
Chase and tickle, he wants to chase and tickle with you now. | 0:00:45 | 0:00:49 | |
I want to chase and tickle with you too! | 0:00:49 | 0:00:53 | |
But the more science is revealing about animals, | 0:00:53 | 0:00:57 | |
the more difficult questions are being raised | 0:00:57 | 0:01:01 | |
about why and how animals are kept in zoos. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
Why are zoos still keeping elephants | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
now that we know captivity can halve their life expectancy? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:13 | |
To us it just became more and more clear that there was no... | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
there was no way to really make this work. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
We want to be able to sleep at night. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
Did captivity drive one of SeaWorld's orcas | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
to kill his trainer? | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is any mental | 0:01:25 | 0:01:30 | |
aberration that is a result of living in a zoological park. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
Why do so many zoo animals exhibit behaviours | 0:01:34 | 0:01:38 | |
that are hardly seen in the wild? | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
It does indicate that something is not right. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:44 | |
Is the battle to save endangered animals | 0:01:44 | 0:01:47 | |
one that zoos can simply never win? | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
We feel like janitors of the human culture. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:56 | |
We're trying to clean this mess up. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
I want to ultimately find out if zoos need to change, | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
to serve animals and humans better. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:04 | |
Or if they should be consigned to history. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:08 | |
A day out at the zoo, in Copenhagen. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
In 2014, the zoo offered families an educational experience that | 0:02:24 | 0:02:30 | |
some might find disturbing. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:32 | |
A two-year-old giraffe called Marius was culled, | 0:02:34 | 0:02:40 | |
then dissected in front of them and fed to the lions. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:46 | |
What happened here lifted the lid on a practice | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
few other zoos embrace so publicly. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:51 | |
Today I'm here to see it happen again. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
Copenhagen Zoo has culled another animal. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
This time it's a sable antelope. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
How was she culled? What method did you use? | 0:03:08 | 0:03:10 | |
She was shot with a rifle and you can see, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
if you want to, that she was shot right in the brain here. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:17 | |
And obviously, this is not a very enjoyable part of our job, | 0:03:17 | 0:03:23 | |
but the key here is to do it so the animals have no idea what's coming | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
and it has to be swift and efficient. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
The culling of Marius triggered a global storm of protest. | 0:03:31 | 0:03:37 | |
In the firing line was Bengt Holst, director of research at the zoo. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:42 | |
Bengt, were you surprised by the reaction, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
by the backlash that you got because of the culling of Marius? | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
Yes, very much indeed, and that's because we have done this, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
we have used this concept for more than 30 years here in the zoo, | 0:03:52 | 0:03:56 | |
and we have done it with lions and with bears | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
and leopards and antelopes and a lot of different animals, | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
not with giraffes until now. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:04 | |
But it was really strange because we have never had this reaction before. | 0:04:04 | 0:04:09 | |
It may seem cruel, | 0:04:09 | 0:04:11 | |
but culling has come about with the modernisation of zoos. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:15 | |
In the 19th century, when zoos began, | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
most of the animals were taken from the wild. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
Zoos would order animals for spring time, you know, because there was | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
a new season and you'd bring them in and if they survived the summer, | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
that was great, but if not, you'd just order some more next year. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
Since the 1980s, zoos have aimed to develop a more positive | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
relationship with the natural world. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:44 | |
Today it's much more conservation-minded. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
It's ethically wrong to take all animals in from the wild, so we | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
strive at being self-sustaining with as many animals as ever possible. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:53 | |
Now, more than 90% of the animals in zoos are born in captivity. | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
And around 90% of all species kept are not endangered in the wild. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:08 | |
Animals are carefully paired across zoos around the world | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
to avoid in-breeding and to ensure genetic diversity. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
But there is a consequence. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
If you want to do serious breeding with animals, | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
where you go for a healthy population far into the future, | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
then you cannot avoid having, at some stage, | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
if they breed well, a surplus. | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
That's because zoos can't breed just the animals | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
they need to maintain a sustainable population. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:37 | |
You cannot go into a shop and buy three males and four females, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
for example, if that's what you need for your population. | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
You have to let them breed | 0:05:43 | 0:05:45 | |
and you cannot predict what is the sex ratio. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
At Copenhagen, surplus animals are also produced | 0:05:49 | 0:05:53 | |
because the zoo takes a particular approach to animal welfare. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:58 | |
This particular animal is considered surplus to the programme, | 0:05:58 | 0:06:01 | |
in the sense that her genes are already represented | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
fairly well through numerous of her siblings. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:09 | |
The parents of this antelope, just like Marius's parents, | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
were not paired in the international breeding programme. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:18 | |
Instead, Copenhagen decided to allow them | 0:06:18 | 0:06:20 | |
to breed, rather than use methods to stop them, as other zoos do. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:27 | |
Why cull, as opposed to using contraceptives? | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
Because by using contraceptives, | 0:06:30 | 0:06:31 | |
you take away the breeding behaviour from the animals. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:35 | |
I think it's very important that we give the animals | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
an opportunity to perform as much natural behaviour as ever possible. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:41 | |
And breeding behaviour is a big part of that natural behaviour. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:45 | |
If you take away that part, you have a welfare problem. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
You reduce their welfare. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
Before considering culling, | 0:06:51 | 0:06:52 | |
zoos look at moving surplus animals to other zoos. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:57 | |
But space is limited, and priority is given to housing animals | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
that are valuable to the breeding programmes. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
This sort of proves that there are no surplus animals. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
Everything has a role to play. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
As controversial as Copenhagen's policy is, | 0:07:12 | 0:07:15 | |
perhaps what's most surprising is how openly it's carried out here. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
It's not known how many other zoos take the same approach to breeding, | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
but it's estimated that between 3,000-5,000 healthy animals | 0:07:24 | 0:07:30 | |
are culled by European zoos every year. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
I would say in general, it is actually pretty common, | 0:07:34 | 0:07:38 | |
but many zoos are not so open about it. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:42 | |
Some are doing it in disguise. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
When Marius the giraffe hit the headlines, | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
Copenhagen says it was criticised by other zoos. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
We got attacks from other zoos, also in Europe. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:56 | |
Zoos that practise culling, or...? | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
Yes, some zoos that practise culling. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
Does this mean that the zoos that were culling, | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
but had attacked you, were saying you shouldn't have made it public, | 0:08:03 | 0:08:06 | |
you shouldn't have engaged in the conversation? | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
Some even said that you should have done it without... | 0:08:09 | 0:08:12 | |
Keep it behind the scenes and then don't mention it at all. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
But I think it's not the way forward. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:18 | |
The journey zoos are on from the less-enlightened | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
days of the past has reached a critical point. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:34 | |
The ever-growing human population means the wild has shrunk, | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
with species disappearing faster than ever. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:40 | |
And science has moved on in leaps and bounds | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
in its understanding of animals. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:50 | |
But are zoos adapting with the times? | 0:08:50 | 0:08:53 | |
If you peel it all back, | 0:08:53 | 0:08:55 | |
and you look at, say, London Zoo in 1828 - | 0:08:55 | 0:08:57 | |
and all the other zoos throughout the 19th century - | 0:08:57 | 0:09:03 | |
they all had big animals, | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
showy animals, colourful animals, mainly from Africa or from Asia. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
The typical zoo today has got exactly the same collections. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
They have not moved on from that. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
Zoos tell us that the welfare of their animals | 0:09:16 | 0:09:20 | |
is at the heart of what they do. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:22 | |
But is it? | 0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | |
Zoos have certainly published dozens of scientific papers | 0:09:24 | 0:09:27 | |
about their animals. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:28 | |
But all that you can find, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:32 | |
all these studies carried out by various zoos around the world, | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
it's not always easy to talk to zoos about some of this research. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
So it's hard to judge whether they're really keeping up | 0:09:41 | 0:09:43 | |
with the latest scientific insights into animal needs. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:49 | |
At least, in most cases. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
There is one zoo that's been quite keen to talk to us about their work | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
and the stickier issues surrounding the welfare of captive animals. | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
-ARCHIVE: -'A day at the zoo. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:05 | |
'The Detroit Zoological Park ranks with the finest in the world.' | 0:10:05 | 0:10:11 | |
Opened in 1928, Detroit Zoo kept the same animals | 0:10:11 | 0:10:14 | |
most other zoos did - including elephants, a star attraction. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:18 | |
I've heard people say, "Oh, they haven't got an elephant in that zoo, | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
"can't be any good." | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
And if your zoo isn't popular | 0:10:25 | 0:10:28 | |
because it doesn't have the animals that the public wants to see, | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
they'll probably have to close the doors. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
So we have to educate the public. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:38 | |
I'm visiting the zoo to find out about a novel approach to | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
animal welfare, a vision that's raising a question for all zoos. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
This place is taking a long, hard look at the scientific evidence | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
to determine what animals it should keep and what it shouldn't. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
The zoo's director, Ron Kagan, wants to show me why, when it came | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
to elephants, he broke with 150 years of zoological tradition. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:12 | |
This used to be the indoor enclosure for Detroit's two Asian elephants. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:21 | |
Now, notice, there is more room for people... | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
-I was going to say! -..than there is for elephants. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
I didn't want to be smart about it, but how come | 0:11:26 | 0:11:28 | |
-there's more room for the people? -Because zoos, in the beginning, | 0:11:28 | 0:11:32 | |
were thinking a little bit more | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
about people than they were about animals. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
When they lived here, both elephants developed arthritis | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
and chronic foot problems. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
Many captive elephants have major problems with their feet | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
because they're not walking enough | 0:11:46 | 0:11:48 | |
and they're not walking on the right material. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
The Michigan climate exacerbated the problem of not giving | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
the elephants enough space. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:58 | |
When we had particularly long, harsh winters, | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
and the elephants had to stay indoors for long periods of time, | 0:12:01 | 0:12:05 | |
we knew that wasn't good for them. To us, it just became more | 0:12:05 | 0:12:09 | |
and more clear that there was no way to really make this work. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:11 | |
We want to be able to sleep at night. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:15 | |
In 2004, Detroit announced it was moving its elephants to a sanctuary. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:20 | |
There were people that said, oh, your attendance is going to drop | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
and this is going to hurt revenue and it's going to... | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
We said, you know, we don't think that's right. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:29 | |
But we're just not prepared to knowingly keep animals | 0:12:29 | 0:12:33 | |
that we don't think are doing well. | 0:12:33 | 0:12:35 | |
At the time, the zoo had just under a million visitors a year. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
Now, it gets almost one and a half million. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:46 | |
The reaction from the American Association of Zoos and Aquariums | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
who wanted the elephants moved to another zoo was less positive. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:54 | |
I lost my AAZA professional membership. | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
But what was their explanation for that? | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
The explanation was that I had discussed this publicly. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:06 | |
-I'm struggling with that. -Well... -Why are they so guarded? | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
Because, as is often the case in a profession, | 0:13:09 | 0:13:13 | |
people don't like dealing with complex ethical issues | 0:13:13 | 0:13:19 | |
in a public forum. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:21 | |
And that was very unsettling for a lot of people in the zoo world. | 0:13:21 | 0:13:25 | |
But Ron was determined to push on with a radical | 0:13:28 | 0:13:31 | |
rethink of what a zoo should be. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:35 | |
Instead of going, well, a good zoo must have elephants | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
and rhinos and tigers and lions, | 0:13:39 | 0:13:40 | |
you go, a good zoo must have animals that it knows can thrive | 0:13:40 | 0:13:45 | |
and it should not have animals that can't thrive. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
Detroit Zoo could see their own elephants were not thriving. | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
But assessing the welfare of captive elephants around the globe | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
requires a more systematic approach. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
And that's where science comes in. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
Zoos have what are called stud books for most of the animals | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
they keep - records of their genealogical background | 0:14:12 | 0:14:17 | |
as well as births, deaths, transfers and imports of animals. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
No-one really knew how well | 0:14:22 | 0:14:24 | |
the European zoo population of elephants were doing | 0:14:24 | 0:14:28 | |
until scientists studied these records. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
And what they found was disturbing. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
The most significant revelation | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
was how long the elephants in European zoos were living. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
It turned out captive-born female Asian elephants - | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
the majority of the zoo population - were living 19 years on average. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:49 | |
Scientists wanted to benchmark this against the wild. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
We looked to the nearest thing, which was timber camps in Burma. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:59 | |
And they've got a very good, equivalent stud book | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
for their population. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:03 | |
And we're by no means saying that | 0:15:03 | 0:15:05 | |
that is an ideal environment for elephants. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
It's hard, they get worked hard. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:09 | |
But even with all that, we find that | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
they were living till they were about 40. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
So at least double what we were seeing in zoos. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
It really raised a massive red flag that something is not right | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
in the way that zoos are keeping elephants. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:25 | |
The research was published and a backlash began. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
From zoos, it was on the whole quite negative and hostile. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
And there was a reaction to discrediting us, | 0:15:36 | 0:15:40 | |
rather than looking at their practices | 0:15:40 | 0:15:44 | |
and the welfare of their elephants | 0:15:44 | 0:15:45 | |
so that something could be done about it. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:47 | |
So why are zoos still keeping elephants? | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
It's breakfast time at Twycross Zoo in Warwickshire. | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
Three of these female Asian elephants were brought | 0:16:00 | 0:16:04 | |
here from timber camps in the 1980s. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:07 | |
The latest addition to the herd is two years old. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
The zoo's director, Sharon Redrobe, is happy to discuss | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
what the science is revealing about elephants in captivity. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:20 | |
The data is showing that elephants are dying at a much earlier age | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
in captivity in zoos. So how does one react to that as a zoo director? | 0:16:26 | 0:16:30 | |
It's clearly not good enough in zoos at the moment. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:35 | |
The challenge with elephants is that they live, | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
they should live, a very long time. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
So any changes we make now won't be seen for 30, 40 years. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
But we do know that we used to feed them a lot of cake, | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
for goodness' sake, and they used to get really bad teeth, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
then they used to get very aggressive | 0:16:50 | 0:16:51 | |
and people would shoot them. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
This zoo allows the elephants to make choices, | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
rather than directly handling them, as many zoo keepers still do. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:02 | |
According to the science, two risk factors limit | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
the life spans of elephants in captivity - stress and obesity. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:09 | |
What will be really interesting is to see things like, | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
baby Escher when she grows up, will she have arthritis? | 0:17:13 | 0:17:16 | |
I really hope not, because we've changed the flooring, | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
we've changed their diets. So now we don't have fat elephants. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
By establishing how elephants are faring in captivity with empirical | 0:17:22 | 0:17:27 | |
evidence, scientists have helped to raise the ambition of some zoos. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:32 | |
I think this generation of elephants have suffered, | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
and you can see that in the scientific data. We can see it. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:40 | |
It's a shame, shame on us. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:42 | |
But the next thing is what we're going to do about it. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
And the next generation needs to be protected, | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
and we learn from the past. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
The Government has told British zoos they must improve the welfare | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
of their elephants by 2021, or risk having to phase them out. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
I think the jury's still out in terms of whether enough | 0:18:05 | 0:18:09 | |
will be done, because I think the changes needed are probably so big. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
I'm very sceptical as to whether | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
that will happen in this time period. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
Science is giving zoos a new tool to help assess | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
the needs of their animals. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:33 | |
A method of determining why animals | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
often behave differently in zoos than in the wild. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:38 | |
Something that was poorly understood by those | 0:18:41 | 0:18:43 | |
who first kept animals, like this. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
Now, when this was built in the 1920s, | 0:18:48 | 0:18:51 | |
it was a really revolutionary kind of big space. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:56 | |
Which is shocking when you think about it, | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
but it was a long time ago. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:00 | |
And in those days, the animals were simply behind bars. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
This far from adequate space was home to the zoo's polar bears. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:09 | |
When I've seen some of the early footage, | 0:19:11 | 0:19:13 | |
I've seen as many as a dozen polar bears. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:15 | |
Now, the interesting thing to remember - | 0:19:15 | 0:19:17 | |
and sometimes people don't know this when they go to zoos - | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
is that there's some animals that are very social, like elephants. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
Primates, most primates. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:26 | |
Polar bears are not, so you normally would never see | 0:19:26 | 0:19:29 | |
more than two together, except if it's a mother and cubs. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:34 | |
So this must have been a very tricky thing to manage back then. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
This overcrowded environment may well have affected the way | 0:19:39 | 0:19:43 | |
the polar bears behaved. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:44 | |
I'm sure there was a lot of stereotypy, | 0:19:46 | 0:19:48 | |
but nobody was monitoring that or measuring that in the old days. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
This is stereotypic behaviour, | 0:19:58 | 0:20:00 | |
abnormal and repetitive with no obvious purpose. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
Animals still are developing stereotypic behaviour, | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
so it's not just a bygone era. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
It's a modern phenomenon that is still an issue. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
And I do think it does indicate that something's not right with | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
the environment, and those animals aren't getting what they need. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
Stereotypic behaviour is hardly ever seen in the wild, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:34 | |
but it's often seen in zoos. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
A 2004 Oxford University study | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
reported that around 80% of carnivores | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
performed stereotypic behaviour in captivity. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
I'm on my way to meet one of the scientists who gathered data | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
on abnormal behaviour in captive animals | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
to find out what the root causes might be. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
What she found fundamentally challenged | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
the way zoos keep and manage animals. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
This is the Belle Isle Zoo in Detroit, which opened in 1895. | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
It once housed one of the species most prone to stereotypic behaviour, | 0:21:18 | 0:21:23 | |
polar bears. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
Ever since she studied zoology, | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
Professor Georgia Mason has been fascinated by stereotypic behaviour. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:33 | |
I was learning all about how animal behaviour has evolved | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
and how evolution has shaped animals to be really efficient. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
And then, in captivity, you'd see all this extravagant, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
wasteful pacing and head bobbing. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
These animals should just be relaxing. This is the life of Riley. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
They've got everything they need. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
Professor Mason investigated why animals display this behaviour, | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
which many scientists believe is linked to stress | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
and could reflect psychological damage. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
It made me think, these things aren't arbitrary. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:08 | |
They're obviously reflecting something about the animal's | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
natural biology, so let's see if we can tell what that is. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
Professor Mason compared how much time carnivores in zoos spent | 0:22:16 | 0:22:20 | |
pacing with how far they range over time in the wild. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:25 | |
There was a striking correlation. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:29 | |
We found that species that naturally have large home ranges | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
and species that travel a relatively long way each day, | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
they're the ones most at risk of this behaviour in captivity. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
The species most at risk was the polar bear, | 0:22:42 | 0:22:45 | |
which has the largest home range of all land mammals - | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
sometimes over 250,000 square kilometres. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:52 | |
When Professor Mason came to publish her paper, | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
she challenged zoos to fundamentally improve | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
the way they keep wide-ranging carnivores or phase them out. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:04 | |
That really put the cat amongst the pigeons. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
Why do you think it was so incendiary? | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
I actually don't know! Because there's lots of conversations | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
within the zoo community about, strategically, | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
which species should they prioritise? | 0:23:16 | 0:23:18 | |
Should it be the endangered ones, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:19 | |
should it be the ones it's easiest to keep well? | 0:23:19 | 0:23:22 | |
Should it be the ones that most inspire the public? | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
-I mean, it's a fascinating debate. -It is. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:26 | |
And as part of that conversation, I would think you should be | 0:23:26 | 0:23:30 | |
allowed to say, let's not keep these. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
Not because it's impossible to keep them well, | 0:23:32 | 0:23:34 | |
but because it requires knowledge that we don't have yet, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
or resources that could be better spent on something else. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:39 | |
Among the theme parks of Orlando in Florida, | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
one zoological institution is struggling to persuade the public | 0:23:46 | 0:23:50 | |
that it's meeting the needs of some of the world's largest animals. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
-TV NEWS: -'This is SeaWorld. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:00 | |
'The atmosphere is part zoo, part circus.' | 0:24:00 | 0:24:04 | |
SeaWorld has displayed killer whales since 1964, | 0:24:04 | 0:24:10 | |
but it's now mired in controversy after a documentary called Blackfish | 0:24:10 | 0:24:14 | |
alleged that captivity severely compromises their welfare. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:20 | |
The film Blackfish examined the events leading up | 0:24:20 | 0:24:23 | |
to the fatal attack on a trainer by a male orca, | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
here at SeaWorld Orlando. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:29 | |
Like many people, I was moved by what I saw. | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
The footage and the accounts from ex-trainers were compelling, | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
and SeaWorld chose not to take part in the film. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
I went as far as calling for it to be shut down on Twitter. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
Now, SeaWorld have decided to talk to me today, | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
and I really want to hear their side of the story. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
Can science cut through the heated debate | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
about the welfare of SeaWorld's orcas? | 0:24:59 | 0:25:02 | |
Dr Chris Dold is SeaWorld's head vet. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
He's going to show me the orca that killed his trainer. | 0:25:07 | 0:25:11 | |
Oh, I think I can see... | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
-Look at that! So this is Tilikum? -So this is Tilikum, right here. | 0:25:13 | 0:25:17 | |
How would you describe Tilikum? | 0:25:20 | 0:25:23 | |
The most impressive animal in a zoological park, anywhere. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:28 | |
During a performance in 2010, Tilikum pulled his trainer, | 0:25:28 | 0:25:33 | |
Dawn Brancheau, into the pool. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:34 | |
PHONE CALL: | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
Within minutes, she had drowned. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:48 | |
Why do you think Tilikum attacked and killed Dawn? | 0:25:51 | 0:25:56 | |
It's a question that's been asked, and in the question right there, | 0:25:56 | 0:26:01 | |
it's a mischaracterisation of what happened. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:03 | |
This was not an attack, this was a terrible accident. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
And an accident that impacted all of us deeply. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
What happened? If it wasn't an attack, what exactly happened? | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
An accident, truly. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
One of the things that we work with our whales on | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
is how humans and whales safely interact, right? | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
Tilikum is different from the rest of our group of whales in that those | 0:26:21 | 0:26:25 | |
sorts of normal, safe working behaviours were not taught to him. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
Did the constraints of captivity contribute | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
to Tilikum's behaviour that day? | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
A 2012 study tracked a wild orca that travelled | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
almost 9,400 kilometres in 42 days, nonstop. | 0:26:44 | 0:26:49 | |
How far can they travel in any one day? | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
We'd see them pass our field camp | 0:26:53 | 0:26:55 | |
and then we'd find out, 24 hours later, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
that they were 100 miles away. | 0:26:57 | 0:26:59 | |
They've gone through millennia of evolution. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
Natural selection is what it is. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
These animals have to move those distances to stay healthy. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
Three trainers have been killed by captive orcas. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:13 | |
Tilikum has been involved in the deaths of two. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:16 | |
One before SeaWorld owned him, | 0:27:16 | 0:27:18 | |
as well as the death of a man who entered his pool in Orlando. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
According to SeaWorld's records, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
their orcas have injured trainers 12 times between 1988 and 2009. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:30 | |
This is an animal that ranges 100 miles a day, | 0:27:32 | 0:27:34 | |
that travels not only to hunt, that communicates vast distances | 0:27:34 | 0:27:39 | |
and is now in captivity. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:40 | |
Could this somehow contribute to a psychosis that leads to | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
an animal killing not one, but two, but three individuals? | 0:27:44 | 0:27:47 | |
The key thing is that Tilikum's behaviour - | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
and there is no evidence whatsoever that there is any mental aberration | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
that is a result of living in a zoological park or otherwise. | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
How do we know, when we don't have the research to show that? | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
Is it conjecture, is it opinions? | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
I think it's experiential evidence. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:09 | |
But is experiential good enough? | 0:28:09 | 0:28:11 | |
Does any of this not have to rely | 0:28:11 | 0:28:14 | |
on strong, empirical, scientific data? | 0:28:14 | 0:28:16 | |
I think, over time, deep, empirical evidence will come forward. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:21 | |
Since Dawn Brancheau's death, | 0:28:21 | 0:28:23 | |
action by a federal safety agency has stopped SeaWorld's trainers | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
from being in the water during orca shows. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
The question of whether killer whales might suffer | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
psychological problems in captivity remains unanswered. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
Scientists have investigated the cognitive capacities of dolphins, | 0:28:43 | 0:28:48 | |
members of the cetacean family that includes orcas. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
So this is one of the dolphins in front of the mirror, | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
and you can see he's doing something called contingency checking. | 0:28:56 | 0:29:00 | |
He's making strange motions with his head to see | 0:29:00 | 0:29:02 | |
if the image in the mirror is doing the same thing, | 0:29:02 | 0:29:04 | |
and once he figures out that that's him in the mirror, | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
then he goes on to use the mirror | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
to explore himself in a lot of different ways. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:13 | |
So here's one example of that. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
What do I look like upside down? | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
It's a beautiful thing to watch. | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
And here's another dolphin who has been | 0:29:20 | 0:29:22 | |
fooled into believing that he has been given a mark | 0:29:22 | 0:29:26 | |
under his pectoral fin and he's actually moving in a way in front | 0:29:26 | 0:29:30 | |
of the reflective surface to see if there is an actual mark there. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:34 | |
It's extraordinary behaviour, it's compelling behaviour. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
What this research tells us is that these beings have a sense of self. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:44 | |
They have a sense of who they are, what they look like | 0:29:44 | 0:29:49 | |
and what their circumstances are. | 0:29:49 | 0:29:53 | |
So they know it was them yesterday, it's them today in the mirror, | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
and it will be them tomorrow. | 0:29:56 | 0:29:58 | |
But science has yet to determine | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
whether animals with complex cognitive capabilities | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
suffer more, or in fact can adapt well, in captivity. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
SeaWorld have their own view. | 0:30:08 | 0:30:10 | |
With the relative intelligence of cetaceans, | 0:30:11 | 0:30:15 | |
it's actually, I think, what has allowed them to thrive so well | 0:30:15 | 0:30:18 | |
in zoological settings. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:20 | |
And that's because, unlike some species of animals that just want | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
to be by themselves and want nothing to do with humans, | 0:30:24 | 0:30:26 | |
cetaceans clearly work readily with us. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
And that's why we're able to provide such remarkable care for them. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
The welfare of SeaWorld's orcas is under scrutiny like never before. | 0:30:36 | 0:30:42 | |
The California Coastal Commission approved SeaWorld's | 0:30:42 | 0:30:45 | |
multi-million-dollar plan to expand its pools in San Diego. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:49 | |
But only if it stops breeding orcas there. | 0:30:49 | 0:30:53 | |
SeaWorld is challenging the ruling. | 0:30:53 | 0:30:55 | |
Do you envisage a time in the future where, with scientific evidence, | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
you will choose not to keep killer whales in captivity any more? | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
And keep other animals that have been shown to thrive | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
through hard, empirical data? | 0:31:07 | 0:31:10 | |
No. I don't imagine that future, because we know our killer whales | 0:31:10 | 0:31:16 | |
are thriving in the habitats where we keep them now. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
SeaWorld has published a paper showing their orcas | 0:31:21 | 0:31:24 | |
live as long as those in the wild. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:27 | |
Independent scientists are working on rebuttals, | 0:31:27 | 0:31:30 | |
due to concerns about the methodology they used. | 0:31:30 | 0:31:33 | |
We've sort of reached the point where we just conclude as a | 0:31:34 | 0:31:38 | |
society that there are no solid data that they can thrive in captivity. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:42 | |
It's all hand-waving from SeaWorld. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:44 | |
And so, we need to conclude that this isn't appropriate any more. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:47 | |
This is a species that isn't suitable for a zoo life. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:52 | |
Detroit Zoo believes it's found a way to enable | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
its polar bears to thrive, but it's come at a hefty price. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:15 | |
They call it the Arctic Ring of Life - now home | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
to just two polar bears, a male and a female. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
At over 1.6 acres, | 0:32:29 | 0:32:31 | |
this enclosure is more than eight times the size of the old one. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:36 | |
But that's not its only key feature. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:38 | |
-We believe the bears have to have some choices. -Yeah. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
The habitat was designed... There are two separate habitats, | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
so they have opportunities to choose to be with another bear | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
or without another bear. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:49 | |
Choice is an important part of a polar bear's natural behaviour | 0:32:51 | 0:32:55 | |
as it moves around in the wild. | 0:32:55 | 0:32:57 | |
They're making lots of decisions. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
They're choosing where to be based on prey abundance, | 0:33:00 | 0:33:02 | |
mate availability, that kind of thing. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:04 | |
So it could be that really the solution for these animals in zoos | 0:33:04 | 0:33:07 | |
is to allow them to make more decisions, | 0:33:07 | 0:33:09 | |
give them more control, give them more day to day variability. | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
So rather than thinking, oh, no, we have to give them giant enclosures, | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
the solutions could be more imaginative. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:19 | |
-You see how the hill goes up? -Yeah. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:21 | |
For bears, one of their most important senses to them | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
is their sense of smell. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:26 | |
And so there's nothing blocking the wind | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
when they go to the top of the exhibit. | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
According to a 2013 study by three American zoos, | 0:33:32 | 0:33:37 | |
polar bears with stimulating environments and a view out of | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
the enclosure show significantly less stereotypic behaviour. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:44 | |
Detroit Zoo say they see less stereotypic behaviour | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
with their bears here than in their old enclosure. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
This hasn't been quantified yet, but it is encouraging, | 0:33:53 | 0:33:57 | |
considering animals like these are not suitable | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
for release back into the wild. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:02 | |
It's highly unlikely they could survive. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:04 | |
So what can we say about the lives of these polar bears now? | 0:34:04 | 0:34:09 | |
I would say, I believe she has a pretty good life. | 0:34:09 | 0:34:13 | |
That is so subjective. That's just me. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:18 | |
I've known her since she was born and I could be totally wrong. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:22 | |
But I believe she has the things that are meaningful. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:25 | |
This enclosure cost around 16 million to design and build. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
At that kind of price, trying to meet the welfare | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
needs of animals like polar bears forces zoos to make hard choices. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:40 | |
If you want quality, you have to give up on quantity. | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
You can't do every animal. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:46 | |
You can't have a postage stamp collection | 0:34:46 | 0:34:48 | |
and expect to be able to have all the animals thrive. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
The emphasis on animals thriving in captivity, not just surviving, | 0:34:53 | 0:34:57 | |
may sound obvious, but it could revolutionise the zoo world. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:01 | |
If zoos really did put welfare at the very top, | 0:35:05 | 0:35:09 | |
how would zoos be different? | 0:35:09 | 0:35:12 | |
Well, you'd have fewer animals in each zoo. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:18 | |
You'd have fewer species in each zoo. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:22 | |
You'd have species in a climate that is appropriate. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:28 | |
And there's no question in my mind, that's where things are going. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
I think you'll see fewer zoos with polar bears, | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
fewer zoos with elephants, fewer zoos with gorillas. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
And different ones will have different expertise. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:41 | |
And you know, that means that you might have to travel further | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
if you want to go see a particular type of animal. | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
But there's no reason that every city should have a zoo that | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
each one has zebras, giraffes, elephants, rhinos, etc. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:54 | |
Around zoos, the world is changing. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:04 | |
We're living through an unprecedented | 0:36:04 | 0:36:05 | |
mass extinction crisis. | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
The rapid rise of the human population has dramatically | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
reshaped the natural environment, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
destroying habitats at an alarming rate. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
Dr Jane Goodall has seen how the wild has shrunk | 0:36:18 | 0:36:21 | |
since she first studied chimpanzees in Tanzania in 1960. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:27 | |
And, for her, it makes a compelling case for zoos. | 0:36:27 | 0:36:29 | |
If the world is beautiful, | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
and like it was when I went first to Africa, | 0:36:33 | 0:36:36 | |
that's where all chimps should be. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
But it's not. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:40 | |
I've seen so many places where there's logging coming closer, | 0:36:43 | 0:36:47 | |
chimpanzees under threat. | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
And, quite honestly, when you go to a really good zoo | 0:36:51 | 0:36:54 | |
which has a big outside enclosure, then you think, well, | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
actually, if I was a chimp, I'd probably rather be here | 0:36:57 | 0:37:02 | |
than out in all these dangerous situations in the wild. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:05 | |
Because of human impacts, species are disappearing at a rate | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
100 times faster than would be expected. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:15 | |
Zoos are saying that saving animals is their fundamental role. | 0:37:15 | 0:37:19 | |
At about the same time that television and film | 0:37:19 | 0:37:23 | |
were taking over from the simple task that zoos had | 0:37:23 | 0:37:27 | |
of showing you what a polar bear looks like, | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
zoos then changed their direction and said, | 0:37:30 | 0:37:33 | |
we are conservation centres. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
This is our primary purpose, is conservation. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
If we weren't breeding and maintaining animals, | 0:37:39 | 0:37:41 | |
then some of these animals would be | 0:37:41 | 0:37:43 | |
going rapidly extinct in the wild, | 0:37:43 | 0:37:45 | |
and we wouldn't have this ark principle, | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
this repository of animals, to ever put them back. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
This is the role now of zoos. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:52 | |
It's changed radically since the '50s and the '60s, | 0:37:52 | 0:37:55 | |
of just show and tell wild animals. | 0:37:55 | 0:37:57 | |
We are now part of the solution. | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
I don't think this is a sustainable claim for zoos to say that | 0:38:00 | 0:38:05 | |
they're conservation centres. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:07 | |
It's a very thin, slender little column that they've | 0:38:07 | 0:38:11 | |
built for themselves to stand on. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:13 | |
When it comes to breeding endangered species, | 0:38:19 | 0:38:21 | |
zoos have gained vast amounts of expertise and knowledge, | 0:38:21 | 0:38:25 | |
thanks to years of dedication. | 0:38:25 | 0:38:27 | |
Take the effort to save the California condor, | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
one of the world's most endangered birds. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:35 | |
I'm keen to help out, but Mike Clark from LA Zoo has got other ideas. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:41 | |
You don't want me to hold the eggs for you? | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
You're not on the permit, the federal permit to touch the eggs. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
-You have to have a federal permit to handle them? -Oh, yeah. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
In the 1980s, there were just 22 California condors | 0:38:51 | 0:38:55 | |
left in the wild. | 0:38:55 | 0:38:57 | |
The last of the species were brought into a zoo, | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
and the captive breeding programme began. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
So this would be egg LA-10-15. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
Each egg is closely monitored. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:12 | |
-There you go. -Oh, look at that, that's fantastic. Look at that. | 0:39:12 | 0:39:15 | |
As the chicks are reared, contact with zoo keepers is limited. | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
This is a condor hand puppet, something we make right here. | 0:39:26 | 0:39:32 | |
The hand-reared chicks are fed by puppets. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:36 | |
Some birds showed no fear of humans when they were released, | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
so the keepers had to adapt. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
So what would this puppet do, other than just drop the food? | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
The chicks can get kind of rambunctious and become | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
abusive towards the puppet, because there's no consequences. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:51 | |
And so the puppet would actually have to move them away, | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
like, you're not going to do that, that's not the way to behave. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
Over three decades, | 0:39:58 | 0:40:00 | |
zoos have perfected the method of breeding condors. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:03 | |
But successfully reintroducing them into the wild is a much | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
greater challenge. | 0:40:09 | 0:40:11 | |
This is Hopper Mountain, north of Los Angeles, one of the sites | 0:40:13 | 0:40:17 | |
where captive-born condors are released. | 0:40:17 | 0:40:19 | |
I'm with Estelle Sandhaus, a scientist from Santa Barbara Zoo. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:26 | |
'On the other side of this canyon is a historic nesting site, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:37 | |
'if only I could see it!' | 0:40:37 | 0:40:38 | |
Gosh, it's really thrilling to see it. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
God, she's gorgeous, isn't she? | 0:40:49 | 0:40:51 | |
Yeah, she absolutely is. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:53 | |
It's amazing. | 0:40:53 | 0:40:54 | |
These mountains have been turned into a zoo of sorts. | 0:41:00 | 0:41:05 | |
The birds are constantly monitored because, without | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
intensive management, the population would once again collapse. | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
The reason can be found at LA Zoo. | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
'This is 360, a sick condor brought in from the wild.' | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
He's a beaut. | 0:41:25 | 0:41:27 | |
'What happened to him reveals just how much human behaviour is | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
'undermining this reintroduction programme.' | 0:41:33 | 0:41:36 | |
This is a ventral view of the whole body | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
and if you look carefully, you can see a high density object, | 0:41:40 | 0:41:44 | |
that's metal, and that is the piece of lead that was poisoning him. | 0:41:44 | 0:41:48 | |
Across the region, hunters often use lead ammunition, | 0:41:48 | 0:41:52 | |
which shatters inside the animals they hunt. | 0:41:52 | 0:41:55 | |
As scavengers, condors feed on the carcases and can easily be poisoned. | 0:41:55 | 0:42:01 | |
These are additional radiographs of 360 from June of 2010, | 0:42:02 | 0:42:07 | |
June of 2012 and then 2015, like you see here. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:12 | |
So, actually he's been in three times for lead poisoning. | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
How old is he? | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
-Ten. -Ten years old and he's been in three times. -Yeah. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
'360 was lucky. | 0:42:20 | 0:42:22 | |
'Vets removed this latest particle, | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
'but 59 others have died from lead poisoning | 0:42:25 | 0:42:28 | |
'since the reintroduction programme began.' | 0:42:28 | 0:42:30 | |
Look at that wing span. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:33 | |
I mean, there's no question when you see such a spectacular species, | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
of course it should be protected. | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
Of course we can't let it go extinct, | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
but what's the point of releasing it again if all the threats persist? | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
I think that with these birds out here, we are able | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
to capture people's hearts and minds | 0:42:48 | 0:42:51 | |
and really advocate for them and ask folks to change their habits. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:55 | |
After more than 30 years and more than 40 million, | 0:42:58 | 0:43:02 | |
there are now 228 California condors in the wild. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:07 | |
With the California condor, zoos have achieved the near impossible. | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
I mean, it's taken a huge amount of effort and money | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
and intensive, relentless interventions to keep | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
the birds just about alive out here, but the battle they've been fighting | 0:43:20 | 0:43:25 | |
for decades now can't be won without changing human behaviour. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:29 | |
This is not just a job to save the species. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
This is a human problem and we feel like janitors of the human culture. | 0:43:35 | 0:43:41 | |
We're trying to clean this mess up. | 0:43:41 | 0:43:45 | |
Until the culture changes and the lead is out of their food source, | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
me and the people I work with will be treating leads | 0:43:48 | 0:43:50 | |
until we retire, and probably beyond. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:52 | |
When it comes to conservation, British zoos claim that | 0:43:58 | 0:44:02 | |
at least 3% of their expenditure goes towards projects in the field. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
Figures like this are hard to quantify across the zoo world, | 0:44:06 | 0:44:10 | |
but zoos say their conservation role is not just about funding. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:14 | |
We can use animals as ambassadors, we can use them for education | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
and that's really important. | 0:44:19 | 0:44:20 | |
We have half a million people a year seeing these elephants | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
and that's our opportunity to hook them into valuing them, | 0:44:23 | 0:44:26 | |
seeing what they're like for real, smelling them, | 0:44:26 | 0:44:29 | |
which you don't get from the TV, and then valuing wildlife is how | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
we're going to change the future, cos it's this generation | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
of humans that needs to change their behaviour to save the wild. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
The goal of zoos to educate the public about the importance | 0:44:39 | 0:44:43 | |
of conservation is laudable, but so far, | 0:44:43 | 0:44:46 | |
their success has not been scientifically proven. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:50 | |
The claim that seeing elephants in the zoo will turn you | 0:44:50 | 0:44:54 | |
into a conservationist is a completely false claim. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
There's no evidence at all that seeing animals in zoos | 0:44:58 | 0:45:02 | |
changes people's opinion. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
As our cities continue to grow, along with our | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
insatiable consumption of the planet's resources, | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
the destruction of wild habitats is speeding up. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:24 | |
Surveying this seemingly unstoppable tide | 0:45:24 | 0:45:27 | |
is conservation scientist Dr Sarah Bexell. | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
As a veteran of captive breeding programmes, | 0:45:32 | 0:45:34 | |
she has strong personal views. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
I definitely for a long time have been worried that we | 0:45:37 | 0:45:41 | |
are sending the wrong message to the general public, | 0:45:41 | 0:45:44 | |
that you can drive your SUV and you can have as many children | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
as you want. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:49 | |
Don't worry, we'll save a couple of the cute ones for you. | 0:45:49 | 0:45:52 | |
Science is going to save the animals we deem worthy of saving. | 0:45:52 | 0:45:57 | |
For the past 25 years, Sarah has worked on some of | 0:46:02 | 0:46:06 | |
the world's biggest reintroduction programmes - | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
the golden lion tamarin in Brazil, | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
the black-footed ferret in the American West, | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
the giant panda programme in China. | 0:46:15 | 0:46:19 | |
Like others, this project is succeeding in breeding animals, | 0:46:20 | 0:46:24 | |
but struggling to build a self-sustaining population | 0:46:24 | 0:46:27 | |
in the wild. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
Around 400 pandas have been bred in captivity, | 0:46:29 | 0:46:33 | |
but just five have been released and only three survive. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:36 | |
All things considered, a huge amount of money | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
has been spent on the captive breeding programme | 0:46:42 | 0:46:45 | |
for pandas and considering so few, although precious individuals, | 0:46:45 | 0:46:50 | |
have been reintroduced, has it been worth it? | 0:46:50 | 0:46:54 | |
Is it worth it? | 0:46:54 | 0:46:55 | |
Ah. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:00 | |
I mean, we've learned a lot, absolutely. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:06 | |
Filled volumes of journals and textbooks and... | 0:47:06 | 0:47:10 | |
But we have not made significant headway in terms of conservation. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
So, I mean, I guess right now, we would almost have to say | 0:47:15 | 0:47:21 | |
it has been quite a failure and even though many of these projects even | 0:47:21 | 0:47:26 | |
were considered successful for short periods of time, | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
they've lost ground. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:31 | |
And should we continue them? | 0:47:36 | 0:47:39 | |
Right now, I'm feeling no, because I'm really worried that it's | 0:47:39 | 0:47:43 | |
sending the wrong message to humanity. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:47 | |
It's giving humanity false hopes. | 0:47:47 | 0:47:49 | |
Captive breeding appeared to be a conservation panacea, | 0:47:53 | 0:47:57 | |
promising to curb extinctions and replenish the wild. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:00 | |
But as humanity's destruction of habitat gathers pace, | 0:48:00 | 0:48:04 | |
Sarah believes zoos need to level with us | 0:48:04 | 0:48:07 | |
about what saving endangered species would really require. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
I think we need to be brutally honest with the world, | 0:48:13 | 0:48:16 | |
that science is not just going to clean up the mess for you all. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:21 | |
We all have to get behind this, | 0:48:21 | 0:48:23 | |
we all have to be a part of the solution. | 0:48:23 | 0:48:25 | |
Perhaps the most controversial of all zoo breeding programmes | 0:48:29 | 0:48:33 | |
is that of the northern white rhino. | 0:48:33 | 0:48:36 | |
The effort to save this species from extinction began in the mid-1970s | 0:48:36 | 0:48:41 | |
as the persecution of these animals by humans increased dramatically. | 0:48:41 | 0:48:46 | |
No animal is safe from poachers. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:49 | |
There were three more white rhino until a few months ago. | 0:48:49 | 0:48:52 | |
Then poachers butchered them at point blank range | 0:48:52 | 0:48:55 | |
to steal their valuable horns. | 0:48:55 | 0:48:57 | |
As northern white rhinos were relentlessly hunted over decades, | 0:48:59 | 0:49:03 | |
the future of the species came to depend entirely | 0:49:03 | 0:49:07 | |
on the ability of zoos to breed them, | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
and that proved far from easy. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:12 | |
The species is now extinct in the wild | 0:49:14 | 0:49:16 | |
and unravelling the reasons why reveals just how many | 0:49:16 | 0:49:20 | |
aspects of the breeding programme fell short of expectations. | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
This is the Dvur Kralove Zoo in the Czech Republic. | 0:49:28 | 0:49:32 | |
I'm here to see a very special animal. | 0:49:32 | 0:49:36 | |
This is Nabire. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:37 | |
'Nabire is one of the last five northern white rhinos on Earth.' | 0:49:39 | 0:49:45 | |
Can we say hello, with an apple? | 0:49:45 | 0:49:48 | |
Moment. | 0:49:48 | 0:49:50 | |
Little bit back, no. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:52 | |
Yeah, pull everything back. She might chew on my cuff. | 0:49:52 | 0:49:54 | |
-Take it like this. -Just like that? OK, so not flat hand. | 0:49:54 | 0:49:57 | |
-OK, put that inside. -OK, I can put that inside. | 0:49:57 | 0:49:59 | |
I can give you an apple, beauty. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:01 | |
-Oh, OK, here we go. -Perfect. -Here we go. | 0:50:03 | 0:50:08 | |
Ohhh! | 0:50:08 | 0:50:10 | |
HE SPEAKS CZECH | 0:50:10 | 0:50:13 | |
Nabire is of breeding age, but unfortunately she's now infertile. | 0:50:13 | 0:50:18 | |
The history of the captive population is | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
a story of extinction taking place in slow motion. | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
Since 1975, when northern white rhinos were first brought to | 0:50:30 | 0:50:34 | |
this zoo, just four calves had been born in captivity. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:38 | |
For many years, | 0:50:39 | 0:50:41 | |
the zoo didn't know how to maximise the chances of breeding. | 0:50:41 | 0:50:46 | |
We started to understand | 0:50:46 | 0:50:48 | |
if you have, you know, | 0:50:48 | 0:50:49 | |
all the animals at one place for a long time, | 0:50:49 | 0:50:51 | |
it somehow blocks the, let's say, breeding appetites. | 0:50:51 | 0:50:55 | |
As they failed to breed, the female rhinos were becoming infertile. | 0:50:56 | 0:51:01 | |
When there were just two fertile females left, | 0:51:03 | 0:51:06 | |
a decision was made to attempt artificial insemination. | 0:51:06 | 0:51:10 | |
All our hope is on her | 0:51:10 | 0:51:12 | |
and we will try to get her pregnant as soon as possible. | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
But the attempt failed. | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
Failing with the artificial insemination doesn't mean | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
the programme failed. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:23 | |
We were quite optimistic that we would achieve a pregnancy over time, | 0:51:23 | 0:51:27 | |
if we would get full support for such assist reproduction programme. | 0:51:27 | 0:51:33 | |
The zoo devised a new strategy. | 0:51:36 | 0:51:40 | |
The last two fertile females were sent | 0:51:40 | 0:51:43 | |
to the Ol Pejeta Conservancy in Kenya. | 0:51:43 | 0:51:47 | |
It was fully understandable, but it stopped our programme | 0:51:49 | 0:51:53 | |
and, based on the experience we have now, you know, | 0:51:53 | 0:51:58 | |
that was most likely not the right decision. | 0:51:58 | 0:52:01 | |
In Kenya, one female became infertile. | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
The other was too physically weak to breed. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
In 2014, two of the remaining rhinos died in captivity, | 0:52:08 | 0:52:13 | |
leaving a total of just five. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:17 | |
But there might still be a chance to stop the northern white rhino | 0:52:22 | 0:52:26 | |
from disappearing from the planet for ever. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
In California, scientists are trying to achieve in the lab | 0:52:30 | 0:52:34 | |
what hasn't been possible in the zoo. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
In this batch we have boxes of tubes | 0:52:38 | 0:52:41 | |
and this tube here contains stem cells of the northern white rhino. | 0:52:41 | 0:52:46 | |
These stem cells were made from northern white rhino skin. | 0:52:46 | 0:52:50 | |
So they can become any cell of the body? | 0:52:50 | 0:52:53 | |
Any cell of the body. | 0:52:53 | 0:52:55 | |
So in that small sample lies potentially... | 0:52:55 | 0:52:57 | |
More than a million cells. | 0:52:57 | 0:52:59 | |
And the future of the northern white rhino. | 0:52:59 | 0:53:01 | |
-It's as simple as that, really, isn't it? -Absolutely. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:03 | |
It's extraordinary. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:04 | |
Professor Jeanne Loring saw how stem cells could be used to save | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
endangered species. | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
If we can make gametes from those cells, | 0:53:17 | 0:53:19 | |
we can then take the sperm from one animal, an animal that's already | 0:53:19 | 0:53:24 | |
dead, and eggs from another animal and make an entirely new individual. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:29 | |
An embryo would be implanted into a surrogate animal, | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
the closely related southern white rhino. | 0:53:33 | 0:53:37 | |
The contents of this freezer are now part of a new multi-million-dollar | 0:53:39 | 0:53:44 | |
effort to engineer northern white rhinos into existence | 0:53:44 | 0:53:48 | |
within ten years. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:50 | |
Professor Loring and Professor Hildebrandt are working with | 0:53:50 | 0:53:55 | |
San Diego Zoo and Dvur Kralove Zoo on the rescue plan. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:59 | |
The San Diego Zoo put dramatic resources in this rescue programme | 0:53:59 | 0:54:04 | |
which wasn't seen before. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:08 | |
What we hope to achieve is that with this new approach, | 0:54:08 | 0:54:12 | |
we can establish a new population of healthy northern white rhinos | 0:54:12 | 0:54:17 | |
which then can mate natural-wise in the future. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:21 | |
But trying to bring back a species after it has gone extinct | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
is fraught with uncertainty. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:33 | |
SHE EXHALES | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
Despite immense efforts by zoos over decades, | 0:54:37 | 0:54:41 | |
the northern white rhino is slipping away. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:45 | |
It's impossible not to get emotional, | 0:54:47 | 0:54:51 | |
setting eyes on one of the last five remaining northern white rhinos. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:55 | |
The factors that led to the situation are complex | 0:54:58 | 0:55:03 | |
and we have learned from our mistakes | 0:55:03 | 0:55:06 | |
and what we might do differently now, given the chance. | 0:55:06 | 0:55:11 | |
But the hard truth is, we failed this species. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:16 | |
And if we fail with such a charismatic, popular animal... | 0:55:19 | 0:55:23 | |
..then what hope is there for other species, | 0:55:25 | 0:55:29 | |
the thousands of other species that are threatened or endangered? | 0:55:29 | 0:55:34 | |
The public's relationship with zoos has remained intact since this | 0:55:52 | 0:55:56 | |
elephant house opened in Copenhagen Zoo more than a century ago. | 0:55:56 | 0:56:00 | |
But can zoos survive for another century? | 0:56:03 | 0:56:05 | |
As it becomes more and more evident | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
that many of the big animals that are | 0:56:11 | 0:56:13 | |
the standard stars of zoos should not be in captivity for scientific | 0:56:13 | 0:56:19 | |
reasons, that these animals are not thriving and cannot thrive, | 0:56:19 | 0:56:23 | |
I think that the public will react in similar ways to the way they've | 0:56:23 | 0:56:28 | |
reacted to the revelations about what was happening in SeaWorld. | 0:56:28 | 0:56:32 | |
I never even thought that they would go extinct 20 years ago, | 0:56:32 | 0:56:36 | |
but now I'm certain that they will. | 0:56:36 | 0:56:38 | |
There are a lot of people today who say that zoos should shut down. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:44 | |
What do you think? | 0:56:44 | 0:56:45 | |
I think those arguments of zoos being part of a problem | 0:56:45 | 0:56:48 | |
and using animals and having massive welfare issues and not educating | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
the public and not doing conservation, | 0:56:52 | 0:56:55 | |
was true in the '40s, '50s, '60s | 0:56:55 | 0:56:57 | |
and - shame on us - probably in the '70s and early '80s as well. | 0:56:57 | 0:57:01 | |
But genuinely, in the last 10 or 15 years, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:03 | |
the world's changed and a lot of zoos have woken up to that and | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
a lot of zoos are run now by people like me who passionately understand | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
this, understand the arguments and we're trying to make a difference. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:14 | |
Throughout their history, zoos have adapted and grown and changed, | 0:57:19 | 0:57:24 | |
and it's evident in the architecture of any zoo you look at. | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
I mean, this used to be the only enclosure for an adult elephant | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
throughout the winter months back in the '60s. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
Clearly, zoos have moved on. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:39 | |
This is Copenhagen's newest indoor enclosure for elephants, | 0:57:39 | 0:57:42 | |
but are zoos changing enough? | 0:57:42 | 0:57:46 | |
The zoo of the future, you'd have a lot of binoculars around the place, | 0:57:47 | 0:57:51 | |
because your elephants will be right away on the other side | 0:57:51 | 0:57:54 | |
and your chimpanzees would be high in a tree up there, five storeys up. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:59 | |
You'd need your binoculars. That's the kind of zoo. | 0:57:59 | 0:58:02 | |
It's not what you'd call a zoo now. | 0:58:02 | 0:58:04 | |
-RON KAGAN: -There is a bright future | 0:58:05 | 0:58:07 | |
for zoos, as long as zoos are totally committed to | 0:58:07 | 0:58:12 | |
continuing to do research so that we understand what animals need, | 0:58:12 | 0:58:16 | |
and that if we can't meet those needs, that we don't keep them. | 0:58:16 | 0:58:21 | |
So, in light of what the science is now telling us, | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
are zoos willing to reappraise their fundamental roles as zoological | 0:58:25 | 0:58:29 | |
and conservation organisations? | 0:58:29 | 0:58:32 | |
The potential for zoos to educate about how we can interact | 0:58:34 | 0:58:38 | |
with wildlife responsibly is enormous, | 0:58:38 | 0:58:41 | |
but to reach the goal many scientists speak of | 0:58:41 | 0:58:45 | |
would require substantial change. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:48 | |
The question now is how much zoos and we, the public, | 0:58:48 | 0:58:52 | |
want that change to happen. | 0:58:52 | 0:58:53 |