Emms/Garner Heir Hunters

Every year, over 12,000 people pass away without leaving a will, and seemingly with no next of kin.

But, often, there is a distant relative who stands to inherit,

and that's where the Heir Hunters come in.

On today's programme, the Heir Hunters are left

scratching their heads when they struggle to solve a mystery

where a woman has passed away leaving tens of thousands of pounds.

I'm going grey on this case today.

An estranged family come to terms with their mother's secret past,

and discover relatives they never knew existed.

It's unbelievable that somebody can completely guillotine a relative

and have absolutely nothing to do with her.

And we'll have details of some of the hundreds of unclaimed estates.

Could you be in line for a windfall?

In the UK, about two-thirds of people do not have a will,

and therefore leave no record of their last wishes.

If they die and leave an estate and an obvious relative cannot be found,

then the money automatically defaults to the Government,

who last year made £18 million in unclaimed estates.

There are over 12,000 cases of unclaimed estates

in the UK every year, and over 30 companies

make it their business to track down the rightful heirs,

and put them in touch with the fortune they never knew existed.

With so much money at stake, and working for a commission,

it's a lucrative business and, therefore,

competition can be fierce.

It's not going to beat me, I refuse to let it beat me.

Fraser & Fraser have been heir hunting for almost a century,

and have handled over £100 million worth of inheritance

in the last 10 years alone. The team leave no stone unturned

in their search for the heirs to unclaimed fortunes.

It's 7.00am on Thursday morning, and one of the busiest times of the week.

Every Thursday, the Treasury release the Bona Vacantia,

a list of the UK's unclaimed estates.

In the highly competitive probate research business,

it's a race against time to work out which estates are valuable and worth further research.

The team at Fraser & Fraser have directed their attention towards one case in particular.

Company boss, Neil Fraser, is assessing its value.

This is the case of Emms,

Beatrice May Emms, maiden name, Mansell.

In this case we've identified an address, which was a nursing home.

I then had another look at that list again,

identified an older address where she appeared to have moved out,

and it would appear that she does still own the property.

Its not a hugely valuable property in Birmingham,

a building site one side of the road, probably in the £80-90,000 mark.

This estimated value makes the case still worth investigating,

so Alan, one of the team's senior researchers, gets straight to work.

The team have very little information to go on,

so they use census, birth, death and marriage certificates to build a family tree for the deceased.

Going back generations and generations,

the team hope to uncover potential heirs to an estate.

Beatrice May Emms passed away in Birmingham in July, 2009.

She left a house which is estimated to be around £80,000, which means

it could be a relatively lucrative case for the Heir Hunters.

Beatrice married Bertie Emms in 1944, and they had a son, David.

Sadly, Beatrice was widowed in 1977.

David continued to live with his mother, until he too passed away in 2001.

Beatrice worked in the local shop, and could often be seen out

with her beloved corgis and Basset hounds.

When Beatrice's health took a turn for the worst, she was admitted to

a nursing home, where she spent the last eight years of her life.

Senior manager, David Pacifico, thinks he might have enough research

to start putting together an extensive family tree.

It looks like the deceased may have been one of about eight children,

and it's all local. If we're correct about this,

we've got potentially the deceased's birth in Wednesbury,

which is the West Midlands, and her mother's maiden name being Webb.

So we've done a search for Mansell to Web, and we've found

seven or eight other possible siblings to the deceased.

We've now come up with a current address of one of the siblings,

so we could have at least one brother being alive.

I want to go and phone it through.

But, before Dave can pick up the phone, Alan has an update for him.

He's found another marriage of a Beatrice May Emms, which would

give them a much earlier date of birth than they previously thought.

Percy SC Emms...

In 1944. Oh, this is wrong.

I think this is wrong.

Yeah, but if she marries in '44, we've got the wrong birth.

Not too easy, to say the least.

The trouble was there were two Emms married two Mansells.

We got the wrong Emms to Mansell,

which means we got the wrong birth of the deceased.

So we now think we've got the right deceased's marriage, therefore

she's much older than we thought, so she was born around 1919.

So we're now checking on her parentage and brothers and sisters.

Sadly, Dave has been barking up the wrong tree, and all of his hard work so far is now destined for the bin.

Time to start again.

Right, these are the names. Beatrice May Mansell,

we think was born September 1919, in Dudley.

The deceased had a son called David.

He died in 2001.

After a couple of false starts they seem to be back on the right track.

We've got two possible marriages for the deceased's son.

Paul is doing an inquiry,

and I want to brief him up-to-date on this so far.

It's time to call upon the expertise of the travelling heir hunters.

Throughout the UK, Frasers have a team of researchers on standby

who are able to hit the road at a moment's notice.

Their job is to track down vital clues and information on the case,

and, eventually, sign up the rightful heirs.

They have to work fast,

as a rival heir hunting company is never far behind.

Pleased to meet you.

Paul Matthews is based in the Midlands,

so he's the first port of call for Dave who needs to firm up

his speculations on the Beatrice May Emms case.

'We've got some information,'

-it looks like everything seems to be coming out of Dudley.

-Oh, right.

Dave needs Paul to use his local contacts and put in a call to Dudley register office

to find out the details on Beatrice's death certificate.

Although they will need the physical certificate later,

the information conveyed over the phone gives them a head start.

-And the informant?

-'The informant was her niece, Linda Mary Power.'

That's probably a niece on the late husband's side, I would think.

Otherwise, she'd be entitled, wouldn't she?

OK, that's great. Thank you very much for your help.

Paul immediately relays this update back to Dave.

'Good morning, Fraser & Fraser.'

-Paul Matthews after Dave P, please.

-'Thank you.'

-'Hello, Paul.'

-Hello, Dave. Right, got your pen poised?

It's not the outcome Dave expected.

She was born 22/2/1923.

-'1923?'

-Yeah.

Right, the date of birth of the deceased

is not one that we had before. She was born in 1923,

so we've got to start all over again now.

It's 9:30am, and they're back to square one.

Before you know for certain when she's born, there could be several

potential births for the deceased, which we had in this case.

Now we've got the death certificate, it shows the date and place of birth,

which we've looked up and now confirmed it's correct.

So the question now is to confirm her parents

and confirm whether or not they had any other children and so forth.

It has been a frustrating morning, but at least now the team can work from a definite date of birth.

Meanwhile, Paul heads to Beatrice's street.

The neighbours might be able to shed some light on this case.

Sorry to bother you, I'm making some inquiries about the old lady

who used to live next door, Beatrice. Anybody round here who she

used to know well and might be able to help us? Any friends or family?

I've made some inquiries at the neighbours' houses.

The house itself is obviously not occupied.

I found out it is actually owned by the lady.

The neighbour seems to think there's family out at Stetchworth,

a lady called Linda. So at least we've put a value on it,

we know there's a property which is probably worth over £100,000,

so it's an estate which we will look at. OK.

The informant on the death is Linda Powers.

She's Beatrice's niece, but by marriage, and, therefore,

not entitled to the estate. They knew one another well,

especially in the latter part of Beatrice's life.

I've known her since I was a child. I used to go up and have

cups of tea with her, visit her in the shop where she used to work,

so we've always been in Betty's life.

We had her down here for meals, tea, Christmas,

when she was eventually on her own.

She's just always been there in my life.

I've just pulled up outside Birmingham registry office.

Paul's arrived at the Birmingham register office.

It's already 10.00am, so he has no time to waste.

I'm going to get a move on, anyway, because I want to get in there. OK, Dave, cheers, bye.

Any delays give the competition an advantage.

Thank you.

Paul is collecting the birth and marriage certificates of Beatrice.

This is what we've been waiting for. Paul Matthews after Dave P, please.

22nd February, 1923, Beatrice May...

father Bert James Mansell.

The mum was Kathleen May Mansell, formerly Pearce.

Beatrice's parents were

Albert's James Mansell, and Kathleen May Pearce.

Their only daughter, Beatrice, married Bertie Emms,

and they had one son, David.

Knowing that Beatrice was an only child and

David had no children of his own, the team must now look for cousins.

Back at the office, another researcher, Gareth, is brought in to assist Dave.

He gets to work on the information that Paul has just called in.

They've just got the names of the parents of the deceased,

which are Bert James and Kathleen May,

so I'm seeing if I can find a death for them

so we can establish when they were born.

Because it looks like the deceased was an only child,

in which case we need to go back to cousins.

But, so far, I haven't found anything yet.

While Gareth tries one approach, Dave thinks he's found a lead on

the marriage certificate of Beatrice's parents.

One of the interesting things on the marriage is the witness,

which we're looking at. Two witnesses called Grigg,

Richard G Grigg, and a Florence H Grigg.

Possibly could it be a married aunt?

It's Florence H Pearce. The sister of the mother,

who was Florence H Pearce, marries a Richard G Grigg.

I often find that witnesses, very often, are relatives,

and I thought, I'm hoping, it might be a married sister, and it is.

We now need to know if she's got any children.

Gareth's already on to it.

We've done an initial search from that, and it doesn't

look like they have any kids, certainly not in England and Wales.

If it's just the two of them, Florence and Kathleen,

it's going to be a dead side of the tree.

William Walter Pearce married Rose Grimes and they had two daughters,

Kathleen and Florence.

Florence married Richard Grigg, but they had no children.

Beatrice was the daughter of Kathleen,

and after marrying Bertie, they had one son, David.

Although he married Barbara Kelly, they had no children.

This means there are no living relatives

on the maternal side of the tree.

If there are any living heirs, they're on her father's side.

At the moment we're having difficulty trying to identify

the birth of the father and any census on that side.

According to his marriage he's supposed to be born around 1896,

and the Berts or the Alberts that we've found don't match the year

when he's supposed to to be born,

unless he lied about his age on his marriage.

It's not coming out as quickly as I would have hoped.

Later on Heir Hunters, the mystery deepens.

This is unbelievable, how on earth did she register

her mother's death as the widow of Edward Mansell?

You tell me!

Heir hunters can be found all over the UK,

and the search for a rightful beneficiary can take them anywhere.

Celtic Research is run by Peter and Hector Birchwood from their offices in Wales and London,

and their regional case managers work from home.

Phil is an associate genealogist,

and has been working from the peace and quiet of his garden in Wales

for the last few years.

Celtic Research is renowned for solving unsolvable cases.

We don't give up on cases because of the interest, the intrigue,

the buzz of investigation.

I don't ever think that a case is unsolved or unsolvable.

Phil is used to painstaking research, but few cases have tried his patience

and dedication quite as much as that of Nancy Elizabeth Garner.

It has been a 16-year search to find the rightful heirs.

Nancy Elizabeth Garner died in 1991 in Northamptonshire, aged 80,

without leaving a will.

She left behind an estate worth in excess of £50,000.

Nancy married William in 1941.

They had no children, and she outlived her husband.

She was well-known in her local community of Budbrooke,

and was looked upon as a friendly eccentric.

She just arrived here and, at the house there,

which I used to deliver the mail to. She just arrived and that was it.

I don't know where she came from or any of the background.

We assumed that she was Welsh,

because she always retained an accent.

She also went around on a little motorbike,

which was something, for her, really. Very surprising.

But, she was very friendly, always.

You didn't see her with anyone else.

She was always scuttling about on her own.

She was just there, you know? Mrs G.

In the beginning, we get the date of death on each case and, as normal,

we order the death certificate.

From the death certificate on the Nancy Garner case,

we were given a date of birth and her maiden name was Davies.

Unfortunately, after exhausting all inquiries on every record

we could find, she didn't exist.

After such an early setback,

it looked as though this would be an impossible case to solve.

That's until a change in law 10 years later.

The introduction of the Freedom of Information Act

offered Celtic Research a breakthrough in 2007.

We wrote and asked, through the Freedom of Information Act,

for more information on Nancy Elizabeth Davies,

and we got a letter back that showed us that she was actually

born two years earlier in a workhouse, illegitimately,

and we worked from there.

With this new information and a different date of birth,

Phil was able to piece together Nancy's story much more easily.

He soon discovered that Elizabeth Anne Davies

gave birth to her daughter, Nancy,

illegitimately in Pontardawe Workhouse on the 3rd March, 1911.

To find out more, Phil had to travel to the Swansea archives,

where he was granted special permission to search the records

for more clues and to verify what he had been told.

This is the register that confirmed

that we're on the right track in this case.

It mentions that a single woman named Elizabeth Anne Davies

was delivered of a female child.

Which then confirmed that the birth that we had,

3rd March, 1911, was correct.

We had found the child.

In the early part of the century, the workhouse was where people

went when they were unable to support themselves financially.

By the 1830s, the bill for dole, out-relief,

across the country reached epic proportions. The Government decided

that something had to be done. The workhouse had been around for

a while and it was decided that it would become the only option if

you were destitute, and out-relief, dole, was going to be abolished.

By the early 1900s, in one sense,

the physical conditions in the workhouse had actually improved

quite a bit from Oliver Twist and gruel and that picture.

But the thing that hadn't changed is this really great shame

that was attached to the workhouse.

You really had to be desperate to consider going into one.

Maybe the fact that she was illegitimate, the workhouse

was the most appropriate place to go and less publicised.

Records show Nancy's mother returned to the workhouse a second time,

to give birth to another daughter, Frances.

From Phil's research, it seems that the sisters lived in the workhouse

until their mid-teens, until Nancy was offered a way out.

This is the entry where we found on October 15th, 1926,

that she'd been taken to Northampton Hospital by the matron.

There is no mention of her being ill,

so we'd take it that she was taken there for service.

Moving on from 1926, when I looked further,

we find that Frances May Davies was taken to Northampton Hospital

by the matron for service. So she'd gone to join her sister.

Being taken into service meant that the girls left the workhouse

for good and began working as domestic maids.

We took a chance and looked for marriages in Northampton

and we found the rest of the story.

At the register office in Northampton,

Phil uncovered the sisters' marriages.

Nancy's to William Garner and Frances' to Albert Ellis,

and then a second marriage to Csezlaw Gralak.

But did Frances' two marriages produce any children?

If they did, they would be heirs to Nancy's estate.

It's a matter of trying the easiest route first,

which was the Gralak.

Even though Gralak, being an unusual name,

there were a few of them, and I couldn't really pin down

exactly who was who, but I did find, searching on the internet,

this person called John Gralak. I gave him a ring, and he happened

to be the right person, he was the son. I was over the moon.

All the hard work had now panned out, we had actually solved the case.

VIOLIN PLAYS

John Gralak is 52 years old

and a professional musician, living in Manchester.

Phil from Celtic Research contacted me, and said he'd been looking for me

for nearly 10 years, which was a big shock.

And said that I'd possibly got an auntie,

which I obviously never knew anything about.

This auntie was my mother's sister, and in all my upbringing,

she was never, ever mentioned, and I never knew she existed at all,

so, big shock.

Phil's revelations about Frances and his aunt Nancy's upbringing echoed John's own childhood,

and his difficult relationship with his mother.

It was very strict, and everybody knew what

they were supposed to be doing, where they were supposed to be.

Like many of her generation,

the strict institutionalised experience in the workhouse

made it difficult for Frances to later form emotional bonds

with her own children.

I cut myself off totally and I lived on my own, basically,

in a room, when I was young.

I used to go downstairs and get my meals, then I used to go upstairs.

Basically, I was on my own, most of my childhood.

Although John grew up without siblings,

he had vague memories of having a half-brother and sister.

When Phil investigated this, he discovered David and Christine,

Frances' children from her first marriage, to Albert Ellis,

although Frances was just as secretive with her other children

as she was with John,

and never revealed to Christine or David that she had a sister, Nancy.

My mother never mentioned Nancy at all.

I didn't even know I had any aunties.

I am shocked, I still can't get my head round it.

It's really knocked me back,

because I would like to have met her.

To know I've got another part of the family, it would have been nice.

It's unbelievable, that somebody can go through their life

and completely guillotine a relative and have absolutely

nothing to do with her whatsoever. It's astonishing, really.

It seems that Christine's relationship with her mother was as difficult as John's.

When I was quite young my mother and dad divorced.

I don't know how old I was.

She left me and my brother, David, with my dad.

Every now and again we used to go and stop with my mother.

My dad brought me up until I was 16, and David was 17 or 18,

and then I just left there and went over to live with my mother.

She did have a loving personality about her,

but she was very, very strict. When she used to go out shopping,

she used to leave me to do the housework.

If she left my young brother, John, with me, she used to come back

and ask him if I'd had my radio on. If I did, she used to turn

the house upside down and make me clean it again.

I did leave home a couple of times, when I lived with a friend.

Left for about a week at a time, tQhen went back.

But she was really, really strict.

I was really nervous, living with her.

But while her time in the workhouse

had a strong influence on her in later life, amazingly,

Frances never told her children that this was where she had grown up.

I didn't realise my mother was actually brought up in the workhouse.

All I remember is the fact that I knew she was orphaned from birth,

and that she was in domestic service later on in life,

and that's really all I remember.

It could be that's why she was so strict,

because of the life she had when she was younger.

Coming up, John visits a workhouse

to help him understand his mother's secret past.

My mother was tough and I think she had to be, to survive.

I look at it in a very different light now.

For every case that is cracked, there are still many thousands which remain a mystery.

These cases sit on the Treasury's unsolved list, and can remain there for up to 30 years.

The estates can range wildly in value from £5,000, to many millions,

with the rightful heirs completely unaware of the windfall they could claim.

Today, we've got two cases Heir Hunters have so far

failed to solve. Could you have the answer?

Could you be in line to inherit?

Robert Wardle, from Chertsey in Surrey, passed away in May 2006.

To this day, nobody has come forward to claim his estate.

Does this name means something to you?

Can you offer a clue that might solve the case?

Jean Nanette McKenzie, from Rochester, died in Kent in July 2006,

leaving no will, and seemingly with no next of kin.

Could she be a distant relative?

Might you stand to inherit her estate?

It's 11.40am, and it's back to the drawing board at Fraser and Fraser.

The search for heirs to Beatrice May Emms' £80,000 estate is not going to plan.

Paul is in the Birmingham register office, collecting the death certificate of Beatrice's mother,

but rather than offer clues, it only seems to confuse matters.

It's a little bit out on age, but our only a couple of years.

I thought initially it was wrong,

especially when I saw it said the widow of Edward Mansell.

We are looking for Kathleen May Pearce,

who is married to an Albert James.

But the things that proves it is the right person is

our informant is our deceased, Beatrice Emms, of the same address,

so yeah, it is the right death.

So, a bit of a question now about Mr Mansell's actual name.

The team thought Beatrice's father was Albert Mansell,

but Paul has found an Edward Mansell

named on Beatrice's mother's death certificate.

They must be the same man, Beatrice's father,

but he has used two different forenames over his lifetime, Albert and Edward.

Paul wastes no time in calling through to Dave

and updating him on the discovery.

'David Pacifico, I have Paul Matthews for you on 619.'

-Hello, Paul.

-Kathleen May Mansell, widow of Edward Mansell.

Widow of Edward? Why Edward?

-It is right, don't panic.

-I'm going grey on this case today.

And the informant is B M Emms.

This is unbelievable. How on earth did she register her mother's death

as the widow of Edward Mansell?

You tell me!

But the key question is whether Albert and Edward are the same person.

This is a testing situation, and until they get the answer,

they cannot complete a family tree on the father's side.

A lot of hard work, so it's frustrating, not getting anywhere.

Thing is, if we're struggling and it's hard to work up,

it's going to be the same for our rival companies.

Even though we're getting nowhere fast at the moment,

we're plugging away at it, but our competitors

will also be having the same problems, hopefully.

It's not going to beat me. I refuse to let it beat me.

Despite inconsistent names for Beatrice's father on certificates,

all other names and dates are consistent, so the team now

work off the assumption that Bert, Albert and Edward are, in fact,

the same person. They desperately need a date of birth

for Beatrice's father, to secure the family tree.

So far, they've been unable to locate an appropriate date of birth

for an Albert or Edward Mansell, but finally, Gareth has an explanation.

Thanks, bye.

Right. That was Gareth,

telling me he's found a birth entry of an Edward James Mansill,

M-A-N-S-I-L-L, in March quarter 1896 in Birmingham,

which could be the father's birth and therefore, Edward.

So at one time he call himself Bert, another time Edward.

Now it makes more sense.

Hello.

-'Hello, Paul. We may have resolved the birth of the father.'

-Oh, right.

'I've been given details of an Edward James Mansill,

'M-A-N-S-I-L-L, this is where the Edward comes in.'

Oh, right. Yeah, I've got the actual entry,

he's down as Edward J Mansill.

After hours of painstaking research,

the team's confusion over the father's name had hung upon

a spelling mistake on the surname Mansell, made decades ago.

I was tearing my hair out two hours ago.

So much confusion and names changing and all sorts.

Thanks to some good research work, we've been able to

hopefully identify the family now.

With the mystery of Beatrice's father solved,

Dave and Gareth can confidently start the family tree, again.

What does it say on 1911, how many children?

The 1911 census reveals Edward, also known as Albert,

had a brother, Leonard, and a sister, Doris.

Now the team need to see if there were any more siblings

born after 1911. If any of these siblings went on to have children,

they could be potential heirs.

I found what could be another aunt of the deceased,

a Winifred J Mansell. I want to get Paul to check that out.

Meanwhile, we're working on children of an uncle Leonard Mansell.

The team discover three siblings for Edward.

Leonard, Doris and Winifred. Doris died in her early 20s,

but Leonard married Elsie Wedgbury

and Winifred married Alfred Greenock.

Since Leonard and Winifred are now deceased, any subsequent children

they might have would be in line to inherit part of Beatrice's estate.

Good detective work has led Gareth to a potential heir

living in the Midlands.

Hopefully we've got Audrey now.

She's going to be first cousin of the deceased,

and we're going to give her to David, hopefully he'll phone her.

She's in Solihull. Well, hopefully in Solihull, if it's right.

Right. Just going back on this.

'Audrey Dory may still be alive, living in Solihull.'

Oh, right, hang on a second.

She's getting on a bit. She was born in '26.

She's Audrey Dory?

This is coming straight from the horse's mouth.

'If that's right, she's a first cousin,'

hopefully it will be the answer

to a few questions here. Thanks, Paul. Bye.

With this revelation, Paul is straight off to pay Audrey a visit.

The team are hoping she will be able to confirm their findings.

If so, she would be entitled to inherit a share of Beatrice's £80,000 estate.

Paul hopes to sign her up immediately, before any rival companies also track her down.

Tell me what has brought all this to light.

Because somebody's passed away, they haven't made a will,

left a sum of money which is either going to go to the Government...

Or to the family. Yeah. I'm with you.

Which is why, now, we are trying to find out what you know about

your dad's brothers and sisters.

It's not normally this up in the air, whereby we don't know.

I know my dad's sister, her name was Winifred.

-There was a Doris who passed away as a young lady.

-Yes.

-We think there was an Edward or an Albert.

-There was a Bert.

I remember Bert, Uncle Bert, I can remember him.

-Was Bert married?

-Yes, he was married.

Did he have children?

Oh, dear me. No, I couldn't tell you.

You're going back such a long time.

-I know.

-It's amazing, isn't it?

The older you get, the less you catch up there.

Tell us about it, I can't remember now.

But Audrey's memory is still strong.

She had a sister, Joan, and a brother, John.

Joan married Henry and they had one child, who would be an heir.

John married Barbara

and they too had one child, who also stands to inherit.

Winifred had children also, who could be heirs.

As well as confirming the team's research on the family,

she can recall an uncle Stanley. He married Beryl,

but did he have children, and could there be more heirs to chase?

Frasers are very keen to sign them up as soon as possible.

Isn't it amazing, the way you can go so far back and find out?

There's no hiding place, is there?

Well, no.

I hope it all works out OK, cos you might get a few bob out of this.

Oh, well, that'd be interesting.

The team have managed to contact Audrey's cousin Margaret, another potential heir.

As the day is drawing to a close, they have arranged to meet her the next morning.

16. 14.

As she's based near Bradford, local travelling heir hunter Dave Mansell

is able to pay her visit, and potentially sign her up.

I'm going to just go through your family in order,

so that we tie you to the deceased. What is your full name?

Margaret Valerie Griffith.

Your mum's siblings, your aunts and uncles.

I want you to tell me about them now.

There was Bert and Leonard who, I think,

were in their twenties when my mother was born.

So my mother was brought up with her nephews and nieces.

We've got the right one. It was Edward James Mansell,

otherwise Albert James Mansell, otherwise Bert James Mansell.

THEY LAUGH

It's coming out. But we never knew anything about him or his family.

Well, maybe, that's why if he's changed his name.

But there was my Uncle Len

and my Auntie Elsie that we used to visit...

So no details about him?

None whatsoever. My mother never talked about him. Which is odd.

Well, there'll be a reason.

-Yes.

-There always is.

-Oh, yes. Yes.

-What about Doris?

-Doris died, I think, when she was a child.

Well, she was 24.

Well, there you go, you see.

Margaret has been able to complete the tree.

She has confirmed the team's findings

but also been able to account for Stanley's children

who will also be heirs to Beatrice's estate.

-Lovely to have met you.

-Thank you for coming.

-Pleasure.

-It's been interesting.

-Bye.

It's been a worthwhile visit for Dave.

The company will help Margaret submit her claim to part of Beatrice's estate.

It's something that you don't expect especially when it's

so close in the family. Although my mother always said

there was somebody in the cupboard somewhere.

The research was a proper piece of detective work

and it's good when that comes together.

We're the first people to contact all the beneficiaries

and from there we've got all the agreements in.

I think there's eight beneficiaries in total

and they're split between the three stems.

So I'm pretty pleased with the outcome.

Earlier, we were looking into the case of Nancy Elizabeth Garner.

Phil, at Celtic Research, revealed to Nancy's niece and nephews

that their mother and aunt were brought up in a Welsh workhouse.

Maybe that was why she was so strict.

Because of the life she had when she were younger.

To help him empathise better with his mother's upbringing,

John has come to the Rochdale Workhouse to meet historian, Peter Higginbotham.

-Hello, John.

-Hello, Peter.

-It's a grim old place we've found ourselves today.

-We certainly have.

It's the Rochdale Workhouse and I think it's on the way

to being closed down but it's really a grim building.

I can't imagine what it would have been like here 100 years ago.

It's really quite depressing, I think.

Why were the workhouses here, then?

-And why were people put into the workhouses?

-A very good question.

The first thing to say is that people weren't put into workhouses.

It's probably true to say people resorted to the workhouse

when they had no other option.

There was no National Health Service.

The only option you had if you needed medical care

was the workhouse infirmary. And a particular group of people

who came to use the workhouse infirmary were pregnant women.

Poor pregnant women.

My mother was born in the workhouse and spent...

What sort of life would she have had?

If you were born in the workhouse, then I guess we would probably say

you became institutionalised from quite an early age.

For children, there was at least three hours of school a day

that was required by the regulations.

Most workhouses also gave what was called industrial training.

Things like agricultural work, shoe-making, carpentry, plumbing.

My mother went into domestics,

-scrubbing floors and obviously was...

-If you were a girl,

a teenage girl in the workhouse, that would be the most likely

-place that you would end up.

-Right.

We've dug up some pictures of the Pontardawe Workhouse.

As you can see, it's on a rather smaller scale than this place.

Where would my mother have been in this building?

There would have been a women's half and a men's half.

I'm not sure which one was which in Pontardawe.

The way you can always tell is where the laundry was

so if you pin down the laundry, that was the women's side.

The women did the laundry work. There would have been a subsection

for elderly women and a subsection for able-bodied women.

It's a very institutional sort of style.

As you can see, these dividing walls cutting up the grounds.

Real segregation, wasn't it?

Yes. Workhouses were machines for segregating people.

That's the main essence of a workhouse design.

Compartmentalise people.

Emotionally, how do you think people were affected by being

in the workhouse because my own feeling is that, I don't know,

I think my mother was probably emotionally... crippled.

I don't think, on the whole, there was much affection shown

for children in the workhouse. Even the quite caring staff.

It was probably seen as unfair,

actually, for teachers and for the matron to have favourites.

If you broke the rules, you would have a spell on bread and water

or in a cell, a refractory cell, it was called, for 24 hours.

So you probably want to keep on the straight and narrow on the whole

unless you were a bit of a rebel.

Certainly, emotionally, I think people lacked affection which

I think we'd all say these days was the key thing in making people

emotionally mature and developed.

It's interesting, at the very end of her life, she was going blind

and we tried to get her into a home and she fought tooth and nail

that she would not be removed and it's just dawned on me,

there was no way she was going back into an institution.

-Yes.

-She ended up dying in the house.

It's an awful lot to take in and digest and it just goes to show

that the backgrounds that our parents have shape us

as the people that we are.

And my mother was... was tough.

And I think she had to be to survive what she survived.

And I'll look at it in a very different light now.

I think there was quite a... taint is probably a word

that is sometimes used about having been in the workhouse.

You really came from the gutter.

I think that was the view a lot of people would have had.

So having been in the workhouse carried a stigma, really,

that for many people would last for the rest of their lives

and would not be mentioned to anybody.

Certainly not family members. And it was really a burden

for people to carry that for the rest of their lives.

The emotional barriers felt between Frances and her family still remain today.

But there is hope that things will finally change.

I think considering what my mother probably had been through

is an awful lot to take on-board and will be very painful, I think.

I'm leaving it open-ended.

I'm going to reflect on everything and see where that takes me.

You know, if he wanted to come over here and see me or meet me somewhere,

I would like to see him again.

He is my brother.

If you would like advice about building your family tree or making a will, go to bbc.co.uk.

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