24/11/2011 GMT with George Alagiah


24/11/2011

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The eurozone's big three - Germany, France and Italy - meet in yet

:00:11.:00:15.

another bid to find an answer to the eurozone crisis. New man on the

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block, Italy's Mario Monti, could be caught in the middle as the

:00:19.:00:29.
:00:29.:00:37.

Germans and French argue over the Hello and welcome to GMT. I'm

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George Alagiah with a world of news and opinion. Also in the programme:

:00:41.:00:45.

Sienna Miller tells an inquiry about UK media ethics had the

:00:45.:00:52.

paparazzi affected her life. For a number of years, I was relentlessly

:00:52.:00:59.

pursued by about 10 to 15 men, almost daily. A truce after five

:00:59.:01:02.

days of clashes in Egypt - the ruling Military Council issues an

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It's half-past 12 here in London, half past two in Cairo and have put

:01:11.:01:14.

one in the French city of Strasbourg, the venue of the latest

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in a long line of meetings aimed at finding an answer to the eurozone

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greatest. -- eurozone crisis. It is Mario Monti's first as Italy's

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Prime Minister. Signor Monti could be caught in the crossfire, if it

:01:36.:01:40.

can be believed that France and Germany are clashing over the role

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of the European Central Bank. There are plenty of urgent issues to

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resolve between France and Germany, and they are joined by Mario Monti.

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The message they want to send to the markets - the eurozone's third

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largest economy, too big to fail but too big to bail, is back in

:01:57.:02:03.

safe hands. But can Mr Monti, a respected academic economist, also

:02:03.:02:07.

play a role in mediating between France and Germany? As efforts to

:02:07.:02:12.

find a way out of the crisis seems stuck in the mud. France still

:02:12.:02:15.

wants Germany to change its mind and allow the European Central Bank

:02:15.:02:20.

to guarantee the debts of any country which runs into trouble.

:02:20.:02:30.
:02:30.:02:34.

The fundamentals are solid, but the But there is little sign of Germany

:02:34.:02:38.

or the ECB itself changed its position. The bank is not there to

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print money. But how much of a jolt did Germany feel yesterday when its

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debt agency had to do retain nearly 40% of an auction of German bonds

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because of a lack of demand? Some analysts believe pressure on Berlin

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could be building. And another idea it has rejected so far - Eurobond

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issued jointly by all eurozone countries. It will certainly be

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discussed by the three leaders in Strasbourg.

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I think that today's meeting will move us closer to Europe, rather

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than distancing us. The German government is no longer ruling out

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euro bonds. Germany, of course, has its own ideas, including far-

:03:23.:03:27.

reaching treaty changes to make the rules which govern the eurozone

:03:27.:03:31.

much tougher. That will have to be part of any grand bargain which

:03:31.:03:41.
:03:41.:03:43.

emerges. And it really does feel Joining me from Brussels is Thomas

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Klau from the European Council on Foreign Relations. Thank you for

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being with me on GMT. Do we call this a three-way meeting, or a two

:03:54.:04:00.

way meeting with Mario Monti on the side? I think it is fair to call it

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a three-way meeting. It is significant that for the first time

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the Italian leader has been asked to participate in what is an

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important meeting, bringing the German Chancellor and the French

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President together. And it is a sign of the respect with which

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Mario Monti is held, and the necessity to ensure that Italy

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continues on its reform course. Mario Monti is a heavyweight, an

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academic economist and also a former European Commissioner with

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long-standing experience of the workings of eurozone governments.

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He is a man of ideas, and both the French and German leaders will

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listen to him. I accept that he has got novelty value and a track

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record, but he is basically part of the problem, or his country is. And

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as we heard from Chris Morris there, it is the Germans and French that

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have got to work out what they do, not least on the European Central

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Bank. Absolutely. I think there is also a

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time when leaders and particularly the French and German leader, I

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genuinely looking for a convincing and plausible plans. Angela Merkel

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said herself in a recent press conference that one of the problems

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for her is that she gets conflicting advice. Mario Monti has

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not only the Italian leader, and are therefore the new leader of a

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country in trouble in many ways, he is also one of the most widely

:05:27.:05:32.

respected analysts and thinkers in terms of how to manage the eurozone

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better. So I think there is also an important meeting here in that

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respect. They have now and your partner to discuss major issues.

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Germany is really between a rock and a hard place. It could cost a

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lot, a helluva lot, if the eurozone fails, but if the eurozone fails,

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but it could also cost a lot if it went the way that the other

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countries are suggesting. This could far outweigh the cost of

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whatever is needed to rescue him the eurozone from collapse. Germany

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is still resisting a more massive engagement but something like the

:06:24.:06:34.
:06:34.:06:34.

eurobond, but to some extent, that resistance is tactical. In the last

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instance, it can decide on its own how to respond to the crisis in

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terms of how it manages bond purchases and its monetary policy,

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although Germany's backing is important. Angela Merkel has not

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said it never on the eurobond. She is partly using her stance to

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extract more from her partner's in terms of the exchange. Thomas Klau,

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thank you. Dr Constantine de Ejiofor is head of research at

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Swiss based asset manager. What do you think is at stake at this

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three-way meeting in Strasbourg? think the three-way meeting itself

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could be yet another exercise in trying to devise a solution which

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is really masking the actual issues the eurozone is facing. So I don't

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expect much to come out of this. There will be discussion of the

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eurozone, and discussion of participation. None of these issues

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will resolve the problems the eurozone is facing. You say neither

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of these issues will? Why not? problem we are trying to address is

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not the real problem faced by the eurozone. The problem of the

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eurozone is it is just not collectively the debt of the member

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states, it is the overhang of debt on the economies of the eurozone at

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large. By that measure, France is completely insolvent when you

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factor in all of the debts that the economy is carrying in terms of

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household debts, corporate debts and the banking sector debt.

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Germany is partly insolvent, and all of the rest of the eurozone are

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pretty much in the insolvency been as well. So if you think the

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solutions we have been talking about up until now, for example

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greater intervention from the ECB, if you don't think those are the

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solutions are the problem is something else, what do you think

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should happen? What should be happening is a restructuring of the

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debt. We should be restructuring the debts of the banks and the

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household. Fortunately, we cannot restructure the debt of the

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corporate sector, and we shouldn't be restructuring Government --

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government debts in the first place. Then we have to go about resolving

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the problem of the insolvent governments. The problem is

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somewhat linked to the problem of the banks, but it is also

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Independent on its own. The euro- zone does not have great capacity,

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and it doesn't have growth policies or institutions in place which

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would be able to allow it to get out of what it is in. Thank you

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very much for being with us. Let's take a look at some of the

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other stories making headlines: Egypt's ruling military has

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apologised for the deaths of protesters in clashes with police

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as unrest in Cairo and other cities and enters its 6th day. Thousands

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of protesters are still in Tahir Square. They are demanding an

:09:45.:09:50.

immediate end to military rule. Egypt's Military Council insists

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parliamentary elections will go ahead as planned on Monday.

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The State Of Egypt, four days of -- ahead of what should have been a

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pram for democracy. Barbed wire surrounds the Interior Ministry.

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Troops are on the streets. Overnight, there was the latest in

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a series of truces between police and protesters. But no one is

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optimistic it will hold. There are still huge crowds in Tahir Square.

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On state TV, two generals appear. For the first time, they offered an

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apology for the deaths of protesters. They insisted they were

:10:30.:10:38.

not like the former regime. They did not want to hold on to power.

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But in other cities, they sent the tanks out in the night as

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demonstrations continued to spread to many cities across Egypt. The

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opposition claimed that live fire is now being used against them. The

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army firmly deny they have shot any protesters. The military stay there

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are still determined to press ahead -- saying they are still determined

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to press ahead with elections on Monday. The crowds do not trust the

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military version of democracy. They want the general standard a

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complete power to a civilian Council immediately. Egypt is

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increasingly paralysed. This could be a long stand-off.

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The leaders of Hamas and Fatah could -- call themselves the head

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of a new partnership. Talks between Mark Kermode and bass and Khaled

:11:33.:11:43.

Meshaal come after previous talks fail to achieve anything. The

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Islamists of Hamas Govan in Gaza. Israel, which regards Hamas as a

:11:48.:11:52.

terrorist group, strongly opposes Palestinian reconciliation. Iraq's

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foreign minister has said that Syria has agreed to a protocol to

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send an Arab League monitoring mission to the country. The

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decision was made at the foreign ministers' meeting of the league

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which is being held in Cairo. Syria was suspended from the Organisation

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last week. The meeting has been moved from Arab League headquarters

:12:09.:12:15.

because of protests in Tahir Square. In Portugal, a general strike is

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being held in protest at austerity measures being introduced their

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following an international bail-out. Public transport, schools and

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hospitals are among the areas expected to be affected during the

:12:27.:12:32.

24 hour stoppage. Emperor Akihito of Japan has been released from a

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Tokyo hospital after more than two weeks. The 77-year-old monarch was

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admitted after suffering from a high fever, and was believed to

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have bronchial pneumonia. He has endured bad health in recent years

:12:44.:12:50.

and cut back on official duties. The actor's Sienna Miller has been

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telling an inquiry into the ethics of the British press about how she

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has been hounded by journalists and photographers. She was one of the

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most high-profile victims of the so-called phone hacking scandal

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here in Britain, and is what among a number of people who have

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suffered from press intrusion. She is talking to the press inquiry --

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Leveson Inquiry this week. Other witnesses include Max Mosley and JK

:13:16.:13:20.

Rowling. Sienna Miller told the inquiry about the newspaper's

:13:20.:13:25.

tactics. I actually now have an order against paparazzi, so my life

:13:26.:13:30.

has changed dramatically, but far number of years, I was relentlessly

:13:30.:13:38.

pursued by about 10 to 15 men, almost daily. Anything from being

:13:38.:13:45.

spat at or verbally abused. I think that the incentive is to get as

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stronger reaction as possible, so as other people have mentioned,

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being jumped out at so that you get a shock, or saying things to get an

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emotional reaction. They seem to go to any lengths to try to upset you,

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which was really difficult to deal with. Ross Hawkins is following

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today's proceedings at the High Court in London. I gave a brief

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explanation of what these hearings are about. Could you give a little

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bit of background for our viewers around the world?

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In essence, the judge is leading an inquiry here to try to work out if

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there is a better way to run and regulate the British media that has

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been riven by scandal in the last few years as it has emerged that

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some journalists, particularly on one paper, the News of the World, a

:14:31.:14:36.

paper now closed, had got stories by hacking into the voice mails of

:14:36.:14:39.

people's mobile phones. And in doing that, they have heard from

:14:39.:14:43.

some very high-profile people like the actress Sienna Miller. At the

:14:43.:14:47.

moment they are hearing from former motor Sport boss Max Mosley. They

:14:47.:14:51.

are talking not just about photographers misbehaving, but

:14:51.:14:56.

privacy. Max Mosley is making the case that years after a piece about

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his sex life was published in the News of the World, he is still

:14:59.:15:03.

fighting court actions in 22 or 23 countries around the world to close

:15:03.:15:07.

down stories and websites. And at the heart of this is that

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for a question of how you regulate the press. It is a thorny question

:15:11.:15:20.

If taught extent to lead us to buy something because you say it in the

:15:20.:15:24.

public interest? It's a defence of British journalists in other cases

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and in others, it's not. We've heard from many Seventies and

:15:28.:15:32.

victims of crimes saying there must be much tighter rules are -- from

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celebrities. Of course, journalists here say if you bring that in, you

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could end up with a celebrity chatter, when all we hear from

:15:41.:15:48.

famous people is what they want us to hear when they are selling a

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film or book -- Charter. Still to come on GMT: Coming up we have a

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special report by the BBC's Angus Crawford, on the future of Afghan

:15:58.:16:03.

children, who have failed in the their asylum claims to Britain.

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First though let's get all the business news. I've been spending a

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lot of time talking about the eurozone. One thing I want to pick

:16:14.:16:19.

up with you, it looks as if even Germany is now beginning to pay a

:16:19.:16:25.

price. I think it's safe to say that this crisis is running out of

:16:25.:16:29.

road of. The leading financial experts to talk to say we have

:16:29.:16:33.

reached the end game, not so much the end but a moment of truth where

:16:33.:16:36.

we either take a leap forward all we face the break-up of the

:16:36.:16:42.

eurozone. Global markets are turning their back on Europe. We

:16:42.:16:45.

are seeing large selling volumes out of Asia and the US on all

:16:45.:16:51.

things Europe. We have to remember, back in September, world leaders

:16:51.:16:57.

gave Europe six weeks to save the euro. In effect, so did the markets.

:16:57.:17:02.

Two options, either break up the eurozone or the ECB step sin in a

:17:02.:17:05.

big way. Some believe the EC be stepping in won't save it. Listen

:17:05.:17:13.

to this. I'm afraid we are getting to the situation, even if the ECB

:17:13.:17:16.

was to step in, which I think is very unlikely because of German

:17:16.:17:22.

resistance, even if it stepped in with unlimited buying, I think this

:17:22.:17:28.

stage we have got to now, in the global market place, is shying away

:17:28.:17:31.

from the euro because they are fed up with the dithering and

:17:31.:17:36.

uncertainty. I'm not even sure that would save the situation. So that's

:17:36.:17:42.

all right then. Talk about doom and gloom. The backdrop to this is

:17:42.:17:46.

where is growth going to come from? Retail figures coming out of

:17:46.:17:52.

Britain suggest it's not happening here. UK retailers are taking a

:17:52.:17:57.

hammering and have for some time. Consumers are hanging on to their

:17:57.:18:04.

money. Arcadia, the owner of big high-street shops, their profits

:18:04.:18:12.

slumped nearly 14%. It blames the weather. Warm weather meant less

:18:12.:18:18.

people in their winter collections. We spoke to Philip Green and ask

:18:18.:18:23.

them how to have it's going to get. It's going to be tough landscape

:18:23.:18:28.

for quite a period of time for the very competitive. We are going to

:18:28.:18:35.

have to be better than we've been before. There's nowhere to hide. We

:18:35.:18:44.

have got to hope fleecy the economy Let's have a quick look at the

:18:44.:18:50.

markets. Don't be fooled, they are up. Lots of bargain hunting going

:18:51.:18:58.

on, George, at the moment, but we Thank you very much. This is going

:18:58.:19:03.

to run and run and run, the story. And you can read much more on the

:19:03.:19:06.

eurozone debt crisis on the BBC website. You know the address,

:19:06.:19:16.
:19:16.:19:23.

because I have forgotten it, This is GMT. The headlines. Italy's

:19:23.:19:26.

new prime minister joins talks on the eurozone debt crisis, amid

:19:26.:19:28.

sharp differences between France and Germany. Egypt's ruling

:19:28.:19:30.

military council has said parliamentary elections will go

:19:30.:19:36.

ahead as planned on Monday. Earlier the generals apologised for the

:19:36.:19:44.

deaths of protesters. The BBC has learned that Britain

:19:44.:19:46.

and three other European countries may start sending Afghan children,

:19:46.:19:49.

who have failed in their asylum claims, back to Kabul next year.

:19:49.:19:52.

But refugee groups have warned that the whole policy could be unlawful,

:19:52.:19:58.

because young people risk ending up in orphanages in a war zone. The

:19:58.:20:00.

British government insists the changes will only affect 16 and 17

:20:00.:20:03.

year-olds whose families can be traced. The BBC's Angus Crawford

:20:03.:20:12.

has been talking to one young man On the streets of London, far from

:20:12.:20:17.

home, this man feel safe. In Afghanistan, the Taliban tortured

:20:17.:20:21.

his father, cutting off his arm as punishment. The family lived in

:20:21.:20:25.

fear. Three years ago, when he was just 14, he was smuggled a loan to

:20:25.:20:31.

the UK. And he claimed asylum. What would happen to you if you were

:20:31.:20:36.

sent back home? TRANSLATION: If I go back to my

:20:36.:20:39.

village, I would have to hide and after a few days, the Taliban would

:20:39.:20:43.

find out I was there and either they would kill me or forced me to

:20:43.:20:49.

be a suicide bomber force of blow myself up somewhere. But we have

:20:49.:20:51.

learned the Home Office has teamed up with a government of Norway,

:20:51.:20:58.

Sweden, and Holland, to find a way of sending 16 and 17 year-olds

:20:58.:21:02.

whose asylum claims have failed, back to Afghanistan. The returns

:21:02.:21:09.

could begin as soon as next year. In September, suicide bombers

:21:09.:21:14.

attack the US embassy. European refugee groups warned the policy

:21:14.:21:18.

would mean returning of vulnerable children to a war-zone. The Afghan

:21:18.:21:21.

government opposes the move and says there's no adequate child

:21:22.:21:25.

protection system. Despite billions of pounds of aid being poured into

:21:25.:21:30.

the country, more Afghan children seek asylum in the UK than any

:21:30.:21:34.

other nationality. The Home Office says there has been no final

:21:34.:21:37.

decision on starting the turns and says it will only happen if

:21:37.:21:43.

families can be located at or arrangements for care are in place.

:21:43.:21:47.

As for this man, he is in limbo, too scared to go home and terrified

:21:47.:21:54.

that Britain may decide he is no longer welcome.

:21:54.:21:57.

The Home office insists that no final decision on returning Afghan

:21:57.:22:02.

children has yet been taken. A spokesman told this programme

:22:02.:22:05.

repatriation will only occur if families can be located or

:22:05.:22:11.

appropriate support and care arrangements are in place. Joining

:22:11.:22:14.

us now from our studio in central London, is Shoaib Sharifi, an

:22:14.:22:16.

Afghan journalist who has travelled the people-smugglers' route from

:22:16.:22:23.

Afghanistan to the UK. Thank you for being with us. What other

:22:23.:22:29.

chances, do you think, the British Government has of finding the

:22:30.:22:33.

families of these people they want to send back, and ensuring they do

:22:33.:22:38.

go back to somewhere that is safe insecure? I think that will be

:22:38.:22:44.

quite challenging. And almost impossible, because it's not like a

:22:44.:22:48.

couple of months journey. Some of these children have left

:22:48.:22:57.

Afghanistan at the age of 12. During the journey, I have been

:22:57.:23:01.

talking to them from Afghanistan or the way to France. I come across

:23:01.:23:06.

children who left at an age of 11 and 12, and some of them were with

:23:06.:23:12.

family members and on their way lost their family members. Three or

:23:12.:23:16.

four years on this journey until they make it to Britain. They

:23:16.:23:21.

hardly remember anything about Afghanistan for the the other issue

:23:21.:23:26.

is, they don't want to go back to Afghanistan. They don't want to see

:23:26.:23:31.

their families. The chances are, I met some children, who tried for a

:23:31.:23:34.

second and third time when they were deported, in the other

:23:34.:23:41.

countries, they don't want to go back to their families because they

:23:41.:23:47.

know how severe the situation is. Is it right, to make the assumption,

:23:47.:23:51.

that at least some of these children, perhaps the majority,

:23:51.:23:55.

their families, if they can find them at all, they would be in areas

:23:55.:24:02.

controlled by the Taliban now? actually, there are many areas in

:24:02.:24:05.

Afghanistan which under the control of the Afghan government but

:24:05.:24:13.

influenced by the Taliban. It's not only the Taliban. Also right now,

:24:13.:24:17.

there is a demand in the exploitation market for children

:24:17.:24:24.

like them by drug smugglers and the Taliban and, astonishingly, we have

:24:24.:24:33.

seen many young children being exploited by drug smugglers to take

:24:33.:24:39.

drugs to the borders of Afghanistan. We have seen a shocking rates of

:24:39.:24:45.

suicide bombers, children. There is a high chance of them being

:24:45.:24:52.

exploited. If they are taken back to Afghanistan. Equally, the

:24:52.:24:56.

British Government and European governments says there must, point

:24:56.:25:02.

when the responsibility for these children, teenagers now, obviously,

:25:02.:25:06.

the responsibility reverts back to Afghanistan. It's only a couple of

:25:06.:25:11.

years away from British troops leaving their altogether. Actually,

:25:11.:25:16.

the route to the problem should be addressed. The couple is the home

:25:16.:25:23.

of thousands of street children, and child labour is a high rate, so

:25:23.:25:33.
:25:33.:25:33.

if the Afghan government exploit hundreds of children into becoming

:25:33.:25:37.

drug smugglers, they should see why children are leaving and address

:25:38.:25:42.

the root of the problem and that the number one, unemployment. If

:25:42.:25:45.

that is addressed, by the International Committee and the

:25:45.:25:50.

Afghan government, I think that is the solution in the longer term,

:25:50.:25:55.

otherwise it's impossible to stop. Thank you for being on GMT. Now

:25:55.:26:03.

here's something that sounds like it's straight out of a film.

:26:04.:26:06.

Australian police are trying to solve the mystery after a lot of

:26:07.:26:09.

dough was left in a pizza restaurant, if you'll pardon the

:26:09.:26:13.

pun! It seems a man left a suitcase at Cafe Marco in a suburb of Sydney,

:26:13.:26:15.

which had a million Australian dollars stuffed inside. There's

:26:16.:26:19.

been an arrest but it's still not clear if it's the person who left

:26:19.:26:22.

the money behind. We're coming to the end of GMT. Before we go, a

:26:23.:26:26.

reminder of our main story. Leaders of the three biggest eurozone

:26:26.:26:29.

economies are holding emergency debt talks. The French president

:26:29.:26:31.

Nicolas Sarkozy is urging his German counterpart Angela Merkel to

:26:31.:26:34.

abandon her refusal to allow the European Central Bank to become a

:26:34.:26:40.

lender of last resort. Today's mini-summit takes place in the

:26:40.:26:43.

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