Debate Preview Scotland Decides

Welcome to historic Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum `

Is one of Scotland's big tourist attractions it pulls in something

like a million visitors a year. Here in the West End of Glasgow, a

magnificent sound so don't `` Nickerson sandstone construction. A

few hundred in fighting guests will listen to the big debate. Alex

Salmond has 90 minutes to persuade the people of Scotland, the voters

of Scotland off his vision of an independent Scotland. Alistair

Darling has 90 minutes to persuade voters that we are better together

within the United Kingdom. The debate begins at 8:30pm. Let's go

inside Kelvingrove Museum now to the media room and Lorna Gordon, who

will set the scene for us. The great and the good of Scottish media are

assembling here in the media room, sometimes called the spin room, and

will watch that debate closely. Some may declare afterwards who they

think is one. With me as Andy Nichol, the Scottish political

editor of the Sun. What type of wings to your readers want to hit

tonight? We have a diverse range of readers. The most important reader

is Mrs Nichol and last she said to me she was fact that Alex Salmond

went off on a weird tangent, he didn't seem to be taking it

seriously. He has to be warm on this occasion. Her view was that Alex

Salmond 's didn't have too bad night but we should have expected more

from him. Your paper was neutral after the debate. It said stalemate

but Scotland number wise. Scotland was not the wiser. The polls seem to

support the decision that we took. The undecided on both sides that

people have to reach out to have been shaken but not stirred. Things

have slightly moved towards the yes campaign. The problem is that the

group of undecideds is getting smaller. The Sunday Herald has

declared in favour of the yes vote, will your paper come out in favour

any point? That is a decision above my pay grade. That debate gets

underway in just under an hour 's time. Lots of activity on social

media. A couple of tweets here. You can watch this debate on

television, watch it online and take part using the hashtag on social

media. Lorna, thanks to now. We will be join you in the media room or as

the media are calling it the spin room. Polling so far has been fairly

constant. We've been looking at the what Scotland thinks poll which

suggests that the yes vote is about 43%, and the no vote is about 57%

but that is if you exclude the people who don't know and tonight is

about the people who don't know. When you talk to yes campaigners in

particular, they say when they knock on doors they ask somebody from 1`10

how strongly I you in favour of Scottish independence? If people say

nine or ten like the lady dancing around behind me, they don't bother

knocking on the door again. If they say one or two they are not that

interested. If they say four, five or six we are in the middle. We are

not quite sure. Those are the people who they are trying to appeal to

delight, as Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling. To talk me through

some of the finer points of what is going on I am joined by two leading

Scottish commentators, Ruth Wishart, who is firmly of the yes

camp I believe and Alex Massie, who has been making the case for better

together, that the United Kingdom is better together, more or less.

LAUGHTER Ball less, yes. With some

reservations. We will come to their in a moment dash more or less. Let

your mind ourselves of who the two participants in this debate really

are. If he leads the yes campaign to Victor Riu it will be the pinnacle

of Alex Salmond's political career and the fulfilment of a light on

dash of a lifelong ambition. Even if they remain together, he will become

one of the most influence of figures in Scottish politics over the last

hundred years. Born in Linlithgow in 1954 he studied economics and

medieval history at St Andrews University. He became involved in

student politics there, joining the Scottish National party at a time

when it was a minority party largely of fringe politics and protest

votes. He worked for Scotland's Department of agriculture and

fisheries and then became an oil economist at The Royal Bank of

Scotland, although politically he was always of the left, a socialist

and a Republican. In 1987 he became Westminster MP for Banff and Buchan,

and leader of the SMP in 1990. After considerable internal wrangling is,

he stood down as leader in 2007, leading the SMP where group at

Westminster and called for Tony Blair to impeached for the Iraq war.

Married with no children he is known as a horse racing pundit, a

supporter of hearts, a very hard`working and shrewd campaigner,

and a man who could become the very first ever Prime Minister of a fully

independent Scotland. Alistair Darling is one of those politicians

highly regarded by political friends and opponents, yet often

underestimated in the media. He would readily concede he is more of

a workhorse than a show horse, though the last debate with Alex

Salmond showed a nose for the jugular. You cannot tell us which

currency we will have! School in Musselburgh on the outskirts of

Edinburgh, then University in Aberdeen with a spell as

career as a lawyer while also becoming a local councillor where he

led a campaign to defy Margaret Thatcher's rate`capping was. He was

selected as an MP for Labour constituency, unseating the

incumbent as part of a long Scottish backlash against Mrs Thatcher's

politics. When Labour won its 1997 landslide, Darling had spells at the

Treasury and transport and also as Scotland's Secretary of State,

before becoming Chancellor of the Exchequer to Gordon Brown at the

start of the worst financial and economic crisis the 70 years. In

September 2007 there was the first run on a UK bank since 1860, when

Northern Rock almost collapsed. Although Labour's economic policies

have and always will be a source of huge political contention, Alistair

Darling's: Steadiness has been praised even by political opponents.

As the head of better together, the ones Marxist who once seated a

sitting story MP and defied Mrs Thatcher now finds himself on the

same side as his Tory and Lib Dem opponent. If the no campaign wins

the vote, he will also be regarded as the man who helped save a 300

year union. Those are the participants, let's

have a look at the substance. What do you think Alex Salmond has to do

to shift those polled more in his direction? He has a number of issues

to address. Policy about currency is one. Alistair Darling will no doubt

home in again on the plan B. However, during the week we had the

chair of the fiscal commission, whose team had to come up with all

the various scenarios that would be possible in an independent Scotland

and he laid out the other ones they had examined and declared several of

them were also viable including sterling eyes Asian. I don't know

what First Minister will say about that but I imagine he will try to

finesse that position in some way dash including sterling currency

being brought in. The NHS is an issue. This was dismissed as

scaremongering by the no campaign but there is a significantly

different NHS in Scotland. It hasn't gone down the privatisation route.

Hang on, we have some features of Alistair Darling arriving at the

other end. You can just see some of the yes campaigners are making their

presence felt. Mr Darling the first one to arrive, although we did see

Alex Salmond earlier today as he looks around the podium and checked

out I suppose rather like a footballer, the pitch before the

game. Sorry, I interrupted you there. You were making the point of

what he has two address. Yes, as I say, the most favourable issues from

his point of view will be to carry on his assertion that the NHS in

Scotland is under threat from the fact that the NHS in England has

taken a significantly different route. It has gone the way of

partial privatisation. Although there is some use of private

medicine in Scotland it is used as a backstop to diminish waiting lists.

There is no competitive tendering with the private sector involved.

The NHS is probably quite a good issue for female voters. Female

voters are the one area where the yes campaign has been significantly

weak. There have always been fewer women prepared to say they will vote

yes than men and the third issue I guess out of many will be loyal.

That came back on the agenda this week. How much oil there is left?

Again that was a big row. Alex Salmond, what do you think he has to

do tonight? Salmon certainly has to continue... The problem he has is

essentially the independence cause is on trial and he has to satisfy

beyond reasonable doubt that the case for independence is robust

enough to make it a worthwhile venture. Alistair Darling on the

other hand has a much easier task this evening in some ways. He just

needs to hug Alex Salmond close. If you think of it in terms of

football, a dull, scoreless draw will suit Alistair Darling find this

evening. If there was no football played at all he would be perfectly

happy. Kill the clock, kill time, prevent anything happening, because

his main task this evening if you like is to park the bus, avoid

defeat and avoid giving Alex Salmond and opportunity to have a good

evening and the momentum he would then be able to exploit as a result

of that. For Alistair Darling in some ways, it is the worse it is the

better. Where is Alex Salmond obviously needs a clear`cut victory

I think tonight, if these debates are to change anything in a

fundamental way that Alex Salmond really does need that. That evoke a

point. Alex Allan has the pressure on him to move things although

expectations have been lowered. Of course they have. I was suggesting

in another context, another place this week that the first win had

supposedly been Real Madrid against Wigan athletic and somehow Wigan

athletic managed to score first against all expectations. I think

tonight, the debate was about technical matters. I know currency

is a big issue in the media and a big issue of Alistair Darling and a

big issue for Alex Salmond to address but that cap the ranch with

people at home, I think what they are desperate for is some sense of

vision, some sense of what tomorrow's Scotland could be like

with a yes vote. Just as importantly what tomorrow's Scotland will be

like if there is a no vote. I think more vision and less nitty`gritty

would be important. I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I suspect

even if it costs Scotland money you would be in favour of going it

alone? In other words the nitty`gritty issues don't count many

people who are strongly yes or strongly now? Obviously nobly wants

to pay more taxes and be insecure but I don't honestly believe that

will be the case. I'm not voting yes because I think Scotland will be a

more or less prosperous country although I happen to think it will

be perfectly prosperous. For me it is quintessentially about values,

about the kind of society we want to build and maintain. For me,

everything down south has gone very far to the right, we have the

prospect of being hauled out of Europe if the Tories have their way

in 2017. We have the prospect of things becoming even more austere. I

was interviewing an economist today at the Edinburgh book Festival who

thinks that this current growth in the economy is a bit of a dead cat

bounce and we shouldn't get too excited about it. I don't think the

UK in the current hands of the current coalition has much going for

it and there is every chance that these hands will still be on the

tiller after the election. It is a bit about values isn't it? The

cliche is usually heads and hearts but there was a poll done which

suggested if you were ?500 better off would you vote one way or

another, some people said yes but really when you ask people that's

not how they are thinking. They are much more of emotional and values

rather than 500 quid here or there. If Scotland really were as left wing

country as its self regarding left wing media establishment and

intelligence earlier would have you believe then you would expect Alex

Salmond and the Nationalists to be winning this race comfortable but it

isn't true so they are not. Nationalists haven't won the

economic argument. Polls consistently suggest that most

people expect that the economy overall would be worse, weaker after

independence and by an overwhelming majority they think their personal

circumstances would be drastically worse after independence. But in

those terms, the surprise is in so much that the Nationalists appear at

present to be losing but that they are doing as well as they are. That

is in part because the idea of Scotland is an immensely powerful

one. There are plenty of people who would vote willingly for

independence, perhaps a fifth of the electorate, regardless of the

consequences. Those are the true believers, those who vote SNP in

each and every election. Equally there are of course perhaps about

15`20% of the electorate who would always vote no regardless of any

economic benefit that came from independence because they feel

British and they think yes, this is a question of identity. Neither side

really wants to address that during the campaign for their different

reasons. The Nationalists have been reluctant to address a politics of

identity because it could be tarred as a neo` Jacobite Bonnie Prince

Charlie lost cause type thing and they dislike the associations with

that. It tends to be pundits and commentators from south of the

border who bring up Braveheart and William Wallace rather than members

of the SNP. Equally, Unionists would be disinclined to wrap themselves in

the union flag. Before you get carried away! Before either others

do, I know you want to come in and say more but we are going to go over

to Aberdeen for a second before we do that because this is a very

diverse country, it's not just the central belt, not just people in

Glasgow and the breath, it is every where from Shetland the Western

Isles and also Aberdeen which is where the oil comes in. Let's go to

Kevin who is there now. Yes indeed. We have gathered a group of people

together in this room who are currently watching the Edinburgh

Tatsu on BBC1 Scotland and of course from half past eight they will be

seeing the debate on here, BBC Two of course, in the rest of the UK.

Nine people in this room whose views we are canvassing, a selection of

yes, no and undecided people among the three in front of us just now we

have Gillian Martin on the right and who is a yes vote, Stewart in the

middle who is a no vote and David who is undecided. what are you

looking to get out of the debate? I'm looking for the debate not

looking to get out of the debate? I'm looking for the debate not to be

about just the European Union, the currency, I'm looking for it to put

forward the reasons we've got a massive opportunity for

independence, I'm hoping Alex Salmond will be looking at the

social side of things, the family, what's in it for mothers, families,

fathers, children, and less about the money and the administration of

a transitional period, which seems to be what the debate is stuck on.

What about performance? Does his performance matter and what was your

view of his performance? The message is far more important to me than the

performance. I think people are a little bit too obsessed with two

gets the rectory, I don't think anybody necessarily needs to. I

think the whole point should be making up your mind rather than it

being a boxing match. `` who get the victory. I think most people find

that annoying. Stewart, you voting `` you are voting no. Do you agree

with that? Will Alistair Darling's performance be under the scrutiny? I

agree with what was said, I am open to facts being manipulated by both

sides and I would like Alistair Darling to describe why we should

stay in the UK, what the benefits are, without getting bogged down in

data that is not relevant to the debate. I think it is you guys in

the media looking for a killer blow. Most people want to listen to

a sensible debate. Most of the information has already been put out

there by both sides so do you anticipate anything new and

significant will come out of it? One of the two sides could drop a

clanger and that will be the headline. I'm actually more

interested in what the questions are from the audience tonight than from

Alex Salmond. Brief question to David. You are undecided. Wood

dropping Clangers make a difference to you? I don't think so. I don't

think mistakes make the difference. One of the things I really like is

self`determination as an idea but I'm not in favour of dividing

countries into smaller bits. If there was any information came out

about what sort of self`determination maximum

devolution could provide, that would be interesting to me. I will be

watching your reactions throughout the debate. Thank you for speaking

to us. We've got nine people in this room. We'll be hearing from them

through this night. This will be going off in the next 45 minutes and

that is when the debate begins and everybody will be not watching the

tattooed but the debate between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond.

Thank you. People all over Scotland do have a vote, people in the rest

of the United Kingdom are affected by this but do not have a say. They

can voice their opinions, because there may be some movements to

reordering relationships up and down these islands as a result of

whatever happens on September the 18th. Let's hear from York. This is

a public house in the centre of York. All day we've been getting

opinions of Yorkshire folk. What do they think about what is happening

north of the border? Some themes are emerging. We spoke to the leader of

York Council and he was comparing Scotland and Wales to Yorkshire,

saying this is a region that demands more exposure. He said Yorkshire and

the Humber have a population of around 5 million people the same

that live in Scotland. Why could Yorkshire not have a stronger voice

in the world? To attract investment, to boost the economy.

They've also spoken to ex`patriots `` expatriates, one who is south of

the border. Because she is not resident in Scotland she has not got

a vote but she strongly believes the union is stronger together, she

wanted to have her saying she reeled off a list of questions. If there is

Scottish independence, what does it mean for her? Does she have to go

back to Scotland? She says the anthers are unknown. Here in the pub

we spoke to a couple who lived in Carlisle. They said if there is

independence, what happens to the Scottish workers who travelled south

to work in Carlisle? They mentioned free prescriptions, tuition fees,

these are the issues that mean something to them. These are issues

they have plenty of questions on. The role of England and its place in

the union at the debate goes north of the border, many here have got

questions about what it means for them.

Thank you. When we left it to hear from Aberdeen, you were getting

angry. Would you like to explain? I was getting irritated by the

conflation of the yes cause and the SNP and Alex Salmond. It has been a

constant tactic of the Better Together campaign to hang the

question of Scottish independence on one man and one party. I have been

very promiscuous with my vote over the years. It is not about

nationalism, not about politicians, it is about Scotland's future. If we

start thinking in these terms rather than party terms, we get into a

territory where there is a vast territory where there is a vast

swathe of Scotland, about 37% of Labour voters are planning to vote

yes and that is because they see a more equitable government in

Scotland than they believe are being pursued in London. It is not just

about Alex Salmond, and not just the SNP, it is about a vision of

Scotland, one vision of Scotland which is positive for me, and the

coalition view is negative. Other people do not share that view. But

we must get away from the idea that it is a 1`party argument. Here we

have it in a nutshell, the remarkable statement that the

independence debate is not about Alex Salmond but it is about David

Cameron, it is not about Nicola Sturgeon but it is about George

Osborne. Oh dear people personalised the First Minister, the leader of

the SNP... Apparently Scotland's vision of its principles and values

are so different from those in England. There is no polling

evidence. I think Alex Salmond is arriving. Let's just see if we can

see him walking into the back of the hall. Sorry to stop you in full

flow. He was here earlier having a good look around, seeing how the

mechanics will work. Looking at the podium and talking to advisers. He's

got some supporters here tonight. The Better Together campaign were

more conspicuous by their absence. Not many people turning up.

Alex Salmond walking into the building, hoping to be the first

Prime Minister of an independent Scotland. In some ways, Ruth is

right, it is about something bigger and better than the SNP, but they

are the government driving it, it is the SNP that published the 600 page

White Paper, at least half of which is an SNP manifesto. It is Alex

Salmond who has taken to saying the SNP policy represents the sovereign

will of the Scottish people. To complain that we are making it about

Alex Salmond seems a little disingenuous when he happens to do

so himself. A country coming to independence led by one person would

not have him as leader for a considerable time, so it is about

him. Only in the short term. This is not for Christmas, it is forever.

Alex Salmond me or may not be the First Minister at the next Scottish

election, but it's not about that. It is bizarre. We have Alex saying,

oh dear they produce a 600 page document as if they are in charge,

meanwhile we don't have a couple `` more than a couple of leaflets from

Better Together. `` how dare they. When people

Better Together. `` how dare they. When publish it, they say, we don't

mean that kind of information. Some people in Aberdeen said they don't

care who wins or loses the debate, they want more information on which

to make up our minds. That's a very feeble copout, if viewers feel that

way they should look at themselves, because there is no shortage of

information. The problem is there are no facts. You have two claims,

experts saying conflicting things and in that sense voters are left in

the middle wondering who to believe but really all you have to guide you

is your judgement. Tonight's debate is a war of experts, my expert knows

more than your expert. That will help voters. Let's get a flavour of

what happened last time. Both men landed a few punches and the one

which many people have referred to was the question of the pound. Any

eight`year`old can tell you the flag of a country, the name of the

country and the currency. You cannot tell us what currency we will have.

I can. Alistair, we will take the pound because it belongs to Scotland

as much as it belongs to England. It is our pound as well as your pound.

Even Gordon Brown has said, you shall not have the pound. It is

counter`productive for your campaign. Why can't we go back to

the Alistair Darling of last year saying it was logical and desirable

in the interests of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom to keep

the pound after independence? Logical and desirable. That was one

of the big blows landed three weeks ago. This is the other one, the

question of whether it could be independent. Your own figures say we

would have a much bigger deficit at the time we want independence than

the rest of the UK and that would mean some difficult decisions. It is

quite simple. Do you agree with David Cameron or not? Do you agree

with David Cameron or not? Do you agree with David Cameron? And so

Darling could have got out of that Darling could have got out of that

simply by saying of course Scotland could be a successful independent

country. Most Scots believe it, whether they think it can happen.

The sensible thing would have been to tell the truth, which would also

be truthful, of course Scotland is feasible. It would be a pretty bad

reflection of 300 years of union if it was not. I don't understand why

he was so reluctant to agree to that except that he had this paranoia

about being tied to the Conservatives, so that if David

Cameron agrees tomorrow is Wednesday, Alistair Darling must say

it is Tuesday. The SNP are very cleverly wanting to tie them

together. Otherwise I don't see why he didn't tell the truth. Knowing

which state is take me back to the other point, facts are difficult to

get that, had they? There are lots of opinions about. The first thing

to say having watched these clips is two men in suits shouting at each

other is not going to greatly add to the sum of human knowledge. It is

difficult to get what Scotland will be like for any degree of certainty.

Any Chancellor of the Exchequer will not tell you what is in their budget

next March. It is a guessing game for everybody. We know that some

things are true, Scotland is reckoned to be the 14th most

prosperous country as opposed to the 18th in the UK. We know that the

credit rating could be triple`A. We know that we have huge resources on

which to be a prosperous country, not all oil, there are many

industries buoyant in Scotland. When people talk about Scotland being

prosperous it is estimation. The 14th richest country in the world is

a slippery statistic, referring to GDP. Alaska tops the list of US

states but nobody thinks those are the best states in the United States

to live in. It is slightly dubious. Of course, long`term forecasts are

difficult, but it is the Nationalists who launched a project

to difficult, but it is the

Nationalists tell us everything we like it would remain and nothing we

did not like would stay. You're watching BBC News from Glasgow on

the Scottish independence referendum debate. Good evening. It's eight

o'clock. This is one of the great landmarks of this great city.

Tonight the big debate, the second of two debates between Alistair

Darling and Alex Salmond. Alistair Darling arrived first. He has 90

minutes or so to argue that we are better together in the United

Kingdom. He laid some blows up the last debate on the question of the

pound. Most of those connected to the campaign think he will attempt

to raise similar demands and other doubts about the economic

performance. Alex Salmond arrived more recently. He had a good

around, checking the podium and the mechanics of the TV studio. He has

90 minutes to turn the polls around and argue for his dream which is

that of an independent Scotland which he has been dedicated to since

he was in his early 20s and a student at university. A lot is at

stake for the entire country. And the United Kingdom as well. What is

at stake. Once the Scottish actor nominated them they couldn't not

take the ice bucket challenge. Alistair Darling was unflappable as

ever. Alex Salmond characteristically

Glasgow 's magnificent Kelvingrove Museum will host the second TV and

counter and this time he was across the UK can watch live. Last time

Alistair Darling attacked Alex Salmond on the question of which

currency they would use. Supporters say is and is first minute still has

no answer to most vital question. What people want are not just quick

one`liners but real answers about the currency, about funding for

Scotland, the future of our jobs and hospitals. If you doesn't deliver he

will get a negative response. Alex Salmond supporters want a more

robust performance tonight, and they expect him to challenge Alistair

Darling on what they see as Scotland's uncertain future inside

the union. To try to put momentum back into the yes campaign Alex

Salmond will have to try to turn the tables forcing Alistair Darling on

the defensive. We will hear a lot from Alex Salmond on what he sees as

the consequences for Scotland's public services, especially the NHS.

I'm sure that the First Minister is going to set out the positive case

for Scottish independence. Of course it's important to point out how

badly we been let down by Westminster and the threats that lie

down the road. The polls still put the anti`independence campaign

ahead, but that lead narrowed after the last TV debate despite Alistair

Darling's strong performance. Will tonight be the pivot on which the

campaign will turn? It's perhaps the most important 90 minutes in this

long battle. One of the interesting things about

this campaign and about the vote in three weeks time is that voters as

young as 16 will get a chance to vote on an issue which has been

bedevilling many people in Scotland for many years. To find out what

some of the younger voters are thinking let's go to the media room.

Three of those younger voters who are part of what is called

generation 2014 are here in the media room along with 40 or 50

Scottish journalists and members of the political parties who are giving

their views ahead of the debate to the assembled hacks. With me as

Lewis Munro, Sarah Lang and Nathan. Which way are you going to vote?

Have you moved from one position to the other? I've looked into both

science and I've decided to vote yes. Did you watch the first debate?

I was disappointed and thought Alex Salmond could have fought for our

side a bit more. I'm hoping that tonight he will really go for it and

show them what he can do. You say you are disappointed that he could

have fought your corner more. What do you mean? Normally he has a bit

more months. Maybe he was listening to people telling him not to be so

forward. I hope you will show his passion. You say you were undecided.

Why is that? Neither campaign really sways me. I've been undecided for

quite some time. I was leading to know originally. Alex Salmond fight

very well for his cause and didn't show as much about his actual

plans. Tonight we might find out what he has planned. Are there

issues you want to hear more about in particular mark? I want to hear

about tuition fees and EU membership. You have moved from

undecided to no. It's a lack of answers from Alex Salmond. I'm quite

a big fan of the union. There was nothing in particular making me want

to vote yes. Did these debates help? And they are helpful for

undecided people. To see them put in the same places helpful. You have

got well`informed opinions. What's going on amongst your school

friends, is being debated very much? It's being debated. It's those

who are well informed that aren't saying much about it. In general

they are talking about what they see on the news. Many people are

researching a bit. It will be interesting because this is

televised. Thank you very much. Enjoy the debate. You will be

watching closely for the next couple of hours. It's not just here in the

media room where people will be watching, it's not just a debate

that will be watched closely in Scotland that this is a debate that

will be watched across the UK. It certainly will be. Thank you.

Those were the views of three of our younger voters. An assessment of

where the Scottish electorate appears to be I'm joined by

Professor John Curtis of Strathclyde University. What's going on in the

polls as they haven't moved. They haven't moved a great deal. The Yes

Campaign side made progress in the winter. Once you took out the don't

knows it went up to 43%. Since then very little has changed. You take

the average of the last half dozen polls, it still 43%. The truth is

given what happened three weeks ago with the first leaders debate it

comes as a bit of a relief to the Yes Campaign. It was felt Alex

Salmond lost the debate with the first opinion poll which came out

suggested that Yes Campaign support went down. Although Alex Salmond is

thought to have lost the first debate, it looks like it did not do

damage to the yes side tally. If the polls are to be believed the Yes

Campaign side is still behind. He badly needs to win this debate. He

needs to win it in such a way that it doesn't simply suggest that he

got the better of Mr Darling that actually persuades them that they

should vote yes. I assume Mr Darling can afford to sit tight. He doesn't

have to give away many goals. His job is to hang on to what he's gone.

He needs to avoid losing, certainly on any of the significant arguments.

So long as he emerges not having lost any ground he will be happy

because he will believe that he is sufficiently far ahead. What looks

like the last significant opportunity for the Yes Campaign

side to narrow the polls. I'm puzzled by who doesn't know. I've

met people who are firmly of one opinion but certainly no one who

doesn't care. The people who say don't know seem to change their

mind. You are correct. Only 15% of people genuinely don't know. They

don't have an idea which way they will vote. Another body of people,

twice as big who say to the pollsters that they've got an idea

what they will do the time might change my mind. To that extent the

job tonight of both leaders isn't just to appeal to a group of people

who haven't made up their mind, they will try to persuade people who've

got an inclination of what they are going to do to actually do something

different. The task that faces them is a tough one because they aren't

talking to an electric doesn't have much idea what they will do. Most

people watching will have an idea of what they are going to do and many

will be determined partisans who will not change their minds. We know

the famous Kennedy, Nixon debate. Do you think people given that this is

also about national sentiment, it may be about money or oil or the NHS

and it's also about how you feel. I think this is a referendum where it

has always looked difficult for either side to move the numbers. The

polls have painted a picture of remarkable stability. The lesson of

the first debate is even when one person is thought to have one, it

did not translate into changing people 's minds. We have to remember

that this hasn't just been going on over the last year. This is a debate

that's been going on for at least 40 years. There is one thing that makes

it unique. It's encouraging for anyone who believes we should have a

civil society and people should be engaged in the way our country is

going. I've talked to politicians of all sorts who say people want to

open the doors. It's a valuable thing to take away. Inside the

United Kingdom we are going to settle what is politically one of

the most difficult disputes to settle often leads to armed

conflict, whether part of the state... Apparently we will settle

this peacefully and critically. In so doing it looks like the turnout

will be high. People in Scotland except they aren't being to choose

between Tweedledee and Tweedledum for the next five years. It's an

important choice. Not all want the choice forced upon them, but faced

with the choice it looks like the voters of Scotland agree they will

need to turn up and in their hands will live the future of this

country. Thank you. Thus I was saying earlier, this is a very

diverse country from this central belt with all the industry

associated with bars: Edinburgh to the islands, Shetland and also to

We are in a hotel in the city. Kevin.

We are in a hotel in the city. Around me nine people who represent

yes voters and no voters and those who haven't decided where they will

put their cross. Tonight might be the deciding moment for those people

who've yet to make the decision. Three people to speak to hear.

Howard, you are a yes vote. What are you hoping to get out of tonight?

Something a bit less of ping`pong than we head in the last debate. I

don't think the format was conducive to a good debate. It concentrated

too much on ping`pong, back and forwards on issues that really

aren't essential to the big question. What are the key issues

for you? Democratic accountability. I want a government that is close

enough to need to kick them up the backside if they need it. The issue

with the health service is important. More than just discussing

funding for the health service the main issue is the privatisation down

south and the effect friends Atlantic trade and investment act

will have on that. `` transatlantic investment. Sitting next to you is

Robin, a no voter. What will tonight 's debate produce for you, you

hope? Something more substantive than what we've seen in the past. No

finger wagging but actual answers or steps towards an answer. It just

seems to be a you said he said argument. No semblance of policy or

what happen in the event of a yes vote or no vote. Do you think that

will happen? Probably not. We also have an undecided voter, James. You

are one of the opinions that matters for the two politicians at the

podium tonight, because if anyone will have their votes wait, it will

be you. What will you be looking out for? I am looking forward to hearing

about the plan on currency. It is one of the things that if there is

no contingency, I will be surprised. I'm looking forward to hearing about

what I am voting for with the no vote, so what is the future of

Scotland to look like with the no vote and Better Together saying what

that is. Do you think you will make a decision tonight? This is the last

of these debates between the two leaders. At the moment, I am

balancing all kinds of risks and opportunities on both sides. I think

it may come down to the last one. It is almost how I feel on the day.

Robin, you are living in the big oil city, and that is big on the agenda

for the last week. What are you hoping will come out of tonight

relating to oil? I don't really know. I live in an oil city, and I

don't feel the effects of oil. I work in the public sector. Like a

lot of people who live in Aberdeen, it will be good to see the welfare

side of things and the social impact for those of us in the vast majority

not working in oil. Is oil the big issue for you? It is not a big

issue, it is the icing on the cake. It has become a big issue because it

has become one of the football is battered back and forwards, but in

the bigger picture, it is a small portion of what is important. Thank

you very much indeed for joining us. We are 12 minutes away from the

start of the debate. All eyes are glued on BBC One Scotland, which is

showing EastEnders at the moment. BBC Two throughout the rest of the

UK is where you will see that debate begin at 8:30pm. Nine people will

see her afterwards whether they change their votes or declare in any

direction, but for the moment, this is the big drama. `` we will see her

afterwards. Ruth and Alex are still with me. I was trying to engage John

on the question of engagement, because at one `` it is one of the

good things about this. We're having a discussion, and we may not agree,

but we are engaged. I have been around Scotland in the last few

weeks and months, and the extraordinary things is that whether

it is a wet night or a dry night or a hot summer night, no matter what

is on the television, people are going into town halls. You could not

be on a tram or in a cab or any moving vehicle without people

spontaneously combusting about the referendum. That says a lot about

how politics has been revitalised by this debate, regardless or most of

what happens. There has been a lot of banter. They have been workplace

rights, and rows between families. It is sensible to be passionate, but

the most striking and significant aspect of the campaign is how

friendly and civilised it has been. People on both set a lot of stupid

things, but that is to be expected in politics. These are people we are

talking about. In general, it has been a good`tempered campaign. It

has engaged an awful lot of people, many of them coming to politics for

the first time or returning to political active in date and after

is strange man. You have covered American elections, and this reminds

me of something like the New Hampshire primary where you have

town hall meeting after town hall meeting, and people say I'm not sure

which candidate I will vote for in the primary because I have not met

them yet. I don't want to stretch the comparison too far, but there is

something similar happening here. The American comparison is

worthwhile, because in decided voters alike independence in the

United States. There are more of them could then people like to

pretend. It is an interesting campaign, and we will be following

every minute of it. You are watching BBC News.

You are watching special coverage on BBC News of the Scotland

independence referendum debate. It begins in a few minutes. We would

like to welcome our viewers from around the world. We're here in the

magnificent setting, the West End of Glasgow, at the Kelvingrove Art

Gallery and Museum. It pulls in about 1 million visitors a year. Not

so many there tonight. About a few hundred who will watch the debate,

which may decide the future, not just of Scotland, but also the

United Kingdom. For a sense of what is going on inside the hall, let's

go over to my colleague, who joins us from the media room.

Commonly known as the spin room, it is the assembled media. There are

representatives of international media here as well, two of them

joining us now. If I may start with you, is there much interest in

Canada? It is interesting for us, because we had two referendums, one

in 1980, and one in 1995 on independence. In both, the no side

one. But the yes camp in the last vote, they got 99.5 `` 49.5%.

Interesting in Canada, but what about the yes and no campaigns here?

Have they been taking much advice from Canada? Bid Yes campaign from

Scotland had a lot of advice from the same thing for the no campaign.

What worked and what did not wear? A minister flew to

of information has been exchanged? One thing for example is we had a

lot of Canadians coming to Montreal to say that they've loved us. It

seems it worked. The nose so `` the no side said it didn't work, so they

told the yes campaign not to do that. There have been a lot of

talks. The know, thanks formula, it was formulated in 1980. `` no

thanks. The United Kingdom as a Eurosceptic. How does that play with

your readers? Or Mac very well. A lot of our readers know Scotland

from holidays, and there is widespread frustration and

irritation in Germany and in Europe about the British government's

stands on Europe. It is very exciting to see parts of the United

Kingdom where Europe is seen as a basically good thing. That is

surprising and exciting. And there are just 5 million people living in

Scotland. Is there much interest in what is happening here? On a

political level, Berlin and many other capitals in

widespread ramifications of Scotland's independence. Is there a

feeling of being nudged along by the UK Government? That would be the

suspicion. If you look at Britain as a country, as a united country, it

would a country, as a united country, a

strategic implication if Scotland became independent. There are on a

political level fears that Europe will lose its role in the world and

become entangled in a never ending internal conflict. Interesting.

Thank you both very much for that. You can see the journalists behind

us. We have already seen members of some of the Unionist camp, numbers

of the Labour Party, members of the Lib Dems, representatives of the

SNP, or putting their case and of this debate, and we will no doubt

see them afterwards as well. Indeed we will. The debate begins in

just a few minutes, and I am joint by two distinguished Scottish

writers and broadcasters. It was interesting, Alex, hearing the

Canadian journalist talking about what happened with Quebec. They

became the kind of never`ending campaign. Even if Alex Salmond loses

all the SNP loses all the Yes campaign loses, it won't be over,

will it? The Yes campaign boing `` won't stop campaigning. They form

the Scottish Government after all. Attention will then focus to the

promises made by the Unionist parties about the devolution of

additional powers to Scotland, and there will be a debate about that.

The notion of a never`ending referendum, that we will come back

to this in ten years time, it strikes me as improbable, because

you need a majority of the Scottish parliament to pass your referendum

bill, and the electoral system of the Scottish parliament is designed

to make achieving an overall majority extremely difficult. The

SNP managed it, but that was things to a freak set of circumstances that

we shouldn't expect to be repeated. The argument will not disappear, but

the idea we would have another referendum in five or ten years is

slightly implausible. I actually agree with Alex. I view that

prospect with less... I think the question will disappear quickly off

the radar. We have a UK general election. All of the party leaders

will throw themselves into that. We have an in and out referendum for

Europe a year later. I think Scotland will disappear. If there is

no vote, you will go way down the judge agenda. `` wait on the agenda.

If there is a yes vote, how do you view that? You are going to vote

yes. Outside today you about the prospect? I am very excited. I say

this as someone who loves England. I would like to see a social

democratic Scotland doing a tank being in an equitable way,

negotiating with its friends and neighbours in England equitable and

to this temporary conundrum of how we change the constitution in

Britain, and I think everything is possible. We have had a union for

300 years. We have had not a union for longer than that. We keep

talking in Scotland about the Scandinavian example, about how well

they do these things. Norway breaking off, for example. Norway

and Sweden were in a close union. They are still Scandinavia. They

don't say, I am not Scandinavia. But no one will rush to join up again.

The question Alistair Darling had difficulty with in the first debate

was whether Scotland could be a successful independent country. Even

though you would vote no, you think it could be. Of course it could be.

There is nothing genetic about the Scots, we are quite capable of

running our own country. It would not be a disaster. That is a

preposterous notion. It is somewhat insulting. I don't think

independence has to be a disaster. I think, ultimately, this is a

question of something you mentioned earlier, which is feelings and

belonging in committee. This is where the Scandinavian example

breaks down. I don't pick if you ask someone in Norway, what nationality

are you, they are not going to say I am Norwegian and Scandinavian. If

you ask some one in Scotland, a lot of people will say I'm Scottish and

British. Ruth disagrees, but they feel a part of their identity is

threatened by independence, and they feel something would be lost. Just

as I'm quite happy to admit something was lost on the day of the

act of union being signed, the bells at Saint Giles Cathedral rang out

that morning to the tune of how can I be sad on my wedding day?

Similarly, on the day of independence, where it happen, there

would be a lot of people wondering, why aren't I happy on the day of my

divorce? What you come to my party, Alex? It will be a splendid party.

One of you will be celebrating more. There has been a lot of talk about

the bitterness, about the trolls, but I have found this a civilised

and engaging argument. I don't think there would be a huge amount of

disappointment on one side of the other, I directed there would be a

huge amount of bitterness. Let's find out what will happen in this

man is a building behind me. The debate is about to be chaired by

Glen Campbell. The two men that may hold the future of Scotland and the

UK in their hands are about to engage.

Scotland's future. With the eyes of the world watching as the

independence referendum edges ever closer, welcome to Glasgow for

Scotland decides.