Debate Review Scotland Decides

You are watching BBC News' extended coverage of the independence debate

from Glasgow. I am at the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum,

where we witnessed 90 minutes of lively and sometimes passionate

debates between Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland, and

Alistair Darling speaking on behalf of the Better Together campaign. A

lot of tonight's debate, in fact a lot of the debate in general, turns

on the issue of trust, and I have to trusted guides with me now. What

were your first reactions to this? I don't know how much English viewers

knew, but when Johannesburg, `` Johan had the debate, there was a

lot of shouting and pointing and talking over each other. They were

amateurs. There was a huge section in the middle where both sides did

themselves no favours by shouting at each other. Having said that, and

I'm not saying this because I wouldn't, I think Alex Salmond won,

because he had different lines of attack, and he was also strong on

the bedroom tax and welfare. He believes the currency is his winning

ticket, because he mentioned it in the opening statement and

throughout, he answered several questions by bringing up currency

again, and use it in his last a man. One thing I would observe wiggly, I

thought the best questions came from the audience. The audience played a

blinder. The audience came up with if we are Better Together, why are

we not Better Together yet? Well played, audience. It was certainly

an audience the Yes campaign will be pleased with. I think any honest and

dispassionate analysis of this debate has to conclude that Alex

Salmond won it in one pretty comfortable. In fact, I would say he

won it as conclusively as Alistair Darling won the first one. With his

right that the extended 20 minutes in the middle where they were

talking not over one another but shouting at the same time like to

opera singers standing on different sides of the stage singing

completely different arias simultaneously, and you have no idea

what is going on or who is saying what, it was a bit like that at

times. But, yes, this was a good night for Alex Salmond. Much of the

debate was on the areas that he wanted to talk about, where the

exchanges that mattered were on currency and the economy, and

Alistair Darling had the better of it. When he went back to the

currency, time and time again, it felt stale and tired and very

repetitive. By contrast, a lot of the debate was on things like North

Sea oil, a welfare where Salmond did a effective job of tying Alistair

Darling to unpopular coalition government welfare policies. More of

the debate was centred on the subjects that Alex Salmond wanted to

talk about, which is why he was able to dominate the debate in many ways.

He was on the front foot. He was leading the issues most of the time,

having the better of the exchanges. Alistair Darling seemed ill`prepared

for some of these questions. Asda is going to say that Alex Salmond

phrased a lot about the will of the Scottish people, that he would

accept the will of the Scottish people. If race but in different

ways. But that seemed to be a strong suit. It was strong, will watch

strong beam or `` what struck me more is that Alistair felt when he

was portrayed as being in bed with the Conservatives, when he was

portrayed as a three legged horse with the other two parties, he gets

saying, I'm a Labour politician, Alex kept saying he was representing

Better Together. As the Alistair Darling is very unhappy to be

coupled with the Tory party in this. A woman in the audience criticised

him about the National Health Service and said you have an iron

burden on your shot. That rattled him. He looked annoyed. Let's see

how it went down in the media room. In the last few minutes, we have got

results of a poll of about 500 people. They say it was a 71%`29% in

favour of Alex Salmond after that electrifying debate. But with media

commentator on affairs. This poll suggests Salmond got the better of

Darling in this debate. Would you agree? He seemed very nervous in his

closing statement. Alistair's closing statement was very weak.

evening. There was a lot of evening. There was a lot of

the words apart, but most people will just look at the

impression. The general impression, if you are aiming for undecided

voters, shouting is not a good look. I think people

there is or turn the television. Whether it will have shifted the

vote, I don't know, but on balance, the end of the debate, would say

that Alex Salmond did better than Alistair Darling. Your PC is someone

who are content in favour of the union, but did Alistair Darling come

across as nervous? `` you are perceived as someone. He did seem

nervous. He didn't take control of the questions and ten them around to

its advantage, which is something Alex Salmond is a professional it. I

feel let down by Alistair Darling. We will Boyd up last time in the

last debate. He didn't seem to take control, and he did seem very

nervous. Richard, your paper is the only Scottish paper to declare for

yes. What did you make of the debate? It was a good night for Alex

Anthony Yes campaign. Think Alistair Darling was on the ropes. I was

pleased to hear Alex and ask what Darling's position would be in the

event of a yes vote, and we was avoiding that question, which

was a good question to ask. spin their points of view. Those

campaigning in favour of said Alex Salmond had no new tricks.

There were three Plan Bs, What would you say to that? It is

not a question designed to elicit information, it is a counter trap. I

think Alex and knows that. Alistair Darling said there is no plan that

he would support after independence for the currency, so there is little

point trying to persuade him otherwise. Alex Salmond put forward

a definite Plan B. Alistair Darling would say there is no use, what is

your can`mac plan C. There will still not find a plan. `` Fancy.

Thank you very very much for that. Much appreciated.

for the journalists in this room. Its key, the postal votes heading

out tomorrow. Just a reminder of the breaking news. These polls are very

rough. This is the instant reaction to who won the debate. The people

polled said 71% said Alex Salmon and 29% fat Alistair Darling. According

with our views. `` for Alistair Darling. The big issue that Alistair

Darling wanted to hammer home was this issue about currency. He used

the word risk repeatedly, particularly on the currency. If we

don't have a currency union what is plan B? I had no luck three weeks

ago. He either can't say or doesn't think we will like the answer. It's

not a matter for Alex Salmond what not a matter for Alex Salmond what

the alternative is. If it's the Panama model I would like to know. I

don't want to use someone else's currency with no central bank and

rotten public services. If it's the euro, I don't want that either. A

separate currency, we don't want that. I want to know what plan is

and so do you. Tell us. You don't have to point. I have set up the

options very clearly. You have got three plan Bs. We have got three

tonight. I want to follow the will of the

Scottish people. Will you as a Democrat accept the will of the

Scottish people? If you win this referendum I will accept it's a no

vote. Will you accept the sovereign will of the Scottish people if it is

a yes vote? I have always said in a referendum you accept the outcome. I

happen to think, and so do a lot of people, that a currency union of

this sort is the second best option for Scotland. I want the pound

sterling and only works if you have a political union that goes with it.

Given the prominence that this question played in the first debate

three weeks ago it's hardly surprising that the First Minister

was much better prepared with his answers. He said he had got three

plan Bs. This issue of a currency came up time and time again. The

question of whether Scotland could be used pound if it was effectively

run from London. You said a few moments ago you had a row of plan

Bs. It's not a collection of buses. It's the value of our savings, the

interest rates we pay and the money for public services. Stop playing

games with us. You must have a plan B. If we win the referendum will you

be a Democrat. Can't we use the pound anyway. Of course we can. We

can use the dollar, we can use anything. If you're using somebody

else's currency you don't have a central bank. Hold on a bit. The

second problem you have is that countries that use other people 's

currencies like Panama or Ecuador or Hong Kong, they have to run a

surplus. They can't borrow. You would have a huge deficit. This was

what Ruth was talking about. Slightly difficult to find out what

either of them was saying. Clearly it's a big issue for the no

campaign. The no campaign, the focus group save people aren't interested

in nationality and longing. They focus on risk and uncertainty. The

No Campaign focus groups say the same thing. I thought Alistair

Darling botched the currency issue. Alex Salmond was cutely trying to

suggest we will keep the pound come what may and there's essentially no

real difference between a formal currency union and sterling eyes

Asian whereby Scotland would continue to use the pound. There is

a considerable difference between these two things. He is muddying the

waters. Alistair Darling missed the opportunity to say you've given me

three buses but the problem is none of them will go to destinations I or

the people of Scotland want. Currency is a weakness and they will

never win on it. If they can get a draw on it or get to the stage where

everybody is so fed up talking about it but they would do anything to

listen to some other message they will take that. There is a puzzle

here. Scotland may vote for independence but keep the pound, the

Queen, being able to watch Eastenders. How independent would

this be even of Alex Salmond gets his heart 's desire? He wants to

pick and choose. He narrowed it down to two things. The political union

and the economic union that he wanted severed. It's interesting to

night, apart from the shouting. There must have been a mass exodus

to the kettle or the pub in the middle. I thought Alex Salmond

managed to extract two important statements. You can keep the pound

and music. `` and use it. He was asked if Scotland could be a

prosperous and sustainable country and he refused to answer. He

accepted that it could tonight and his view is that it's better

together. On all of the currency issues it's much more of a vote

winner for the No Campaign. I was surprised that Alistair Darling

didn't use the argument they've used elsewhere. We've seen with the euro

if you don't have a close political union you can have a shambolic use

of the currency. He tried to make the point that what is the point of

an independence that has your currency controlled in London, your

economic policy in broad terms set in London which is what the SNP

actually advocate. Even after independence their spending power

would be severely limited. There might be good reasons. It might lead

to better government than would otherwise be the case. Alistair

Darling was not at his best tonight. He seemed taken aback by the

ferocity of Alex Salmon's assault and taken aback by the audience. It

was very much on his side. I wondered whether he made a hole for

himself when he raised the pound as the first question. The audience

side. `` the audience gave a sigh. They were asking each other

questions. The first question Alastair asked was about the

currency and there was a feeling of here we go again in the audience.

The audience can't have been instinctively on Alex Salmond's side

because they were carefully selected. It's difficult to tell

whether or not they became on the side of Alex Salmond. People talk

about a currency union and not being sustainable. There were lots of

examples tossed about with Panama and Hong Kong. I think

Czechoslovakia as it then was is interesting. Czech Republic and

Slovakia started off having a currency union. It didn't work out

and everybody assumed the big prosperous Czech Republic would be

the winners. Some years down the line Slovakia is the more

prosperous. Both of them are in fine fat. Wide the other thing that came

out in Alistair Darling's argument was oil and the declining fortunes

of the oil industry had some time in the future. This is something that

plays very big in Aberdeen. We have nine people watching here.

Everything else that was covered in that debate was watched here.

Gillian, David and Robin. You voted yes. Do you think Alex Allen won the

argument. What was really interesting to me was watching the

closing statements. It's a very grass notes campaign. It was almost

a political competition between two men which it isn't just about. Alex

Salmond said it wasn't about being about politicians but being about

the people of Scotland. On the subject of the currency Aleksandar

Tonev about alternative options. He didn't name a plan B but laid out

some alternatives. You think that won the argument for him? Alex

Salmond hasn't... He's been talking about the range of options all the

way through. This plan B seems to have been something that better

together have cottoned on to. Everybody is talking about plan B.

Tonight he pretty much talked about why plan a is what he thinks they

should go forward with and why they should have a mandate. It will be a

big mistake Alex Salmond to talk about a second option. He wants the

option for us. In the event of a yes vote, even everybody on the other

side will be with him on that. It is the best option for Scotland. On the

issue of the currency, do you think Alex Salmond managed to take the

sting out of the argument? And I think he did. He dealt really well

with the currency. He laid out quite a few options. The idea of the

mandate was something that both sides agree on. He's admitting we

are going forward with the pound and there are other options. It's not an

explicit plan B but we don't really need one if he's already declared

other options. A big chunk of the debate, but he didn't dominate it in

the same way. Do you think some of the other issues shed any new light

on the debate? Yes. It was good to see other considerations. It was

nice to see that they were mindful that it's not just a debate on

currency. Issues on welfare were touched on. The NHS was dealt with

which is brilliant to see. It's something that both sides are

mindful of. We have an undecided voter with us. You are the key to

all of this because it's your vote that both sides are trying to grab

to tip them over the magic 50% mark. Did anybody swing at fair you? I'm

not swung yet. I'm slightly clearer on what the clear issue is, one of

them. It's hard to get that out of the debate. Much too much shouting.

Where is the clarity? In the short`term I think there's no doubt

we would be slightly worse off. Much too much focus on the short`term. In

the long term we might be better off with local decisions made more

locally. I'm still You have three more weeks to make that decision.

September 18 is the magic day. Nine people here, three undecided, three

yes, three no. It was interesting to see just how passionate people were

being about the debate here. Thank you. A few moments ago, we

were wondering about what people all over the United Kingdom were making

of this debate, which was lively and passion in places. Let's find out

what the people in York were thinking.

This was a debate held in Scotland, but some people here in England are

watching this very closely. We spent the day in Yorkshire to test

opinions. The first person we spoke to was the leader of York council,

James Alexander. He wants to use this debate in Scotland, the

arguments over independence, to call for more power for the Yorkshire and

Humberside region. He wants Yorkshire, with its population of

five than in people `` 5 million people, to have more say in economy

and investment. He argues that Scotland can have their say, if

Wales can have devolution, why not Yorkshire? We spoke to a couple who

had many questions about what it means that them at a basic level.

They live near the England Scotland border in Carlisle. They talked

about free prescriptions and tuition fees. There was saying is Scottish

people do get independent and Scots within Scotland become down to

working Carlisle, what does that mean? Two they still get free

prescriptions? Plenty of questions there. `` do they. We have also

heard from the experts, the Scots who live in England. Thousands of

people who were born in Scotland but now live in other parts of the are

ticking. They cannot vote because they are not resident in Scotland.

`` other parts of the United Kingdom. They say they should have a

say. We tested the opinion here in this pub in the centre. I'm in

favour of Scottish independence. It will give regions in the UK ever

greater voice in Westminster. More power to places like Yorkshire?

Absolutely. If Scotland can go it alone, we can stand on our own two

feet as well. I think they are taking a chance. They have the oil

etc. They think that is enough. They don't realise they need us as much

as we need them. I don't did they should go for it. I would go against

it. If people choose to take themselves away, that is fine,

however, they have to look at what we have given them and helped them

with. I would prefer them to stay as they are, united. They have had that

in the past where they have been separate, and I can understand their

frustrations. They are a long way from London, and I can understand

they feel out of it, and we do too, so I can see that side, but I think

we should stay together. What was clear from listening to those

opinions and from our spending the day here in York is that since this

debate, it has brought the whole issue into sharper focus, and

speaking to people on the streets, more and more people are asking

questions about what it means for them, and what it means for

England's role in the union. Thank you. One of the unique

features about this debate and the referendum vote is 16 and

17`year`olds will be allowed to vote. I have been talking to them

down the country, and many are extremely engaged and informed about

what is going on in Scotland. They really are well informed. There

are plenty of debates taking place in schools up and down in Scotland.

There is a lot on in social media. Three of those young voters have

joined us in the media room, the spin room tonight. They have been

watching the debate closely with me. We have no thing, Willis and Sarah.

You say you are undecided. Did you get anything from that debate? ``

Nathan. I've learned a lot more about the two men than it did in the

first debate. What about the issues? In general, they went back to

currency a lot, which we are very spent a lot of time on. Did you want

to hear more about currency, or had you had enough? I kind of thought

Alex Salmond was either going to tell us his grand plan again all be

evasive again, but I think generally, it was really good. In a

word or two, you said you are undecided. What is your position

now? I'm still not sure. Interesting. I thought it was better

than the last debate. One of my favourite parts was when Alistair

Darling admitted that Scotland could use the pound, and I thought there

was a great line from the audience which was if we will be Better

Together, why are we not now? I love that moment. That was my favourite

part. They say female voters are to a larger degree still undecided

compared to male voters. They say they want calm, considered

arguments. That times a bit shouted. What did you make of those parts?

People can't make decisions on which politicians are the loudest or shut

the most. `` shouted the most. There was a poll that said 71% to 29% in

favour of Alex Salmond's performance tonight. You say you are and no

voter. What did you make of Alistair Darling's performance? I was more

disappointed. Although Darling struggled when it came to the

currency, because it kept coming back to that argument when the

audience wanted to get past it, he did well towards the end. People

were stoic to move more back in his favour. Considering how well

prepared Alex Salmond was, Darling held well. `` people were starting

to move. People my age are incredibly interested. It is the

first time we have engaged. It is a great opportunity. The debates

themselves, we have had text messages between friends, but people

are having a huge reaction. Thank you all very much. But you also get

in this media room this evening is members of various political

parties. Let me give you some of their comments. Despite all of the

shouting, union member parties said Alex Salmond didn't give any

answers, and the spin room would be delighted. Alistair Darling had no

vision, and was insulting to the Scottish people. They are working

hard to convince the newspaper people assembled in this room who

won this debate tonight. Thank you. We have a couple of the

first editions of the newspapers. Let me read you the headlines. The

Guardian has summoned, Darling has sided with the Tories. There is only

one Scottish Conservative MP at Westminster, and that you some

people is a considerable vote winner for Mr Salmond. `` and that for some

people. Salmond in feisty clash with Darling. It certainly was at times.

You couldn't at times make out what either were saying. Excellent papers

though they are, they would not be the biggest selling in Scotland. We

hope to get some headlines from the Scottish newspapers a little later

in the programme. Let's pick up a couple of thoughts there. One thing

that came up which was very strong was Trident. You live quite close to

it. I am in that the miniature angle. How difficult is that any

shoe for Better Together? `` there be immune triangle. `` Bermuda

Triangle. Some are dependent on jobs at the bases. 8000, I think. That

figure gets bandied about, but some ancillary jobs. It is a very big

issue for people living there. They do worry about jobs and about what

will happen if Trident is moved. Alex Salmond says that will be the

headquarters of the Scottish defence Force. There has been a consistent

feeling that Trident is immoral and illegal and should not be part of

this country and should not be on Scottish shores. I think it is a

vote winner across Scotland. It is not necessarily a vote winner where

I live. On the other hand, where I live is a relatively small

community. There are a lot of jobs, but it is a small committee.

Overall, what Darling failed to do was take on Salmond on immorality

and legality of Trident, which is a big issue for a lot of Scots. What

he did say was you don't have to choose between defending the country

and the health service, because that was the context. The Yes campaign

what should believe that while unionists are spending all of this

money on new nuclear weapons, they are quite happy to leave in the

streets. That is obviously preposterous. `` happy to leave

infants starving. It is not the issue that will decide the matter

for many people. There are people for whom Trident is a immoral

absurdity, and that is an important issue for them. There were

overwhelmingly vote yes, I imagine, because they are the far left in

general. But for most people, they might not much like Trident, but it

doesn't impinge upon their lives very much. Polling evidence suggests

that the country is fairly divided on Trident. Most of all, actually

fairly indifferent to it, just as as they are mostly indifferent other

defence issues. I have to take issue with that. The suggestion that only

people on the left are opposed to Trident. Amongst the many people who

were arrested outside the gates at Faslane during the many years of

protests were three moderators of the General Assembly of the church

of Scotland. I don't think they are closet communists, they just care

about defence policy. Trident is an issue of minority passion. You may

be for the spectator, but not elsewhere. On that happy note, not

talking over each other, but feisty nonetheless, Ruth and Alex, thank

you both very much. It has been a somewhat chilly but bright and

fairly dry day here in Glasgow. Let's catch up with the weather.

Glorious sunshine in Scotland. 19 degrees. Rain until dusk in London.

More than 30 millimetres of rain. Anthony his cloud, an area of low

pressure sitting to the West. A very wet bank holiday. It has not

finished yet. This strip