03/09/2014 Scotland Decides

Now on BBC News, Scotland Decides ` Referendum Today, with Sarah Smith.

A former UK ambassador to NATO says the alliance would welcome an

independent Scotland. independence would have

on defence and foreign affairs. The battle for traditional Labour

voters ` Brian Taylor looks at the party's profile in Scotland and the

possible impact on the referendum. The moderator of the Church

of Scotland calls for both sides to respect each other in the final

fortnight of the campaign. As world leaders arrive in Wales

this evening for the NATO Summit, a recently retired UK ambassador says

the international alliance would welcome an independent Scotland even

if the country removed Trident. Dame Mariot Leslie,

who stepped down earlier this year as the UK's permanent representative

to NATO, also revealed she will be Earlier in the week,

the former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander in Europe described

the SNP's defence policy One of the UK's three main naval

bases is on the Clyde at Faslane, which is home to

the nation's Trident nuclear fleet. So what will the future hold

for Scotland's defence and foreign affairs if it votes

in favour of independence? Hello from the Faslane naval base in

magnificent scenery about 40 miles outside Glasgow. We have come here

because this is the home to Britain's Trident submarine

programme, a programme which is in jeopardy should there be a yes vote

for independence, because the new Scottish Government would want rid

of Trident from its base here. Defence itself is one of the hot

political topics in the independence debate. I am joined by Councillor

George Freeman, who worked in and around the base for 18 years here. I

also have another guest here as well. There are serious concerns on

the impact of the economy. We're not talking about the four

boats. The SNP are talking about all nuclear powered boats. We're talking

about 13`17. There are 10,600 people employed or dependent on Faslane for

employment locally. The local economy

devastated. It was made clear that any conventional

and following the removal of Trident and all nuclear submarines would

only employee in the region of about 1000 staff,

the Mormons, with another 2000 and the pipeline. `` at the moment. It

is really scary to consider the impact on the local economy. The

jobs are very much exaggerated. This is what we hear quite a lot from the

Better Together campaign, scaremongering about this. I put in

a freedom of information request, and the figure is 520 civilian jobs

at the Clyde naval base. There is a total civilian workforce of over

3000 people. If you're looking at this, the Scottish Government plan

2020, nuclear submarines I2028. In that timescale, the transition for

it to a headquarters facility... So there will be different jobs. So it

is a long time scale for transition. The age profile of the

workforce at the moment is older, but quite a lot of the workforce

will have retired by that time. Some people can keep reading skills,

will be retrained. You bring in new people for the new job is required.

`` new jobs. facility for the Scottish Armed

Forces. If you look at Britain, there is a whole lot of big

infrastructure of the Ministry of Defence which is down south. This

summer that has been stood Faslane, it is different work and different

jobs, but you can work out how to do that. So the impact would not be as

great as people think? That is the misleading information. 520 jobs

directly linked to Trident does not take into account the other 10`12

submarines that will also be lost. John Ainslie has confirmed that in

the past in a discussion with me. We're not just talking about for

submarines here. It is Scottish enterprise who have confirmed the

figures of 10,600 direct and indirect people attending on

Faslane. But you want to get rid of nuclear`power submarines? The main

thing is getting rid of nuclear weapons. A yes vote, I am pretty

sure we'll do that. I think what London when they decide would be to

scrap it. `` would then. But we won't nuclear powered submarines

removed as well. `` we want. I think it is perfectly possible within

timescale is we talk about that the workforce can transition to other

work. Thank you very much. This is one of the many topics which on

social media is a very hot topic. If you look on Twitter, you will see a

lot of information and you can find a lot more information on the BBC's

own website. The comments by the former NATO

ambassador were raised at Prime Minister's Questions, with

this question from the SNP's leader The most recent UK ambassador to

NATO, Dame Mariot Leslie, has today said that an independent Scotland

would be welcoming me to wonder she is voting yes on a referendum, like

so many other undecided voters who want a better Scotland. Earlier this

year, the Prime Minister gave a commitment on Scottish television to

take part in a programme with undecided voters before the

referendum. Will he be doing that running away just as he away from

the First Minister in a debate? On the television programme, I offered

a date and a format. But they seemed to run away themselves, which is a

great pity. On NATO, I prefer to listen to Lord Robinson, the

Secretary General of NATO, who is absolutely clear that Scotland would

be better off inside the UK and the UK would be better off with

Scotland. The problem with him is that when it comes to all of the big

question is, what currency would a separate Scotland use, what would

the position be in Natal, what is the position the European Union?

They cannot provide a single credible answer.

With me now from Yes Scotland is the Veterans Minister Keith Brown, and

from Better Together, the Shadow Defence Minister, Gemma Doyle.

Thank you for coming in. Gemma, firstly, can I ask you about the

comments made earlier. The ambassador said they would be no

problems with Scotland joining NATO. Do you agree? She is entitled to her

opinion but it is just that, one person's opinion. We know for a fact

that Scotland would have to reapply to join NATO. That does not mean it

will not get membership. For sure, but the Secretary General has told

us that. 28 countries would have to agree to Scotland joining NATO.

Nobody can give us a guarantee that that would happen. What is clear is

that the SNP's plans would make Scotland less safe than it is today.

It was the supreme allied commander who just that down and said that

your plans for Scottish defences were amateur and unrealistic. If you

look at defence policy, that is an accusation you could level at both

the UK Government and the MOD. If you look at what has happened in

Iraq, for example, you will see that other comments have suggested that

the military has been hollowed out in the UK. As for Natal, it is not

just one person's opinion, this was a very senior official and

ambassador for the UK. `` as for NATO. You are happy to refer to

heart credibility and post, but not a former deputy supreme allied

commander? You criticise your plans as amateurs no amateurish. ``

amateurish plans. The criticism levelled shows he has not read their

white paper. Some of his comments about Mountain Rescue, he is not

read the detail in the White Paper and I suggest he reads the White

Paper first. It is an adamant about why NATO would want to exclude key

members at a time when there is a perceived threat from Russia.

Interestingly, they signed a defence agreement with Sweden and Finland

last week because of this thread. At a time like this, they would be very

eager for Scotland to join, would they not? At the moment, we are part

of the UK, which is a founding member of Natal and gives us a high

level of security. `` NATO. These issues do not often impact on our

daily lives because of the high level of Corporation and security we

have. By working with allies across the world, that work would have to

start from scratch again. What we do know Scotland would have to be to

Natal Dominic NATO. I do not want us to be out of it for one day. `` to

NATO. Scotland would be left less safe than it is at the moment. It is

all very well to say look at the detail of the White Paper. No`one

thinks it is any detail on the White Paper about the Scottish

Government's defence plans for Scotland and it is not good enough

for Scots. We do know, and you have been very definite about it, that

Trident would have to leave Scotland and it would be nuclear free in

Scotland. If that is a top priority for a Scottish Government, why are

you so desperate to join NATO, analyse which has nuclear for strike

capabilities? Many members of Natal do not have nuclear weapons. ``

NATO. It is hypocritical, isn't it, wanting to join the nuclear defence

pact? Then you'd accuse the members of Natal who do not have nuclear

weapons is being hypocritical. Scotland should be in the, not least

because of the strategic position we hold. If you look at things just

now, we do not have another time... Maritime patrols we should have if

we are part of Natal Dominic NATO `` NATO. We have what we do not need,

which is hugely expensive nuclear weapons. George Robertson's view is

that Russia should be part of NATO in Scotland should not. What would

be the danger of not being a member of NATO for just one day, as you

say? It has been a corner stone of his and security in the UK for

decades now. We work together with countries around the world. Future

is working together with partners around the world. Not trying up the

drawbridge, isolationist, nationalist perspectives. Why

couldn't an independent Scotland work with other partners around the

world? He could but we would have to start from scratch. The UK has long

established partnerships with other countries. We have agreements with

other countries around the world and a seat at the top table in them

actually. It is questionable that Scotland, as an independent country,

would have the same influence. Most people would not think it would have

that. I urge people that if they are undecided about this issue, take

just defence as one issue. Scotland would be less safe as an independent

country than it currently is now with the UK. Surveys show that the

vast majority of people do not want to lose the UK Armed Forces, even if

Scotland were to go independent, people say that. The reality is, on

our own, we would be on our own and would not have the security of the

UK Armed Forces. Very briefly, is defence a decisive issue for many

voters? It is important. It will that come to see me who have been

served P 45 is acting to find out about a Scottish defence force. Real

difference for Scotland, not nuclear weapons. Stay with me now if you

would for a second. We're going to look at the comments made by the

moderator of the Church of Scotland. Well, the moderator of the Church

of Scotland has urged both sides in the referendum debate to treat

each other with respect. As the campaign nears its climax,

there's some concern that the passionate arguments

on both sides should not boil over into aggressive behaviour. Lots of

people have been talking about the issue on social media. Let's have a

quick look. still with me. Things are getting

pretty heated. Some people are getting heated and passionate and

that's on both sides, but what has struck me is the level of

engagement. There were queues outside registration offices last

night. Of course one or two people will upset the balance of that and

that should be condemned, but this has been a great campaign. We should

come together on the 19th of September for the good of Scotland.

Have people been passionate about this? They have. I've had great

discussions with people, no this? They have. I've had great

matter how they are going to vote. We have had an unpleasant tone to

this. There are people who have participated in an aggressive way.

It needs to stop. Thank you for talking to us tonight. In the

referendum trail today, Nicola Sturgeon launched a campaign to

target Labour voters. Alistair Darling was confident Labour backers

would remain with the union. 1947, Scottish miners help the

nationalisation of their industry by the post`war Labour government. It

helped to embed Labour in Scotland's psyche and they have a

power base which is now facing opposition. This is Labour

territory, but in Hollywood, it's SNP territory. `` President

Hollande. `` Holyrood. There are Labour candidates and the SNP. I am

campaigning with a clear and direct message to Labour supporters in

Scotland to say to them that yes is the best way to building a fairer

Scotland, to make sure we can stop the assault on the vulnerable,

protect our health service and make sure we never have two puts up with

a Tory government we don't vote for. Alistair Darling sees things the

other way round. In Aberdeen he says many who have voted for the SNP

previously are ready to now turn out for the union. I am confident we

will get to big vote and the majority of people who do vote

Labour will come with us. They want better jobs, better pensions, better

health service and the future for the family. They are not prepared to

put up with unanswered questions. It is a fight and a big choice. And

finally, sport. This referendum is not all grim politics. The two

candidates here contested a penalty shoot outs in support of a charity

for motor neuron disease. Blair Jenkins saw his shot saved, being

better together to claim victory. Harmony for a group calls. Voters

will decide who is over the moon after polling day.

Stay with BBC News that the latest on the Scottish referendum. Tomorrow

we will be on the campaign Trail with Ed Miliband as he urges

traditional Labour voters to vote no. Lots more information available

as well on our website. That is all from me tonight. You can join us

every night at 7:30pm and 9:30pm. Until then, good buy. `` goodbye.

Delegates at the NATO summit are to be asked to pay over $5 billion a

year to help fund Afghanistan's armed forces. With the country in

political paralysis because of a disputed election, Afghanistan will

be represented, not by a President, but its Defence Minister. The armed

forces are improving in quality, partly through better officer

training, at an academy modelled on Sandhurst. David Loyn has been out