Spotlight Special Spotlight


Spotlight Special

Noel Thompson presents debate with DUP MP Ian Paisley, Education Minister John O'Dowd, Justice Minister David Ford, rights campaigner Goretti Horgan and media lawyer Paul Tweed.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to this Spotlight special when our studio audience

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has a chance to put questions to our panel, some of whom take

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decisions which affect our daily lives. We had Sinn Fein's education

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minister. The rights campaigner Chris Morgan. Justice Minister and

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Alliance leader David Ford. The national media lawyer Paul Tweed.

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The DUP MLA for North Antrim, Ian Questions tonight come from members

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of our studio audience that it is just as important that you contact

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Calls cost up to five pence per minute from most landmines, calls

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from mobiles may cost considerably more. Text messages will be charged

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at your standard rate. Our first question is from a CAA her from

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Belfast. Are we expected to believe that welfare reform is about

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encouraging people back to work, then there are no jobs?

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Assembly has been debating the Welfare Reform Bill, a Westminster

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Bill which has the aim of making it easier for people to work than on

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benefits. We have to start this one with you. The question is, can it

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work? If the jobs were there it might work. The problem is the jobs

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are not there and additionally, quite a lot of the reforms affect

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people already working, so some of the benefits let disability living

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allowance, these are benefits that people in work actually get. So the

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idea that it is really just about encouraging people into work and

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not about cutting costs... But they will continue to get those benefits.

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It is not that simple at all. For example, in the case of Disability

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living Allowance, which will be replaced by the universal credit,

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we really do not know yet, from Britain and not just from here, how

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that will work. We have been told that people with mental health

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difficulties and perhaps even people with learning disabilities

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will not be looked after in quite the same way, and this is from

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Britain, by the personal independence payment. Campaigners

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would hope that the Assembly would actually look clause by clause, not

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just this all or nothing approach, to throw it out or go back to

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Westminster, whatever, but actually do their jobs as elected

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representatives and draws applause go through the bill and say, what

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is there when -- go through it clause by clause and say, what do

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we want for Northern Ireland? party wants to defer it. Why?

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those exact reasons. It also needs a clause by clause informed

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negotiation with the British Government and we have had several

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discussions both at a party level, an Executive level, we have had

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platitudes today. There has been no change in the fundamentals around

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the bill. This is not about putting people back in employment. It is

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about cutting money. It is about an attempt to bring us out in -- out

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of recession. We are saying, send a clear message to the British

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Government that the Assembly will not introduce a flawed bill that

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will not meet the needs of the people here. All the Executive

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parties showed a determined voice to the British Government that we

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will influence policy. Your party has accused Sinn Fein of breast-

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beating, but there are no jobs for people to be encouraged into, are

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they? We have to separate these matters into their proper areas.

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Yes, there is a recession. There is a complete lack of jobs and funding

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opportunities. But we are dealing with welfare reforms. Let's deal

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with that. The facts of the matter of this, I do not like the welfare

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reforms being introduced by Westminster. That is why I voted

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against it in wealth that -- in Westminster. That is why I did my

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job there. It is unfortunate that other members and other parties

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elected to Westminster did not do that as well. They could have

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played, Sinn Fein in particular, a more active role in addressing this

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issue where it ought to have been addressed. In terms of where we are

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now in our Assembly, which was passed to implement Parity issues...

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It does not matter whether... are a crown minister, you will be

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implemented in these measures no matter how much you beat your chest

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tonight. No, we don't have to... We can shape the legislation... John,

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you will have your turn again. will be implementing these changes.

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That is the bottom line. You should not treat your electorate and the

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people at their like... Are there are three issues... Address the

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jobs issue. We do not change the issues by killing the bill, even

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though I do not like it. We change it by amending it, by negotiation

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and by talking to the public. That is why our minister has been back

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and forward on these issues and why, during the negotiations that the

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Assembly will go through, we should try to get three changes. We should

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try to make sure that direct payments are made not to the

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individual who has to claim the benefits, but to the landlord Stott

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-- but to the landlord... Let me stop you there. These are key

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issues that affect the individuals. The other key issue is... You have

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been talking for a long time. Let David Ford answer the question. You

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have had a long answer. You may say they are tinkering. The reality is

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we do not have the choice to set up our own welfare system. We will be

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spending in excess of �2 million a week do not have. We would have to

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set up our own computer system. We simply cannot do it. It is a

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fiction to suggest that in any meaningful sense we could change

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the welfare system. What we can do is what has been described as

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tinkering around the edges, which is finding things like direct

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payment to landlords, looking out weekly payments rather than monthly

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payments. Buyers are areas where we do have some latitude. -- those are

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some areas where we have some latitude. Blocking the bill will

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result in all our constituents on the 1st April losing their benefits,

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losing access to things like the Social Fund as they currently exist,

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and we will all be the poorer for it. You do not get anywhere

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negotiating with the current Government by saying, we will harm

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our constituents. You are a chief Executive officer, you presumably

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create jobs at some level. Do you think the politicians are talking

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about the right issues? I work across west Belfast and Shankill on

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employment policy, trying to get people into employment. The

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underlying concern I have is that if we are to move people into the

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employment, you have to have jobs there, but all the evidence shows

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the jobs are coming at higher levels requiring higher skills

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levels. The areas I work in, you are talking 70 to 80% of the

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population have low or no qualifications. What am not seeing

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are the back-up policies and the programmes that are going to help

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those people get the appropriate levels of skills to get jobs in the

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future. Given that this is the opportunity for us all to work

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together rather than mud-slinging, could we not join in one common

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cause to work for each one of the population in this country, and two

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were positively and constructively, instead of this clause by clause

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more time-wasting? Whip are not only at the 11th hour, but the 12th

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hour. Can we just move on instead of being negative, and why can we

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not see this as an opportunity? I have had mental health needs for

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things myself, so if I had not had a hope all these years I would not

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be able even to speak about it. What is your perspective, Paul

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Tweed? I think this legislation will inevitably be passed in

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Northern Ireland. We have to focus on two core issues, employment and

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jobs, and secondly, on ensuring that the most needy get the benefit

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of money that is going to be available after all this. In

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relation to jobs, I am an employer and I am absolutely depressed with

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the number of young students coming in looking for training contracts

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with us and we are just having to say no, there is no prospect at all.

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It has been a major challenge for my firm to keep people in work. We

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have managed to do that during this very difficult recession and I

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think it is lightly important that we do not waste time trying to

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fight of legislation. -- righty important. It is important that we

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try to look at how to get jobs. I spent two months in the United

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States this summer trying to encourage people to come to Belfast,

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open businesses in Belfast. We have a lot going for us at the moment,

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particularly with the good feelings that the golfers have produced for

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us and we have to concentrate our energy on getting jobs into the

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What about this mud slinging? of the things we are united on is

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that we want to see corporation tax, a reduction, brought to Northern

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Ireland. The power to reduce that tax. That will give the ministers,

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that will give the Executive, that will give the Assembly the ability

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to woe and attract new potential employers to Northern Ireland on

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the basis that there will be a lower tax take from them. They will

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be able to put that money back into resource and development and create

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more employment. We do need to generate more employment. Everyone

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knows around here, the world is going through a recession. It's

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hard on everyone. It's particularly hard on us because we are on the

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edge, of the edge of the periphery. Sir. No-one has mentioned what a

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lot of people feel this could be, an attack by a Tory government on

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the working-class and the poor. If they are trying to save �10 billion

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of the welfare reform, it's the most poor and most vulnerable

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people in society who will suffer. That is the latest round the �10

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billion? The banks caused the recession, we should be taxing the

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banks and tack taxing the rich and having a fair distribution of

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wealth within the society. You, sir. I find it interesting listening to

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politicians in the Assembly wringing their hands about job

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creation when they wasted an amazing opportunity with the green

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new deal to create 2,000 real jobs that would have made warmer homes

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for some of our poorest people and saved us money in the winter

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payment, �12 million was spent on boilers. That is major job creation

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wasted by your party. You did nothing to stop it. Neither did you.

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Failure by the Executive to stand up to a shocking decision by the

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DUP. Absolutely shocking. Lots going on here. Address this

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question. These welfare reforms are coming in very soon. The jobs will

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be a long time in the pipeline? Paisley Jr told this audience and

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the listeners beyond this studio that he does not agree with the

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Welfare Reform Bill. I voted against it. Shefrpblgts prepared to

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introduce the same Bill even though he opposed it. So will you? We will

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not support the bill as currently framed. We have brought forward

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reasonable amendments and we are involved in negotiations with the

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British government. The DUP are saying, we are negotiating with it

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and accused us of a sham fight. With serious consequences. They are

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involved in a sham negotiation. They are sitting here saying, we

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don't like it... If it costs us �200 million... You are shaking

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your head. That is pulled out of the air. If the Welfare Reform Bill

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is introduced it will remove �500 million of spending power from the

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economy here over two-and-a-half years. �500 million will be

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withdrawn. You have the facts and figures. DUP says it will cost us

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�200 million if we don't go-ahead and retain parity, the same

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benefits all over the United Kingdom. It is possible for us to

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maintain parity and yet have some differences. There is no way, for

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example, we can stop universial credit coming. In I would like to,

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we would not be able to. Thank you. You will support. It I was going to

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give some examples where we could make difference s. We could decide,

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for example, to exclude the most vulnerable, the people who are

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severely disabled from the assessment procedure for the

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personal independence paymept. We would not bring in the bedroom tax,

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the under occupancy until we have a housing stock that is suitable for

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our families. If we did those things and costed them I believe

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the politicians that they are looking to see what changes we can

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make and how... Some of those changes... We have to go to the

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audience. Ian Paisley Jr cut about cutting corporation tax. Many

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companies show that handouts to big business don't provide jobs. We

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should be using the money wasted by Invest NI to create decent jobs and

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stimulate the local economy. lady in front. I think this lady

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has made great sense because, yes, welfare reform is necessary and I

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think we would all agree with that. The timing is probable wrong. I

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think, I suppose, there is no such thing as a good time. We don't have

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the houses. We don't the facilities. We don't have the jobs. People are

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dealing with huge levels of anxiety. I work in the voluntary sector.

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They are distraught at the minute as to what their future will look

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like with the potential of losing work and not knowing what way their

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benefits will pan out. They can't budget. The whole thing is

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catastrophic at the moment. The idea that something else is coming

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in is detrimental to everybody. need to move on. Thank you for that

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question. Second question is from Mr Bell a student from Bangor.

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Doesn't the defeat of equal marriage at the Assembly last week

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send out the wrong message to young people suffering from homophobic

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bullying? The Assembly or the motion did not pass the Assembly

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because the DUP made it a petition of concern. It meant it needed

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cross community support. You said in the past you are repulsed by it

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you voted against it? I am not a member of the Assembly. Your party

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didn't support it. You would have supported that position. I believe

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that marriage is, as the law defined since 1866, between one man

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and one woman. I think that people should respect that. That is the

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law. I think, more importantingly, that to change that so fund

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mentally and to turn around and say, we will change it to a man and a

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man and a woman and a woman, that attacks my rights and the rights of

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hundreds of thousands of people in society who believe that marriage

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is between a man and a woman. are entitled to retain that belief?

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I think you undermine something which is for a whole host of

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reasons has deep seated respect and honour across this society. If we

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do that, I think that we will undermine the rights and liberties

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of a host of people. I think that if people want, for example, and

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they are entitled in law to get into civil... Giving people more

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rights would undermine rights, I don't understand that? They are

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entitled to get into civil partnerships. Why has the notion of

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marriage have to be taken away and polluted in that way? I think that

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is wrong. I think we should stand up for marriage, Champion marriage

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and protect marriage. Goretti Horgan? I'm not into marriage all

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that much myself. As a socialist I support the right of anybody who is

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in a loving relationship to get married if that that is what they

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want. I think a bigger issue for Northern Ireland is the issue of

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gay adoption. I have friends who are bringing up children together...

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We must try and stick to the question, if we can. It is only

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fair. As we speak, our Attorney- General, I don't know on whose

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behalf he is doing, is intervening in a case on the... We are going

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down a road we are not ready to go down. I support the right for

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equality for everybody. I don't believe that Ian is right in saying

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that giving rights to one group of people undermines everybody else's

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rights. Why should it? As far as I'm aware we live in a democracy.

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Everyone should have the right to choose how they live their life. My

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concern on this is that Northern Ireland does not want to give the

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impression to the outside world we are some form of backward or

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intolerant society. We are doing a good job of doing that. This would

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be another scenario where we have to move with the times. People

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should have the right to choose. The man in the front row there.

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pointed out there that you said "your rights and hundreds of

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thousands of people's rights would be affected" a person's right to

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freedom ends when you encroach on the civil liberties of other person.

:20:47.:20:52.

What makes you different from me? Your civil liberties aren't

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affected by choosing the term marriage. Can you have a civil

:20:59.:21:08.

partnership? That's not marriage. Why have a two-tier system? The law

:21:08.:21:14.

is 1860 is a man to a woman. Change it? There is a definition of

:21:14.:21:18.

marriage. Change the definition. And say you are a woman. You are

:21:18.:21:23.

clearly not, you are a man. The definition of marriage is a man to

:21:24.:21:31.

a woman. That is what the law says. We are saying relationships can

:21:31.:21:35.

change. Let him speak. My point is you are saying, you are basing it

:21:35.:21:40.

on the biblical sense of one man and one women. If you believe in

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the biblical sense of slavery. You cherry pick what is right to

:21:45.:21:49.

your own argument and use them to your own ends.

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APPLAUSE I will let you answer. There is a

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lot of people to get involved. didn't introduce the issue of the

:21:59.:22:02.

Bible into the conversation. Ian. Will you have plenty of an

:22:02.:22:12.
:22:12.:22:13.

opportunity to talk. No, I won't. This man. My question is Ian

:22:13.:22:16.

Paisley Jr is speaking about our society and what our society is

:22:16.:22:21.

built upon and undermining our society... Ian. This is not the Ian

:22:21.:22:25.

Paisley Show. There are a lot of people who want to say something

:22:25.:22:32.

here. Would you allow me to conduct the debate. My question is, Mr Ian

:22:32.:22:35.

Paisley Jr is speaking about our society and what our society is

:22:35.:22:39.

built upon. We have a situation where in the Scottish Parliament is

:22:39.:22:44.

looking like it will pass this motion, David Cameron today in fact

:22:44.:22:48.

said that he is still dedicated to making sure equal marriage goes

:22:48.:22:51.

through in England and Wales am we are looking at a situation in

:22:51.:22:55.

Scotland, England and Wales there will be full equal marriage quality

:22:55.:22:58.

and in Northern Ireland there won't be. Once again, we will be behind

:22:58.:23:02.

the times on that. It will be a ridiculous situation. Whereas the

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member and citizen of Northern Ireland I could go to England,

:23:05.:23:10.

Scotland and Wales and get married and come home here and find the

:23:10.:23:16.

unionist government has ensured my marriage is not recognised what so

:23:16.:23:20.

ever. David Ford your party said same-sex marriage was a policy.

:23:20.:23:25.

Half your party didn't turn up on the vote and one allegedly voted

:23:25.:23:29.

against it. What message is Alliance sending out? It is an

:23:29.:23:35.

issue that is very difficult. We had a good question about jobs that

:23:35.:23:41.

got hijacked. We had a serious question about homophobic bullying

:23:41.:23:49.

we are having a spat about the marriage issue. I have to deal with

:23:49.:23:54.

it in the context of hate crime. There is also issue about

:23:54.:23:56.

homophobic hate crime which gets swept under the carpet because

:23:56.:24:01.

people don't want to talk about. It it's an issue for John in terms of

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schools and in terms of further and higher education. We need to

:24:05.:24:09.

address the issue of how all our citizens are treated in that

:24:09.:24:13.

respect. Not happened with your party having a split personality on

:24:13.:24:17.

it? Those who took the same line as Ian has just put forward, because

:24:17.:24:23.

they have a particular issue about marriage, are not necessarily

:24:23.:24:27.

supporting homophobia. questioner has linked the two?

:24:27.:24:32.

not sure the link entirely works. I will give you an xarm example, one

:24:32.:24:38.

of my MLAs who abstained because of his religious beliefs about the

:24:38.:24:44.

word "ministerage "wtion who made an issue on the ban on gay blood

:24:44.:24:48.

donation. There are issues about how we provide equality across

:24:48.:24:51.

society. There are particular difficulties with some people that

:24:51.:24:55.

need to be recognised in the term "marriage." We have a society that

:24:55.:25:01.

is changing to recognise the rights of all. Why is it a party policy if

:25:01.:25:07.

the party is not going to follow it? The majority of our represent

:25:07.:25:10.

ifs will. In the motion that came forward in the Assembly we did not

:25:10.:25:16.

have more than half of us. You have been waiting. It's interesting that

:25:16.:25:19.

Ian used the legislative definition. He didn't use the Bible in that

:25:19.:25:23.

debate. That call noose question, legislators are elected to make

:25:23.:25:27.

laws and change laws. If he is relying on the legislative

:25:27.:25:30.

definition of marriage that can be changed. In my opinion, it should

:25:30.:25:34.

be changed. It won't be. Well, we have been told that around these

:25:34.:25:40.

islands it's changing all the time. I have sat in numerous studios with

:25:40.:25:44.

unionist politicians who told me something won't happen and it does

:25:44.:25:48.

happen. Like welfare reform? believe that given the debate in

:25:48.:25:52.

the Assembly, given there was a narrow vote on it and changing

:25:52.:25:57.

public opinions in regard this matter, a more openness in our

:25:57.:26:01.

society to think differently to we once dead that marriage equality

:26:01.:26:06.

for homosexual relationships will come into play. The gentleman here.

:26:06.:26:16.
:26:16.:26:16.

Because we can't examine the relationship because we don't have

:26:16.:26:21.

transparency to financial donations it means we can't see who are

:26:21.:26:25.

pulling the strings. We don't know if it is something they believe in

:26:25.:26:35.
:26:35.:26:46.

or something their supporters Surely you have a right to protect

:26:46.:26:50.

your home without repercussions. Tony Martin was jailed for shooting

:26:50.:26:56.

someone who intruded into his home. The question is, is your home

:26:56.:27:01.

Newcastle and what should you or should you not be allowed to do?

:27:01.:27:08.

am not sure exactly what the Justice Secretary his planning for

:27:08.:27:10.

England and Wales but it seems to me what is going through is a

:27:10.:27:13.

process in which having an established common-law definition

:27:13.:27:20.

which applies in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, you are entitled

:27:20.:27:24.

to use reasonable force to defend your property and to defend

:27:24.:27:30.

yourself and other people. This has been put into law or ready for

:27:30.:27:33.

England and Wales which simply codified what has been common law

:27:33.:27:38.

for centuries, and now it seems they are going a bit further. It

:27:38.:27:43.

has been done in the speech at the Tory conference. A different

:27:43.:27:47.

question is what appears in legislation at Westminster. I am

:27:47.:27:51.

not convinced it is anything more than a speech for the party

:27:51.:27:58.

faithful. What we already have in Northern Ireland is about defence

:27:58.:28:03.

and we do not need to codify it because the common law is clear.

:28:03.:28:09.

The Tory party conference has been interesting. They have created

:28:09.:28:13.

headlines around every think other than the rail issue, which we need

:28:13.:28:19.

to be discussing. I think this has been on purpose. The law says you

:28:19.:28:24.

can use reasonable force to defend yourself and your family home. I do

:28:24.:28:30.

not see any need for anything more. Took -- two men went to jail for

:28:31.:28:35.

defending their homes. One was jailed because he took unlawful

:28:35.:28:44.

action. Do find that. The court decided whether he was in the law

:28:44.:28:51.

or not. I am not in a position to qualify that but if a law is set it

:28:51.:28:56.

is up to a gentle and jury whether the law has been breached or not.

:28:56.:29:01.

But what should you be allowed to do to defend your home, Paul Tweed?

:29:01.:29:05.

If you are in your bedroom and you find somebody there with a baseball

:29:05.:29:10.

bat, you know it is not Santa clause. So you are going to react

:29:10.:29:13.

whatever way were instincts tell you. That would be to defend

:29:13.:29:18.

yourself, think of your family and at the end of the day, it is very

:29:18.:29:21.

difficult for any clarification of the law to help you in that

:29:21.:29:25.

situation because you are not going to start thinking, am are going to

:29:25.:29:30.

go after this guy it with a baseball bat myself? And you do not

:29:30.:29:35.

have time to think of that. People are struggling about whether we are

:29:35.:29:40.

going towards the American way aware not only can you defend

:29:40.:29:48.

yourself if you find somebody in your bedroom, but if you manage to

:29:48.:29:53.

produce a shotgun while he is running out, is that right? That

:29:53.:29:56.

cannot be right. There is a difference between defending

:29:56.:30:01.

yourself and your property and seeking retribution. We mentioned

:30:01.:30:05.

Mr Hussein who chased after people who had held him captive and beat

:30:05.:30:09.

one of them with a cricket bat, leaving him with brain damage. He

:30:10.:30:13.

was sentenced to jail but the sentence was reduced and suspended

:30:13.:30:18.

because the judge said the call of Mercy had to be answered and this

:30:18.:30:25.

seemed exceptional circumstances. am not to gone on vigilante law.

:30:25.:30:31.

That is not vigilante law. He did run after them. To be perfectly

:30:31.:30:36.

honest, I think what David has said is absolutely right. The judge and

:30:36.:30:40.

jury can decide these things, but I thought that question was being

:30:40.:30:46.

asked about people who were likely to be evicted because of a result

:30:46.:30:52.

of the welfare reforms. I genuinely thought that! It is not just a one-

:30:52.:30:57.

track mind. There are going to be many people facing this. A very

:30:57.:31:02.

different issue. Ian Paisley. What do you think about it? What do you

:31:02.:31:06.

think you should be allowed to do? I think you should be allowed to

:31:06.:31:09.

protect yourself, your family and your property and you should be at

:31:09.:31:13.

all to do that in a way that is acceptable and is proportionate to

:31:13.:31:18.

the threat that his post. So for example, where does that threat

:31:18.:31:23.

end? Does it end when they have let your house, been chased from your

:31:23.:31:27.

house and gone to your yard and have stolen your property and could

:31:27.:31:33.

come back, or of fleeing...? There are all the things that would have

:31:33.:31:37.

to be balanced in the circumstances. You are entitled to protect

:31:37.:31:45.

yourself, your family and property and you can use reasonable. The --

:31:45.:31:51.

you can use reasonable force. The burglar has more rights than the

:31:51.:31:55.

victim. There is clearly that feeling. Whether that is right or

:31:55.:31:59.

not, that feeling is there. We have to racial society feels protected

:31:59.:32:03.

enough and feels they have the right to protect themselves if they

:32:03.:32:08.

are faced with that terrible intrusion of someone in their

:32:08.:32:13.

property. It is only when you have been burgled that you have that

:32:13.:32:17.

feeling that lasts forever. Gentleman in the second back growth.

:32:17.:32:24.

I think it is a wider thing we think the law that people who come

:32:24.:32:26.

into Croke seem to get more rights than the person who has been

:32:26.:32:31.

affected by the crime. I do not think it is just to do with

:32:31.:32:36.

burglary but other laws, too. law graduate who has been burgled,

:32:36.:32:42.

I think that reasonable force, if you take it one step too far and

:32:42.:32:52.
:32:52.:32:53.

you make that extra punch, you can end up in court whereas, I do not

:32:53.:32:56.

think of what is reasonable force gives you any comfort living in

:32:56.:33:03.

your own home. There is already a law in regards this matter. It is

:33:03.:33:10.

difficult to deal with these situations. When you buy it from

:33:10.:33:13.

your sleep and there was a burglar in your hand, when do you stop

:33:13.:33:19.

defending yourself? That is the difficulty in the law. But I would

:33:19.:33:25.

favour changes in the law if it was to improve the law but this notion

:33:25.:33:30.

from the Tory conference that we go towards the American way of

:33:30.:33:35.

shooting them when they come in or go out of the door, it is not right.

:33:35.:33:39.

If someone is going to cause serious harm to you, if they have a

:33:39.:33:43.

baseball bat or a knife, you know they are going to cause serious

:33:43.:33:48.

harm. It is whether they are stopped from being able to cause

:33:48.:33:52.

serious harm and I think the law is on your side when you do that.

:33:52.:33:55.

People who are potential victims have to know that they can stop

:33:55.:34:04.

that person from doing them harm. We need to move on. Question four.

:34:04.:34:09.

From a trade union official from Tyrone. With 24 % of Arjun people

:34:09.:34:17.

unemployed, is it time to start the wreath hiring of ex-police officers.

:34:17.:34:23.

-- with 24 % of our young people employed, is it time to start

:34:23.:34:32.

employing a gain ex-police officers. Some people said contracts being

:34:32.:34:37.

handed out at a tender was out of control. I do not think it is out

:34:37.:34:42.

of control than that evolution has happened. There is youth

:34:42.:34:46.

unemployment and the issue of hiring a game. I do not think you

:34:46.:34:50.

can equate the two things. Policemen were hired again because

:34:50.:34:54.

they had a particular task. That was not necessarily something that

:34:54.:35:00.

could be done by unemployed 21- year-old. One was employed as a

:35:00.:35:04.

transport assistant. Those issues are clearly now being addressed by

:35:04.:35:07.

the Policing Board which has a responsibility with the chief

:35:07.:35:10.

constable for dealing with these matters. It is not something which

:35:10.:35:19.

comes directly to the department but in terms of the political area,

:35:19.:35:24.

it seems to be clear across all parties what is expected. We need

:35:24.:35:28.

to make clear what happened. We also need to recognise that ten

:35:28.:35:35.

years on, the message the chief constable is giving his... And we

:35:35.:35:38.

have to look at the issue of what we are going to do with unemployed

:35:38.:35:45.

young be well. Do you want heads to roll? Whose head? Those who were

:35:45.:35:51.

their ten years ago who have promptly retired? Even when you get

:35:51.:35:54.

to the point of a Public Accounts Committee you ring which is due to

:35:54.:35:57.

happen in the Assembly, those facing it will be the current

:35:57.:36:00.

permanent secretary of the Department of Justice, not the

:36:00.:36:03.

Northern Ireland Office, the current chief constable, not the

:36:03.:36:07.

previous chief constable, the current chief exec did you got the

:36:07.:36:12.

Policing Board, not the previous one. So when you talk about heads

:36:12.:36:16.

rolling, most of them rolled out of the door a long time ago.

:36:16.:36:19.

Paisley, Edge Hill party has a split on this. Jonathan crake was

:36:19.:36:25.

critical of the lack of transparency, -- your party has a

:36:25.:36:35.
:36:35.:36:35.

split on this. So which stands do you take? I think that is the BBC

:36:35.:36:41.

trying to find a street where there is not a sprint. They are two valid

:36:41.:36:47.

but separate arguments and they are part of a series of arguments. --

:36:48.:36:53.

trying to find a split when there is not a split. Ex-police officers

:36:53.:36:58.

are entitled to be in a job. A lot of these officers for historic

:36:58.:37:02.

reasons got those jobs back in the process. Where there have been

:37:02.:37:06.

procedures that are wrong and abuse to the system, that should be

:37:06.:37:10.

identified, as has been done by the Audit Office. That should be

:37:10.:37:14.

rectified but a lot of this is now historic and I am fat the current

:37:14.:37:18.

chief constable and senior team have put considerable amounts of

:37:18.:37:22.

this right and are doing very well. Do you think it is entirely

:37:22.:37:25.

justifiable that one in five of them should be employed again, two

:37:25.:37:31.

of them before they had even left the RUC, hundred within a couple of

:37:31.:37:36.

months and that the average length of these temporary contracts was

:37:36.:37:41.

something like 233 days? There was a significant skill gap in the

:37:41.:37:46.

police service whenever they opened the doors and said, pay off and

:37:46.:37:50.

that is the end of Protestants in the policing service. That was the

:37:50.:37:55.

church -- short-term language for it. Then they realise, we have to

:37:55.:37:59.

get some of these people back in, and that is exactly what happened.

:38:00.:38:05.

We said at the end of 2001 this is too much, too fast, too far, but we

:38:05.:38:09.

knew the ambition was to get the change and the weak balance in the

:38:09.:38:14.

police service, which I am pleased with. I am delighted remain

:38:14.:38:18.

Katherine's want to be in the police. It is important we welcome

:38:18.:38:22.

that support but the change was too sudden and this is one of the

:38:22.:38:26.

consequences and we pay the price. It was not just jobs for the boys,

:38:26.:38:33.

as a party has claimed. Each post that was retired with a very

:38:33.:38:40.

generous retirement package had to be on the basis that it was surplus

:38:40.:38:44.

to requirement. Those posts were judged a substantial package was

:38:44.:38:48.

given to them and within a matter of days, weeks, months and years,

:38:48.:38:53.

those officers were brought back into the service. That is wrong and

:38:53.:38:57.

his is not that historical. The police board were giving the wrong

:38:57.:39:00.

information with regards to this matter right up until recently. It

:39:00.:39:07.

was a matter of months ago that the orders of this was called in. The

:39:07.:39:12.

Policing Board, a democratic body, gave wrong information. That has to

:39:12.:39:17.

be further investigated by the Policing Board. But the overriding

:39:17.:39:24.

issue in this, it is not this -- just the actual damage, it is also

:39:24.:39:31.

the potential damage to the policing process. The reader

:39:31.:39:34.

creation of a policing service serving all sections of the

:39:34.:39:38.

community was crucial and there were individuals, or a collective

:39:38.:39:44.

decision, to undo it. You were saying about young people who could

:39:44.:39:51.

be taking these jobs, but they might not be employed enough. Why

:39:51.:39:56.

don't we not cut EMA and provide more training for the sent people

:39:56.:39:59.

to go into the jobs? I guess the policing jobs are very specific

:39:59.:40:05.

jobs. Quite a lot of them, if you read the public accounts committee

:40:05.:40:09.

report, and you can Google it, you see a lot of the jobs they were

:40:09.:40:15.

doing when not particularly police jobs but at win jobs, drivers. That

:40:15.:40:18.

point about young people needing the jobs is what struck me

:40:18.:40:23.

immediately when I saw that over half the agency workers provided by

:40:23.:40:28.

the PSN eye over the last ten years work formally retired police

:40:28.:40:33.

officers. -- PSNI. I agree with John on this that there is a really

:40:33.:40:37.

big issue that we thought there was going to be a discontinuity between

:40:37.:40:41.

the old policing and the new policing. That has been completely

:40:41.:40:45.

undermined by the discovery that so many retired police officers,

:40:45.:40:50.

including special branch officers, are back in there. A colleague of

:40:50.:40:56.

mine from the University, when she was doing her research into the

:40:56.:41:00.

historical team, she found that large numbers of special branch

:41:00.:41:03.

officers actually involved in the intelligence unit. That is

:41:03.:41:10.

something that we all... If I took the same attitude as you, then Sinn

:41:10.:41:17.

Fein should not be entitled to jobs because of their baggage. Former

:41:17.:41:22.

police officers are entitled to jobs because of -- despite their

:41:22.:41:27.

baggage. But there is a continuity issue. The criteria for any job

:41:27.:41:31.

should be merit and suitability and it would be nice to think that that

:41:31.:41:35.

is being applied across the board in Northern Ireland. I may be being

:41:35.:41:42.

somewhat naive but that should be the only criteria. For example, the

:41:42.:41:47.

award of a contract worth �44 billion to a company with no

:41:47.:41:57.
:41:57.:42:03.

tendering process would be anti- The youth unemployment and the

:42:03.:42:10.

retiring and rehiring are both connected to austerity because it's

:42:10.:42:15.

privatisation and out sourcing which is happening to cuts to

:42:15.:42:17.

government budgets which facilitated this. The Audit Office

:42:17.:42:21.

said it was out of control. They are not giving to extravagant

:42:21.:42:25.

comment. They said it was out of control wesm need to ensure that

:42:25.:42:29.

public servants in the police are accountable and are directed by the

:42:29.:42:33.

Chief Constable and accountable to the Policing Board. In terms of

:42:33.:42:38.

youth unemployment, in Greece it's 55%. Here it's 24%. We are half way

:42:38.:42:46.

there. We have half way to misery that people in Greece are saying

:42:46.:42:50.

wesm need to do something about austerity before we get a visit

:42:50.:42:54.

from Angela Merkel. On 20th October there will be thousands of people

:42:54.:42:57.

in London, Glasgow and Belfast standing up against austerity.

:42:57.:43:06.

can move on to our next question. Do you not think that clerical

:43:06.:43:11.

sexual abuse would stop if priests were allowed to marry? This

:43:11.:43:16.

question is based on a statement from father don began. He has gone

:43:16.:43:21.

to California for a few months. He was saying that celibacy, the end

:43:22.:43:25.

of celibacy was inevitable. There simply weren't enough priests

:43:25.:43:29.

coming through and it would have to happen. We should say that there is

:43:29.:43:34.

no reason to say there is a direct link between celibacy and sexual

:43:34.:43:38.

abuse of children. Having said that, it is a big issue for the church.

:43:38.:43:43.

Where do you stand on that one? It's clearly about more than just

:43:43.:43:48.

celibacy. There is also sexual abuse in other churches where there

:43:48.:43:52.

are married priests or married elders, or whatever. I suspect it's

:43:52.:43:59.

go the more to do with attitudes to sexuality generally. A lot of the

:43:59.:44:03.

churches, Christian, other churches as well, do actually see sex as

:44:03.:44:09.

being something that is quite dirty or something that they are not

:44:09.:44:15.

wholesome. If you that all sex is somehow not wholesome that abusive

:44:15.:44:21.

sex is, you know, just... Is just on that same continuum of nastiness.

:44:21.:44:26.

That I think is the problem. All of the churches, all of the main

:44:26.:44:33.

churches that don't have an open view towards sexuality, churches

:44:33.:44:38.

that would see homosexuality as Knott being natural or any loving

:44:38.:44:42.

sex at nos natural that those by definition are leaving themselves

:44:42.:44:46.

open to people abusing sex in all kinds of ways, including abusing

:44:47.:44:52.

children. I don't think it's just the marriage issue. I think priests

:44:52.:44:58.

should be allowed to marry. This stipulation was introduced in the

:44:58.:45:06.

11th century by the church to it related to the Inamoto her itance

:45:06.:45:10.

of land issues. It's not appropriate for the individual

:45:10.:45:14.

priest concerned. I don't think it's achieving any purpose. I'm not

:45:14.:45:18.

a particularly religious person. It's an unfair comment for me to

:45:18.:45:23.

make. If you ask my personal view, I would back the freedom of choice.

:45:23.:45:31.

Having a situation where, you know,... I mean, people do have

:45:31.:45:35.

been casting observation that is the child abuse problem that

:45:35.:45:39.

appears tor to be rampant is, in some way, related to the fact that

:45:39.:45:42.

priests have not been allowed to marry. I don't know if that is

:45:42.:45:47.

correct or not. I would not be in a position to make that assessment. I

:45:47.:45:51.

think the church, it is for the church to decide and analyse, I

:45:51.:45:54.

think they should review the situation as to whether priests

:45:54.:46:00.

should be allowed to marry. Thank you. I think it would be a gd thing

:46:00.:46:06.

to look into allowing priests to marry. I think anything that could

:46:06.:46:11.

lessen the chance of child abuse or sexual abuse within the Catholic

:46:11.:46:18.

church would be a good thing and all right thinking beam think that.

:46:18.:46:21.

We are talking about marriage between a man and a woman in this

:46:21.:46:26.

case. Where would you stand on this. I hardly dare ask you? I'm glad

:46:26.:46:30.

that you were prepared at the beginning of your question to

:46:30.:46:34.

define the circumstances of this particular discussion. That because

:46:34.:46:40.

it's to do with a priest and because it's to do with celibacy

:46:40.:46:44.

there is no specific link to child abuse. I agree with you on that.

:46:44.:46:48.

Just as I agree with the point because I have a particular view on

:46:48.:46:53.

marriage doesn't make me homophobic. I think that it's important to that

:46:53.:46:58.

if what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I actually

:46:58.:47:05.

believe that the damage that is done to the Roman Catholic Church

:47:05.:47:10.

by not allowing their priests to marry, man to woman, I think that

:47:10.:47:14.

that damage speaks volumes. I think that it is unnatural to hold back

:47:14.:47:20.

that passion within a person to find that loving relationship and

:47:20.:47:23.

bond and it should be allowed and permitted. I think that the sooner

:47:23.:47:26.

the church address that is the much better for the society. By any

:47:26.:47:32.

definition, to say, as you did, some time ago you were repelled by

:47:32.:47:41.

homosexuality would be - I can be repulsed by someone but not hate

:47:41.:47:50.

someone. OK. We will leave it there. David Ford. Sorry. Married clergy,

:47:50.:47:54.

Catholic Church. I'm not sure I'm qualified to advise the Catholic

:47:54.:48:00.

Church on whether it should allow Catholic priests. I'm not qualified.

:48:00.:48:03.

You have raised an issue about child abuse which has occurred in a

:48:03.:48:07.

number of institutions, not merely the Catholic Church. I think the

:48:07.:48:12.

fact that we have seen revelations or at least allegations about the

:48:12.:48:16.

behaviour of a prominent television personality in the last week or so

:48:17.:48:20.

shows how embedded this culture that we don't respect children and

:48:20.:48:24.

that can lead to the point of serious abuse of them has to be

:48:24.:48:27.

addressed as a matter of grave concern. I used to do child

:48:27.:48:34.

protection work as a social worker. It is complex issue. One of the key

:48:34.:48:39.

issues is ensuring we don't have institutions that feel their duty

:48:39.:48:43.

is to defend the institution rather than deal with the perpetrator of

:48:43.:48:47.

these crimes. The gentleman here. think the Catholic Church, I think

:48:47.:48:52.

it's a mute point at the moment about them being allowed to marry

:48:52.:48:56.

because aI believe an abuser will always be an abuser and a

:48:56.:49:00.

paedophile will always be a paedophile no matter whether they

:49:00.:49:06.

are mafr married or not. Thing are clutching at straws. Thank you.

:49:06.:49:10.

has become relvapbts because of the reduction in the number of

:49:10.:49:13.

vocations in the chath Catholic Church. The status of a Catholic

:49:14.:49:21.

priest has changed massively. In years gone by it was to the

:49:21.:49:26.

advantage for the family to have a priest in the family. That has been

:49:26.:49:29.

reduced because of the scandal. Whether celibacy or married or

:49:29.:49:32.

women priest also change that, we don't know. There are jobs out

:49:32.:49:36.

there for young men in the priesthood if they want to get them.

:49:36.:49:44.

I don't think it's between marital status an abuse as one of the

:49:44.:49:49.

previous person said. They should allow their priests and nuns to

:49:49.:49:53.

marry. They should open their church. They should allow the

:49:53.:49:59.

greater involvement of the layette. They should demock ra ties the

:49:59.:50:09.

church to bring it back to the grassroots. The fact there was

:50:09.:50:14.

consistent abusers within their ranks has hurt many, many people.

:50:14.:50:20.

It has distanced Catholics from the church itself. They have to examine

:50:20.:50:30.
:50:30.:50:31.

it is own purpose but certainly allow its membership and clergy to

:50:31.:50:40.

reflect. Is Belfast on the move or is it a closed shop for drivers?

:50:40.:50:44.

The Belfast public and wider public has been exercised by the

:50:44.:50:47.

introduction of these bus lanes which believe have brought chaos.

:50:47.:50:54.

Others aren't too sure. What do our panel think? I only experienced

:50:54.:50:58.

them for the first time today. visitor what is your first

:50:58.:51:01.

impression? It was OK actually because there wasn't much traffic

:51:01.:51:05.

when I went through. It I think our public transport system in Northern

:51:05.:51:09.

Ireland is absolutely dreadful. We know it's the worst in the UK. We

:51:09.:51:14.

spend less on public transport than any other region of the UK. We know

:51:14.:51:20.

that, for example, our subsidy for public transport is about... I mean,

:51:20.:51:24.

it's a fraction of what it is in other regions of the UK. It really

:51:24.:51:28.

is time, if we had better public transport maybe we wouldn't have so

:51:28.:51:35.

many cars on the roond and we wouldn't need have all -- road and

:51:35.:51:40.

we wouldn't need to have all these traffic jams. Maybe they are doing

:51:40.:51:46.

the right thing? It has been the experience of many motorists. I

:51:46.:51:49.

haven't been in the thick of it. We have to examine our relationship

:51:49.:51:53.

with the car. There is no doubt about. That we have to look the at

:51:53.:51:57.

how we use and fulfill public transport. I welcome the fact that

:51:57.:52:01.

the DRD is involved with discussions with the Belfast City

:52:01.:52:04.

Council with representatives and they are monitoring the situation.

:52:04.:52:07.

I hope the difficulties faced by motorists are smoothed out. In a

:52:07.:52:11.

year's time or less, when we reflect on the Belfast bus lanes we

:52:11.:52:17.

say it was a good idea. I don't know whether it's psychological on

:52:17.:52:23.

my part. Since they introduced the lanes there seems to be fewer buses.

:52:23.:52:27.

It increases the temptation to do a quick right and zoom along. I

:52:27.:52:35.

haven't done it yet. Maybe you should. I'm for more buses driving

:52:35.:52:39.

on the streets in Northern Ireland or London or anywhere else.

:52:39.:52:43.

won't be able to buy the buses. use a bus and train three days

:52:43.:52:48.

every week. If we can get out of our cars and use bus and public

:52:48.:52:51.

transport it's better. We do not have sufficient infrastructure in

:52:51.:52:53.

Northern Ireland to make it work for thousands of people because we

:52:54.:52:57.

have a largely rural community. Whenever we think of everything in

:52:57.:53:03.

Belfast terms we get the clut they're we have under this current

:53:03.:53:07.

decision. There is no strategy. There is no buses, as you say, I

:53:07.:53:11.

think it's screwed up thinking not joined up thinking. You don't think,

:53:11.:53:15.

making it more unpleasant for motorists is not a bad policy to

:53:15.:53:20.

get people on the buses. That is not the answer. Not the answer.

:53:20.:53:24.

more. The lady here. Is there an opportunity for jobs then if we

:53:24.:53:27.

need to change our infrastructure to improve on the public transport,

:53:28.:53:34.

could we look at something for that for public spending? Just an idea?

:53:34.:53:39.

OK. David. We had a fundamental problem for a couple of generations

:53:39.:53:43.

planners have assumed that people in Belfast would travel in a

:53:43.:53:46.

private car. There is no wonder that the general public assumes

:53:46.:53:51.

they will travel in a private car if they can. If we hadn't had a

:53:51.:53:54.

sufficient lobby in the first Assembly when we developed the

:53:54.:53:57.

strategy we wouldn't have a train between Belfast and Derry or

:53:57.:54:00.

Belfast and Larne. They are not running from Coleraine at the

:54:00.:54:03.

moment anyway much we got some effort. We still have a transport

:54:03.:54:08.

policy which is grossly imbalanced away from public transport. A lack

:54:08.:54:12.

of subsidy. The only way you move people around cities is by public

:54:12.:54:15.

transport. That is the case in every other city in these islands.

:54:15.:54:20.

Frankly in every other city in Europe, Belfast is left in a time

:54:20.:54:25.

warp, spwr whack -- somewhere back in the 19 '50s that people will

:54:25.:54:32.

drive their cars and get places. That simply doesn't work. OK.

:54:32.:54:36.

regular bus... Two microphones. As a regular bus user I have to be

:54:36.:54:40.

honest they take so long and so irregular out where I am, it's

:54:40.:54:46.

nought near Ballyclare, they are once every hour, later on, I have

:54:46.:54:50.

to be honest I don't think that actions such as this should be

:54:50.:54:54.

taken in my name. We are only saving maybe 30 seconds or a minute

:54:54.:55:01.

going past St George's on the way to the Europa. It's adding minutes,

:55:01.:55:07.

10 to 15 minutes car driver user per person. A bus may have 20 to 30

:55:07.:55:11.

people on it because it's awful and it takes ages. I do not like the

:55:11.:55:15.

fact saying - it makes it better for the buses. Improving the buses

:55:15.:55:20.

would make it bet r for us. This has exercised the travelling public

:55:20.:55:24.

terribly over the last few weeks. There is a long way to go before we

:55:24.:55:33.

sort it out. Our final question from a managening Dr From Holywood.

:55:33.:55:39.

Which James Bond do the panel most I dent with and why? -- identify

:55:39.:55:48.

with and why? The 50th anniversary of Dr No. John O'Dowd probably Jaws,

:55:48.:55:55.

am I wrong? I was thinking of MiniMe. I'm a great fan of James

:55:55.:56:02.

Bond films, I have to say. When a question is thrown at you my mind

:56:03.:56:10.

goes blank. Go with Jaws. I'm not sure if I have seen an entire Bond

:56:10.:56:15.

film. Which actor? I couldn't identify with one of these actors.

:56:15.:56:20.

Daniel Craig in that little swimsuit. Steady on. This is a

:56:20.:56:25.

family show. David Ford. I would like to be Q I would like to have

:56:25.:56:31.

the ability to invent wonderful gadgets. It ties in with being

:56:31.:56:35.

Minister of Justice and fixing a system that doesn't work very well.

:56:35.:56:39.

And being a control freak? I leave it other people to do things like

:56:39.:56:45.

the Community Safety Strategy. James Bond makes me aware of my own

:56:45.:56:48.

mortality. You see the bonds through the years, as they were

:56:48.:56:54.

then and as they are now. You feel really old. I will go for Pierce

:56:54.:57:00.

Brosnan he is near my age. Just because of his age? I don't know.

:57:00.:57:05.

Roger Moore he was on TV recently, he is looking very old. I can

:57:05.:57:12.

remember as a young boy where he looked quite young. You become

:57:12.:57:15.

conscious of the ageing process yourself. I have to dye the hair

:57:15.:57:20.

here a wee bit. With your background your family would you

:57:20.:57:29.

have to be MiniMe, wouldn't you? Ha-ha. I'm sorry he is not a bond

:57:29.:57:34.

character. I'm delighted... Yes. I'm delighted. Never let the facts

:57:34.:57:40.

get in the way? You certainly wouldn't. You work for the BBC. I'm

:57:40.:57:44.

derighted -- delighted that John is supportive of a British secret

:57:44.:57:50.

agent. That is progress in my terms. Jaws. He wants to kill him. There

:57:50.:57:54.

has been some wonderful bond characters.

:57:54.:58:01.

APPLAUSE My faiv raid Bond was George

:58:01.:58:06.

Lasenbury. It was the Best Film, best script and story. I think the

:58:06.:58:12.

best Bond. I agree with you, I think Daniel Craig is making a good

:58:12.:58:17.

bash. I'm sorry to say that is where we must leave it. Thank you

:58:17.:58:21.

to my guests and to our studio audience. Thank you to you at home

:58:22.:58:26.

for watching. If you would like to talk about any of the subjects we

:58:26.:58:30.

DUP MP Ian Paisley, Education Minister John O'Dowd, Justice Minister David Ford, rights campaigner Goretti Horgan and media lawyer Paul Tweed take questions from a studio audience. Noel Thompson presents.


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