Browse content similar to 04/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's decision time for the paramilitaries. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:07 | |
Stormont has agreed another pot of money to encourage them away | 0:00:07 | 0:00:11 | |
from violence and crime. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
But this time it says if Republicans and Loyalists don't leave the stage, | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
a major crackdown is coming. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
Have previous government and police efforts to keep the men of violence | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
in the peace process, turned the paramilitaries into mafia | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
gangs that are too tough to crack? | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
Tonight, we focus on the activities of the UDA and how police | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
and government attempts to engage with its community representatives | 0:00:33 | 0:00:38 | |
have appeared to legitimise the organization and | 0:00:38 | 0:00:39 | |
undermine the rule of law. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:45 | |
And we ask is Stormont capable of putting the paramilitaries out | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
of business, once and for all? | 0:00:48 | 0:00:52 | |
It's Monday afternoon on the peace line between the Shankill | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
and the Falls. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
A steady stream of tourists comes to survey the wall of concrete | 0:01:24 | 0:01:29 | |
and steel that divides the two communities. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
It's territory that Shankill community worker | 0:01:31 | 0:01:32 | |
and Pastor Jack McKee knows well. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:38 | |
Well, I have led here virtually all my life. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
I am 64 years of age now. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:42 | |
My mother was from the Shankill. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:44 | |
Jack remembers the wall going up. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:48 | |
We knew that it was cutting off the other side from the Shankill | 0:01:48 | 0:01:53 | |
Road and it was removing some of the fear yes it was welcomed. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:58 | |
Nobody thought that it was going to be up for this long. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:06 | |
His work here is all about breaking down barriers. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:11 | |
There's a church, sports hall and a coffee shop attracting people | 0:02:11 | 0:02:14 | |
living on both sides of the wall. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:20 | |
The building was ideal because it literally straddles the Shankill | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
and Falls Road and it straddles both communities, | 0:02:22 | 0:02:24 | |
and for that reason both communities are coming into this | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
centre every single day. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:29 | |
But there is a problem. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:34 | |
So you are going to take me down to what is the peace line | 0:02:34 | 0:02:44 | |
and show me the gates? | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
The gates have been here since 1969. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
For nearly four years, Jack has been campaigning | 0:02:54 | 0:02:56 | |
to get the peace gate here at Northumberland Street | 0:02:56 | 0:02:58 | |
to stay open in the evening. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
It closes at 6:30pm. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:01 | |
Anyone wanting to come into our building from 6:30pm | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
at night need to, if they are coming from the Falls Road they need | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
to travel through the Shankill community. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
And, er, I am not suggesting that they are at risk, but that | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
certainly places them at more risk than having to just | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
come through... | 0:03:17 | 0:03:18 | |
To come through these gates. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:20 | |
We understand that a recent Housing Executive survey found that | 0:03:20 | 0:03:22 | |
a majority of people in the area had no problem with the gates | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
being opened later. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:26 | |
Stormont wants to remove all the interface barriers and walls | 0:03:26 | 0:03:29 | |
in the city by 2022. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:34 | |
It's seen as pivotal to a shared future. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
So why won't it open the gates later? | 0:03:36 | 0:03:46 | |
We've been told the answer is that loyalist paramilitaries | 0:03:48 | 0:03:53 | |
from the Shankill want the gates closed in the evening. | 0:03:53 | 0:03:58 | |
That as so-called defenders of the community, they want these | 0:03:58 | 0:04:00 | |
barriers kept in place. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:05 | |
Back in 2013, former Justice Minister David Ford met | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
Jack McKee and supported the idea of the gates opening later. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
He now confirms paramilitary representatives were pushing back | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
against the plan. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:21 | |
There were on the Shankill side of the line, those | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
who were literally regarding themselves as gatekeepers, | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
who sought to use influence to not have the gates | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
opened too much. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
And to be clear, the people on the Shankill side, | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
that were lobbying the department not to open the gates longer, | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
would it be fair to say they were representatives | 0:04:40 | 0:04:42 | |
of the UDA and UVF? | 0:04:42 | 0:04:43 | |
I couldn't attribute any individual to any specific organisation, | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
but that's certainly my belief, that there were links between, er, | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
some of those people, and the two organisations. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
This comes as little surprise to Jack McKee. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:59 | |
A senior police officer did say to me in front of two members | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
from department of justice that I was part of the problem | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
as I wouldn't go and talk to paramilitaries within the Shankill | 0:05:06 | 0:05:12 | |
Road about the opening of these gates. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:14 | |
I was affronted by that. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
I've been attacked by paramilitaries had my home attacked by them, | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
been sentenced to death by them. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
I buried young men in our church and other places murdered | 0:05:20 | 0:05:22 | |
by paramilitaries in our own community. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
Why would I want to talk to them about opening gates? | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
I want to talk to department of justice about these | 0:05:27 | 0:05:29 | |
gates being open. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:32 | |
Many people believe the way in which government and the PSNI | 0:05:32 | 0:05:37 | |
consult paramilitary representatives, grants these groups | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
an unofficial role in running and policing communities. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:45 | |
The PSNI does not deny a relationship with certain | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
paramilitaries and that relationship is now under scrutiny. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:53 | |
Jack McKee says a police chief inspector told him you need to go | 0:05:53 | 0:05:56 | |
and talk to the paramilitary. | 0:05:56 | 0:05:57 | |
Well, I don't know about the details of the gate opening | 0:05:57 | 0:06:02 | |
and who influences what over that. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
What I'm saying is, that we will not do anything to legitimise | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
paramilitary leaders as paramilitary leaders. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:12 | |
Now there is a grey area. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:14 | |
And for some reason, there's this schizophrenia where they're | 0:06:14 | 0:06:16 | |
a community representative by day and then they take a paramilitary | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
badge or label by night. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:20 | |
I'm not condoning that, I'm not an advocate for it, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
I think the paramilitary should go away, frankly. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:24 | |
I don't want to do anything to legitimise paramilitary groups | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
but there also needs to be a pragmatism around how | 0:06:27 | 0:06:29 | |
and when police engage with community representatives | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
who may still have some sort of paramilitary trappings associated | 0:06:33 | 0:06:35 | |
to them or are believed to be so. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
But let me be clear. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
We will never be so close to these people that we can't do our job. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:50 | |
It is 22 years ago this month that Loyalist paramilitaries | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
announced their ceasefire. | 0:06:57 | 0:07:02 | |
The combined Loyalist military command will universally cease | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
all operational hostilities as from midnight on Thursday, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
13th October 1994. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:16 | |
It was here at Fernhill House, at the top of the Shankill, | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
where that statement was made. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:28 | |
It was a ray of hope that the terrorists were on a path | 0:07:28 | 0:07:31 | |
to peace and disbandment. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:37 | |
But it's an event that's faded into history and in the intervening | 0:07:37 | 0:07:44 | |
years, there have been many more false dawns. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
As politicians, churchmen and even presidents have tried to convince | 0:07:47 | 0:07:49 | |
the UVF and UDA to leave the stage. | 0:07:49 | 0:07:55 | |
Last year, Stormont's Fresh Start Agreement acknowledged the extent | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
to which paramilitaries, on both sides of the divide, | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
remain woven into communities. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
And the political deal pledged a new effort to disband the groups. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:09 | |
A paramilitary disbandment panel was set-up to investigate | 0:08:13 | 0:08:15 | |
the problem and delivered a report in June this year. | 0:08:15 | 0:08:19 | |
It made for stark reading about the extent to | 0:08:19 | 0:08:21 | |
which paramilitaries control certain areas. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:30 | |
They are a threat to democracy and rule of law more than an actual | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
threat to the peace process. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:39 | |
On the Loyalist side, it was extremely worrying individual | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
gangsters and the structures of criminal gangs, | 0:08:42 | 0:08:47 | |
and the recruitment of young people not necessarily for the war, | 0:08:47 | 0:08:53 | |
but to do anti-democratic jobs, pushing drugs, selling drugs, | 0:08:53 | 0:09:03 | |
and that's controlling those young people and in a coercive fashion. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:09 | |
Once in, they couldn't get out. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:11 | |
That has to stop. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:12 | |
It reminded me of what I saw on the south side of | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
Chicago, with gangsters... | 0:09:15 | 0:09:16 | |
In 2016, come on. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:17 | |
This is the Lower Shankill, in 2016. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:23 | |
Nowhere has the paramilitary scourge been more overt over | 0:09:23 | 0:09:25 | |
the years than here. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:30 | |
20 years ago, this was home to Johnny Adair and his notorious | 0:09:30 | 0:09:36 | |
UDA unit, C Company. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:42 | |
Adair was ousted in a UDA coup, in 2003, but the paramilitary grip | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
on this area didn't end there. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:55 | |
It's early Saturday morning and this is the Shankill Estate. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:06 | |
One of the first things you're welcomed by is a UFF/UDA mural. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:13 | |
So there is a mix of murals, UFF graffiti, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
and UDA flags on houses. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:21 | |
More UDA plaques, there's definitely a stamp of authority on the estate. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:31 | |
There no doubt that the presence of the UDA and UFF is still here. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
Fear of the UDA stalks this community. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:40 | |
Over recent weeks, we've had to meet secretly with people from here | 0:10:40 | 0:10:44 | |
because they were frightened of being seen talking to us. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
They spoke of punishment beatings, attacks on homes, and exiling | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
of people, still happening on a regular basis. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
The victims are those who defy the UDA. | 0:10:56 | 0:11:01 | |
And most often young people. | 0:11:01 | 0:11:07 | |
One person who crossed the local UDA was 23-year-old Neil Orr | 0:11:07 | 0:11:10 | |
from the Shankill estate. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
He was a kind soul. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:14 | |
He was bubbly, he was funny. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
He was witty. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:21 | |
He would have given you his last. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
Just always there for everybody. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
Neil was addicted to his prescription medication and began | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
buying and selling extra tablets to feed this habit. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:35 | |
His cousin Tracey Coulter says this brought him to the attention | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
of C Company in July 2013. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:46 | |
She says the UDA demanded he join the organisation and sell | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
drugs for them. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:50 | |
But he said no. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
The torturing started. | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
You know, getting cars to drive past his house, or if he was | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
walking up the estate, cars was following behind him, | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
making him more paranoid than what he already | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
would have been. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:16 | |
Because he | 0:12:18 | 0:12:19 | |
did suffer from mental health issues as well? | 0:12:19 | 0:12:21 | |
The threats included these texts messages, which Tracey says | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
were from a senior UDA man on the Shankill, | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
sent to Neil's phone. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:26 | |
Under stress, Neil began taking more tablets. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:28 | |
He overdosed and died. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:31 | |
Our Neil left behind two kids and a pregnant girlfriend. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:36 | |
He didn't even get to see his other wee son being born. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:39 | |
He is missed. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:45 | |
It's hard when you know he's not... | 0:12:45 | 0:12:47 | |
You're not going to see him again. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:48 | |
Tracey blames the UDA for Neil's death. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
And the pressure put on him is not unique. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:56 | |
If you cross the UDA on the Shankill, | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
you pay the penalty. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
Last year, C Company members nailed one young man's hands | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
to a kitchen worktop. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:08 | |
We also know of parents, frightened their children | 0:13:08 | 0:13:11 | |
will face similar fates, having to take out loans | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
for hundreds of pounds | 0:13:13 | 0:13:14 | |
to pay-off debts their children owe the UDA for drugs. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:21 | |
So who are the people that run the Lower Shankill UDA or C Company | 0:13:21 | 0:13:24 | |
as it is known? | 0:13:24 | 0:13:26 | |
We met with a loyalist from the area. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:31 | |
He agreed to be interviewed if we protected his identity | 0:13:31 | 0:13:33 | |
as he fears for his safety. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
What he says echoes what others have told us. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
His words are spoken by an actor. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:42 | |
Nothing goes on without UDA's knowledge. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:45 | |
And if anybody does anything wrong, it'll be brought | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
to their attention by somebody. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
Most of them are thugs, that are into extortion, drug dealing. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
Anything to do with money, they're involved in it. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
Whether it's cigarettes, whether it's drink, | 0:13:54 | 0:13:56 | |
whether it's clothes, they're involved into that. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:02 | |
Spotlight has spoken to well-placed sources who have told us that | 0:14:02 | 0:14:05 | |
C Company is making between ?20,000 and ?40,000 a week profit | 0:14:05 | 0:14:10 | |
from the sale of drugs alone, mainly cocaine, cannabis | 0:14:10 | 0:14:15 | |
and prescription pills. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:18 | |
Three key men run C Company. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
Meet Mo Courtney. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
Now in his mid 50s, he was jailed in 1991 for robbery and hijacking, | 0:14:34 | 0:14:39 | |
and became a leading UDA figure in the Maze prison. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
This is him pictured during tensions at that | 0:14:43 | 0:14:45 | |
time of a loyalist feud. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:49 | |
He was later jailed for the manslaughter of Shankill | 0:14:49 | 0:14:51 | |
man Alan McCullough, who was killed by the UDA in 2003. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:57 | |
Mo Courtney's always had rank within C Company. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:02 | |
He used to be there with Johnny Adair, from that squad. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
Mo Courtney is the man who pulls the strings. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
Everything goes through Mo. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:10 | |
And this man is Dee Coleman, the 30-year-old so-called | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
Provost Marshal of C Company. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:19 | |
He joined the UDA as a boy, his first conviction was related | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
to the feud in 2000, when he was aged 14. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:27 | |
Our source says Coleman was a protege of Johnny Adair. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:32 | |
He started stealing cars for them. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
He just got involved in local thuggery, riots, things like that. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
Anything where money was involved, Dee Coleman was there | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
involved with it. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
Aged just 21, in 2007 Coleman was jailed for extorting money | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
on behalf of the UDA. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:53 | |
In recent years, he has been fined for possession of an imitation | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
weapon and drugs offences. | 0:15:56 | 0:16:01 | |
And, finally, this is Denis Cunningham. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:03 | |
Spotlight has met him before. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:07 | |
You may not recognise him with his mask off. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:09 | |
Because this is Cunningham filmed in 2002, reading a UDA statement. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:16 | |
The Ulster freedom fighters wish to make clear that they don't | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
use any other name as a flag of convenience. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
Cunningham was later jailed for fronting this | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
paramilitary press conference. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:28 | |
Our sources say he is the overall commander of C Company. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:32 | |
But he doesn't get his hands dirty by being involved in the drug | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
dealing and criminal activity. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
He hasn't got a reputation. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
It's just the men he knows, that he's been round. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
He can speak words, he's an educated person. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:45 | |
So therefore he knows what to say. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:47 | |
And how to say it. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
These are the paramilitary godfathers who control | 0:16:51 | 0:16:52 | |
the Lower Shankill. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:58 | |
On a day-to-day basis senior members of the UDA are often based | 0:16:58 | 0:17:03 | |
in the Lower Shankill Community Association, here | 0:17:03 | 0:17:05 | |
on the Shankill Road. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
There are volunteers and staff here not involved in the UDA. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
It runs education, training and youth outreach programmes | 0:17:13 | 0:17:15 | |
and works with the Housing Executive and police on issue | 0:17:15 | 0:17:21 | |
of community concern. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:24 | |
But while it is engaged in this work, locals we have talked to view | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
this building in another way. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
The Lower Shankill Community Association - do you know | 0:17:31 | 0:17:33 | |
what they are used for? | 0:17:33 | 0:17:35 | |
UDA headquarters. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
C Company headquarters. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:38 | |
That's where it all happens from. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:40 | |
And why do you say that? | 0:17:40 | 0:17:42 | |
You've a problem with the UDA, you go to the offices. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:44 | |
You speak to Denis Cunningham. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:45 | |
Or Dee Coleman. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
After her cousin Neil died of a drugs overdose, | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
Tracey Coulter came here to raise her concerns | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
about his death. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
She says she arranged to meet this man at the office. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
He's Matt Kincaid. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
Matt Kincaid's a brigadier of west Belfast. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
So, I went round to speak to him, to, um, let him know | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
just how badly overrun that the lower Shankill had got, | 0:18:23 | 0:18:28 | |
because of all the drug dealing in it. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
I just want to be clear on one point. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:33 | |
You'd arranged to meet Matt Kincaid, the west Belfast | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
brigadier of the UDA. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
Why? | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
And why at the Lower Shankill Community Association offices? | 0:18:42 | 0:18:44 | |
Because that's where the UDA run, that's basically | 0:18:44 | 0:18:46 | |
like the UDA headquarters, the Lower Shankill | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
Community Association. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
That's where you go to talk to the brigadier. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
When she arrived for the meeting there was no sign of Kincaid. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
But there were other people in the office. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:03 | |
Whenever I got there... | 0:19:03 | 0:19:05 | |
Um, and the minute I walked in, Dee Coleman was there | 0:19:05 | 0:19:08 | |
and Mo Courtney was there, and Denis Cunningham was there. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
Obviously there was going to be some kind of confrontation because this | 0:19:12 | 0:19:14 | |
had all been brewing. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
A heated argument broke out between her and Coleman and then | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
Mo Courtney got involved. | 0:19:20 | 0:19:24 | |
He jumped up and says, "Get out to lock." | 0:19:24 | 0:19:30 | |
and I told him to go and lock himself and mind his own business. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:34 | |
And then he jumped off the chair and head butted me, and grabbed me | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
by the throat and then assaulted me. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:44 | |
Tracey called the police to the offices and made | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
a complaint against Courtney. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:50 | |
She claims that in the four months between the assault and the case | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
coming to court, she then suffered a UDA campaign of intimidation. | 0:19:54 | 0:20:00 | |
And from the July, and the court case wasn't till the December, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
from then till the December, my name was spread | 0:20:07 | 0:20:11 | |
all round the walls, Tracey Coulter, PSNI informer. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:16 | |
Um... | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
They would gather all round my house, walking past it. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:24 | |
And I lived with CCTV, etc., so the police | 0:20:24 | 0:20:26 | |
were being called constantly. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:27 | |
Um... | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
They threw paint round my windows, with my kids present. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:32 | |
Um, they threw paint in the streets, when I was walking down | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
with another girl. | 0:20:35 | 0:20:37 | |
It just never stopped. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
Despite this, Tracey gave evidence against Courtney, | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
and he was convicted of assault. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
The case was not treated as paramilitary related. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:52 | |
But Tracey says that in court she made clear her belief that | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
Courtney is a UDA member. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
She also says Courtney's solicitor described his client | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
was a community worker. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
We wanted to know more about the Association | 0:21:08 | 0:21:09 | |
and what it does. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
Its mission statement says it: "plays a pivotal role | 0:21:12 | 0:21:16 | |
"in the physical, social and economic regeneration | 0:21:16 | 0:21:18 | |
"of the Shankill area". | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
In particular, it has had a lot of publicity, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
and a lot of money for replacing some of the UDA murals in the area | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
with new community friendly art. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:33 | |
But as we have seen, many UDA murals remain | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
to advertise the UDA's control. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:42 | |
Despite the community group's links to the UDA, | 0:21:42 | 0:21:48 | |
we've discovered public funding of the organisation has been | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
significantly increasing. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:54 | |
To date, the group has not published its accounts. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
But through Freedom of Information requests we have calculated that it | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
has been granted around ?650,000 of government money, | 0:22:00 | 0:22:10 | |
over the last five years. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:11 | |
Some of the funding is used to employ several staff, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
including the area UDA commander Denis Cunningham | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
as a community worker. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:21 | |
And this man, Ian McLaughlin, the Association's project manager | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
and a member of the local Ulster Political Research Group | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
the political advisors to the UDA. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:33 | |
We asked Lower Shankill Community Association, Mo Courtney, | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
Dee Coleman, Denis Cunningham, Matt Kincaid and Ian McLaughlin | 0:22:36 | 0:22:41 | |
if they wished to respond to the points in this programme. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:46 | |
None of them replied to our letters. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
Tracey Coulter and her children were eventually forced | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
to leave the Shankill. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
Their home was set on fire in December 2013, within 72 hours | 0:22:55 | 0:23:00 | |
of the court verdict against Mo Courtney. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
The DUP and police quickly condemned the attack. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
But Tracey says the police wouldn't name the UDA as responsible, | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
because they said they didn't have the evidence to do so. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:17 | |
And she also says political support for her quickly disappeared. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:21 | |
Days after the fire at her home, she met then DUP Social Development | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
Minister Nelson McCausland. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:31 | |
Basically what I wanted from Nelson McCausland | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
was I wanted to ask, I wanted his word, were, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
were they, um, involved in funding the Lower Shankill | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
Community Association. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:42 | |
And basically sharing with him, that I don't think that | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
offices should be funded. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:51 | |
Tracey was effectively asking the Minister for Transparency | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
about how public money was being spent on the Association. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:59 | |
She says she asked Mr McCausland about the funding of the Association | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
and he said he would investigate and get back to her. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
Three years later she's still waiting. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
Mr McCausland is familiar with the community association. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:15 | |
Here he is on a visit to the Shankill in 2011, | 0:24:15 | 0:24:19 | |
pictured with Denis Cunningham, who was there in his role | 0:24:19 | 0:24:23 | |
as a community rep, as opposed to his role as a UDA commander. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:28 | |
On that occasion Mr McCausland was getting the Association's | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
input into future housing plans for the area. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:36 | |
In a statement, Mr McCausland said that during his meeting | 0:24:36 | 0:24:40 | |
with Tracey Coulter he advised he could not name the UDA | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
as responsible for the attack on her home until he got a PSNI | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
assessment that this was the case. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
He added, Tracey had then told a newspaper the meeting with him | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
was "a waste of time". | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
And he decided any future meeting with her would be unwise, | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
as it "might well be misrepresented." | 0:25:00 | 0:25:05 | |
When he met Tracey Coulter, Mr McCausland's Department | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
of Social Development was funding the Association. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:12 | |
In fact, according to figures we requested under Freedom | 0:25:12 | 0:25:17 | |
of Information, the Department was paying the rent for the building | 0:25:17 | 0:25:20 | |
and all major staff costs. | 0:25:20 | 0:25:23 | |
We asked the Department, given Tracey's concerns | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
about the association's links to the UDA, if an investigation | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
into its funding has taken place. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:35 | |
It said. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:37 | |
It is aware of allegations of both criminal and paramilitary activity | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
taking place at Lower Shankill Community Association | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
and of PSNI investigations. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:47 | |
But it added it was satisfied that the specific allegations | 0:25:47 | 0:25:50 | |
were not connected with the community activity | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
supported by its funding. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
The Department said it is not aware of anything that would put at risk | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
public funds being made available to the organisation. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:04 | |
It seems, as long as there is no misuse of public funds, | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
the department is happy to continue paying rent for offices which it | 0:26:07 | 0:26:10 | |
knows are allegedly linked to criminal and paramilitary activity. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:15 | |
While accepting that the police have investigated an assault | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
at the offices, the department doesn't say it has made its own | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
inquiries into that matter. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
And it continues to fund the group. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:30 | |
Tracey Coulter's experience sounds very familiar and I think it's | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
really an indictment of the whole system. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
I don't think, erm, public bodies and, erm, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:38 | |
politicians are frightened that the paramilitaries | 0:26:38 | 0:26:40 | |
are going to do something to them. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:42 | |
They don't do anything because they don't want to rock | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
the peace process boat and they want to continue | 0:26:45 | 0:26:47 | |
with the cosy relationship, erm, with these guys that | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
makes their life easy, that's what's at the bottom of it. | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
The recent independent investigation into disbanding paramilitary groups | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
recognised this situation. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
But how did it suggest we change it? | 0:27:02 | 0:27:06 | |
The investigators said the door should remain open to those members | 0:27:06 | 0:27:09 | |
of the groups who truly want to move on and reintegrate into society. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:15 | |
They have called for barriers to ex-paramilitaries | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
and their families, in terms job opportunities, insurance | 0:27:18 | 0:27:21 | |
and travel to be removed. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
They have also argued funding of community groups linked | 0:27:24 | 0:27:27 | |
to paramilitaries is a risk still worth taking, but it has to be | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
more strictly monitored. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:36 | |
You need good accountability and transparency and legitimacy. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
Don't give it to people who are known to be | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
gangsters and doing this for the wrong reasons. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:46 | |
But, in return for support, the disbandment panel wants groups | 0:27:46 | 0:27:48 | |
like the UDA to now move towards leaving the stage for good. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:53 | |
Critics say we have tried all this before and it hasn't worked. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:59 | |
Well, I thought the panel report was a load of old guff. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:02 | |
I mean we have been throwing money at this problem endlessly | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
for the past two decades. | 0:28:05 | 0:28:06 | |
What I think we need is for the police and | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
the state to get serious and to just do their job. | 0:28:09 | 0:28:13 | |
The politicians have to let the police follow the evidence no | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
matter where that leads. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
And certainly depressed areas of Northern Ireland do need funding, | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
they do need cash injections but they don't need that money | 0:28:23 | 0:28:25 | |
going through the prism of paramilitary hands. | 0:28:25 | 0:28:30 | |
But the independent investigators say they've a new get-tough policy | 0:28:30 | 0:28:34 | |
for those paramilitaries who do not take advantage of this moment | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
to end their activity. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
Everyone is now beginning to realise that, er, paramilitary organisations | 0:28:42 | 0:28:46 | |
are not simply going to wither away. | 0:28:46 | 0:28:52 | |
And they're going to have to be tackled, and those who are moving | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
to a different place need to move, and move quickly. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
And those who aren't need to be dealt with. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
There needs to be a zero tolerance, and there needs to be whatever | 0:28:59 | 0:29:03 | |
legislation or regulatory powers, that need to come into place. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:05 | |
To move forward, er, aggressively, towards the dismantling, | 0:29:05 | 0:29:10 | |
frustrating and disrupting of these organised crime groups. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:16 | |
Around ?25 million will be available to law enforcement agencies, | 0:29:16 | 0:29:20 | |
to try to achieve this dismantling of the groups | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
and their organised criminality. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:27 | |
But will police and politicians see this task through? | 0:29:27 | 0:29:33 | |
The disbandment panel report warns that politicians, the PSNI | 0:29:33 | 0:29:38 | |
and public bodies often work too closely with the paramilitaries | 0:29:38 | 0:29:45 | |
or their community representatives and this is a major problem. | 0:29:45 | 0:29:47 | |
During our investigation into the Lower Shankill Community | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
Association we were told that police attend monthly meetings | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
in the offices, along with other public agencies and politicians, | 0:29:53 | 0:29:55 | |
to discuss local issues. | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
And some local people have told us their perception is that the UDA | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
and PSNI police the area jointly. | 0:30:01 | 0:30:11 | |
The panel says that this situation "cannot become a permanent norm", | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
as it is damaging public confidence in the policing and justice system. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:25 | |
It has become almost an expedience, to deal with some of these senior | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
figures, to try to quell problems that have arisen. | 0:30:28 | 0:30:34 | |
That creates a situation within the communities, where | 0:30:34 | 0:30:39 | |
they seem to be the go to people. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
And that has an effect on the notion of normal law and order, | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
within the communities. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:46 | |
When police officers are seen to be engaging with people | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
who are known in the communities, to be senior paramilitary figures. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
Would it concern you? | 0:30:53 | 0:30:57 | |
Your community officers would be in the Lower Shankill Community | 0:30:57 | 0:30:59 | |
Association officers on a regular basis, | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
those officers are also, erm, frequented by UDA members, | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
and members of the public in lower Shankill are saying to us I'm not | 0:31:05 | 0:31:09 | |
going to go and speak to the police, the police | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
are in cahoots with the UDA. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
Well we're not in cahoots with anyone, we will engage | 0:31:14 | 0:31:16 | |
with community groups, we do that right across | 0:31:16 | 0:31:18 | |
Northern Ireland. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:26 | |
The Lower Shankill Community Association is with the police, | 0:31:26 | 0:31:32 | |
with the housing executive, with other government | 0:31:32 | 0:31:34 | |
organisations.... | 0:31:34 | 0:31:35 | |
To make communities safer and better. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:36 | |
None of that is acquiescing to the UDA, none of that is | 0:31:36 | 0:31:39 | |
legitimising the UDA. | 0:31:39 | 0:31:40 | |
What we're doing is trying to do what we call policing | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
with the community. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:44 | |
Do you accept that's undermining public confidence | 0:31:44 | 0:31:46 | |
in your force when... | 0:31:46 | 0:31:47 | |
When the public sees those relationships? | 0:31:47 | 0:31:56 | |
Well, I'm not sure that it is because first of all, we'll only | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
engage with people er who alleged to have these paramilitary | 0:31:59 | 0:32:01 | |
connections for a policing purpose. | 0:32:01 | 0:32:02 | |
So, whatever the engagement is in practical policing | 0:32:02 | 0:32:04 | |
terms to assist. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:05 | |
With parades and protest activity there will always be a healthy | 0:32:05 | 0:32:08 | |
distance between us and people like that so that we can do our duty | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
as police officers. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:12 | |
But the independent panel does not agree. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
It has warned that the PSNI needs to distance itself | 0:32:15 | 0:32:17 | |
from paramilitaries in communities like the Shankill because | 0:32:17 | 0:32:23 | |
it does potentially compromise the rule of law. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
The police may have their own reasons for doing that, | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
but as we say in the report, there comes a time when that | 0:32:30 | 0:32:34 | |
umbilical cord that was once needed, perhaps for them to get intelligence | 0:32:34 | 0:32:38 | |
or to have some kind of control over what is going to happen next week, | 0:32:38 | 0:32:42 | |
it keeps everything peaceful, it needs to be broken. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:45 | |
Others believe police are taking the flak for the situation | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
on the ground and it is a lack of political leadership at Stormont | 0:32:48 | 0:32:51 | |
to take on the paramilitaries that is the real problem. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:57 | |
I think it's a fair assessment to say that some people | 0:32:57 | 0:33:03 | |
in paramilitary groups have direct links to some people associated | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
with the two parties of government, and that is clearly a major issue. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
David Ford says while the Fresh Start Agreement said it will tackle | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
paramilitarism, nothing concrete has yet happened. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
I would like to see a real, genuine action plan, | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
investments and timescales, so we know that the culture | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
is changing, and that those who are standing up for lawful | 0:33:23 | 0:33:30 | |
activity are being supported, and that requires | 0:33:30 | 0:33:31 | |
leadership from the top. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:36 | |
Based on what I've seen so far, I find it difficult to see | 0:33:36 | 0:33:40 | |
that the Executive is actually going to live up to the responsibilities | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
accepted a year ago. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
I don't want anyone under any illusion as to what my determination | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
is to deal with these. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:48 | |
There is a fork in the road coming. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
It is coming up very soon, I want to see the police | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
moving in and taking these people out of society. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:55 | |
But if there are those who are deciding that they want | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
to move away from violence and intimidation and paramilitarism, | 0:33:58 | 0:34:00 | |
then we will work with them. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:01 | |
One week after the Fresh Start Agreement was signed, | 0:34:01 | 0:34:05 | |
last year, Aaron McMahon, whom we reported on earlier this | 0:34:05 | 0:34:08 | |
year, was in his workshop, beneath the family home | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
in the Clandeboye area of Bangor when two masked men burst | 0:34:12 | 0:34:15 | |
in and attacked him with a hammer. | 0:34:15 | 0:34:18 | |
I just turned round at the last minute and both guys were sort | 0:34:18 | 0:34:21 | |
of on top of me then. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
It's really just a case of trying to protect yourself as best you can. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:26 | |
The wife was screaming, the kids were squealing, | 0:34:26 | 0:34:28 | |
crying, it was a complete mess, you know. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
Aaron fought off the attackers and suffered minor head injuries. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:36 | |
The attack came after Clandeboye Village Community Association, | 0:34:36 | 0:34:39 | |
of which he is chairman, had opposed North Down UDA erecting | 0:34:39 | 0:34:46 | |
paramilitary flags in the area and taking over their 11th | 0:34:46 | 0:34:48 | |
night community bonfire. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:52 | |
The leader of this paramilitary faction took great offence | 0:34:52 | 0:34:54 | |
at the stand I was forced to take through lack of leadership | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
from the politicians and the police. | 0:34:57 | 0:34:59 | |
That paramilitary leader is this man, the Commander of North Down | 0:34:59 | 0:35:01 | |
UDA, David Stitt. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:09 | |
Stitt is also the Chief Executive of leading community organisation | 0:35:09 | 0:35:11 | |
Charter NI. | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
A position which comes with a public salary. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
The Board of Charter NI has said it has full confidence in all staff | 0:35:15 | 0:35:19 | |
within the organisation and does not condone any illegal activity. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:25 | |
David Stitt has told Spotlight he rejects the allegations | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
against him and says his work for Charter NI is positively | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
influencing people away from involvement | 0:35:32 | 0:35:33 | |
in paramilitary life. | 0:35:33 | 0:35:37 | |
Two men were charged with assault on Aaron. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:41 | |
But, like Tracey Coulter before him, he is furious that the PSNI refused | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
to treat the case as paramilitary linked. | 0:35:44 | 0:35:48 | |
He believes that to have done so would have upset the relationship | 0:35:48 | 0:35:51 | |
the PSNI has with North Down UDA. | 0:35:51 | 0:35:56 | |
Too sensitive. | 0:35:56 | 0:35:59 | |
It would upset this sort of paid for pretend peace that everyone has | 0:35:59 | 0:36:02 | |
sort of bought into has been sold. | 0:36:02 | 0:36:04 | |
They don't want to jeopardise that. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:10 | |
Give us a hand with this table, love. | 0:36:10 | 0:36:12 | |
In June this year charges in the case were dropped due | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
to insufficient evidence. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:16 | |
Meanwhile, intimidation of Aaron's family by some local UDA members has | 0:36:16 | 0:36:19 | |
continued this summer. | 0:36:19 | 0:36:24 | |
Aaron's daughter Gaynor recently called the PSNI after being followed | 0:36:24 | 0:36:27 | |
in a car by a known UDA man. | 0:36:27 | 0:36:32 | |
He says police gave her several options for what they could do, | 0:36:32 | 0:36:35 | |
and one was that an officer could speak to the man's UDA boss | 0:36:35 | 0:36:38 | |
to get it to stop. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
The PSNI have told Spotlight no such offer was made. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:49 | |
But Aaron and his family are adamant it was and angry about this denial. | 0:36:49 | 0:36:55 | |
Tracey Coulter and Aaron McMahon have said to us that | 0:36:55 | 0:37:00 | |
when they were attacked by the UDA your force | 0:37:00 | 0:37:02 | |
refused to name the UDA as being responsible. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
Why is that? | 0:37:04 | 0:37:06 | |
They feel totally let down by your police force. | 0:37:06 | 0:37:09 | |
Well, erm, it's always difficult whenever you get into talking | 0:37:09 | 0:37:11 | |
about specific cases, erm, but er we will name | 0:37:11 | 0:37:13 | |
organisations when there is an investigational | 0:37:13 | 0:37:14 | |
or an operational reason to do so. | 0:37:14 | 0:37:24 | |
Is it not a societal reason to do so? | 0:37:25 | 0:37:35 | |
Well, if there is, that's one for the politicians | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
because our job is to, er, secure evidence and bring | 0:37:39 | 0:37:41 | |
people before the courts. | 0:37:41 | 0:37:45 | |
I feel very much like a sitting duck Stephen and have done | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
for a while now. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
The police, in my opinion have become so weak in this and issues | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
like this and these groups have become so strong | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
that they are almost untouchable. | 0:37:57 | 0:37:58 | |
When Spotlight reported on Aaron McMahon earlier this year, | 0:37:58 | 0:38:01 | |
for legal reasons we did not mention the hammer attack. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:05 | |
But we did name David Stitt as the commander of the UDA faction | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
who had been intimidating people in Clandeboye. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:12 | |
And we also told the dup Aaron felt it had abandoned his community | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
in the face of this intimidation because the party didn't | 0:38:15 | 0:38:17 | |
want to upset ties they have with elements of the UDA. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:24 | |
The DUP denied this was the case. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
But last week, this was First Minister Arlene Foster. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:33 | |
Standing on her right is UDA commander, David Stitt at a Charter | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
NI event in East Belfast. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:41 | |
She was approving the award of a ?1.7 million government | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
contract to the community group. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:49 | |
You're pictured last week with UDA commander David Stitt, | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
he is in charge of faction in North Down that's been | 0:38:52 | 0:38:59 | |
intimidating members of the local community and you're | 0:38:59 | 0:39:00 | |
the First Minister of this country and your pictured with him, | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
surely you're turning a blind eye. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
No. | 0:39:05 | 0:39:06 | |
If you're being pictured with that man? | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
I'm not turning a blind eye. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:10 | |
What I'm doing is I'm trying to encourage people to move away | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
from their past. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:14 | |
I mean, for goodness sake, we're in a mandatory coalition | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
with Sinn Fein who are part of the republican movement | 0:39:17 | 0:39:19 | |
who were killing people, killing people of my | 0:39:19 | 0:39:24 | |
community, for many years. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:27 | |
Are you seriously suggesting that I walk away from the loyalist | 0:39:27 | 0:39:30 | |
community and not try to bring them along and try to get them away | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
from whatever past they've been involved in? | 0:39:33 | 0:39:43 | |
But it is in the present that Aaron feels Fresh Start is "empty words." | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
He and his community association were prepared to take a stand | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
against UDA intimidation in their area. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:50 | |
But he says politicians and police have undermined his | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
faith in law and order. | 0:39:53 | 0:39:59 | |
Would you do it all again, Aaron? | 0:39:59 | 0:40:03 | |
I don't think so, Stephen. | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
I think too high a price has been paid. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:07 | |
Especially for my family, in order for us to keep up | 0:40:07 | 0:40:11 | |
this facade of peace, I think we are sort of seen | 0:40:11 | 0:40:14 | |
as collateral damage in many respects and that's a sad indictment | 0:40:14 | 0:40:18 | |
of where we are in 2016. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:22 | |
Once more, Stormont is planning to pay paramilitaries to go away. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
There's no doubt previous efforts have strengthened the peace process | 0:40:25 | 0:40:29 | |
but there are those who argue they've effectively legitimised | 0:40:29 | 0:40:34 | |
these groups, giving them a new kind of community control. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
So, is this really a new dawn, or simply history repeating itself? | 0:40:36 | 0:40:43 |