04/07/2013 The View


04/07/2013

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On The View tonight: Allegations of political interference and

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misleading MLAs. As the fall-out continues over the BBC Spotlight

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investigation into Red Sky and the Housing Executive - is there a case

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to answer? Not according to the Social Development Minister, who's

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with me in the studio. We'll also hear from members of the committee

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which is to launch an inquiry into the allegations.

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Also on the programme tonight: As the political year draws to a close,

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we honour the cream of our political class with The View's

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inaugural awards. And you can, of course, give us

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your thoughts and follow the A huge fishing expedition with not

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much of a catch at the end of it - or potentially the most serious

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political scandal since the Assembly came into operation in

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1998. Contrasting views from two MLAs. The first from the Social

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Development Minister, Nelson McCausland. The second from the

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Chair of his departmental committee, Alex Maskey. Both were prompted by

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last night's BBC Northern Ireland's Spotlight investigation which

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alleged political interference in the running of the Housing

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Executive. Those claims have been strongly denied by Mr McCausland,

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who joins me tonight. Woken to the programme. Good evening.

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Let's deal first with the phone call Jenny Palmer received from

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your special adviser, Stephen Brimstone. She says she was told by

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Mr Brimstone to vote against the Board's position on terminating the

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Red Sky contract for the good of the party. How do you respond to

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that allegation? The programme last night presented the conversation

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between my special adviser and the councillor, in a particular way. I

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want to be clear it was a single telephone conversation and it was

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the short telephone conversation that lasted a matter of minutes.

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The position as I understand it was, the telephone call was to explain

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to Councillor Palmer, there was a wider context in terms of different

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contractors. I would like to explain that. The focus was

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entirely on one company. What I was clear about, and I have since been

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vindicated on this by independent consultancy report, is it was not

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restricted to one company. When you look at all of the contract as we

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investigated, it became clear it was a more widespread problem. He

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was conveying that information to Mrs Palmer. We will go on to talk

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about that company and other companies in the moment.

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She says Mr Brimstone clearly attempted to bring political

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influence to bear on her. Do you accept she was put under pressure

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by Mr Brimstone? His account of the conversation is

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very different from her recollection. Two people who have a

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conversation and have different recollections. Did you ask Mr

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Brimstone to make that call to Jenny Palmer? Know.

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Did he make the call with or without your knowledge?

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Did you know he was going to make the call? That is a bizarre and

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ludicrous question. Am I supposed to check every single phone call my

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staff make? He is your special adviser. Let me finish. There are

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 130 seconds

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two different stories about the making an allegation and she is the

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yearly clearly upset about it. It is part of a major issue now

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politically in Northern Ireland. are dealing with the Housing

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executive and the chairman has reported overpayments of �18

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million. We are dealing with scandals relating to response

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maintenance contracts and there seems to be a fixation... It is

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important that we settle on the context in the context that is why

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there is -- why is the adverse fixation? We are dealing with tens

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of millions of pounds. Why do you think Jenny Palmer would not report

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the conversation with the special adviser of the DUP menace that

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accurately? -- minister. I can't be held accountable for what she says.

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It seems to me there is a very partial approach to all these issues

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within the BBC. Here there is a major rescue of public concern in

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the fixation of the BBC, and I listened to the interview earlier

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on, where he was quite frankly rude and overbearing. It is not really a

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to this discussion. I think it has because it sets up the BBC as

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defending the indefensible. allegation was made by a DUP

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councillor, a member of your party. It is about the scale I am dealing

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with. We have a stock of 90,000 homes... So she does not matter? Let

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me finish and speak without interrupting. They are 90,000

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properties owned by the Housing executive. The standard of service

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being delivered to many of those tenants has not been good enough.

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The value for money that should be the hallmark of a public body has

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not been reached and when I am dealing with those issues I will not

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be sidetracked by what somebody has said... So we should not be talking

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about it at all? In the scheme of things, it shows the lack of

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perspective in the BBC. Is your party going to take any action

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against her for the allegations she has made? You have this fixation and

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we will get to the end of the 15 minutes without reaching the core of

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the matter. Let's move on to Red Sky. You said you always acted with

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the highest level of integrity. Why did you attend the meeting in June

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2011 when the representatives of either the administrators or the

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Housing executive were present? of the things I said at the

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beginning was that I had the priorities. One was to ensure value

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for money, secondly to ensure the good quality service, and Dublin

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that in everything I do, I will do it with integrity and I have sought

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at all times to do that. -- thirdly that in everything I do. Give me a

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chance to explain without interrupting. The meeting with the

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people from Red Sky took place two years ago on the 27th of June, 2011.

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That is correct. That particular meeting, I was approached by a

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number of representatives from across East Belfast and from

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different parties with regards to Red Sky. I have representation from

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other parties and from the DUP... The only members there were

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political? Are they to be condemned for being particularly active.

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only politicians present were members of the DUP. Your... If I am

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asked to have a meeting with elected representatives, they bring people

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with them and I will hold the meeting. Even if it was a breach of

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the ministerial code? The legal advice I have received is nothing

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improper happened at all. Did you take that advice before the meeting

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or after the meeting? understanding is that the advice was

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taken, and my recollection is, bearing in mind that this was two

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years ago, we had advice beforehand that was checked out after. You must

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have asked for advice because you might have been concerned you were

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in breach? You are expecting I would take advice and then when I do that

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as a problem! I was very clear on this. I wanted to make sure that in

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addressing the issues, and I have acknowledged clearly there were

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issues about Red Sky, but I also acknowledged and was subsequently

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vindicated that when you look at all the other contactors at the same

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time and we examined six other contactors... But the clear evidence

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from the independent forensic audit that was done indicated that there

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may have been problems with other companies... You are totally wrong

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on that! There was clear evidence that Red Sky had been acting

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inappropriately. These factors, the report that was commissioned did not

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consider any of the others. It did not see they were clean or at

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fault... I must correct you there. The initial report identified issues

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with Red Sky. My question at that point was to the chairman of the

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Housing executive, have you looked at the other housing companies? The

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answer was that they had in place... Without interrupting. It is

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quite clear that he said they are robust systems in place. The probe

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was that that was not true. It may or may not be the case... FB report

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was very clear there was wrongdoing, why did you not do something about

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that? Why did you to defend contracts being given? Is that not

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the point? If you would only listen to what I said. I said very clearly

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I am not in the business of defending. I am not defending anyone

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and that beer is wrongdoing I will deal with that. The point I am

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making clearly is that the report was commissioned by the Housing

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executive and they picked out one company and do not deal with the

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others. Sorry, I will take the opportunity, please. Give me the

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opportunity to respond. I am giving you the opportunity but I have a lot

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of questions and you are repeating yourself. The point is we were in

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the process potentially taking a contract away from a company where

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there clearly something wrong to give it to another company where

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there was potentially something wrong because it was already clear

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that point... You do not know that at that time. On the 27th of June

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you asked for the contract to be extended. You said you were not

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defending them but you asked for the contract to continue with them for

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it for the period of time. I have the minutes in front of me. That is

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totally wrong and I hope you retract it. There was a second company which

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had emerged. Do you mind if we talk about Red Sky? The menace than

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advised he would like to have the administrators in place. --

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minister. You then said during this time the proposed new company might

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have been able to assess its own matters and he'll is why I am

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asking. Red Sky representatives were talking about acquiring the

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company's contracts for a new company. That according to the QC

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who was consulted is in breach of the ministerial code. When we were

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dealing with Red Sky, I was already in possession of evidence that

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another of the companies was a company where they were similar

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difficulties. I was suspicious because it was clear to me that if

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you look across the whole realm of contracts, you have more than one

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company where there were irregularities. They were covering

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in more than one district, and beer you come to the conclusion, how

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widespread is this? -- therefore. That report which you are obviously

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not particularly interested in, clearly indicated that when you

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looked at the six companies, similar issues record. Why were you at that

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meeting and why were not representatives of the

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administrators they not representatives of the

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administrators there? You could not with any authority talk to

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employees? They were not. Why were you taking part in that meeting?

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than you are. You can either ask questions or you can try that

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bullying approach. I will answer questions when I get a chance

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without being rudely interrupted. I am trying to connect a point. I

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think our viewers would like to know. I should have an opportunity

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to connect all the errors you are introducing. You made a statement a

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moment ago and if you would actually listen instead of grimacing, you

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might have a sense of what is going on. You keep talking about other

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issues? I will deal with the issue quite simply. The report

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investigated six different companies and it was clear that someone issues

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record. You said you know all about that. What I am going to ask you

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finally... I will come back to Red Sky. In all my correspondence, what

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I was keen to secure was that we keep the administrator were in place

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until we get to a point where there could be an open situation where

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they could keep the contract going. They were sitting in a meeting with

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ministers and others, getting an unfair... That is not true.We have

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run out of time, but this is an issue that was raised to date. It

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is simple, would it not be wise for you to stand aside as social

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development minister while the Assembly discusses the issue on

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Monday and while this statutory inquiry investigates the issue?

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have not had that suggestion put to me by anybody. I spent over two

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hours with the committee this morning and they did not suggest

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that. It would be ludicrous anyway. Other politicians have been on the

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airwaves suggesting it. No the D has put it to me. Would it not make

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sense for you to step aside and allow the inquiry to happen without

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you being in post as minister? is a bizarre suggestion. That is

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what the First Minister did while the investigation was going on,

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then he resumed his post. I have no intention of stepping aside and

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doing the job and I am doing. The Gazette -- Executive has condemned

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people, 10,000 tenants living in awful conditions. I have been

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vindicated time and time again. The report you skimmed over so likely

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vindicated the stand I have taken. A time after time, reports have

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shown I have been right and the Housing Executive got it wrong.

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When the Deputy First Minister so today, this potentially is

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damaging... The minister appeared before the Social Development

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Committee this morning following the spotlight programme and two

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members of the committee are with me now. Thanks to you both for

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joining us on the programme. Alex, you heard a very robust defence

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from the minister regarding the allegations of political

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interference made last night. Do you accept his defence of his

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actions? My job, as chair of the committee is to oversee an inquiry

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which the committee agreed to establish this morning. It will be

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the most thorough investigation around these allegations. What we

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have heard so far has been uncomfortable viewing and listening.

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I think the public confidence is continuing to be dented over the

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Government's in the Assembly. I do believe this is potentially the

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biggest political scandal to hit the Assembly since 1988. As I had

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just said, the allegations of the potential to undermine public

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confidence in public institutions. The minister's response to that is,

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he has no case to answer. minister is prepared to make that

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point. But the inquiry will have the power and this will be a

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statutory inquiry, and the committee will have the power to

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all of the evidence, the IMO and -- e-mails, telephone records, and all

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the individuals are relevant to this inquiry, including the

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minister, the Housing Executive and others. This will be a robust and

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thorough investigation. This will be thorough and there will be no

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hiding place, if there is any wrong doing. We have had allegations

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which have been tabled, which talks about political interference. It is

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from bullying to bribery, which is from political interference to

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illegal activity. I am concerned. In respect of the point you're

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dealing with the minister on earlier, I spoke to the minister at

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the head of that, and I said I thought he was on very thin ice by

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attending that meeting as a minister, with people who had been

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deemed to be guilty of fraudulent activity, the management of Red Sky.

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The minister did involve himself in that and it was very difficult.

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do not think he should have been at the meeting? You have concerns the

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Red Sky people were at that meeting and there were not representatives

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of the administrators or the housing Executive? I use the term,

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I thought he was on thin ice. you share those concerns? Totally.

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I did ask this morning the nature of the representation if they were

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still employed by the administrators at Red Sky where

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private individuals had been previously at Red Sky. It was a

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position the minister would have been badly advised to get himself

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into. Do you think it was a breach of the Ministerial Code? You have

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an opinion which we might defer to mind. I actually said to the

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minister at the meeting, and his staff in the room and his adviser,

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I thought he was on Derry, very thin ice. He was meeting people who

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were trying to get business, people who were deemed to be responsible

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for fraud. At the same time they were trying to get more contracts

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and have their contracts extended. You gave your reaction to the

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pressure about Jenny Palmer, about the pressure she was put under. The

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minister says there are two differing events of that

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conversation. What is your reaction to what the minister had to say

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about that? It displayed a lack of understanding and compassion. If

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one of my colleagues had received a telephone call like that, I would

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have been trying to clarify the actuality of what was said. I want

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to unreason the call was made. minister said it was to explain the

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wider context of the situation? Palmer was occupying a political

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position on the board. They documented the position they were

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going to take was correct. I presume, had she been reinforced by

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her presence, that finding, it might have made the actions

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slightly more questionable. It is a matter for interpretation. What

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about the allegations of sectarian influence? Particularly comments

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that West Belfast elected representatives were out to get at

:27:48.:27:54.

Red Sky, that is what Peter Robinson are said in April 2011?

:27:54.:27:59.

cannot speak for Peter Robinson, and why he made that the surgeon.

:27:59.:28:09.
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What he's -- was he right? Certainly not. I raised for the

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Housing Executive, complaints about Red Sky work and non-work carried

:28:15.:28:20.

out on houses. I raise those concerns on behalf of constituents.

:28:20.:28:26.

Therefore the representatives that my party made were solely about the

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bad workmanship that was being carried out by Red Sky. A question

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to both of you, should the minister stand aside while these inquiries

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continue? There is a precedent given, the actions of Ian Paisley

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Jnr, who is not a minister, but was elected on the First Minister. I

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think the minister should give serious consideration to that cause

:28:51.:28:56.

of action. I put to the minister directly at the meeting. How did he

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feel about carrying on his pivotal role particularly in relation to

:29:02.:29:06.

what mate -- might replace the Housing Executive and the current

:29:06.:29:11.

public mood and the issue in his confidence on the ability to do

:29:11.:29:17.

that. I put the question to him this morning, did he feel he was

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able to carry on that were given the community and political

:29:22.:29:26.

sensitivities around it. He chaired that meeting today and you heard

:29:26.:29:30.

what the minister had to say tonight, do you think he should

:29:30.:29:34.

stand aside? It would be wise for the minister to consider where he

:29:34.:29:44.
:29:44.:29:56.

sits at the moment. It is about of term, but with Stormont recalled

:29:56.:29:59.

for Monday to discuss the Spotlight allegations, some MLAs may have to

:29:59.:30:03.

delay their summer break. However, it is the final episode of The View

:30:03.:30:05.

until September, and to mark the occasion we asked our commentators

:30:05.:30:08.

to put their heads together to judge which politicians scored top marks.

:30:08.:30:11.

Our Political Correspondent, Martina Purdy, has the detail on their

:30:11.:30:21.
:30:21.:30:21.

deliberations. Tonight, we put the spotlight on

:30:21.:30:27.

Stormont's best performer is. need to wake up and smell the

:30:27.:30:37.
:30:37.:30:38.

coffee. A personal tribute to her that the law has now passed. Behind

:30:38.:30:43.

the scenes with our producers, the drama and comedy has been closely

:30:43.:30:53.
:30:53.:31:04.

conversation as we go. Let's make a start with top performing minister.

:31:04.:31:13.

The person I'm going to suggest as Martin McGuinness because a very big

:31:13.:31:23.
:31:23.:31:28.

duty falls upon him to be seen to work together. He met the Queen

:31:28.:31:36.

during the Diamond Jubilee visit and his ongoing commitment. That was her

:31:36.:31:41.

major crisis with the weather in March. I have a lot of time for

:31:41.:31:51.
:31:51.:31:52.

Arlene Foster who has been very competent and very well briefed. It

:31:52.:31:56.

is so good to see that she has now been talked about as Peter

:31:56.:32:05.

Robinson's chosen successor. Judges singled out Alex Attwood and Sammy

:32:05.:32:15.
:32:15.:32:16.

Wilson on finance. Arlene Foster makes the point difficult. He says

:32:16.:32:20.

if push came to shove, he would give the vote to Martin McGuinness.

:32:20.:32:29.

Tough category. Onto the choice for best speaker. One of the important

:32:29.:32:35.

speeches was by Stephen Agnew on gay marriage. He took on two ministers

:32:35.:32:40.

and I thought that was a standout for me.

:32:40.:32:45.

Another nominee John McAllister for his speech warning Mike Nesbitt into

:32:45.:32:54.

sleep walking into Unionist unity. Within days, he had been sacked as

:32:54.:33:01.

the party's deputy leader. By February of this year, he has left

:33:01.:33:11.
:33:11.:33:11.

the Ulster Unionist Party. Yet another new Unionist party.

:33:11.:33:16.

stuff on welfare reform and housing and social issues. For some time he

:33:16.:33:21.

was out of step with his own party and unionism in general. He saw

:33:21.:33:31.
:33:31.:33:38.

enormous courage. It has to be Jim Allister by a country mile.

:33:38.:33:40.

Has nomination goes to Jim Wells as a consistent performer. Next up,

:33:40.:33:50.
:33:50.:34:01.

best use of social media. My vote would go to Conall McDevitt.. He

:34:01.:34:09.

does not shy away from debate online and in social media. The break and

:34:09.:34:12.

direct are also voting for Conall McDevitt although they ugly mentions

:34:13.:34:22.
:34:23.:34:25.

Jim Allister. Much tougher is best MLA. Jim Allister and Stephen Agnew

:34:25.:34:29.

are singled out again. Sue Ramsey gets mentioned for holding the

:34:30.:34:38.

health minister to account and Simon Hamilton. He has developed from

:34:38.:34:43.

inarticulate to very sure of himself. Very good with his beliefs

:34:43.:34:48.

and much respected and liked as well. Judges are rather coy about

:34:48.:34:54.

their top choice. For me, it is a person who would dwindle popularity

:34:54.:35:04.
:35:04.:35:04.

contests. To me, this person wins this category. I think we probably

:35:04.:35:12.

agree. Who could that be? The final categorically as most entertaining.

:35:12.:35:22.
:35:22.:35:25.

They are are some characters. Kelly was carried off. It gave new

:35:25.:35:30.

meaning to the phrase Easter bonnets. Unintentionally funny but

:35:30.:35:39.

for me Sammy Wilson was the guy. When he is on form, he is funny and

:35:39.:35:44.

he can make the host laugh and it is a useful attribute because he

:35:44.:35:47.

sometimes comes up with that for excuses for not being able to do

:35:47.:35:51.

something. Well, you saw some of our esteemed panel of commentators in

:35:52.:35:55.

Martina's film. Two of them are here now to reveal who they chose as

:35:55.:35:59.

winners in each of the categories - and why. Paul McFadden and Alex

:35:59.:36:09.
:36:09.:36:12.

Kane. Welcome to the programme. Let's dive in, we have five

:36:12.:36:13.

categories in five minutes to do this.

:36:14.:36:23.
:36:24.:36:24.

Top Performing Minister: The winner is - Martin McGuinness.

:36:24.:36:34.

Why Martin McGuinness? He remains me almost of a boxer like sugar Ray

:36:34.:36:43.

Leonard. It is rare that anybody actually land a punch on him. He has

:36:43.:36:50.

been very statesmanlike and the a lot of people are looking to see the

:36:50.:36:54.

dynamic between the first Minister and Deputy first Minister. Who would

:36:54.:36:58.

think he would be the one with the steady hand and from that point of

:36:58.:37:04.

view he deserves it. Stiff competition but pretty much

:37:04.:37:10.

unanimity on Martin McGuinness? number of occasions when the

:37:10.:37:15.

assembly needed stability, he chose not to rock the boat. Let's move on.

:37:15.:37:24.

Best Speaker: We have joint winners - Stephen Agnew and Michael

:37:24.:37:34.
:37:34.:37:36.

Copeland. They are quite a few good speakers but a lot of them get up

:37:36.:37:45.

and you know what they will say. These two guys focus on issues and

:37:45.:37:54.

Stephen Agnew just makes a difference with his speech. Stephen

:37:54.:38:04.

Agnew for his passion, Michael Copeland spoke on the gay marriage

:38:04.:38:09.

debate and has Facebook page received 33,000 views. Medical

:38:09.:38:14.

Copeland does not know anything about this sort did not know until

:38:14.:38:17.

it was announced. Most effective use of social media by a politician: The

:38:17.:38:27.
:38:27.:38:29.

winner is - Conall McDevitt. There was not really much debate?

:38:29.:38:34.

surprise at all. He is prolific Twitter and has his own daily

:38:34.:38:41.

newspaper. He tweets in English and then Spanish and has a huge number

:38:41.:38:49.

of followers and as they deserve a of this category. Let's move on to

:38:49.:38:52.

our penultimate category. Most entertaining politician: The winner

:38:52.:39:01.

is - Sammy Wilson. There are lots who are funny for all

:39:01.:39:10.

the wrong reasons. Lots who think they are funny but have not. Sammy

:39:10.:39:15.

Wilson, when he is on form, can be absolutely brilliant. There have

:39:15.:39:22.

been many times where he gets it just right. The question is whether

:39:22.:39:29.

people are laughing with you are few. He can be both. He sometimes

:39:29.:39:32.

gets it wrong which is always a risk. And finally, Best MLA: The

:39:32.:39:42.
:39:42.:39:55.

winner is - Jim Allister. You actually said then that, you hinted,

:39:55.:39:59.

not necessarily everybody's most popular but there was considerable

:39:59.:40:09.
:40:09.:40:09.

unanimity. The vast majority of us believed that his success in getting

:40:09.:40:17.

the bill passed. He managed to drive a wedge between the SDLP and Sinn

:40:17.:40:27.
:40:27.:40:28.

Fein. It was a remarkable piece of politicking. A deserted winner?

:40:28.:40:36.

Anyone who is grumpier than I am who win something, I am delighted.

:40:36.:40:44.

was an interesting afternoon and there are some choices to be made.

:40:44.:40:48.

It was a bit of fun but I suppose it is quite serious. That's it from The

:40:48.:40:53.

View for this first year. We'll be back in September, but Sunday

:40:53.:40:56.

Politics continues for another two weeks - join me at 11.35 here on BBC

:40:56.:40:59.

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