19/09/2013 The View

Hello and welcome to a new season of The View.

On The View tonight - Washington's watching... We hear live from one of

the US's top political advisers on why Northern Ireland is still very

much on the White House agenda. We'll ask the DUP's Jonathan Bell

and Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly if Richard Haass can succeed where

others have failed? And after a difficult summer, are

attitudes hardening within republicanism, or do unionists need

to be a bit more understanding? The DUP is putting down its old

hardline, altering Unionist marker, and Sinn Fein feels obliged,

hardline, altering Unionist marker, naturally enough, to assert its

position. And back in Commentators' Corner,

we'll hear the views of Professor And back in Commentators' Corner,

Heenan and Professor Wilford. Plus we've added a new summer

signing to our team. Mark Carruthers on The View, he knows nothing and! I

am the man that has the inside track! Listen to me and!

And you can, of course, follow the programme on Twitter.

term, but they're hardly new subjects on the timetable. The three

classics - flags, parades and 'the past' are still the hot topics and

the US diplomat Richard Haass has made it clear they're top of his

talks agenda which began earlier this week. But what precisely led

talks agenda which began earlier the US to feel it has to give us a

helping hand once again? I'm joined live from our studio in Washington

by the former presidential adviser, Nancy Soderberg.

Thank you for joining us, how surprised are you that 15 years

after the signing of the Good Friday agreement, Northern Ireland needs

another senior US figure to come and broker a deal with the local

parties? I think it is unfortunate that more progress hasn't been made,

parties? I think it is unfortunate but you have to step back and

realise how far the parties have come in the 15 years since the Good

Friday agreement. I was in Northern come in the 15 years since the Good

Ireland in June and it was a vastly come in the 15 years since the Good

improved progress they have made. All across the history of this

conflict, the parties have sometimes needed an outside boys that could

listen to both sides and help to bridge the gap. -- outside boys.

Richard Haass is a very distinguished diplomat, I have no

doubt he will do a fantastic job and listen to both sides and try to find

a way forward. They just have to. To be arguing about these issues 15

years on does not help, as you programme said to go, the economy

they should be having a normal life, getting jobs, investing,

moving forward and putting these things aside. There is a real

commitment from the Obama Administration, also, the vice

president as well, to do whatever we can. It is important to remember

that Dr Haass is a private citizen can. It is important to remember

and he was invited by the two parties, the two top leaders to

come, and he has come here, so it has not been driven by the White

House. I accept that, but it is still clear that the White House is

concerned about how things unfolded here in the last 12 months. Do you

think there was one thing that led President Obama to the conclusion

that Northern Ireland needed to be back on his list of things to fix?

First of all, they asked, they had the sense to know that they needed

help with these bridges. He has always been interested in Northern

Ireland, he made it clear from well before his presidency that he would

be there as and when the parties needed it. The vice president is

Irish, he feels like he needs to try to do what he can. Democrats,

Republicans, America is committed to to do what he can. Democrats,

helping our friends both in Dublin, in Belfast and in the UK, in London.

We want to help to try to figure out the best way we can pray a role. --

play a role. When the US broke with tradition in the 1990s and decided

to get involved, the two sides had trouble talking to each other, trust

had broken down so far that both sides would come to us and say, can

you guarantee the other side can do this? I would say no, but they made

a commitment to the US government that we do not expect them to break,

so that was a way to talk to each other to the trusted, honest broker

of the United States. One would hope that they would be further along,

the reality is, they need assistance and had the sense to do it. I

commend the leadership in Northern Ireland for recognising that they

needed some help and having the political guts to ask for it. It is

not easy to ask for help and I commend them for doing that, and I

have no doubt that these talks will help to get past the current

impasse. It must be difficult for you that Northern Ireland has forced

its way back onto the political agenda in Washington. Are you not

disappointed that local politicians have failed to move beyond where

they currently are? They are still stuck on problems from 15 years ago.

Yes, I had not been there in a while, and I was frankly surprised

that some of these issues are still causing problems. On the other hand,

you have to step back and look at how far the parties have come.

Nobody thinks this is a reversible. Nobody expect to go back to the days

of the troubles were many people are you replying. -- were many people

were dying. It is time to go on and you replying. -- were many people

get these issues resolved, so that you can get investment so young

people have jobs and you can begin to expand the economy and economic

opportunity. The more people that have jobs and a prosperous life, the

less we will worry about these issues. I assume that you know

less we will worry about these Richard Haass pretty well, as a

private citizen and as a former US diplomat, what you think you brings

to the task in hand in Northern Ireland? He is the best America has

two offer, a seasoned diplomat. He Ireland? He is the best America has

has been in the White House, he has been in the State Department, he now

has been in the White House, he has runs a foreign policy organisation

and he was a special envoy under President Bush. He has a deep

understanding of these issues. I cannot think of a more talented and

appropriate individual to be here, leading these talks. He, I have no

doubt, will do the job he has been asked to do, which is to try to find

common ground for moving these things for words, putting them

aside, so that all sides can work on peace and prosperity, and it is time

aside, so that all sides can work on to do that. But nobody should

aside, so that all sides can work on underestimate how difficult some of

these issues are. Passions are still underestimate how difficult some of

strong, the pastors to leak big ghost in the room. -- the past is

still a ghost in the room. Maybe, for two decades ago, these issues

are just yesterday, they still miss their loved ones, it is not easy. I

am impressed that they had the courage to ask for help and that we

have somebody as talented as Richard Haass to lead this. Very interesting

have somebody as talented as Richard to hear your thoughts tonight. Thank

you for joining us tonight live from Washington.

you for joining us tonight live from Nancy Soderberg, thank-you. Well, Dr

Haass's arrival followed a long, hot summer of protests and violence

here. And there were two other events which caught the headlines.

Peter Robinson's letter from America which seemed to sound the death

Peter Robinson's letter from America knell for the Peace Centre at the

Maze Long Kesh site, and the controversial IRA commemoration in

Castlederg. Our Political Correspondent investigates some of

the challenges currently facing 21st century republicanism.

August in Castlederg in County Tyrone, Sinn Fein remember the IRA

dead, in particular, to members killed by their own bomb on their

way to the town. Angry union is backed by some victims demanded that

the event be abandoned or banned. Instead, a message came permission

same politician, once at the forefront of the IRA. No MP,

counsellor, paramilitary, spokesperson, no mighty how loud

they shout will prevent me or any other Republican or comrades who

gave their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom and equality! Unionism

was on the lips of Gerry Kelly, but some claim that Sinn Fein's mind was

elsewhere. His speech was published in the local newspaper which was put

through the doors of people in north and west Belfast, a long way from

Castlederg, where he said would he was doing and said, we will not

forget these people that died and so on and so forth. There will be more

actions like this. Dissidents have captured a lot of the support on the

ground in places like County Tyrone. This IRA commemoration took place in

County Tyrone this month on a Sunday morning. Sinn Fein remembered three

IRA men killed by the SAS 25 years ago, just a few hours later, there

was a second commemoration. This much larger event was organised, not

by Sinn Fein, but by the families of the IRA dead, along with the County

Tyrone National braids Association, a nonparty event with no

high-profile Sinn Fein said the members president. -- present. No

Republicans at the commemoration wanted to appear on camera, but

privately, some claimed that they wanted to appear on camera, but

believed that Sinn Fein had gone to Castlederg to try and claw back

grassroots support, claiming that the party was now too close to the

DUP and pursuing a failed strategy. Sinn Fein has no problems here with

their reputation, no problems regarding Republican credentials,

none whatsoever. And you are reading it wrongly if you go down that path.

Sinn Fein is losing support in County Tyrone. We have got three

MPs, we have seven MLAs, we are the largest party in the district

councils in County Tyrone and Sinn Fein is losing support in County

councils in County Tyrone and Sinn Tyrone! I don't think so. A former

higher rate hunger striker act Tyrone! I don't think so. A former

acknowledges the current Sinn Fein electoral strength but claims there

are growing pressures over power-sharing and partition. There

are a number of reasons for what they are doing. There is a gland is

over the shoulder. The DUP was largely responsible for the flags

protest. It is putting down the hardline marker and Sinn Fein feels

obliged, naturally enough, to assert their position and claimed the

legitimacy. Relations have worsened. Loyalists have turned on police in

July over a ban in an Orange march and again in August. This was after

several thousand Republicans marched through Belfast. The internment

march was not organised by Sinn Fein. Some Republicans taunted the

party with a song about the Irish trickle. Take it down from the mast,

party with a song about the Irish you traitor, they said. -- Irish

tricolour. That song was sung as they went past in West Belfast. They

are being flown by people who are disenchanted, supporters of

dissidents, but certainly not Sinn Fein. It was given as one reason why

Peter Robinson pooled the plug on the peace Centre. This fractured

relationship with Martin McGuinness, already frustrated with

the DUP leader's failure to stand shoulder to shoulder with him and

condemn violence, from loyalists, just as he had done when Republicans

kill the lease officer. It was a theme picked up on IOU newness to

has been engaging with Sinn Fein. -- I unionist. The challenges are

significant, and for Martin McGuinness to use statements about

significant, and for Martin traitors is significant. Understood

absolutely by the republican movement but completely ignored by

the Unionist side. I do send some movement but completely ignored by

form of frustration from the Republicans that when they look to

leadership from the DUP and the Unionist side, they do not see it

coming. It is into this atmosphere that Richard Haass has walked. Some

say his success will depend on these leaders solving each other's

problems rather than looking over their own shoulders. Gerry Kelly

joins me now, along with Jonathan Bell. Gerry Kelly, first of all, it

has been a very difficult summer. Not many people would disagree. How

concerned are you at the current stand-off between Sinn Fein and the

DUP on some of these key issues? I suppose if you put it in the context

of the talks with Richard Haass, what happened was there was reneging

on an agreement which has been standing for a considerable period

of time. It is not first time. There was an agreement which would deal

with the three main sports areas, and that was reneged on full I

suppose it would have to be said that there is a worry we might come

to an agreement, but the tots have not been followed through. That is

some of the things that have been said to me. Perhaps you will get an

agreement, perhaps you want. That is the reason, as was said earlier,

while the Richard Haass part of it is important. We will come onto him

in a moment. Is it your view the DUP simply does not understand some of

the difficulties you face in Sinn Fein, has not taken the time to work

it out, or is deliberately misunderstanding those concerns? You

would have to ask. What is your hunch? My view is they are carrying

out actions which from an outside point of view is not understandable.

We are political parties in power together. We are power-sharing. They

need to agree everything. They come to an agreement. Sinn Fein has not

pulled out of any of these agreements. It is the Unionists. To

be frank, this was already gone well before. It did not help. It became

the excuse. What Gerry Kelly has to get is the logic that we will never

in the DUP a load of victims to be treated on the same level like the

people who make the victims victims. The man you shot in the face is the

victim, you are the terrorists. In Cassell Dirk -- in this place, what

victim, you are the terrorists. In happened was a grotesque and

offensive glorification of terrorism. It sparked the death

knell. It was a glorification of terrorism. It was an attempt to make

the terrorists the same as the victim makers. Why not ignoring? Why

the terrorists the same as the give it so much consideration and

why publicly allow yourselves to be seen to be so annoyed by it? Why

don't you just get it -- let it get on with it. We will never allow

history to be rewritten, terrorists to be put on the same moral plane as

their innocent victims. That will not happen under the DUP's watch.

You are sitting in government with people who you regard as a terrorist

organisation. You are sitting beside one tonight. That is a fact. Gerry

was a terrorist. We were very clear one tonight. That is a fact. Gerry

that the weapons had to be given up and democratic mandate given up. The

real difference tonight is the union has never been stronger. The Belfast

Telegraph poll showed us today 97% of people wish to be part of the

United Kingdom. It is a huge of people wish to be part of the

majority of the Catholic population. My fellow citizens want to be part

of the United Kingdom. It is not really what we are talking about. We

of the United Kingdom. It is not are talking about the Republican

strategy. Gerry has led the position. 97% of Northern Ireland

wants to be part of the United Kingdom. How do you respond to what

Jonathan Bell had to say? He said they would not allow the victim

maker to be the same as the victim. I was asked a number of months ago

maker to be the same as the victim. before it happened to go there. I

have gone to commemorations and I am proud to go there. I remember

comrades who fell in that conflict. Whatever it is seen as, the facts

are I do this on a regular basis across Ireland in commemorations

which occur throughout the year. In terms of this cliche, this slogan

about the victim makers. Were the paratroopers in Vic -- where the

paratroopers in Derry victim makers? Where the people who murdered

innocent Catholics victim makers? It is this nonsense of trying to

defend. There was a conflict, there is a series of combat pants. I am

not trying for equivalence. I am remembering to young men who gave up

their lives for what they believed in. It is not that I don't

understand. I want to move on. It is not that I don't understand their

anger, but they need to understand that people suffered on the

Republican side and they have no notion of that. I want to ask you,

why did we not see Peter Robinson standing side-by-side with Martin

McGuinness over the summer condemning loyalist violence? I saw

him standing beside Martin McGuinness, today, leading the

executive, pointing out that we had 41% extra investment as part of the

United Kingdom. The trouble is when your MP for North Belfast was hit on

the head by a brick, why was he not standing shoulder to shoulder

condemning it? Any form of violence has been wrong. But let us state the

facts. Gerry talks about the Roman Catholics being killed. Your IRA

killed more Catholics than loyalist. You are missing the point

because you are denying that there is any possibility of being able to

use your terms of being victim makers on your side. Let me ask you

a question about the violence of the summer. Today, we saw a report that

retail revenue fell by £55 million partly due to the flags dispute. It

has cost traders £15 million. Today, the chief constable told the

Department of Justice that the loyalist protest is costing £50,000

per day. The DUP want to see cultural respect and tolerance. At

that cost? There are other figures. cultural respect and tolerance. At

Let us talk about the whole economic picture. The PMI figures that show

Let us talk about the whole economic significant economic success. Hang

on. Loyalist violence over the summer... I said the violence was

wrong. What I said to you is, take the house price index, the fact we

have the lowest unemployment in the United Kingdom, lower than the

European Union, half what it is in the Republic of Ireland. And you say

it doesn't matter? An extra £55,000 per day? We have an increase of

foreign investment. Are you seriously sitting there telling

me... The Mac are you saying the BBC are not looking at the facts? I am

looking at the fact that I want you to and so the question. 80% of the

foreign investment... So you're not going to land to Ansa the question?

People taken off the claimant count. Why do you not want to talk about

those? Because I want to ask you about the cost of loyalist violence

to the economy of Northern Ireland and they might be interested that

you are not and soaring the question. Do you not think it is at

all important that the CBI says that this has got -- this has cost £55

million from the flag protest is? What is your message to them if they

want to march on Belfast and affect trade? The union flag of the United

Kingdom should be flown with dignity and with respect. It was a serious

mistake... If you call that dignity and respect... 60% of all the death

was caused by Jerry and his comrades, 30% by loyalists, and 10%

the state. What about the Richard Haass talks, is there any

possibility that they can move the debate forward? We have ended up

talking about the past rather than the present. Not even about the

talking about the past rather than future at all. Can Richard Haass

sort this out in three months? Diane to the questions you ask the. It is

Jonathan that does not want to answer the questions. -- you're

asked of me. I hope we can make progress. Sinn Fein has come in with

a resolution format. Sometimes you need these talks to have an outsider

to assist. In the end, we are the ones in partnership with the other

parties. There is an executive and we need to come up with the answers.

We have shown in the past we are prepared to move forward and

appeared to listen and appeared to compromise. We need to live there,

-- leave it there, we are out of time. Thank you very much. Let's

find out what the regular faces make of what is happening at the new

political term. We welcome Rick Wilford and Deirdre Heenan. Good

evening. Let's talk about Jonathan Bell and Gerry Kelly's debate.

Whether we like it or not it was more about the past than the

present. Yes, one feels as though one is not moving on and the

paradoxes the talks are beginning, they will last for three months, and

one hopes there will be like the end of the tunnel. You mentioned about

the weather here. The political weather looks extremely thundery and

overcast. It is very difficult to envisage any significant movement on

overcast. It is very difficult to all three issues that Richard Haass

and his team are looking at. They all three issues that Richard Haass

may be able to make some progress on parades but on the flags and the

past, that will not be resolved soon. What is interesting is Gerry

Kelly and Jonathan Bell are suggesting the other does not

understand them. It is the blame game, and people sitting at home

will be utterly dismayed. Richard Haass is here to talk about the

future, the thorny issues we cannot deal with, and all we talk about is

the past. You are to blame, I am to blame, the past. We wanted a clear

statement to say that the loyalist violence is utterly unacceptable and

any future violence is utterly unacceptable and we did not get

that. We did not get any clarification on that issue. We were

looking to point the finger of blame. People are utterly turned off

by that conversation. Jonathan Bell says very clearly all violence is

wrong, but also there is a wider context. You cannot lead people up

wrong, but also there is a wider to the top of the hill, leave them

standing there and not expect the violence is not going to happen, and

the amount of money spent is violence is not going to happen, and

something we simply cannot afford at any level. -- spent on policing. We

cannot afford that type of protest. Where use a prize we did not see the

deputy minister and the first Minister standing shoulder to

deputy minister and the first shoulder? It was quite telling. I

suspect what is happening in the DUP is some schadenfreude in relation to

the fact that Sinn Fein mainstream republicanism is looking over its

shoulder at not just the dissidents prepared to use violence but also

those who are more intellectual, who would argue that Sinn Fein has

brought Republicans together. There is that debate about who are the

brought Republicans together. There true keepers of the Republican

flame? They need to be careful about what they wish for because one of

the things Sinn Fein has going for it at the moment is the leadership,

which has street credibility. I suspect that the dissident

republican tale is not wagging the Sinn Fein dog as much as the

protesters of the flags are wagging the tale of the DUP dog. A word on

Nancy Soderberg quickly, she said she was surprised that these issues

had not been resolved and Richard she was surprised that these issues

Haass is the best America Avenue to offer. I was struck by her opening

remark when she said she was offer. I was struck by her opening

disappointed that more progress had not been made. She said we just have

disappointed that more progress had to move on. She said the US would

act as an honest broker. What an act to follow. He is the best America

can offer. He is coming in as an honest broker. We are in an arm

wrestle and we are stuck. We will tell us to release the arm wrestle

and we will move on. I was alarmed when he said he will look at

housing, education and the economy. What a task. He has two things, the

investment conference, because he can tell the politicians they are

investment conference, because he damaging opportunities, and the

other is the public. Let us have a quick word about social media. We

had the news that the health minister had spent £100,000 on legal

challenges to adoption by same-sex couples. Here is a tweet from Martin

McAuley. He says... He says he cannot wait until Jim Wells is the

health minister. It is notable that the power of social media is being

harnessed. It was described as a global village. You can sit in your

harnessed. It was described as a house and join the conversation.

Some people use it to be witty but there is a serious conversation

going on the opposition is appearing through social media. We have to

leave it there. We will be back later. That is the view. Here are

the thoughts of our new resident philosopher. The man who claims to

have the Stormont inside track. How are you doing? I got a new job. I

have the Stormont inside track. How wanted to do something where I could

help ring future to the people of wanted to do something where I could

Northern Ireland, bring them all together. That did not work out so I

ended up here. He knows nothing. I have being tried track -- inside

track. I have it sorted out. I will thought them and protect them. I

will stop violent people coming by like Congregationalists from

Ballymun head. What do you reckon? Green or orange. Cannot make my mind

up. You are barred! What are you doing here? You know him, he is the

new MLA for South Belfast. Nobody in south Belfast voted for him. That is

Stormont for you. What a summer we have had. Look at Richard Haass. The

American fellow. He came over here to tell us to wind our necks in. Has

only been here three days and already his head is melting. He

wants a wee holiday. The good people of Ulster have organised something

wants a wee holiday. The good people for him. A weekend break in a

caravan. If he thinks politicians for him. A weekend break in a

are bad wait till he has to -- have to listen to the sash. Things to do.

This paper is not going to read itself. We will have another insider

take on the programme next time. That is it for tonight, and will be

continuing the debate on twitter. Join us on there. I will be here on

Sunday. Goodbye.