14/02/2013 The View

On The View tonight - striking a deal on unionist unity, as an

agreed candidate emerges in Mid- Ulster is it a short-term move or a

long-term strategy. We are live from Moneymore with the latest from

Purdy purr. We have more here in the studio with John McCallister

and Rick Wilford. Count r counting the cost of elderly care. If you

think Northern Ireland is more divided than ever, think again.

can of course follow the programme First tonight - to Mid-Ulster,

where the two main unionist parties have reached agreement on a

candidate to fight the by-election on March 7th. They have backed

Nigel Lutton, whose father was murdered by the IRA in 1979.

Francie Molloy, the Sinn Fein candidate, was named under farltry

privilege by a DUP -- parliamentary privilege by a DUP MP. Gareth

Gordon is in Moneymore for us Coming from the victims' sector,

coming from a position where he is not attached to either of the

unionist party or to any unionist party, he has a background in the

LoyalS. In this comirbtsy, on this occasion, -- constituency, on this

occasion, the mood of the pro union people is to find and put up a

single unionist candidate. That is what we've done. I am very pleased

about that. I wish Nigel Lutton every success. Peter Robinson

speaking to Martina Purdy tonight. Tell us how the situation developed

and the announcement was made that Nigel Lutton is to be the

candidate? Well, there had been some speculation that the two

parties were working on trying to find an agreed candidate. Earlier

in the week, the speculation was that they were not being very

successful. I understand in recent days that Mike Nesbitt and Peter

Robinson went to see Nigel Lutton and he was amenable to standing.

With that deal between the two leaders they brought it to their

parties this evening in Mid-Ulster. What to we know about the new

candidate? Well, I am told he ticks a lot of boxes in terms of the

broad appeal within the unionist family. He was previously a young

unionist, I believe when it was afill traited with the Ulster

Unionist Party. He has worked as a research for David Simpson.

Although he was never a member of the DUP, I am told. He is a member

of the Loyal Orders. He's been personally touched by the troubles,

in that his father was shot dead by the IRA in 1979. I understand he

has worked around victims' issues. Mike Nesbitt was aware of him,

having been a former Victims' Commissioner. He is going to bring

victims' issues very much to the fore in this election. Was Francie

Molloy's candidacy an important factor in the selection? I think it

was. Peter Robinson says this is not about attempting to embarrass

Sinn Fein or any Sinn Fein candidate, who I think will be

asked some hard questions in the media going back to this allegation,

which he denies, under parliamentary privilege. There's

been no immediate speech from him. He is due to table his papers

tomorrow. Some unionists I spoke to tonight inside Moneymore described

this as Francie Molloy's worst nightmare. What are the

implications? Some significant figures have had to stand aside.

There is a picture of a sitting MLA in the constituency, who might have

thought herself in the running for the candidacy. She has stepped

aside or been looked over. Will Mike Nesbitt have to deal with some

people who are not very happy about what has happened? Well, tonight's

meeting was unanimous. She has signed Nigel Lutton's nomination

papers, as had the DUP's sitting MLA. This is going to cause a

miniearthquake, at the very least, inside the party. We know Basil

McCrea is on record saying this is a resigning matter. He said he

would not be happy with a candidate here. This is not a strategy he

supports. Although it has been described as a one-off, I spoke to

another who is very unhappy. He said they said that about another

by-election. I think we will see some significant developments in

the hours ahead. Thank you very much. With me in the

studio John McCallister, who locked horns with his party leader over

his concerns over sleepwalking into unionist unity and Professor Rick

Wilford. Thank you very much for joining us. Martina Purdy said it

will cause difficulties for Mike Nesbitt. It puts you in a difficult

position. Where does it leave you tonight? It leaves me - earlier on

this evening I spoke to Mike Nesbitt. I also spoke to my

constituency party and informed the party leader and the constituency

party that I would resign as a member of the Ulster Unionist party

imimmediately. I have sent an open letter, which I have given to you

as well, with the reasons. I have huge difficulty with the strategy.

I know, incident lay ehave known Nigel Lutton works for a victims'

group. I have met him. It is not personality for me. It is about

principal. I disagree with the principal of unionist unity. I

don't want to be a part of that. be clear - you have resigned? You

are announcing you have resigned? Yes. I've informed the party leader.

I have sent a letter with my resignation with immediate effect.

I am no longer a member. I know you spoke to Mike Nesbitt when you came

into the building tonight. Did he try and get you to change your

mind? We had a brief conversation. We made contact - he was not

hearing it from anyone else, or this programme. He didn't try to

make me change my mind. We agreed we differed about the strategy and

we were unlikely to agree with the strategy in the future. You gave me

a copy of the open letter as we came on air tonight. It is a bit of

a bomb-shell letter. You accuse Mike Nesbitt of contradicting his

policy of wanting the Ulster Unionist Party to be progressive.

You say he has abandoned that for a backward looking insular politics.

The last time - obviously coming on your programme does my programme no

end of good. The last time I was on here, it is when I was fired as

deputy leader, for apparently at that time of saying we were in

danger of sleepwalking into unity. I used that phrase that night,

looks like a tog, walks like a dog, probably is a dog. How much more do

we need to take? The week before - and that quote you mention in

September, Mike used a speech. I said to him that day I was very

supportve of those views, -- supportive of those views. This

entirely contradicts this strategy - this entirely contradicts that if

you are only looking to narrow down unionism to the lowest common dough

nomminater. He has opted to become Peter Robinson's junior partner -

is that how you see it? The smaller party in a coalition becomes that.

That is just the nature of it. They have 38MLAs. With me, 14 MLAs. One

who does not have the whip. You are done to 13 MLAs. We're not in the

same league as the DUP. The only way back is not getting closer and

close tore the DUP on all these issues. I will get some assessment

from Professor Wilford in a second. Does this mean it is an independent

MLA? This was a very difficult decision to come to. Certainly, I

spoke to the constituency party and I have always been grateful to them

for their support and help throughout my time. Yes, I will

stand as an independent unionist for the time being. Where does that

leave Basil McCrea, your close colleague? I suspect - I would be

surprised if he did not resign very, very quickly. He has said, very,

very clearly, much as you did previously, that if a unity

candidate were to be selected, he could not remain in the party.

think he's out of the Ulster Unionist Party. It is more a

question of when, not if. That's, for me personally, it is sad that

it has come to that - the strategy I disagree with. Where does this

leave the Ulster Unionist Party? He is pleased he's done a deal, but he

has lost one party member since we have been on air and there's a

prediction that a second one will go sooner rather than later? It is

inevitable. I think the option with John and Basil will have to

confront is whether the three combine to form an alternative

presence within the Assembly. That would enable them to have, in terms

of speaking rights and so on. In terms of the wider strategy, I find

it difficult to disagree with John. This looks like an admission of

defeat. If you just thought, well how can things get worse and here

they are fracturing over this issue. In fact, actually what the

electorate require is a clear choice between the more progressive

and perhaps the more conservative element. Which is perhaps John

McCallister's point? Precisely. It is difficult to see where this

decision is. Is this, for example, going to be a precursor to

something which will end up with the relationship consummated so you

have one larger party? The risk is, in terms of Northern Ireland, it

will not turn out to be a country at ease with itself, because it

will make politics here even more of an either or choice for electors.

I think that is damaging. What about Mid-Ulster? We have a new

candidate. When you look at the numbers - there's not a huge chance

of that individual wining the seat? Absolutely not. I think what is

interesting about this and I don't know Mr Lutton, but it is an

interesting choice. Perhaps a deliberate choice. This will lend

an enormous amount of emotion to this campaign. Probably it will get

bitter, I think. The fact that he was a victim and Molloy, the Sinn

Fein candidate, will lend heat and $:/STARTFEED. Hopelessly divided,

sheltering behind an ever growing number of peace walls and without

any kind of strategy for bringing people closer together. That's the

image many have of Northern Ireland. But as Gareth Gordon now reports,

that might not be the whole story. Almost 20 years after the first

ceasefires, the signs of division are impossible to ignore. Walls

like these are the most obvious signs of division. The perception

may be the two communities are living increasingly separate lives,

but perception is one thing, reality may be quite different.

is showing new patterns of population change in Belfast.

his office at Queen's University, this professor has been looking at

recent census figures. His findings are surprising. The interesting

thing is between 2001 and 2011, it seems segregation has fallen across

Northern Ireland when we look across Northern Ireland. There are

a number of things that could be going on. There are some areas

perhaps where there is genuine mixing and we could perhaps isolate

that and see what their experiences. Overall, there is the loss of

demographic momentum in the Protestant community, there are

more Prosser's since dying than being born -- Protestants being --

being born. That perhaps explains some part of the decrease in

segregation. There are fewer highly Protestant areas with a

preponderance of Protestants. is what has shown the largest

is what has shown the largest decrease in Protestant population,

down one quarter in ten years. By contrast, they contrast in the

contrast, they contrast in the Catholic population show and less

dramatic decrease. Public parks are supposed to bring people together.

Alexandra Park in north Belfast has its own war, men to keep them apart,

but a gate has been open to allow access -- wall. Genuine relations

are being built between communities. It is not a symbol of an enemy

community on either side, people are building sustainable

relationships. Is that happening? That is real. People see that. This

is an example of a piece gate opening and there is another that

has recently opened. People are living closer together. We are

seeing the generation occurring. It is minimal, but it is starting to

happen. This is a community worker from a nearby Catholic new large.

She said communities are increasingly mixing in social

settings, but living together is different. We have young ones, from

17, two senior citizens. They are taking part in the events we run.

As far as living together, I do not think things have changed much.

it changed? It probably has changed a bit. I do not think it has

changed a lot. At the Community Relations Council, signs of more

integration are welcome but they would like more help from

politicians. Even with these figures, it is still a divided

society. There is a long way to go. Anything that suggests the shape of

society is changing it is bound to be welcome. What is absent now is a

clear strategy for how we pursue it more vigorously. One note of

caution. The figures are from before the recent tensions over the

Union flag. But the findings so far may help those who despair that the

walls will ever come down. The cost of looking after older

people is under scrutiny after the Tories announced they want to limit

some residents contributions to their care at �75,000. Changes to

the system here are out to consultation. It is not clear what

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds

the Department of Health has in We meet to discuss this is the

chair of the storm and health committee of Sinn Fein and John

McCallister, who stayed with us to discuss an issue he has raised at

Stormont. I suppose you are joining us as an independent after your

announcement. Who should be paying for social care in Northern Ireland

in the future? It is important the discussion has started again and

that currently it is out for consultation. Without getting to

specifics, if we are talking about the health service being free at

the point of delivery, we cannot pick and choose which part is.

the problem is this part of care is very expensive. The report in

England recommended age limit of �35,000. And now the Conservative

government said it should be �75,000. Do you think people should

not have to pay anything? In we are serious about it being free, we

should ensure health gets funding and look at ways at which we

increase funding and to go back, it is an issue every party has agreed

arm. -- agreed upon. When we look at the issue of adult social care.

I am glad the discussion has started again. If we'd talk about

transforming care, we need to ensure people have resources in

place to do that. John McCallister was on the health committee. It is

something you have talked about a lot. Do you think our guest is

living in a fantasy world when she puts forward the theory that the

state should pay for care in these circumstances? She is right in that

most of the parties at any time, we have broadly agreed this was an

aspiration. Not dissimilar to Scotland. I would say that some of

what came out in the report was looking at bringing... If you had

to limit, you would bring a certainty. At the moment, you have

no idea. If you are paying for someone coming you have no idea

where the cut-off point is. There is none. You have no way of

planning how you will meet the financial commitment. That is a big

problem. There are people who are asset-rich but cash poor, people

knew -- who owned farms are houses and have worked hard. If that is

important. We need to strip this back. If we do that to what the

health services about, being free. If we pick and choose, do we charge

people when they go into hospital? We need to have the fundamental

debate that we agreed health should be free and we need to find a way

to fund health. If you agree it should be free, you have to put out

a plan on how you pay for it. We have the idea we wanted to be free

but we have not put in place a mechanism to pay for it. If we are

going to be serious about making a difference, let's be serious about

tax-raising powers. There is a reluctance to go down that route.

am not saying we need to bring in that, we could have a discussion

and say to people if there is a possibility your taxes go to

providing that, people will buy into it. We have come out of a 40

year conflict. What we need to say to the British Government, give us

the peace dividend so we have a level playing field for our people.

The difficulty is we have an ageing population. The proportion of all

the people in Northern Ireland in nursing homes is 3.5 times higher

than it is in England and Wales. This is a real problem. It is a

massive problem. We should celebrate getting old! It is fine

if you are looked after properly. People are terrified and people's

children are terrified about the implications. Some of what you are

saying comes back to the point of transforming to care and how to

keep people healthier longer. We need to find a way of funding in

health provision and care of the elderly. It is not fair that people

can lose their home or are forced to take measures like signing over

the family home. The system ends up like a dog's dinner. Would you

suggest a limit? We suggested around the first -- 35,000. You

would look at what is affordable. I would introduce the limit as a

staging-post to move to where you want to go. How would you pay for

it? Is admirable you want it to be free, but tell me how you would pay

for it? There is the same about spending to save. Every year, if we

ensure people are kept out of a hospital, we would save. We must

ensure the money... I know what John is saying that I would not

pre-empt the consultation. It is a debate that will continue

instalment and elsewhere. We can hear from our commentators. Rick

Wilford is with us. Let me ask about social care. Deidre, you have

been looking at this. Is it possible to do what our guest was

saying and what others would like to do? In has been discussed by

politicians and they agree ideally we would have free social care. We

do not live in an ideal world. It is about priorities. We know

Scotland prioritise social care and it is free. We have to say where do

we set the priorities? What priority do we attach to adore

social care. The pate -- the point was made clearly, it is welcome we

are discussing it but we need clarity. If you are planning care,

it is impossible without knowing what charges will be and what the

limit will be. If you look at the review, they said �35,000 was a

reasonable limit. The Tories went for more than double. There is an

issue around what is a fair amount and what people are willing to pay

and the expectation. Many people think if they have worked all their

life they are entitled to free care. But if it is a devolved issue it is

not enough to say it is an aspiration, we have to ask where

It is simply saying, here are all the problems, here are the

difficulties, we know it is complicated, we know people tonight

want to pay. They have no recommendations for the way forward,

saying this is the suitable way. We have a growing, ageing population,

with completion needs. -- complex needs. Today we have a political

wobble over the police questioning of Mr Kelly. He has been released

from custody. The fallout has been considerable, hasn't it? It is. It

was interesting that Peter Robinson, as soon as he heard this

announcement, he made this announcement about the dangerous

consequences this would have for the political process and ask to

see the chibl. What that indicates is how -- chief constable. What

that indicates is how difficult the talks between the parties are. That,

I think frankly, the forthcoming by-election will do nothing to stop

that situation. It is how he came out with that statement, which

suggested that there was something rotten.

Let's talk about tweets. There have many -- been many. Mine have from

News Biscuit. This is an News Biscuit. This is an

interesting one. It refers to the horsemeat saga. An

article said there was vegetarians with self-satisfaction over the

crisis that meat-eaters are facing. Who would have thought the Pope

would have pre-empted Basil McCrea in the resignation stakes?

We will have to add you into that tweet. Basil will not be happy.

Our Twitter account is very busy tonight after the resignation. We

hope have the letter of resignation up on Twitter and on the BBC News

website soon. Jim Allister, certainly a sense of humour with

that Tweet. Your look ahead? I am looking ahead to the debate next

week. There'll be some discussion about the state and whether it

accepts responsibility. I think the victims' groups are saying they

will not, even though it is clear that the fing ser pointing at them

that they will not -- finger is pointing at them that they will not

because they don't want to pay compensation. They will say they

accept the stigma, but not the blame. I think there'll be a strong

lobby group saying the State must accept the blame, given they had

report of young girls who did not have a bus ticket and were sent to

this places for a number of years. You are looking ahead to Eastleigh?

It is coming early as it were. We will get two by-elections within

the space of a week. Eastleigh in a fortnight, Mid-Ulster the following

week. Particularly exciting. It is fascinating. We will follow it blow