17/01/2013 The View

Fein. It's not sincere. What's behind the launch of Sinn Fein's

border poll campaign? We'll have the thoughts of Gerry Adams. And

from their views on polls, protests and politics, we'll hear from The

View's commentators this week, Paul And you can, of course, follow the

programme on Twitter. There was only one item on the

agenda at the meeting in east Belfast this afternoon. That was

stopping the violence, and for the first time, the UDA and UVF

community workers and clergy united to call for an end to rioting in

the area. They did not, however, call for the protests to end. We'll

shortly be talking to the Reverend Gary Mason but first fellow

clergyman Mr Gibson had this to say at press conference. I think it's

significant everyone is coming together collectively saying this

must stop. We hope and pray it's a turning point, but it's not the

total answer. Other work has to be done behind and in front of the

scenes, wherever, to try to make sure this statement is followed up.

With me is Reverend Gary Mason from the east Belfast Mission. You're

involved in these conversations. Are you confident it will work?

a lot of conversations took place primarily from Monday until

literally early morning today with a multiplicity of people to bring

this statement together. I think one of the key things, as Mervyn

has mentioned, it's a very wide- ranging body. It was a grass-roots

movement that put this together. No-one person or organisation can

claim total responsibility. I think that's the strength of it - this

whole unified approach calling to an end to the street violence.

confident that in the loyalist paramilitaries that there is

discipline there? They'll adhere to it? I have had conversations with

the UDF TUDA and the Red Hand Commando. They have given their

word to me and to others they believe the violence to stop. I

believe they're genuine in putting out that statement. When it comes

to an end to violence, that's one step, but a lot of others will be

wondering why not call for an end to the protests? I think for me it

was important to begin this dialogue about balance. As I see

news reels beamed around the world, the biggest thing being highlighted

the violence on the streets. That's having a major impact on business.

We're in the middle of a recession. The protests - as I kind of look at

that whole scenario, we have four options. The first thing folk can

do is suspend the protests, give us a bit of breathing space, asking

the question, where do we go from here? Do you think is that likely?

Can you secure that? I don't know. I think the next option, I guess is

to stop them. If you stop them, I think the question society has to

ask themselves is do we create a vacuum. If they are stopped, is

there some political or democratic framework? The next option I guess

is go for a white-line protest. I suppose the fourth option is to

continue. If they do continue, I think one of the critical questions,

Tara is what this is doing to the economy, and I think I can say,

knowing many folk involved in these protests, there is no protestor who

wants to destroy the economy of Northern Ireland. That's the

country they love. It's the flag they love. So that's a question

that definitely needs to be tackled with and grappled with in the days

ahead. You obviously work in east Belfast. You have been there a long

time. What has this done to community relations? How far has it

set them back? It's undoubtedly set community relations back, but as we

said today,we have been here before. There were incidents in June 2010

or 2011. We had serious street violence, including police, over a

decade ago. They can be repaired, but it is a painful process putting

that back together as well. There's no question about it, and we still

are a deeply divided society here. There's no question about that

either. What do you see as the role of political leaders, then? Because

reading the statement and getting a sense of reading between the lines,

it sounds as if it was the community that put this together

rather than the politicians. It was a community exercise, but a number

of politicians have signed up to that, so there's no question it

arose from grassroots, but politicians were consulted. There

were conversations there and political parties have put their

name to the document. Could they be doing more? There is a feeling that

politicians can be doing more. There should be visits to the area,

et cetera of I think it is time that happened. I don't want to just

sit here tonight and wipe the floor with politicians, but I would

suggest that a visit to the area by some folk I think would go a long

way to restoring some of those relationships? Who? Peter Robinson?

That would be good, but I have to say as well Peter Robinson as First

Minister has done a good job as regards economics and investment. I

am not here to sit here and criticise people because we move

into that political framework that doesn't get us anywhere, but I

would say I think he should come and visit the area. I think that

would go a long way towards putting out a statement. Thank you very

much indeed. This weekend, Sinn Fein will step up their campaign

for a border poll. The party wants a referendum on Irish unity and

insists that a united Ireland would create new jobs and guarantee

stability and peace. Any referendum would have to take place on both

sides of the border. But unionists say the call for a poll is a stunt

and have accused Sinn Fein of fantasy politics. In a moment we'll

hear from the Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams but first our Political

Reporter Stephen Walker examines This is what it's all about - the

border. Once making this journey would have been slow and cumbersome

because of the number of security checkpoints, but now because of the

new road network, the trip between Dublin and Belfast is quicker than

ever. The border has dominated our politics for generations, and the

idea of holding a referendum isn't a new one either. 40 years ago in

1973, a border poll was held. The overwhelming majority of people

voted to stay in the UK, but the referendum was boycotted by

Nationalists. From the British Government point of view, it really

was just too removed, the issue of the border from practical politics.

Nationalist politicians realised that, so the SDLP at the time

boycotted it, so literally you have a 98% majority in favour of

retaining the status quo in '73 because Nationalists just don't

vote. Critics say a border poll is unnecessary. I think it's very much

politics for the optics. I think what they're trying to do is send a

message to their own supporters to say that united Ireland is still on

the agenda as far as they're concerned. I think they should be

mature enough and indeed show leadership to their community to

say that a united Ireland is not on the agenda for the foreseeable

future - certainly not in my lifetime and not in the lifetime of

my children. Unionists also insist that those campaigning for a united

Ireland must consider economic questions. The Irish Republic are

currently running a deficit of �15 billion per annum. Northern Ireland

runs a deficit of 10 billion per annum. The combined deficit of the

united Ireland is absolutely unsustainable for everybody. There

would be a dramatic crash in the standard of living, and that's just

for those people who are considering and worried about the

financial aspects, nevermind the emotional and the psychological and

the political attachment, which Unionists feel for the kingdom.

71.12% - CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

The referendum on the Good Friday Agreement was the last time a

single question was put to the vote in Northern Ireland. Under the Good

Friday Agreement, the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, has the

power to call a border poll, but she may only do so if she feels

there is a majority in Northern Ireland who want a united Ireland.

She'll be aware of the sense of feeling north of the border, but

how do people here in Dublin view the prospect of a border poll?

border poll would probably help us down here to know better how people

in Northern Ireland feel. Everybody knows who wants to be a part of

Ireland, who wants to be a part of Britain up there, so I don't think

a poll is going to be any use to anybody. I think there should be a

border poll. I think, you know, unionism has clearly failed a large

section of the Northern Irish community. I can't see why a poll

could be anything but beneficial and informative for the people of

the province to decide themselves and determine their own future

which relates to their own identity and how that splits out. What is

behind Sinn Fein's call for a border poll? Sinn Fein have been

trying to replace Fianna Fail as the Republican Party. They want the

electorate to support them, so I think it's about Sinn Fein trying

to carve out a place for themselves. Traditionally Fianna Fail have

always billed themselves as the Republican Party, and in their

ranks, there is some suspicion about Sinn Fein's motives.

initiative by Sinn Fein is all about Sinn Fein and not about the

people on the island. Fundamentally, I think it's a bogus proposition as

presented by Sinn Fein. It's not sincere. Recent opinion polls and

election results still suggest a vote on Irish unity in Northern

Ireland would fail, so why don't Unionists call Sinn Fein's bluff?

It would prove very, very divisive. To only have a border poll when you

believe you're in a position that you believe that situation is going

to change. We're not in that situation at the moment. It's

fantasy politics. It would retrench people into very polarised debates

at a time, frankly, when we should be trying to deal with the problems

that we have at present. It's 40 years since people voted on whether

the border should disappear. The political landscape may have

changed, but Sinn Fein insist the time is right to revisit this age-

Gerry Adams is in our Dublin studio. You're very welcome to the

programme. You have been accused in that report there of pretty bad

timing. Well, you know, we have been accused of many things, and

it's quite amazing listening to some of the commentators. I

couldn't see the televisual images, but it's - you know, it's not that

long ago we were told the peace process wasn't possible. It wasn't

that long ago when we were told some parties would never go into

Government with Sinn Fein, that we wouldn't be able to deal with big

issues like policing, so everything is possible. Far from Sinn Fein

revisiting this issue, we have never left this issue. Our entire

focus as a party - and we're an Irish Republican Party, so we want

to see a unity of orange and green on this island. We can't get that

unless the people agree, and we can't have that unless the people

decide to get rid of partition. During the Good Friday Agreement

negotiations, we negotiated an end to the Government of Ireland Act

and the citizens by a vast majority across the island voted in favour

of that and as you have just reminded us, as part of that

agreement, as a mechanism for a border poll to be held - that was

15 years ago. It's now time for a border poll to be held. What is

your timescale, then? Are you talking about holding it in a

couple of years? In ten years. do you realistically think that

will be held? I do think all of that is negotiable, but I do think

the next year of the Assembly would be a reasonable time frame. We're

not going gung ho at this. We're not, you know, making a big, mad

charge at our Unionist neighbours and trying to provoke them with

this issue. We want a discussion. And if there is a Unionist leader

out there who is confident in his or her unionism, who thinks that

the vision which they have of a union, of a partitioned Ireland, is

one which is the best way to go forward, then let them argue that.

Let them debate that, and I as an Irish republican who believe on

this small island on this small land mass that together we're

stronger, that, you know, a single island economy, a single Health

Service, us all working in unison, us finding ways to live our lives,

to work out issues which are at the moment bedevilling, our

relationship, lets me and others who think like me have the

opportunity to argue the merit of our position that we need a unity

Given that the current climate, it will be harder than ever to

convince Unionists of the merits of a united Ireland given the

controversy over the flag? I have to say I have huge confidence in

both Sinn Fein's vision and ability to argue the case but also

confidence in the Unionist neighbours because politics in both

parts of the island is in flux. One of the reasons and we heard about

Fianna Fail is about the corruption led by successive Fianna Fail lead

ships. And the way the economy has people looking for a better society

and politics is in flux in the north because of the peace process

and because of the end of the campaigns by the British armed

forces and by those who oppose them. It is a work-in-progress and we

have a lot to do and I don't for one moment... I am realistic, we do

not minimise the challenges which we are faced -- facing. What is the

evidence there is an appetite for a united Ireland given the census

figures we have had, given some of the figures from the Life and Times

survey. Where is your evidence, the Secretary of State will not call a

Border poll unless there is evidence that is an appetite for a

united Ireland. I live in the real- world. Secretary of State's come

and go, I forget their names. under the terms of the Good Friday

Agreement. He or she may be the person who signs the peace paper

but that decision will be taken by a British government. What is your

evidence? Please let me finish. I don't think the British government

has any intention of calling a Border poll. I do not think the

Irish government has any intention of calling a Border poll. The first

challenge for those of us who want a Border poll is to win that, to

secure by building a political support for it. What are they

afraid of? The people will have their say. It will not be left to

the politicians as to every citizen will be able to put their mark for

or against the continuation of partition and the Union. As a first

phase... This is nothing new. As the first phase of trying to win a

Border poll it would be it a convincing people and governments

but the time is now. The second big challenge of course is to win the

Border poll and to persuade people that is the best way to go for.

Let's look at the economics. �10 billion, the Treasury currently

pays to fund Northern Ireland. 15 billion is the deficit in the south.

You can see the argument, his Dublin going to pay the �10

billion? Were, we have been gathering figures from the

Department of fights. The British government are coy about how much

money they take out of the North and I think the figure they use his

17.5 billion but the Department of Finance tells us 12.7 billion is

taken out so the deficit is then reduced to around 7 billion. We

have not been able to establish a lot of firms which are

headquartered in Britain but which pay corporation tax, we have not

been never to find out what it announced it. You will find the

deficit is much less than what it is claimed by those who are pro-

Unionist. Do you think voters in the North want to take on the

austerity that is facing voters in the south? Well, there are many

many people in the North, including those in my previous constituency

who have known nothing else except austerity. The only thing is

different in people's psychology north and south is there was it

Celtic tiger in the South Sea people we used to... Some people,

not all... As we know, it's a different economic picture for they

will vote about their lifestyle and how much they can earn. Partition

is economically unviable. We have less than 6 million people, we're a

small landmass. The partition untrained a sectarian arrangement

and it incorporated British control what was the most industrialised

part of the island. What happens to be duplication Dunne bear with me.

It makes sense that we sell ourselves as a single Ireland, we

organise ourselves as a single Ireland. I remember Yvonne's ago

the argument being put for a single island economy. Even the most UN

pragmatic unionist and stands when it is to our mutual benefit that

there is a huge advantage in cross- border arrangements on issues.

about duplication, the Civil Service, how would to square that

circle, people doing the same jobs on both sides of the border, there

would be massive job losses in an united Ireland. Well, at the moment

we have two quite difficult economic situations. And we have

two economies. We have two arrangements which are facing away

from each other. Facing towards each other and creating and

organising our economy in a way which serves the people, in a way

which can use our image and use our ingenuity and strength, that's the

way to do it as opposed to what we have is competition, two states

competing in the international market for jobs. Martin McGuinness

and Peter Robinson have done a very good job on the back of the peace

process in bringing inward investment but there are still huge

amounts of arrears which has generational unemployment, young

people in nationalist and Unionist hinterlands who have never had a

job, will never have a job. We are nearly out of time. What is your

view on a statement from East Belfast and do you think we will

see Martin McGuinness and Peter Robinson of's shoulder to shoulder?

Well, let me say, we have had this discussion about a united Ireland

and no one has died. Tokely people are better informed having listened

to me -- hopefully people are better informed. It is time for a

debate, time to set a date for a referendum and time for the people

to have their say. I welcome developments today out of East

Belfast. I have got to know Peter Robinson very well, he has his

reasons for not shielding -- standing shoulder to shoulder with

Martin McGuinness. I am disappointed because Martin...

Martin in a robust and frank way made it clear and was part of part

of the leadership there was inclusive Breen political leaders

together, church leaders, civic society and the entire community to

show a way forward. I do think that that is what Peter Robinson will

come round to do. I'm disappointed is taking this time. I do think net

those organising protests need to, pardon the pun, Cobb on. The

decision was a democratic one, it was under advice and legally

approved. In matches what he is two parties agree to in Stormont and

there are two flags. The Irish National flag as well as the Union

flag. We are out of time. Thank you. Let's get a view from our

commentators on the border poll and the initiative in East Belfast. And

this week I'm joined by regular Paul McFadden and on her first

visit to The View Baroness May Blood. What do you make of what

Gerry Adams said? I have to thoughts. I am surprised Sinn Fein

is making such a big issue at this time in Northern Ireland. They have

been banging on about it for years. My feeling about it is one will

eventually come, this is not the time for it. It might come in the

future. I don't people -- blame people for that aspiration, if

people vote for it, I will agree to it if that's the way it goes. At

the moment, I do not see any appetite for a Border poll and

secondly I don't think people in the South wanted. What you make of

it, how does it play out in a nationalism? Do people want a

referendum on this question? I pick nationalists would want to see a

Border poll taking place cost of I am not surprised Sinn Fein want to

see a Border poll, shock horror Gerry Adams wants a united Ireland.

That's always been there you. about their supporters or the

dissidents, where is the message going? Stephen Collins made the

points but maybe it is part of the battle which we have talked about

before for Republican Hearts and Minds across the border as much as

politics in the north. The battle between Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein

for the constituency in the south. It might be to do with politics

across the border. It is also about Sinn Fein holding on to their vote,

there are elections coming up and they are laying the ground, looking

at us, we asked the Republicans. I do not think this is the time for

it. Stay with us. We've been talking about the community in east

belfast and their response to the weekend violence. Earlier this week

MLA's had their chance to discuss the issue. Despite the Speaker's

plea for measured language, a debate on Tuesday quickly became

bad-tempered. Let us be careful, let us not made a bad situation

worse outside this chamber. strongly advise Mr Nisbet not to

misquote me today. We have further lies been told. Order! I would be

careful in members calling members' lives. It would be an opportunity

to withdraw the allegation. warned of the member, be careful of

the terminology used in this chamber. Order! Let's not a bait

across the chamber. That is patently untrue and I would like to

clarify that facts now. Order! Withdraw! He is a surgeon is wrong.

He has made it on radio as well at he should be careful about what he

is beating. You all had opportunities. You had

opportunities. Order! Order! The member should not persist. Let us

move on. The member must be heard. Sectarian division on the streets

reflected in the chamber. It is unedifying to watch it. It is also

to show misquoting politicians. Having said that, in the past Derry

City Council meetings, thrown across the chamber, a fire

extinguisher was dropped on officers. We have seen worse scenes

than that and as long as they keep it at that level in the chamber, it

Do we not need our leaders to take some leadership? I take a different

view from Paul. Community leaders in east Belfast were trying to say

to young people in the streets, this isn't the way. Calm down. Go

the political route. Then we get the political route and they act

exactly the same in the chamber. They're not throwing stones but

verbal insults. That should not be the way they should be acting.

but if you get all palsy wla sy... You don't have to be that way. But

I do not think you get up and hurl insults at each other. That's the

bottom line. They're doing it in the chamber, why do it up in the

street? It's not the way for our elected politicians to get on.

lot of the weekly scenes have been depressing, and that's your moment

of the week. Let's have a look at the pictures. My moment of the week

was seeing Protestant people attack the PKK. The PKK have done a great,

wonderful job. They have stood between the two communities - the

PSNI. A lot of times they have faced danger to themselves and done

a wonderful job. It broke my heart to see them attacking it. After all,

these people are on the streets claiming they're British. They want

the British flag, and they were stoning their own police force. I

don't get my head around that I don't understand that happening.

And that really saddened me. Paul, your moment of the week It was the

fallout from what May is describing there. It was on the Nolan

programme last night. It became a snarling bear pit. It was awful,

depressing to watch scenes of fairly raw, ugly sectarianism, but

by the same token, at the end of the programme, we saw an example of,

you know, a very uplifting story when Joe Brolly appeared with Shane

Finnegan. Sadly, the transplant operation didn't work out. It was a

sesippient of a kidney from Joe. At the same time we saw the worst and

the best of the people in Northern Ireland. So a revealing kind of

programme from that point of view. It did show two very different

sides to Northern Ireland, I suppose. I did, yes. It did. The

best and worst, as they say. That's how best to describe it. While we

see these riots out on the streets in Westminster - they're viewed

worldwide. I still bang on - there's tremendously good work

happening in Northern Ireland. It's going to take a long time to solve

our problems, but it is happening, and what we see on the streets is a

very, very small part of that, a very small - where young people

feel they have been let down, and I understand where the young people

are coming from, but working class Protestants have always been bottom

of the heap, but there is really good work going on there. A lot of

people are doing a lot of good work. Are you confident then the

statement today will work? Yes, yes, because they brought the community

together. It hasn't come top down which I am pleased about. It's not

politics saying this has to happen. This is people in the streets

saying this is what we want to happen, and that's why it has to

now - I take the point the Reverend was making earlier. It would be

nice if Peter Robinson did visit and other politicians. Let's end on

a lighter note and your Tweet of the week? It's one - someone

earning the kind of money the rest of us can only dream about, really

- Rory McIlroy's Tweet confirming his deal with Nike or "Nike" - I

He's earned a vast sum of money in a short period of time. Thanks,