24/01/2013 The View

On The View tonight: Realignment or revolution - is unionism facing a

seismic shift? And will the Ulster Unionists

thrive in the new political order or join the long list of defunct,

historical parties? We'll hear from Basil McCrea, the MLA who's proving

such a thorn in his leader's side. Also: The peace walls should come

down in ten years, according to a draft report on community relations,

but just how realistic a goal is that?

And back in the hotseat - the professors with their views on

realignments and referenda. And you can, of course, follow the

Basil McCrea's date with an Ulster Unionist disciplinary committee may

have been postponed, but the relationship still looks doomed.

The Lagan Valley MLA's criticism of the party's flags policy has

already cost him the whip, and the estrangement looks likely to lead

to divorce. Then there's his close colleague, John McCallister, who

continues to publicly question the party's direction. So if the two of

them go, where will they go? Is it time for a new moderate, pluralist

party? Our political correspondent, Gareth Gordon, reports on the

dilemmas facing disaffected Ulster In 1985, opposition to the angler-

Irish agreement saw unionists unite. But it did not last. More than a

quarter of a century later, they were brought together again,, only

now, the DUP is the biggest party. What about those austere unionists

who do not want closer links with the DUP? Bows on a Cray's name has

already been mentioned with the Alliance Party. But is there

another way? Is it time to talk about forming a more liberal,

Unionist Party? David left the party after he was selected as an

Assembly candidate. I want to see Northern Ireland prosper. If being

part of a new party can achieve that, then yes, I would consider

that. It would be a very moderate Unionist Party, inclusive, where

all opinions are acceptable. It is not purely unionism with a

religious bias. Everybody, it does particularly cool are Unionists,

would be welcome, irrespective of their class, creed, or whether they

do have a creed. But what about the man who was stripped of the deputy

leadership? John McCallister chooses his words carefully.

parties are in flux. Politics is in a very fluid state at the moment.

We have no idea where things are going. He in 1974, the Unionist

Party was formed. Another picture he with my father in the late

Fifties. This for no -- former Ulster Unionist is one of the few

survivors. He believes his party is once more facing dangerous times.

What we need in Northern Ireland is to clear perspectives. Over the

next coming days, either my commencement and basil McRae can

find a way to work together, for the good of the party, and for more

importantly, for the good of Northern Ireland, they would be

better to go their separate ways. That would mean... It seems a slow

death. I'd go they work together, then basil should go his own way

and perhaps have a zone that a realignment. But I have learnt from

my time that to try and change by forming a separate party doesn't

always work because people will not always follow. The Ulster

Unionist's former director of communications believes realignment

has already begun. There is now no longer a need for a separate Ulster

Unionist Party. And DUP. They will come together, but it will be a

merger. That leaves a very large sex stir off small union has since.

-- sector. I'd do a litter of civic leading. People are disengaging

from the Assembly. But this senior Ulster Unionist says the party is

still relevant and plays down the notion that it is lurching closer

to the DUP. I have been in Unionist politics for a long time. But I do

firmly believe that mainstream Unionist opinion is still very much

concentrated on how old the Ulster Unionists are represented.

Nevertheless, important as Northern Ireland moves to the future.

think Unionism has not lacked his new parties. They have come and

gone, many without making much of an impact. Does it need a new one

now? Ali in foster says not. What I do see happening other people are

moving towards the DUP because they see a strong voice and leader in

Peter Robinson. People want to talk to us about moving over to the DUP.

Whatever direction these men take next, it is unlikely to lead to the

DUP. Gareth Gordon reporting. And the

Ulster Unionist, MLA Basil McCrea, joins me now. You will men to face

a disciplinary hearing tomorrow afternoon. That has been postponed.

What is going on? I asked for detail on the internal report, and

there are difficulties in getting that. Were you disappointed? I am

disappointed I could not get things sorted out tomorrow. I am looking

forward to the opportunity to explain things. You have put your

name to a statement. But then what? That is part of the reason why I

want to talk to you. I am confident about the case I have, and I have

taken to -- the trouble to explain it to my local association. But we

need to sort something out. Can we get some sort of coherent message

we're all happy with? Unless you resolve these issues, it will not

work with the electorate. report was about this debate that

seems to be happening. About realignment. You also say, perhaps

the time has come for realignment. Political party should

differentiate themselves or merge. Are you writing your own departure?

No, what I am saying is that way you have to brought a church, party

management is difficult. What you get his disengagement. That leads

to low participation in the polls. What we have to do is get politics

that mean something to the people. You need to stand for something.

They should not be mixed messages. In fairness to everybody, I have

respect for the party and colleagues, we need to have a

discussion about what is the right way forward. A lot of people are

confused as to why you and my and his men are not bosom buddies. What

is this discipline rehearing? is a question for Michael. I am

confident I spoke one party policy, I tried my best to put forward the

policies I saw. But he is the lead in he does not see it that way.

have been on the record to say he is right to take the action he has

done. I am quite keen to do that because I think I have a good case.

Are you engaging in it shadow- boxing? You could confirm, what

everybody believed to be the case - you intend to leave the Ulster

Unionist party anyway. That is not the case. I have had plenty of

opportunities. People have been talking about me going to every

party you can imagine. Whenever we had a series of bad elections, at

different people left. And I stayed because I believe in the Belfast

Agreement and call Ulster Unionist values. They did do a lot of good

work in the past, and I believe that is what is required now.

if the party is not moving in the direction you think it is, then the

party has to go. It may come to that. I may not even have the

choice. The issue comes to this - for the good of the party in

Northern Ireland, we need to have a discussion about what we believe in

because I joined a party that was behind the Belfast Agreement, a

shared future. All these issues we have unleashed we are not clever in

reopening them. I don't want us to make the same mistake twice.

you are a member of the Democratic Party, and you have been accused of

lacking self discipline. You have got to sign up to the notion of

corporate responsibility. If you can't do that, there is nobody to

blame. I can respect that position. I am quite happy, with though it is

not the appropriate place to do it, to defend my actions. That will

come out. I have spoken to quite a number of people in the past few

days. It was interesting to hear what some people within your party

and Unionism had to save. Some of them said Basil McCrae wants to be

thrown out. Is that true? No. I am aware different people have

different opinions of me. But I can tell you that the debate and having

now is I want to do the best thing the people of Northern Ireland, the

best thing for the party, the best way forward, I want to engage an

unwilling to talk. Is this a scorched earth policy? No, I have

no aspirations to leave the Ulster Unionist Party. It may be a

disappointment. I did, and I had a chance, and I was pleased with what

I got, but now, the influence you play is on policy. I do want to

play a will and that, and I do have Let's talk about the future. John

McCallister. He seems uncomfortable in the party. A lot of people have

asked questions about whether or not he will stay. We heard from the

other former Ulster unionist MLA saying if a new party is to be

formed, I'm up for it. I think the time has come. Is it your end game,

the establishment of a more Liberal Party featuring those two

individuals and maybe others? is no end game of in the sense of

is there a party coming out? There is an aspiration that John and I,

in fairness David, make no secret about. We are pro-union, shared

future unionists. We want to sell the benefit of the union to

everybody, no matter what their background. Is we have a particular

approach. We feel comfortable in that. We think that is the

principles that the party is founded upon. We want to take that

argument to the party and the electorate at wide. Maybe not as a

member of the Ulster Unionist Party? If there is a difference of

opinion. We had Fred going to the DUP. We have other people that seem

more comfortable about their relationship with the DUP. I have

to tell you, you heard Arlene talking on your package there, it

is getting a little bit too close. As Dermot Nesbitt said we need two

different parties, representing different things to represent the

people of Northern Ireland. Will you remain part of the party?

depends on the party. I believe this is the right way. I hope that

will be well-received. We will see what happens next. Thank you for

joining us tonight. Now, peace walls here should come down within

the next 10 years. That is one of the key find ntion a recent draft

report on community relations which has been leaked to the BBC. There

are 59 walls, gates or other physical barriers in Belfast,

Londonderry and Craigavon. Nine of those have gone up since the Good

Friday Agreement was signed almost 15 years ago. Here is the view of

one anti-sectarianism group. awful lot of work will have to be

done. That is one of the difficulties, that work. The work

isn't being done in the way that it should be. When we talk about the

millions of pounds put into cross community work, where is it going?

What is it doing? How is it challenging? That work has to be

challenging. People have to be taken out of comfort zones and

understand they have to live with others, from both communities. Two

peoples here, the British people and the Irish people. We have to

come to terms with that. We have to find ways of doing that. Our

political leadership over the last lot of years, even though we have

had the Assembly, have, I think, failed in that regard. We still see

the problems with flags and issues of identity, not only on the

streets, in our workplaces. Mark Devenport broke this story today.

He is with me now as is Dr Duncan Morrow from the University of

Ulster who is also the former Head of the Community Relations Council.

Welcome to you both. The draft strategy has been a long time

coming. It still hasn't been formally published? We have a

target date for bringing down Belfast and other city's peace

wants walls. We don't have a date. I have my hands on a draft which

dates back to late November. A few days before we had the whole flags

scenario playing out in Belfast City Hall. Maybe were in an

optimistic mood when they came up with these phrases. Whilst we have

a promise it will go to the leaders, we don't have a definite date for

this. What would you point out as the big headline recommendations?

This date of 2022 is striking for taking down the peace walls. We

have had VIPS, riebg like the New York Mayor, saying taking the walls

down. Local politicians are aware of the sensitivities of the people

who live in these areas. They have committed to this. It may be seemed

a long way when they committed to it. It is less than a decade away.

If it was adhered to, I suppose nobody will be giving odds on this

at this stage, it would mean that the peace wall would come down 53

years after it was erected supposedly as a temporary structure.

A reaction from the office of the firs minister and Deputy First

Minister finding its way into the public domain via a back channel?

suppose cheesed off might be the technical term. They are

disappointed and it's a work in progress and it is open to change.

Whilst the headlines about the peace wall, there is a lot in the

document about children and young people. Proposal of a buddy scheme

involving nursery school children and anti-sectarian education, talk

of art and sports to fight sectarianism. It is 110 page

document. I have only been able to give a flavour of it. Duncan, you

would like to say something about whether this amounts to the death

warrant of the Community Relations Council that organisation that you

used to Head up. Its future role under this draft publication

doesn't seem to be clear at all need to be clear, I have seen a

quick look at this document. Obviously, all organisations have

their life span. That is not the issue. The key question is, what

would any organisation that succeeds this actually do? What we

absolutely don't need is a compliance document, filled with

people who are political appointees making decisions which don't back

up the real work on the ground and don't do their learning. This is

experimental stuff. You need to get people supported and develop from

there. CRC is one thing, keeping this work going is another. What

about the targets? Are they achievable? Is it possible to have

the peace walls down by 2022? nact we are saying isn't. -- fact

that we are say it isn't will be something. We have waited for our

politicians to come up with the direction we are going in. It

should be possible in 10 years. We moved from the ceasefire to the

position of having an agreement in less than four years. If they are

serious and drive us. It is not about getting walls down, but

making people secure so that they know when the walls come down they

are safe. We need the work, not just the slogans. There are

recommendations about seggree gaited housing and education and

other issues which are very difficult. Things like flags,

parades and the past, there doesn't seem to be a clear line on those

particular issues. They have dogged this debate for decades? To be

honest, unless a document deals with community relations tackles

flags, parades and cultural issues like language, tackles issues like

the past and how we deal with it, we may forget. It anybody who

doesn't think this is the priority economic issue needs to have been

in Belfast over the last two months. If you are going to get visitors

and investors and bright people living here, we need these things

sorted. It's a core economic issue. The Executive has said - we won't

deal with shared future, we will deal with the economy. You can't

deal with the economy unless you deal with the shared future issues.

You need to take away the barriers to people living in peace and let

people know that their kids will know each other when they come out

of school. It's one thing for the politicians, Sinn Fein and the DUP

not to be able to apparently, at this stage anyway, agree on these

key issues, if they reach agreement those agreements have to be sold to

the people on the ground. As we know, we have witnessed in the past

seven or eight weeks that, in circumstances -- certain

circumstances welcome back difficult? They have paid the price

most of the failure to deal with these issues. They are living with

the walls. To point there is the wrong way. What is the political

direction? What resources are we putting into this? What priority

are we giving it? How will we measure success? If we deliver in

economy, education and free housing where people can live safely that

will be a success for this Executive. This publication has

been leaked. There is further discussion needed, not all of the

politicians have bought in at the top level or the Alliance Party and

the Ulster Unionist absented themselves from the latter stages

of the discussion? The Alliance Party and the Ulster Unionist have

walked out of the working group they didn't like how it was going.

Some of the ideas the Alliance have in replaition -- relation to flags

were being rejected by the other parties. They are talking about a

body that would set rules about when and where you can fly flags.

It is (not agreed) they may release a partial document where they have

areas where they can't agree. you very much. Back with us in

Commentators' Corner this evening are the professors, Deirdre Heenan

and Rick Wilford. Rick, to you first of all on the subject of the

Ulster Unionist. You heard what Basil McCrea had to say. What is

your assessment of what is happening within the Ulster

Unionist Party? That is one of the damaging aspects of this, the

perception of the party being divided and at war with itself is

toxic politically. This is a party that has been in long term decline.

It has lost 150,000 votes at Westminster-level. It's vote in the

Assembly is halved. Three leaders in the last eight years. This party

that is lacking clear party management. It needs all the

talents it can master in order to give it any kind of chance. It is

tearing it Seve part. Are we looking at a unionist realignment?

I can't see the electoral space for it. The one thing that is

guaranteed to get most unionists into the ballot box is a border

poll. Which is what David Trimble suggested. He knew it wasn't going

to work then, not going to work now. I don't see the electoral space for.

It we are a dominant two-party system, the DUP and Sinn Fein have

Hoovered up. The Alliance are struggling in the middle group. -

ground. There is an option to get people to the ballot box. Only half

the electorate voted last year. Particularly, that hit the

unionists. That is not a predictor of their being a need for a new

unionist party. I don't see it. were listening to what Basil had to

say. Do you get a sense as to whether he will stay in the party

or go? I don't think the question is "if" the question is "when" I

thought he was subdued. That could be a reflection to the emotional

ties he feels to the Ulster Unionist Party. I don't think it

will be as easy to say I'm going to leave. He was part of the Good

Friday Agreement. I think two recent decisions by the leader have

left his position within that party untenable. The decision to go into

the unionist forum and not to defend the Good Friday Agreement

which many people believe is their defining moment of the modern era.

When that happened, I think, for him to say - I'm a progressive,

forward-looking liberal moderate. Where will he sit within that

party? He sits uncomfortably. The difficulty is this very public

implosion. It's not new the Geoffrey Donaldson thing took five

years. People are turned off by that. Will he stay or go? I think

he he would be prefered to be pushed out than jump. We will find

out maybe next Friday, if not next Friday maybe the days or weeks

after. Let's move on. Your moment of the week? It has tonight

referendum of the European Union. It has been blanket coverage. I

suppose what is interesting for me is many people are saying this is

David Cameron's defining moment. Historic speech. I'm not convinced.

There are so many questions that it raises. Let's look at David Cameron

coming into the Commons chamber. He got a loud welcome from some of his

colleagues. Let's look alt that. -- let's look at that. I never knew I

was so popular, Mr Speaker. Quite interesting politics on the day

is interesting. There are a number of issues it raises. It shows he

feels the pressure from UKIP. It weakens his position, he is seen to

be following their agenda. He is also promising this election in

2017, people do not trust politicians. We have to look at the

issue around student fees. If he wanted to do it why not do it today

or tomorrow. There is nothing to stop him. We say a week is a long

time in politics, 2017 is a long time away. It won't appease the

eurosceptics in his party. He has said he would vote to stay in.

moment of the week? Ed Miliband when he was pressed by Cameron on

whether he was for an in or out referendum. He said that they

weren't in favour of an in or out referendum. That wrong footed him.

I don't think he coped with that well at all on the day. He has a

point. I think it's too early really to start thinking about this.

It is a blank sheet. Nobody knows what the powers he would like to

retrieve from Europe are anyway. It's a bit of a... He will have his

moment in the sun, but I think when had gets down to the nitty-gritty

the EU won't do Britain any favours. the EU won't do Britain any favours.

Your tweet of the week: Mine is She was referring to Herman Van

Rompuy the President of the Rompuy the President of the

I thought it was quite funny. They took a hell of a beating on the day,

when you think about the EU, the EU is a process of renegotiation

anyway. What are you hoping to see in the future? Local politics. The

DCAL committee is coming to Ebrington. It's interesting

Geoffrey Donaldson said he would like to see the Cabinet come to

Belfast. A move to bring politics to the local arena. We need to