31/01/2013 The View

On the View tonight: Empty words. Too little, too late or a

significant step change? Gerry Adams' apology in the Dail has re-

opened divisions over dealing with the past. We'll ask two Executive

Ministers for their way forward. From Belfast to Ballykelly. Is a

former army base the right place for civil servants? This is one of

the Department of Agriculture's offices but what about plans to

move its entire headquarters to Ballykelly?

And with their views on the week so far, commentators Pete Shirlow and

Paul McFadden. And you can of course follow the

The murder of Garda Adrian Donohue prompted condemnation from all

quarters across the island of Ireland. But the words of Gerry

Adams in the Dail remembering the IRA's killing of Garda Gerry McCabe

in 1996 have re-opened divisions and debate over dealing with the

past. In a moment we'll talk to two senior Stormont figures, John

O'Dowd and Edwin Poots. But first here's the Sinn Fein President

speaking in the Dail earlier this week.

I want to apologise to Mrs McCabe and there McCabe family and to

Garda Ben O'Sullivan and to the families of other members of the

state forces who were killed by Republicans in the course of the

conflict. With me now, two members of the

Executive: the DUP's Edwin Poots and Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd. Thank

you both for joining us. Why did Gerry Adams choose this moment, 16

years after the IRA murder of Garda McCabe, to apologise to his widow?

We had the tragic events and it was appropriate for Durie to set out my

party's view of the killing of Jerry McCabe and other garter

forces in the 26 counties. -- Tim garter. We are involved in a

process of the events moving forward. We cannot change the past

but we can change the future. Durie has made a dialogue. -- Gerry. We

are saying we need a dialogue, and we want to engage with Unionism and

other parties about how to deal with the past. Just to be clear

about the connection of the murders 16 years apart of these two guards.

Did Gerry Adams believe there was some kind of republican

involvement? No, and speculation like that will not help. We need to

let that the arts do their job and the PSNI are also involved in the

O'Donoghue investigation. Gerry Adams was setting out Sinn Fein's

view on that. Mr Adams has always maintained he

was never in the IRA so why is he apologising on behalf of comrades

he never had? He is apologising for the broader republican family. He

is apologising on behalf of Sinn Fein as an elected Republican Party

and setting out Sinn Fein's view of what their future can and should be.

We can read all sorts of things into this but we miss the point,

and the opportunity to have a sensible, calm debate about how we

as a people deal with our past. The do you accept that? I welcome the

fact that Gerry Adams has recognise that it is wrong to kill police

officers and he has apologised for that but I think it falls mightily

short. He cannot apologise for the 300 murders that took place in

Northern Ireland. Does that make it MMT apology? We have to ask the

question, can Gerry Adams man up? - an empty apology? Can he do what

he needs to do? I can recall when the ceasefire was declared at one

of the things they referred to was remorse and regret for the lives

that have been lost. I would love to hear those words coming from

Sinn Fein. Surely heart for it words -- heartfelt words. That they

regret it and they have remorse for what happened in the Troubles. The

rule of the IRA is not something people should be proud of. The fact

they were involved in 2000 murders. The loyalist in question expressed

their remorse and the violence did not go away.

They are also Rathbone to innocent victims and given the fact that any

person who resembled that was a legitimate target, I would... We

have to do with all of the deaths. All of the casualties of the

conflict that we want to put behind us. Despite recent events, we have

been quite successful. And we need to recognise, my view of the IRA is

different to Edwin Poots's review. My view of loyalism etc is

different. But all of the people who have been hurt and inflicted

hurt and those who were not in combat or hurt and we have to deal

with this. You also have to deal with the issue which is the failure

on the part of Gerry Adams as they see it to do with the issue of

apologising for the IRA murder of police officers in Northern Ireland.

You have to put that in the context of the conflict. Why? It is wrong

to kill police officers in the south. Why is it right to kill them

in the North? It was a different circumstance. It was a conflict.

Republicans were attacking the state, the state were attacking

Republicans and there were many different elements within that. We

can look at the role of the IRA within the conflict but then we

miss the entire conflict. Republicans often berate Unionists

sought supporting what you say is a hierarchy of victims. You are

creating a hierarchy of victims as far as police officers are

concerned? No. We are saying that those who have lost a conflict as

both result of the conflict that spelt out, we need to deal with it

as an entirety. We have to come forward and offer reassurance to

Unionism, to those who bought allegiance to the ground, and deal

with our role in the past but Unionism, the state, the Crown all

have to deal with the past as well and we cannot separate one

combative group and say, you have to do this. What about the widows

who received that knock at the door in the wee hours in the 70s and 80s

since then? What sympathy do you have to those people? There is a

difference between apologies and sympathy. Maybe for you. Let me

explain my position. I have every sympathy with the widow of an are

receiving office at or a UDR man and loyalist person who lost their

loved one. Their pain is real. But it is no different from the payment

of people from their republican side to his next civilians -- from

the pain of people. You accept their pain is real but you cannot

apologise. We have to do with it in the context of a conflict which was

the making of many decades of discrimination, partition, and

British Government involvement. you accept it is more complicated

than people would like it to be? course. But sorry is not that big a

word but it seems difficult for Sinn Fein. There officers murdered

in the Republic of Ireland. The circumstances were not dissimilar.

Why can they not come forward and say it to the widows and to the

sons and daughters who lost their loved ones, to the fathers and to

the mothers and to the brothers and sisters, we regret having killed

your loved ones? That is not a big ask. For Sinn Fein now to be

sitting in government, in a position of authority and

responsibility, it is about time that they said it. Have they got

the courage to do it? So far I have not heard they have the courage.

What about issues that Unionism have to deal with? Members of the

security forces were also responsible for killings and

members of loyalist paramilitaries, on occasion to collusion, were

responsible for deaths, and they have not been apologies forthcoming

in those circumstances? David Cameron was very forthright in his

apology over Bloody Sunday. That is one example. There are others

Republicans could quote. He also apologised for other things. There

have been inquiries. Republicans are good at receiving apologies but

they do not appear to be good at giving them at now is time for them

to step up to the plate and say they do regret killing people in

the Troubles and that they did not achieve their goals and they failed

miserably in their attempts to achieve their goals through murder.

We have already used the word of regret. The point is "sorry".

Families will make their own decision. But let's look at the

role of Unionism in this conflict. I lost a very good friend, a young

mother, who was a Sinn Fein activist and a law student. She was

murdered by loyalists. Only in recent months we have a DUP

counsellor, who refused to stand in sympathy with Sinn Fein people

whose fathers have died. The that is a basic school ground argument.

I use that argument because we have a role to play in dealing with the

past and I do except we need to deal with this issue sensibly. I am

conscious people watching tonight have lost loved ones and I have no

wish to add further pain, but we are sending out a message that we

need to deal with the past. Republicans have a view of how to

do with it. What is Unionism going to do? He is in a leadership role

but he is not prepared to offer leadership. He is grumbling about

trying to cast aspersions on us. Let me say this. The LVF, that

murdered Campbell, in terms of that organisation the last policeman in

the Troubles that was murdered was murdered by the LVF, constable

Riley. Was that motor also justified? Because it was wrong for

the LVF to murder a police officer? It was wrong for the first police

officer to be murdered by loyalists? It was wrong for the

majority of other police officers to be murdered by the IRA and it is

time that they said so. You have to sit side-by-side in the executive

and that must be uncomfortable. Your ministerial colleague Arlene

Foster spoke movingly on Talkback at lunchtime today about her

experience when the IRA, an organisation your party was closely

associated with for many years, came to kill her father in his bed

Off $:/STARTFEED. By a new set opposite Arlene Foster

in the Executive run, do you understand how difficult it is for

her? I have not heard her speak on it today, but I have in the past,

and understandably she speaks very movingly about it. I respect that

she has taken a courageous decision to enter the peace process with us.

But I also carry pain from the past, as do many others in our society,

and we'll have to make the choice to move forward. Our role is to

make sure that her experience never, ever happens again. Or the

experiences of my own family and others. And we have been quite

successful in that. But to complete this, we have a good deal with the

past. In one sentence, you were caught on

a hook here. It is a partitionist approach you're taking. You have

separated Ireland. Half of cloud are prepared to apologise, the

other half or not. I am not here to apologise for any one. It was never

Sinn Fein's role in terms of the republicanism.

It was Gerry Adams to stood up and made a apology. We're dealing with

the how the realities of the conflict spread out. Edwin Poots, a

final thought from you as to where to go from here. How do you

encourage John O'Dowd to walk down the path you think he needs to?

I think he should go home and watch this programme, had when he sees

himself scrambling about trying to justify things, he should reflect

he does not have an argument that does not stand up. The best thing

Sinn Fein could do is step up to the plate to say they regret what

happened during the Troubles, they have remorse and they are sorry and

they apologised to their victims. That would be a step forward and a

positive thing for all of us. Thank you both for driving us. --

joining us. Still to come on The View, the

power of the coloured -- political cartoon - we look at how

cartoonists have portrayed our divided society through the years.

It is time to call West - that was the pledge made by the Executive in

its Programme for Government in a bid to give the rural regions their

fair share of Government jobs. The first Department looks set to be

agriculture, but questions have been raised about the decision to

select a former army base in Ballykelly as the new headquarters.

Our correspondent has had a look inside Shackleton barracks.

This was once the road for soldiers and is soon to be the road for

civil servants. There are plans to bring jobs to the west and this

red-brick building inside the old army base is said to be the new HQ

of the Department of Agriculture. The Ballykelly site was ideal as it

was an Executive on-site. It will regenerate the local area, and the

area is ready positive about the move. The new department means an

investment of �26 million, with 800 jobs are expected to transferred to

Ballykelly. A great relief for a community hit hard by recession and

a series of economic blows. closure of the camp was big for

Ballykelly. Then we had at Seagate. A lot of people out of work there.

Around this area there is high unemployment. Bringing these jobs

and people here to Ballykelly, people using the services, would be

a good thing for us. These residents are hoping ministers will

give them some of the land for a new community centre. After all, it

is a vast site, around 800 acres, some of which is reclaimed land

prone to flooding, some of which is contaminated with lead and other

dangerous substances. As a gift from the MoD to the kitten. -- to

the Executive. The problem is it comes with a huge price tag,

millions of Pounds in maintenance and clean-up costs, so high it has

caused alarm inside Government. In fact, in 2011 the office of First

and Deputy First Minister's accounting officer thought to

Shackleton barracks did not represent value for money and

Martin McGuinness and Peter Robertson had to step in and is

your Ministerial direction. It does not happen very often. It has

happened in the past and is only done on occasions when there is

very serious concern and the civil servant is unable to stand over the

decision. The View can review that last autumn a second Ministerial

direction was issued, by the farming minister to have permanent

Secretary, when she selected the former army base for her he HQ.

He directed your civil servant because you wanted a business case

only on Ballykelly as opposed to having appraisals on other areas?

Were a big waste a lot of time going through all the areas where

it would not happen, this was the it would not happen, this was the

logical step. The Finance Minister logical step. The Finance Minister

logical step. The Finance Minister has to approve the Ministerial

direction. Sammy Wilson did not sign off on it, handing it instead

to the Executive, it is thought in part because other departments were

involved and uncertainty over staff, and access to the site.

The Sami is always going to have something to say about these things.

He voiced concerns, but I am content with the approach I have

taken. It is reasonable. Jim Allister asked about the

appraisal and was told it was standard procedure to fully examine

all options, but this would lead to considerable futile work. This all

staff memo obtained by The View revealed that struck and topped the

department's only criteria when choosing a site, with plum of a day

-- Limavady. He of half to choose a location.

But you going to go and cost every small area in the North? I think we

are on a good fitting. Their age group is currently in the

Soviet-style building in Belfast. The union says most staff do not

want to go west. The Minister has promised no one will be forced to

move and says staff from other departments keen to work close to

their rural homes can swap jobs. The union has other concerns. Why

did the Minister opt for Ballykelly when legislation says she must

first conduct and equality impact assessment? We have asked that

quite a few times and we have not received an answer. Before we

thought about a judicial review, all we wanted was an explanation.

Today, we have not received an explanation. I hope they will be

content with the response I have sent them.

I am committed to my equality obligations. It is something I take

very seriously and it has been done throughout the process. Even those

who support the idea of our rural HQ have reservations, insisting the

department should first complete the introduction of its new offices,

such as this one in Dungannon. What size of a -- head office is

needed, then decide where it should go, in that order, rather than just

lifting the current position and replicating it somewhere else.

The Minister says her rural direct offices are a separate issue. The

appraisal for Ballykelly will be ready this summer. In the meantime,

the Minister insists she is going in the right direction.

If you have any thoughts on that story or anything else on tonight's

programme, share them with the team and everyone else who follows us on

Twitter. The controversy over Gerald

Scarfe's depiction over Binyamin Netanyahu in last weekend's Sunday

Times was a reminder of the power of the political cartoon. Our own

political controversy is have provided plenty of material over

hundreds of years. Lydon Hall Library has one of the best

collections in the country and The View has been for a look. --

Our second librarian was Thomas Russell, who was a court man,

served in the British Army in India, became a founder member of the

Belfast United Irishmen, but he was reputed to have been a very

handsome man. This is a caricature of Thomas Russell from 1794, drawn

either by an enemy in love or an enemy in politics. This is one I

particularly like. It is called Belfast through English eyes. On

the right hand side you seek sectarian violence happening. This

is 1901. The police were keeping well out of it. There are so many

similarities today. Queen's University's PT Q4 1936, there is

an illustration here, the title is the Battle of York Street, 1990. It

shows that in the 1930s people understood, this is a dysfunctional

society. This appeared in the Belfast Telegraph on sixth December

1980. It is a caricature of Terry Wogan's Blankety Blank. He is

saying, I asked for a political solution, the answer was, black.

The two protagonists then were James Craig and Joe Devlin, and

they are predicted in a never- ending boxing match. In the 1980s

and 1990s, the two main protagonists, Ian Paisley and Gerry

Adams, cartoons across the world. Joining me to reflect on the art of

the cartoonist past and present and the rest of the week's political

news, Pete Shirlow and Pollock fan and.

Are you a fan? They are really important. They are better whenever

they had a run their. In Long Kesh a loyalist prisoner

came up and should be a cartoon when loyalists were represented as

the under false. He said, is that what people think of me? That

actual cartoon made him reflect on his actions and where he was in

society, so they were very strong. Our I remember going to a talk

given by Steve Bell, the cartoonist for the Guardian, and he said there

should be no off lips. There is a lot of criticism of Gerald Scarfe,

that he went too far. Is there a line? I think there is a line and

you can go too far, but they have to go close to the edge, and at

times there is a risk they will get things wrong. But that is the risk

they run. And imported in a place like Northern Ireland, that

politicians are made to sweat a bit? -- and important.

A yes, there is an old saying that someone who does not know how to

laugh at themselves, should be given a mirror. You can get through

to people very potently, a picture can see a 1,000 words.

The best cartoon is mad, the first thing you reach for in the morning.

Pete Shirlow, did you think things were moved on by what John O'Dowd

and Edwin Poots had to say to each other? It is a very secure the

debate, it has not gone anywhere since the Belfast Agreement.

Politicians don't realise the extent of trouble within the

society. Research conducted at Queen's University has shown since

1998 our suicide rate has doubled, increased particularly amongst

those we call the Troubles generation. When we look at our

neighbours, Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, their suicide

rate has gone down. We have turned victims into a lot of noise and

clamour, political footballs. We have lost the context of supporting

people in their victimhood and their needs. I think that is a

priority. One of the fundamental problems is, also, any mechanism to

either stop or draw a line under this, or to find truth, we're not

going anywhere without that. When John O'Dowd talked about being

involved in a peace process, it is also a political process.

They should remind people there is a whiff of cordite around a Sinn

Fein. Sinn Fein had 19 -- 19% in the

polls over the weekend, closing on the main parties. The let us look

at Europe tweeter of the week. Yes, it was on Talkback, Alex

Ferguson was against paying tribute to Malcolm body. Wendy Austin said

he was a great friend and do my lost his accent. Two Scots together.

There's, that would be important to Sir Alex Ferguson himself, he comes

from working class roots. It is amazing how many people spoke

of Malcolm Brodie as a great mentor. They interestingly, he started as a

political journalist, which a lot of people don't realise.

You met him, you knew him. I met him, all young boy asked for

his autograph once, he asked in his age, and he said 174, and walked

away, and the kid asked, is he really?! He had a very dry wit and

a lovely gravelly voice. And number of World Cups he

covered... 14 will cups. Could we do not have

been a shock to people if he was 174 years old.

He was, of course, 86. Pete Shirlow, what are you looking forward to?

The referendum, the questions are changing, if the question is, do

you agree that Scotland should be an independent country, and it will

be changed to should Scotland be an independent country.

People thought it was a leading question?

Are thought it was first at what -- interesting that one of the SNP

party said we would accept the second question. You would think

they would have pushed for the first question.

Well we have seen all these A-list celebrities in the city, but one

big weekend again today commented... Sir Ian McKellen is in town this

week receiving an honorary doctorate from the University of

Auch -- University of Ulster and giving the annual Chancellor's

speech. The years giving the first --

Chancellor's lecture for the first time ever in the Magee campus.

I heard someone asking the Chancellor, Jimenez but, how did

you get Sir Ian McKellen to, and agree this? He said, I just asked.