20/06/2013 The View


20/06/2013

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people will see when we announce our proposal is what is going to happen

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and I am confident the Unionist committee -- community will be happy

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with the proposals. It was right to reject the stadium so how much more

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right is it to reject something which is directly related to our

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history. Unionism divided. As protestors call for a halt to plans

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for a conflict resolution centre at the Maze, we'll hear from senior

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unionists with opposing views on the project.

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Stupidity and corruption killed the Keltic Tiger but can hard times

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rebuild Ireland north and south? The author Fintan O'Toole is live in the

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studio. And with their views on G8 and the

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Obama roadshow, I'm joined tonight by the commentators Alex Kane and

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Dearbhail McDonald. And you can, of course, follow the

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programme on Twitter. That's @BBCtheview.

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Opponents of a planned conflict resolution centre at the Maze Prison

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site have been meeting in Lisburn tonight. Critics include the Ulster

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Unionists, UKIP, the TUV and the Orange Order, which came out against

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the proposals last week. Now, The View has learned that days before

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the Order rejected the plan, senior Orangemen met the First Minister for

:01:40.:01:46.

discussions at the site. It was a chance for the DUP to persuade

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leading figures in the Order, but it appears to have failed. Our

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political reporter, Stephen Walker, has been examining where that now

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leaves the Maze/Long Kesh project and its potential impact within

:01:54.:02:04.
:02:04.:02:13.

unionism. It is the biggest building project

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in Northern Ireland and could create 5000 jobs but that is not what is

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attracting all the political heat. Critics see a planned peace Centre

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and a preservation of an huge block and a hospital would end up becoming

:02:28.:02:35.

a shrine to paramilitaries. Last week, the Orange Order rejected the

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development plans describing them as flawed and fundamentally

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ill-conceived. We understand that earlier this month before the Orange

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Order made an official announcement, Orangemen came here to the maze and

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were met by Jeffrey Donaldson and Peter Robinson. They were given a

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tour of the site. Even if the senior Orangemen were impressed by what

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they saw it is clear others in the grand Lodge of Ireland took a

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different approach. Those who went along from more -- our organisation

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were not persuaded about the merits of this particular project if people

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are genuine about a peace building and conflict resolution centre then

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surely the last thing you want to do is to build such a place at a place

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with it's going to cause sorrow and bitterness. Peter Robinson says the

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Orange Order did not criticise the project when it was first outlined

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in 2005. He insists the plans are acceptable. There will be no shrine

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at the Maze and people will see when we announced our proposals what will

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happen. I am confident the Unionist community will be constant --

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confident with the proposals. The DUP now find themselves at odds with

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other members of the Unionist family. The DUP leader is being

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swung round at the table by Sinn Fein on this. They have insisted

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that nothing goes to the Maze and less the conflict resolution centre

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goes there. It is the same DUP leader who won the proposition of a

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much less offensive proposition, that the stadium, was rejected

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because of its siting on the Maze and because the prison buildings

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within and because they could become a shrine, if it was right to reject

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a stadium at the Maze, how much more right is it to reject something

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which is directly related to our sad history? So what does this division

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in the Unionist community mean for the DUP? It must feel odd for the

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DUP not to be on the more orange side of every argument. They will

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have to calculate whether this will attract more voters. Of course they

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:05:18.:05:28.

have criticised the other Unionist parties. It has the makings of quite

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a row. A number of victims groups feel the DUP are wrong. This lady

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:05:46.:05:49.

represents RUC widows. It would be glorifying people who took men's

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lives and that is where the problem lies. It is hard to get middle

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ground on that. And what would you say to Peter Robinson wants to go

:06:02.:06:12.
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ahead with this? Think again. I think he needs to think again. And

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listen to some of the grassroots opinion. Both Martin McGuinness and

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Peter Robinson insist they have listened and believe some critics

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are scaremongering. Academic Pete Shirlow was involved in discussions

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about how the Maze site could be used. From what I know, it is simply

:06:39.:06:49.
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going to be a building. It is actually a place where you can save

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the security force history and a Unionist history. It is a perfect

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site on which to do that. In peace time, this site splits opinion.

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Unionists are divided. Peter Robinson hopes that when the

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detailed plans are made public at the critics will be satisfied. But

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until then, many opponents shown no sign of staying quiet.

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Stephen Walker reporting. The Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt was at

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tonight's protest and he joins me in the studio, along with the DUP MP

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Jeffrey Donaldson. Jeffrey Donaldson, it must be very hard for

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you to sit here and listen to an RUC widows saying your party leader

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needs to listen to grassroots opinion on the matter and think

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again. What do you say in reply? are listening. We are meeting with

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people. We are hearing their concerns. On the board of the Maze

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Corporation which will oversee this development, there are a number of

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former RUC officers. Does anyone seriously believe for one moment

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that those men on blackboard, former RUC officers, are going to create a

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shrine on the Maze site that would in any way diminish the memory of

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their dead comrades? That simply is not going to happen. It will not be

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allowed to happen. You say you are listening but does that mean you

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will be altering the plans as they currently stand? Nothing is fixed.

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We are listening very carefully to what people are saying. As Peter has

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made clear when the final proposals emerge I am satisfied that people

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will have their concerns eased. will persuade Danna Cochrane and

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others that you have got it right when she and they think you got it

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wrong? It will not be a shrine to terrorism. I can guarantee you they

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will be nothing in the new peace Centre that will glorify terrorism.

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I put on the uniform to fight the IRA. I had members of my family

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murdered by the IRA. I am not going to stand over anything that would

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glorify the actions of the IRA in any sense whatsoever. What is the

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problem with that Mike Nesbitt? boards of directors and politicians

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do not decide what will and what will not be a shrine. People decide.

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You see lamp posts, Gates and other artefacts which have flowers tied to

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them to commemorate with somebody lost their lives in a road traffic

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collision. People decide what will be a shrine. But you stand accused

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of political scaremongering tonight. The information has not been made

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public yet. These people can make their own minds up and they have.

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They don't want the retained prison buildings kept. Why did your party

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support the listings of those buildings? With all due respect, I

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still have opposed the listing of those buildings but your party let

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the prisoners out of the Maze and that was the greatest insult to the

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victims. Your party supported the retention of those buildings. You

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and your party have not been consistent in this at all. I thought

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tonight we might be able to have a debate with some degree of a lack --

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intellectual rigour but what we get is the guy with no talent on the

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football team goes and kicks everyone else. I have been on the

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:11:20.:11:27.

pitch a lot longer than you. I want you to answer the question, how do

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you respond to the fact that you appeared within your party to be

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enthusiastic about this and your former chairman David Campbell and

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now you appear not to be so happy? David Campbell has made it clear, he

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chaired a committee to represent -- representative but not as a

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representative of the Ulster Unionists party. First of all there

:11:59.:12:09.
:12:09.:12:13.

was no representation they David Campbell as an Ulster Unionists. He

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was employed as a special adviser. He is very clear that this was the

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first time the four parties of government got together to discuss

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an issue like this and it was agreed at the beginning they would be no

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:12:36.:12:38.

sensitivity. It was... So your party has been very consistent. What you

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had agreed by David Campbell's chairmanship was a comp resides

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:12:52.:12:53.

permission. -- compromised position. You are quoted in the Guardian in

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two 2004 saying the victims of the terrorists will not visit the site.

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You remain supportive of delisting the buildings and so they can be

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removed but the fact is, your scheme has them as a central part of the

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development. Let's not misrepresent the position. In 2004 I wrote this

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letter opposing the listing of the building. But they are listed.And I

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continue to oppose that. I continue to oppose that. The difference is

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this. And though the UUP control the proposal was to put the peace centre

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into the prison buildings, into the prison hospital. We have to move

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forward. The reality now is that we have this plan which we understand

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is about to be published. You were at this meeting in Lisburn tonight.

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Tell us what people were saying they're about the proposals and why

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they are opposed to them despite the fact the DUP supports them? There

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are two issues. Everybody at that meeting would like to see the end of

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the prison buildings. In terms of the new building, some people don't

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want it at all. I don't share that view. It is the most divisive piece

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of land in Northern Ireland. We need to have a debate on whether we need

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the centre and only then should we decide on the venue. Are you at the

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point where you may consider relocating the conflict centre to

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another place? Well, first of all, the centre isn't going to be in the

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maintained buildings. It is on the site but so is the Royal

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agricultural Society. You're not comparing like with like. We face

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two choices here. We can either develop this site, including the

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peace centre, and move it forward and create the opportunity of

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thousands of jobs and millions of pounds of investment... I'm sorry,

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Mike. You have just declared this the most controversial site in

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Northern Ireland. For a peace centre. Well, your party supported

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the peace centre. We've moved on from that. Mike is trying to deny

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it. My party has never supported that concept. We have made clear...

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The peace centre should not be in the retained building and that will

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be the case. But Mike Nesbitt's point and the point others have made

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in the coalition who oppose the present plan is that it be moved

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somewhere else entirely - off the place-macro site entirely. -- the

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The Maze site entirely. That is to suggest that my area is a no go

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area. As far as I'm concerned, my area is an area where they should

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be. The maze site is an area where I want people to invest. I'm delighted

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that the largest ever turnout of people at the Balmoral show was this

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year. That proves people do not regard place-macro as untouchable.

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:17:19.:17:23.

-- The Maze. We have taken the peace centre out of the retained building.

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Mike should answer this question. Why did he not object to the

:17:28.:17:38.
:17:38.:17:39.

planning application for the peace centre The Maze site our only

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objection is to placing that building there. Jeffrey has to

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answer a question. When I look at the D U P now I said to myself...

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very quick. The innocent victims don't want it there, the George

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Cross don't want it there, the Orange Order don't want it there.

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For whose benefit are the D U P campaigning to have in their?

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is a coalition opposed to having it on that site. What are you going to

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do about that? I'm an Orangeman, Mike isn't. My family have suffered

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during the troubles. I wore the uniform of the Crown in the Ulster

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defence Regiment. To say that all of these people oppose the peace centre

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is wrong. I meet many victims and many who served in the security

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forces, some of them in the Orange Hall tonight. I meet people in my

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constituency and beyond who support the peace centre and want to see

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Northern Ireland moving on. When will we see final details

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published? Within weeks and when it does I believe people will see very,

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very clearly indeed that the scaremongering of Mike Nesbitt and

:18:59.:19:09.
:19:09.:19:09.

others has been false. I'm sorry, we're out of time, folks. We're

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continuing to consult people across Northern Ireland and will do so

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until the final decisions are made. We look forward to seeing the

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publication of the plans within weeks as Jeffrey Donaldson has

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assured us and we will reconvene and discussed again. Thank you both.

:19:24.:19:28.

Banking and its role in the current financial crisis is dominating the

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headlines again as the Chancellor raised the possibility of Ulster

:19:31.:19:36.

Bank's assets in sold off from RBS. But has the culture which some say

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precipitated the crash changed? I'll be putting a question to a man who

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chronicled the Republic's economic crash but here's our political

:19:44.:19:48.

editor Jim Fitzpatrick. We live in a capitalist world ruled

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by the basic principles that we all understand - risk and reward. You

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take a risk and you get a reward - with profits if you're successful.

:19:58.:20:05.

The level of the rewards depends on the level of the risk that you take.

:20:05.:20:09.

But if you get things wrong, you shoulder the burden of that risk and

:20:09.:20:13.

take the losses. However, the great financial crisis of the last decade

:20:13.:20:17.

has turned that principle on its head - and nowhere more so than in

:20:17.:20:24.

Ireland. Here, the banks took enormous risk in pursuit of enormous

:20:24.:20:26.

rewards. They borrowed billions internationally and flooded this

:20:26.:20:32.

small economy, north and south, with cheap money. But when their lenders

:20:32.:20:37.

got worried and stopped funding them, the banks went bust. Under the

:20:37.:20:41.

normal rules of capitalism, that's where the story should end. The

:20:41.:20:47.

banks go bust, their lenders lose the money, small depositors are

:20:48.:20:51.

protected and new banks move in to fill the gap. But governments took a

:20:51.:20:56.

different view and judge the banks too big to fail, too vital to the

:20:56.:20:58.

economy, so they bailed them out with billions borrowed from

:20:58.:21:05.

taxpayers. Those extra billions for the tanks forced governments to make

:21:05.:21:12.

massive cut in public spending - austerity - particularly in the

:21:12.:21:14.

Republic, where the government itself went bust bailing out the

:21:14.:21:18.

bankrupt banks. And of course it turned out that the banks had never

:21:18.:21:24.

risked any of their own money, just hours. That's not capitalism. What

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is it? It's one of the biggest questions of our time.

:21:29.:21:32.

So who bears responsibility for what went wrong? I'm joined by the

:21:32.:21:41.

assistant editor of the Irish Independent, Fintan O'Toole. Who do

:21:41.:21:46.

you think bears responsibility? The politicians, bankers or the public?

:21:46.:21:52.

It was a triangle of doom. You have the bankers who bear primary

:21:52.:21:56.

responsibility because the boards of the banks were utterly reckless,

:21:56.:22:01.

utterly stupid and had no sense of social responsibility. In both of

:22:01.:22:08.

these islands - this is not simply a Republic problem - regulation which

:22:08.:22:17.

was ideological driven, as part of neoliberalism, and I suppose you

:22:17.:22:22.

could say that the public in terms of the democratic systems failed to

:22:22.:22:27.

get any continuity. We haven't had an enquiry in the Republic into what

:22:27.:22:33.

happened. We hear about good bank-bad bank. Some people like that

:22:33.:22:39.

but others think it's unhelpful. Ulster Bank may now be cut adrift

:22:39.:22:42.

from the RBS. Is that worth considering or will that spell

:22:42.:22:50.

further disaster? I think it's worth considering only if it accompanied

:22:50.:22:54.

by a very clear plan as to how Ulster Bank is going to play the

:22:54.:22:59.

role the banks are supposed to play in society, if it has genuine

:22:59.:23:06.

sources of capital for businesses, for individuals. One of the big

:23:06.:23:10.

problems with the way the bank rescue has been put forward, and

:23:10.:23:13.

there has been no consideration about which of the banks we actually

:23:13.:23:18.

need and which are parasitic and toxic. Because these activities

:23:18.:23:22.

became so mixed up, we haven't had any kind of systematic examination

:23:22.:23:26.

of what we think the social role of banks should be. The reality still

:23:26.:23:31.

is that banks were too big to fail and too big to exist. If they can't

:23:31.:23:35.

fail, they shouldn't exist and therefore the banking system really

:23:35.:23:41.

needs to be broken up into much more manageable bits. We had the news

:23:41.:23:46.

yesterday that NAMA pumped �15 million into two unfinished office

:23:46.:23:51.

development in Belfast. That was to get them finished so they could be

:23:51.:23:55.

let and that would create jobs and generate some sort of income for

:23:55.:24:00.

those who own them. Is that what we need to see more of? We need to see

:24:00.:24:05.

NAMA playing a very active role. It is the largest single property

:24:05.:24:08.

portfolio in the world, which is astonishing. It's on the grotesque

:24:08.:24:16.

scale. On the island of Ireland, a very small place, that has enormous

:24:16.:24:19.

economic consequences for everybody. It's owned by a rather

:24:19.:24:24.

opaque organisation. NAMA was said of the most extraordinary

:24:24.:24:30.

circumstances. Its entire existence was shrouded in a lot of mystery and

:24:30.:24:33.

we really still don't quite understand what kinds of processes

:24:33.:24:38.

go on in NAMA. There's not enough transparency in terms of the way

:24:38.:24:45.

this organisation operates. Do you think that what has happened has led

:24:45.:24:50.

to fundamental changes in people 's attitudes in the Republic? Less of a

:24:50.:24:52.

self-centred, profiteering consumerist worldview that some

:24:52.:24:58.

people say is what existed eight or nine years ago? Has it gone

:24:58.:25:05.

temporarily or has it gone permanently? I think it's gone in

:25:05.:25:08.

the general public to a large extent. I don't think it's gone with

:25:08.:25:15.

the institutions. We know from history that culture is only really

:25:15.:25:17.

change when people pay a price for the terrible things they do. It's

:25:17.:25:24.

not just an Irish problem. Bankers have not paid much of a price. The

:25:24.:25:30.

institutions have been restored. The southern government has put 100

:25:30.:25:33.

billion euros into the banking system and the banks are still not

:25:33.:25:36.

lending. They're still not behaving in any kind of fundamentally

:25:36.:25:40.

different way. If you look at the city of London, the same bonus

:25:40.:25:45.

system is back. We've seen spectacular collapses as far as

:25:45.:25:51.

business empires are concerned. Will we see more of that? Yes, there's a

:25:51.:25:55.

lot more of this to go and there's still a lot of toxic stuff to get

:25:55.:25:59.

out of the banking system. We haven't even begun to deal with the

:25:59.:26:02.

mortgage question yet so I'm afraid this banking crisis has quite a long

:26:02.:26:09.

way to go. Thank you for coming to join us. Plenty to talk what our

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commentators about. New to the view is Derbhail McDonald from the Irish

:26:16.:26:21.

Independent and our stall what Alex Kane, who is with me now and just

:26:21.:26:27.

alter the carpet to make sure I would trip up! -- style wart. Let's

:26:27.:26:34.

talk about Maze and the failure to agree on the part of those two

:26:34.:26:40.

members of the families. These two guys sit on the same Unionist

:26:40.:26:43.

forum, a body created to bring them all together in one big happy

:26:43.:26:53.

family. Tonight in Lisbon, Jim Allister was rubbishing the UUP. If

:26:53.:27:01.

the DQ PR rubbishing the UUP and they talk about... It was car crash.

:27:01.:27:04.

You're from the north you live and work in Dublin. What did you make of

:27:04.:27:10.

it? I'm from the north and the Catholic tradition and this is very

:27:10.:27:15.

much a dispute within unionism. I agree that Maze is one of the most

:27:15.:27:19.

divisive sites but within that, there is great capacity to transform

:27:19.:27:24.

it. We can't airbrush it out of history. I don't think demolition of

:27:24.:27:28.

that site would serve either side of the divide well and being mindful of

:27:28.:27:34.

the sensitivities... Jim Allister talked about the sensitivity and the

:27:34.:27:41.

sad history that we have. We need to process that history and do it in a

:27:41.:27:46.

way that doesn't glorify terrorism, doesn't become... I'm from the

:27:46.:27:50.

Catholic edition but I think there is huge capacity to transform

:27:50.:27:56.

history. In one sense, the maize is a monument of terror but I think it

:27:56.:28:00.

would be a good place to go back and remind everyone that this is why we

:28:00.:28:06.

shouldn't go back again. -- the Maze. Your moment of the week?

:28:06.:28:14.

Obama speech, which I think was astonishing. I prefer to hear a

:28:14.:28:18.

speech rather than just see it. Let's have a reminder of what he had

:28:18.:28:23.

to say. You must remind us of the existence of peace, the possibility

:28:23.:28:31.

of peace. You have to remind us of hope again and again and again.

:28:31.:28:41.
:28:41.:28:41.

thing about the Obama speech is that I it was particularly well do that

:28:42.:28:45.

but -- delivered but it was brilliantly written. It goes back to

:28:45.:28:49.

how we rewrite our history and understand our history. He was

:28:49.:28:54.

talking about himself in Chicago, a segregated city when he grew up. He

:28:54.:28:57.

said talking about who you wanted your children to play with and what

:28:57.:29:02.

schools, it would be our decision. It was an attack on the

:29:02.:29:06.

politicians. He said it was over to us in the hall. I wonder how many

:29:06.:29:11.

will rise to the challenge. A lot of people felt it was better

:29:11.:29:16.

constructive than delivered. staying with the Obama 's. I thought

:29:16.:29:20.

it was a good speech from Barack Obama but I thought that Michelle

:29:20.:29:27.

kicked his but in terms of speeches. I was at the Riverdance on Monday

:29:27.:29:31.

and it was superb. But it was very much about Michelle Obama coming

:29:31.:29:37.

into her own and despite the American media saying they thought

:29:37.:29:41.

her daughters didn't enjoy it, they had a ball. I think they had a good

:29:41.:29:47.

time. They looked a little bit bored. I saw them enjoying it. I

:29:47.:29:51.

think they had midges flying around their head. It must be tough being

:29:51.:29:56.

the first kids! They just didn't look too happy. They're teenage

:29:57.:30:03.

girls. They're board. They were dragged halfway around the world to

:30:03.:30:06.

watch their parents give a speech and the next was Germany. It would

:30:06.:30:11.

be terrible! They saw little is for the first time. I'm sure it was a

:30:11.:30:17.

highlight. -- they saw nettles. My Tweet of the week was just after the

:30:17.:30:26.

Lough Erne declaration. " is that it? Companies should pay tax and

:30:26.:30:30.

nobody should pay ransom strip pirates. Have we been transported to

:30:30.:30:40.
:30:40.:30:42.

1700 and back request my Tweet was a photograph. It was the cutest and

:30:42.:30:52.
:30:52.:30:57.

G8s. I'm looking ahead, but not looking forward, to the abortion

:30:57.:31:04.

legislation which kicked off today. We're convulsing ourselves in the

:31:04.:31:10.

Republic over that legislation but it ties in with what is happening or

:31:10.:31:16.

not here. It will be John McAllister and his opposition bill next week.

:31:17.:31:20.

It is vital they get this through because then they can prove they are

:31:20.:31:23.

worth something. If not, it's going to be difficult for them at the next

:31:23.:31:30.

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