08/05/2014 The View


08/05/2014

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Tonight: Another proposal on dealing with victims, but is anyone

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listening? We hear from a frustrated victims' commissioner, a former

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victims' advocate and the DUP which wants to redefine the V word. Also

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is momentum building for joint intervention to push things forward?

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We will hear from London and Dublin. There has been no progress

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historically in the peace progress at very difficult stages without the

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active engagement of two governorates. The British Government

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have been semidetached from the process. We have the latest in our

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Euro election debates as the Ulster Unionists take on the SDLP. Plus

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with the Giro d'Italia taking over many of Belfast's streets, the

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professors are back in the saddle in Commentators' Corner. And you can,

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of course, join the debate on Twitter. It has been a week in which

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the past has once again dominated the present. First the arrest of

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Gerry Adams made world headlines and then it emerged that letters sent to

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the so-called "on the runs" collectively covered enquiries into

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almost 300 murders. Shortly we will be discussing why, despite report

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after report on the past, progress seems impossible to achieve. But

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first, earlier today the Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness

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suggested that the Prime Minister is giving the DUP special treatment. I

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am very critical of the British Government's standard office nurse

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in relation to this process and their absolute, dismal failure to

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support the Richard Haass proposals. I have learned over the course of

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the last week or so that David Cameron, who has never met with Sinn

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Fein as a political party, even though there have been repeated

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quests for Gerry Adams and I to meet him as we did with Tony Blair, has

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been on a number of occasions involved in meetings with the DUP. I

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doubt if that facility has been accorded to any other party in the

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Assembly. That clearly amounts to a cosying up by the Conservative Party

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in advance of next year's general election where they may be prepared

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to offer some deal to the DUP in return for support in the aftermath

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of the election. The victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone, is

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leaving her job, but she said people have to have a pension for people

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severely injured in the Troubles. Do you think that was a helpful

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suggestion? Sinn Fein has always been supported for the need for a

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pension for those who were badly injured. We support that and it is a

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very important thing to support that, given they suggest the idea

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comes from the victims themselves. There will be a debate around who is

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eligible and who is not. If you have a scenario where no matter who that

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person is, and that person has been injured as a result of the

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conflict, that goes beyond them and into their families. Those families

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deserve support. Martin McGuinness speaking earlier to Mark Devenport.

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With me now is the outgoing Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone, who

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published a way forward document today, which is she says needs

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urgent attention by the Executive. It is not new ground, of course.

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Robin Eames, Denis Bradley and Richard Haass trod this path as well

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without any of their recommendations being implemented. Denis Bradley is

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with us and we are also joined by the DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson. Welcome

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to the programme. Jeffrey Donaldson, has the DUP been getting special

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access to Downing Street? Are you in bed with the Conservatives as Martin

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McGuinness alleges? If you look at the record, first of all we are the

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fourth largest party in parliament and we meet with all of the

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political parties at Westminster on a regular basis as a Parliamentary

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party. Last week's meeting with the Prime Minister was on a specific

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issue relating to Libya and at the request of the victims of

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issue relating to Libya and at the Libyan regime under Gaddafi

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issue relating to Libya and at the the IRA with heavy weaponry and many

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people died and were seriously injured because of that. The

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Guardian newspaper tomorrow is reporting all eight DUP MPs attended

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a drinks party at Downing Street reporting all eight DUP MPs attended

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with their families last Wednesday. Were you there? I do not

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with their families last Wednesday. Downing Street last Wednesday? Yes,

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with their families last Wednesday. and that was publicly known. We met

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the Prime Minister about Libya. Not the Prime Minister about Libya. Not

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our families were there. A deputy leader and a number of MPs on a

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delegation met the Prime Minister to discuss Libya. I do not know where

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this family stuff is coming from. Any other Northern Ireland MPs

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there? No, this was something that Nigel Dodds asked for in the House

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of Commons. He asked to meet the Prime Minister on this issue and he

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agreed and the DUP sent a strong delegation because this is an

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important issue, it is important to the innocent victims of terrorism. I

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am now being told it was the Prime Minister's children who were there.

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Did you see them? I am sure they were present in Downing Street.

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Did you see them? I am sure they would they be there? They were

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Did you see them? I am sure they probably in Downing Street because

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Did you see them? I am sure they they happen to live there and that

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is where the Prime Minister is resident. Somebody is putting two

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and two together and getting five. Before we move on, briefly, Martin

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McGuinness has accused your party leader of being a coward,

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deliberately ignoring attacks on leader of being a coward,

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Polish people in east Belfast. Is that true? Let me refute that

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entirely. The First Minister has spoken out against these racist

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entirely. The First Minister has attacks, we regard them as hate

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crimes and those who are attacks, we regard them as hate

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should be prosecuted. Gavin Robinson, the former Lord Mayor has

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been very active on the ground in east Belfast. He is not only the

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former Lord Mayor, he is a special adviser. I have met with legal

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spokesmen from the Polish community and we are supporting the call for

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the reinstatement of the Unite against hate campaign because people

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need to be protected against this hate crime and racism. Whoever is

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responsible, wherever they come from, they do not speak for us and

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we condemn these actions. Kathryn Stone, Peter Robinson has seemingly

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rejected your proposal to give pensions to severely injured people

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from the Troubles. It looks like you're set up recommendations is not

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worth the paper it is written on. It is very puzzling and disappointing

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the First Minister has appeared to make those suggestions. The

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provision for a pension for those seriously injured in the Troubles

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appears in the European election manifesto of the DUP. So how those

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proposals could be rejected is beyond me. We need to think very

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carefully about what this means. These proposals have come from

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victims and survivors themselves. We have been working very closely with

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injured groups. These are people who have been profoundly disabled in

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some cases and we need to do everything we can to afford them

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dignity. Are you suggesting the DUP has stolen your pension idea and put

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it in its manifesto? No, I am not. Borrow it? Perhaps our decisions

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have informed them to put things in their manifesto. We get again

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immediately to the victim -- definition of victimhood. I have

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said consistently in the time of my appointment that the commission for

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victims and survivors and the Commissioner is here for all victims

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and we have to implement the definition as it currently stands. I

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know there are some parties that want to see that definition changed,

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but at the moment the definition is as it is. We have to be there for

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all victims of the Troubles. Given the fact the First Minister and the

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Deputy First Minister was pretty negative, he said they were not

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fully thought through, do you believe they have got the legs to go

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anywhere at this stage or will they sit on the shelf as other previous

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reports? The proposal for the pensions specifically was something

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we were asked last year by the first and Deputy First Minister to work on

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and work on some more detailed proposals. We hope to have those

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specific detailed proposals to them by mid-June. It seems to me it would

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be extraordinary for the commission are not to speak out at a time when

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dealing with the past has come to the fore for so many reasons in the

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past week. This is a group of people who have sacrificed most and

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suffered most and deserve every attention from our politicians, from

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our Government and society. Denis Bradley, political outrage over

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money derailed your initiative and it is still sitting on the shelf,

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much to your frustration. Then we had the Richard Haass proposals and

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Kathryn Stone's proposals, but there does not seem a huge amount of

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momentum around to deal with this issue. There is momentum in the

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sense it is happening every day of the week. There is not momentum

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politically. I do not understand where the British Government are.

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Kathryn Stone's report is a very good report and it is the first time

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that victims from across the divide have spoken. That has not been

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achieved before. I thought the remarks today were disgusting and

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disgraceful. He patronised and insulted you. And that is not good

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enough for a First Minister to do that type of thing. Secondly, this

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is all about the definition of victims. Jeffrey try to bring this

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to Parliament six years ago. This definition was not made up by me or

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Katherine or the Northern Ireland Assembly. It was made up by the

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British Government. You are not going anywhere with this. The people

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suffering either 300 or 400 people in need of a pension. People went

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around the world with Geoffrey Robinson -- Peter Robinson and took

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a salary at the end of the week. These people do not get a pension.

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You are not allowing the victims or the Commissioner or this society to

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make that compromise that allows 400 people, most of whom are from your

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own community. What needs to be done? We need to implement those

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proposals. No matter how difficult they are? Of course, that is what

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politics is about. Peter Robinson says he will not put his hand to

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anything that involves people who perpetuated things in Northern

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Ireland. There are people who support that position. The

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definition we all work to is actually defined by the British

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Government and by nobody else and it is not going to change no matter

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what Geoffrey is saying. It is not going to happen. Actually you have

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to live with that reality. And I say this.

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to live with that reality. And I say compromises and they take their

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salaries. Those 400 people if you met them and lived with them for a

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week, I do not think this would be happening. It is time you stopped it

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and it is time your party stopped it and anyone else who stands in the

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way of it. The last two people who proposed it were from America, how

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many more people do you have to actually bring this to you on a

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plate and say, this cannot go on. First of all I do not want to

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patronise Katherine, I want to thank sincerely for the work she has done

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as Victims' Commissioner. I have spoken to many victims from across

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the community over the last two years who have been very impressed

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by what Katherine has done. The charge is that your party leader,

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his remarks were disgusting, disgraceful and insulting. I have

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read the statement Peter made and I do not accept that description. He

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is reflecting a concern that is held in the community. When Dennis and

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Lord Eyam is brought forward their report it was not just politicians

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of a payment being made to people, of a payment being made to people,

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well, to the families of the dead wood included people on both sides

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They are two who had committed horrendous crimes.

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respect. The political compromise was that people had to stop killing.

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They had to put away their arms and they had to accept the rule of law.

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In respect of victims, and you know, I engage with victims from all sides

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of the community. I have heard the views and there are different views.

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There are people who would views and there are different views.

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view, that as Catherine has articulated... And the British

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Government. And some elements... That is in statute!

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It is not... You have been trying to change it for six years. Is it in

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It is not... You have been trying to any manifesto? In any British party?

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You are fooling these victims. I do support the concept of a pension.

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Let me say that clearly. Only for certain people.. As Catherine said,

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the First Minister and Deputy First Minister asked her to undertake work

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on this project. We have been pursuing this for some time. She has

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also made the point that the law at the moment does actually prohibit

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people who have a criminal conviction, including compensation.

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I think we need to look at f there is going to be compensation and a

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pension for those who have serious injury, that we should ensure those

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who are responsible for those crimes do not benefit. In a sentence, what

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do you say to the injured UDR man who is being denied a payout and a

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pension now, because you will not allow that suggestion to go forward

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in case former IRA men are entitled to the same thing. That is what is

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happening. That is exactly what is happening. He would be saying to me,

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please don't equate me with a member of the IRA.

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Widows of RUC people came to us and said, we could be doing with a

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pension, we were treated horrendously. With respect, I have

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met many of the widows and many of the UDR soldiers. They are clear

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they do not want their loved ones... The state of this community and you

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need to realise that people want you to move forward. We need to leave it

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there. There are people who do not want their loved ones equated with

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terrorists. That is the reality. We have to leave it there. No meeting

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of minds, as perhaps we expected. Thank you very much for joining us.

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Martin McGuinness's concerns over British Government motives come as

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some poll tig tigss in the repub -- politicians in the republic call on

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politicians to get engaged with the political process here. Our

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correspondent has been investigating.

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It is hard to know where the border ends and begins. The British Army

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watch towers that once dominated and of littered the landscape are gone.

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So too the checkpoints, replaced by a mother way.

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-- motorway. The events have caused many to wonder whether the political

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process is as straight and as solid as the M1. With the process

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apparently more fragile than some believed, questions are now being

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asked about the role of the two Governments, the co-guarantors of

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the 1998 Good Friday agreement. There's no indication of a return to

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violence. There's no indication really of political progress. There

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hasn't been really for some months now. We have a thing where the

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politics is not working. It will not fail. It will not take us back to

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the bad old days of the troubles. There's no momentum there. What

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you've had is things looic the Adams's arrest has increased

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tensions. It was not just to be about the absence of violence,

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welcome though that is. London and Dublin appeared, at least

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until recently, to be of the view that the era of their hand holding

:19:15.:19:20.

of political parties was over. A former Fianna Fail Cabinet member is

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critical of both Governments and has suggestions about where more could

:19:26.:19:30.

have been done. You take the area of moving on, the all-Ireland body,

:19:31.:19:35.

where there should be more come competencies involved in the area of

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north/south bodies. Take a relatively small project, but a

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project which would be a profound significance was the construction of

:19:44.:19:47.

the narrow water bridge. That has support from north and south. It had

:19:48.:19:50.

support from all political interests. That has gone by the way

:19:51.:19:55.

side for the sake of a very small expenditure in the context of

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Government. At a time when many talk of a golden age in Anglo-Irish

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relation, the situation on the ground in Northern Ireland, so long

:20:03.:20:07.

a divisive issue between Dublin and London is far from guilded. There

:20:08.:20:14.

appears to be Irish frustration with British decisions, believing more

:20:15.:20:18.

support should have been given to the proposals on the past, parades

:20:19.:20:22.

and flags. Then there was last week's decision not to investigate

:20:23.:20:27.

the 1971 killings by British soldiers and the IRA's bombing seven

:20:28.:20:34.

years later. The British and Irish Governments are guarantors to the

:20:35.:20:36.

Good Friday agreement. The Irish Government has stepped up to the

:20:37.:20:40.

role in terms of its function. My own personal view is the British

:20:41.:20:43.

Government have been semi detached from the process. I believe they

:20:44.:20:47.

could have done more. The Secretary of State was unavailable for

:20:48.:20:51.

interview. In a statement, she said she stands ready to take a more

:20:52.:20:56.

proactive role if that is the clear desire of all the parties T Labour

:20:57.:21:00.

opposition believes it is ultimately up to local politicians to reach

:21:01.:21:05.

agreement. Experience shows that only happens when London and Dublin

:21:06.:21:09.

are involved. They should not be in the driving seat. Northern Ireland

:21:10.:21:15.

has devolved power. It is very, very important that political leaders

:21:16.:21:18.

step up to the plate and show leadership. There's been no progress

:21:19.:21:22.

historically in the peace process at very difficult stages, without the

:21:23.:21:26.

active engagement of the two Governments working together as one.

:21:27.:21:33.

I think that is absolutely crucial. With Richard Hass due in Government

:21:34.:21:37.

later this month, the two Governments may have to take a

:21:38.:21:41.

deeper interest in Northern Ireland. London and Dublin may not want to be

:21:42.:21:45.

in the driving seat, believing that is the role of parties. Many believe

:21:46.:21:49.

it is up to them to keep the foot on the gas and inevitably that might

:21:50.:21:52.

mean more time on the road for both. Now, we are two weeks away from

:21:53.:22:06.

polling day in the local Government and European elections. Tonight,

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we'll hear from our second pair of leading candidates. With me is Jim

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Nicholson, who has been an MEP since 1989 and the SDLP's Alex Attwood.

:22:17.:22:21.

Jim Nicholson, your party leader says you are an exceptionally

:22:22.:22:26.

influential member of the European Parliament. Are you really? I hope

:22:27.:22:32.

so. I have worked hard in getting there over all this time. The time I

:22:33.:22:37.

have been there I have certainly always described myself as a

:22:38.:22:41.

Euro-realist and one who works hard for Northern Ireland and to achieve

:22:42.:22:44.

for Northern Ireland. That is what I have done during that time.

:22:45.:22:49.

You know, if you look back, I have served as a delegation chairman and

:22:50.:22:54.

the prestigious top chair of the delegation with the United States. I

:22:55.:22:59.

have also been a member of the Parliament. I have been involved in

:23:00.:23:02.

many other aspects of the Parliament. Some people do not think

:23:03.:23:06.

we don't see too much of you from one election to the next? You know,

:23:07.:23:11.

Mark, maybe that is the responsibility of the media in

:23:12.:23:15.

Northern Ireland who don't want to seem to actually interview people

:23:16.:23:18.

who work in Europe. One of the difficulties we have is the jobs in

:23:19.:23:22.

Brussels or Strasbourg and that is where we have to do our work. And it

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is not easy to be available here as you will rightly know. So,

:23:29.:23:31.

is not easy to be available here as see us, but

:23:32.:23:35.

is not easy to be available here as communicate with the

:23:36.:23:39.

is not easy to be available here as That is what we've tried to do. If

:23:40.:23:42.

you talk to a lot of people, in Northern Ireland, one party in the

:23:43.:23:49.

United Kingdom, where people know where who their -- know who their

:23:50.:23:52.

MEP is. You have talked about where who their -- know who their

:23:53.:23:56.

claiming back the seat in Europe, as you put it. It is virtually

:23:57.:23:58.

claiming back the seat in Europe, as impossible for you to do that, isn't

:23:59.:24:03.

it? That is not what the Belfast Telegraph said last week, when it

:24:04.:24:07.

said I was knocking on the door of winning the third seat in the

:24:08.:24:11.

European elections. That is not good though - you have to go through the

:24:12.:24:17.

door. It will only take 12 votes for the SDLP in every ballot-box in

:24:18.:24:22.

Northern Ireland for the SDLP to win the seat. The poll in the Telegraph

:24:23.:24:26.

said 1,000 votes. So we are gaining. We are going to catch up and we're

:24:27.:24:30.

going to win. This is much more important than the importance of the

:24:31.:24:34.

European election. As we have seen, over the last number of weeks in

:24:35.:24:39.

particular, even tonight, people are fed up with the stagnation and they

:24:40.:24:45.

are fed one the stalemates. There is a gathering now across Northern

:24:46.:24:47.

Ireland of people who are saying that we are going to move away from

:24:48.:24:52.

that. We are going to move towards a positive, bold, daring, strong

:24:53.:24:57.

politics, led by somebody, like myself and others who demonstrate in

:24:58.:25:01.

Government that we are bold, decisive, that we got things done.

:25:02.:25:04.

That is what is needed in our politics now. Given what we have

:25:05.:25:08.

seen tonight and over recent weeks in particular. If there is a

:25:09.:25:12.

referendum on the UK's membership on the EU in the future, where does

:25:13.:25:16.

that leave you? We will see if there is a referendum. There will be in

:25:17.:25:19.

2017. That is what the Prime Minister says. If David Cameron is

:25:20.:25:25.

re-elected as Prime Minister, let's see there is a referendum. If there

:25:26.:25:31.

is one in 2016, 2018, we will say to people, vote to stay in Europe. Why?

:25:32.:25:37.

Because if we were to withdraw, it will be our small businesses, our

:25:38.:25:43.

exports, it will be our farmers and citizens and community who will lose

:25:44.:25:47.

out more than any other parts of these islands. One of the reasons

:25:48.:25:51.

why people are gathering to vote positive and for change in this

:25:52.:25:54.

election is because they want to send out the message that Northern

:25:55.:26:00.

Ireland has to be part of the European Union. As we reform it, we

:26:01.:26:08.

do not withdraw from it. Renew, referendum. It means we have a

:26:09.:26:12.

review of where the United Kingdom stand within the European Union.

:26:13.:26:18.

And then, re renegotiation between the UK and the rest of Europe and a

:26:19.:26:23.

referendum. Why do you need a referendum if you renegotiate

:26:24.:26:27.

properly? In the United Kingdom we've had the situation of being are

:26:28.:26:33.

we in or are we out? We have to make up our... We're in. If you listen to

:26:34.:26:38.

a lot of the media in the UK, they are saying that a lot of people on

:26:39.:26:42.

the mainland United Kingdom would actually vote to go out. Let's

:26:43.:26:47.

collar fi the situation. Oi - clarify the situation. I would like

:26:48.:26:55.

to see them being leaders in Europe. That is the challenge we face here

:26:56.:26:59.

in Northern Ireland. If we left, you are interested in the farming

:27:00.:27:03.

community and of many people say you draw a lot of support from people in

:27:04.:27:07.

the farming community. If we left the EU, where would the money come

:27:08.:27:13.

from to replace the single farm supply meant. ? -- supplement? It is

:27:14.:27:20.

a lot of money. I am saying I do not want the United Kingdom to jump off

:27:21.:27:23.

a cliff as far as leaving the European Union is concerned. Who

:27:24.:27:28.

else is going to... Let's have an assessment as to where we are, and

:27:29.:27:32.

what would happen if we left the European Union. What would our

:27:33.:27:37.

position be here? We are part of the UK that is a land front year from

:27:38.:27:42.

the sterling zone, with the eurozone. How would that affect our

:27:43.:27:47.

borders? Let's assess. Let's see where we are and then let's see what

:27:48.:27:52.

the cost would be to our farmer, our business, our people who are looking

:27:53.:27:56.

for employment and would the major people come in here and bring the

:27:57.:27:59.

jobs if we are outside the European Union?

:28:00.:28:03.

What about the referendum? We would worry about that when we get the

:28:04.:28:07.

assessment. You say you want a referendum. Yes, to collar fi the

:28:08.:28:14.

air. It is risky? It may be. The United Kingdom requires a referendum

:28:15.:28:22.

to clarify the situation within the European... We are to the tune of

:28:23.:28:27.

several billion pounds a year. In fact, it costs us money to be in the

:28:28.:28:33.

EU. Sitting on the fence is not a strategy for dealing any of our

:28:34.:28:36.

difficulties in Northern Ireland. And Jim has outlined this evening

:28:37.:28:40.

that he's sitting on the fence about whether we should be in or out of

:28:41.:28:45.

Europe. What should happen if we were out of Europe to those who

:28:46.:28:49.

export from Northern Ireland, when 55% of exports go into the European

:28:50.:28:53.

Union? What would happen to thousands and thousands of our

:28:54.:28:58.

farmers who get money from Europe, rightly so, in order to live on the

:28:59.:29:02.

land and produce of the good food that we eat and the good food that

:29:03.:29:08.

we can export as part of a growing a gri foods strategy? It is, in my

:29:09.:29:14.

view, folly for our people to suddenly have leadership that says

:29:15.:29:17.

when it comes to Europe, when it comes to the future of our country,

:29:18.:29:22.

when it comes to the character of Government you sit on the fence.

:29:23.:29:26.

That is not a bold, proper approach and I think it's very worrying for

:29:27.:29:30.

people to hear that this evening. I don't think it is worrying at all. I

:29:31.:29:34.

think what we have to review is the money we put into Europe - the

:29:35.:29:39.

sizable amount and how much we get out. Are we getting value for money

:29:40.:29:44.

for that money we're putting in? Let's cut out waste in Europe - like

:29:45.:29:49.

the travelling circus to Strasbourg. Let's take care of all of that.

:29:50.:29:54.

I want to ask you about your realistic prospects before we close

:29:55.:29:56.

this discussion. Some comment taters say your seat --

:29:57.:30:02.

commentators say your seat could be vulnerable if there is a Sinn Fein

:30:03.:30:05.

surge with transfers to the SDLP - that has to be a serious worry to

:30:06.:30:08.

you? The Unionist vote has been shredding

:30:09.:30:29.

and shredding. I have been in politics for a long time. Would they

:30:30.:30:38.

transferred to you? I am asking people to vote Jim Nicholson number

:30:39.:30:42.

one and then vote to other candidate of your choice. A leading member of

:30:43.:30:47.

Sinn Fein said to me that there was not a seat for you because they said

:30:48.:30:52.

if they thought there was a second seat, they would be running two

:30:53.:30:58.

candidates. Peter Robinson keeps saying stop the SDLP winning the

:30:59.:31:03.

seat because there are two seat, but on the other hand Sinn Fein do not

:31:04.:31:09.

want the SDLP to win. The character of their politics is threatened by a

:31:10.:31:13.

party that is for strength in Europe, it is against the stagnation

:31:14.:31:18.

of stalemate, that has the right values to bring this society

:31:19.:31:22.

forward. That is why last week an opinion poll in the Telegraph put as

:31:23.:31:25.

1000 votes short of opinion poll in the Telegraph put as

:31:26.:31:29.

European seat. That is how good it is for the SDLP. This time in two

:31:30.:31:35.

weeks people will make their decision and we will talk about it

:31:36.:31:39.

in the aftermath. Let's hear the thoughts of tonight's commentators

:31:40.:31:42.

on what we have been discussing. The professors are with me again, Deidre

:31:43.:31:45.

Heenan and Rick Wilford. Let's talk about victims first of all. What

:31:46.:31:48.

does the publication of the Commissioner's strategy add to the

:31:49.:31:58.

debate? It clouds the debate even more. This is a third, relatively

:31:59.:32:09.

recent report on this issue and it illustrates in the discussion that

:32:10.:32:13.

there is very little in the way of common ground.

:32:14.:32:19.

there is very little in the way of thinking, what they have got in mind

:32:20.:32:22.

is a criminal thinking, what they have got in mind

:32:23.:32:25.

scheme which was revised in March this year and that renders the

:32:26.:32:34.

described criminals as in eligible for compensation. My suspicion is

:32:35.:32:40.

using that as a precedent to put forward their proposals in that any

:32:41.:32:46.

assailant would not be eligible forward their proposals in that any

:32:47.:32:53.

a pension. That is a rough equivalent. Sinn Fein wants to

:32:54.:33:02.

extend it to those who were injured, or who died or who were responsible

:33:03.:33:07.

for political violence. If that is the case, it will be controversial.

:33:08.:33:13.

The whole area is controversial. I agree, they have not clarified

:33:14.:33:18.

anything and we are still in the very fundamental debate about what

:33:19.:33:22.

constitutes a victim and how do we decide what policy is appropriate,

:33:23.:33:27.

what services are appropriate until we decide what we mean when we say

:33:28.:33:33.

victim. Do we have an inclusive definition or an exclusive

:33:34.:33:37.

definition. Those are the debates we have not had. Richard Haass said

:33:38.:33:41.

there was a consensus and there was an issue that would not go away. We

:33:42.:33:47.

need a victim centred policy, not a victim vetoed policy. People think

:33:48.:33:54.

victims are being used as political footballs and people are not

:33:55.:33:59.

concerned with victims, they just want to make political points. Where

:34:00.:34:04.

does this leave the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister? They

:34:05.:34:10.

were showing an comfortable body language. It reminded me of the

:34:11.:34:15.

couple who were estranged, but they decided to stay together because of

:34:16.:34:20.

the children. They sleep in different beds, they work in

:34:21.:34:25.

different rooms, it is an awkward relationship. And when you come for

:34:26.:34:30.

dinner they put on a show. We need to leave it there, time has beaten

:34:31.:34:39.

us. That is it for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11:30am on

:34:40.:34:41.

BBC One. Goodbye. Ulster's last game against Munster

:34:42.:35:02.

in January Now with the Ulstermen's top four

:35:03.:35:04.

place secure, it's a chance to impress

:35:05.:35:10.

before the Pro12 play offs. Ulster playing some

:35:11.:35:13.

enterprising rugby.

:35:14.:35:17.

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