22/05/2014 The View

Tonight: The deputy leader of NI21, John McCallister, on allegations of

inappropriate behaviour within the party.

About three weeks ago I became aware there were rumours against Basil

McCrea. I spoke to him, I spoke to other senior colleagues as well, and

he looked me in the eye and said I have done nothing wrong. If and when

allegations come forward, if there is any name or whatever, I would

address them as best I can. I am quite confident I have done nothing

wrong. And it's all over: The canvassing's

complete, the candidates can do no more and counting starts tomorrow in

the local council elections. Freed from Commentators' Corner for

this polling night programme, Professors Deirdre Heenan and Rick

Wilford join our political editor, Mark Devenport, to give us their

thoughts on the highs and lows of the campaign and what to expect over

a weekend of results. And you can, of course, join the

debate on Twitter, that's @BBCtheview.

Tonight John McCallister breaks his silence on why Northern Ireland's

newest political party went into freefall just two days before its

first test at the polls. Mr McCallister claims his efforts to

investigate what he terms "rumours of inappropriate behaviour" by his

party leader led to an attempt this week to force him to quit the party.

We'll hear from both men in tonight's programme and we'll hear

more about the decision to quit the party's Executive by its Euro

candidate, Tina McKenzie. But first this report from Gareth Gordon.

It was one of politics great romances, ill at ease in the company

of others, they left the Ulster Unionists and formed NI 21,

promising fresh politics and aspiring to better. Just how did it

all go wrong? For a party to turn on itself is not clever. To do it on

the eve of its first ever election would be madness to stop it makes no

sense at all. Unless, there is something more to it. Something

which is yet to emerge. The issue is said to be its last-minute decision

to reject the label unionist. We have been listening to what people

have been staying on the doorstep. They have been saying they do not

describe themselves as unionist or nationalists any more, those labels

of the past. According to this candidate the issue hasn't been

raised with him. Absolutely not at all, no, not on the doorsteps. I

haven't, I have spoken to 500, 600 people. Nobody has mentioned it at

all. That was one of the reasons given

for changing. In other parts of the city could see how it could be an

issue, but in this constituency it hasn't been mentioned.

It is a competition you didn't need.

Probably not, no. Maybe something else? Maybe it wasn't the only thing

in play here, there might have been other allegations we don't know

about. Things happening in the party between John and basil but that is

not for anybody asked to comment on. This man shares NI21's Society at

Queens University and is a candidate. It is crazy, two days

before an election, it is not right to be fooling the electorate by

changing two days before, trying in a different -- is but attempt to win

votes. -- desperate attempt. I think it was done to rile Jon. Using basil

did that? I do. This man used to be the party's

director of communications. This has this may be an uproar or smoke

screen to get John McCallister to react in some kind of way. He was

excluded from the decision-making process, it was thrown upon at the

last minute, his head of policy was excluded altogether, so this was

some pretty -- provocative action to get him to leave the party or walk

away, or force the party to implode, before these allegations hit the

airwaves. I understanding is there is a mechanism between NI21 where

the deputy leader can remove or impeach the leader if inappropriate

activities are going on and that mechanism wouldn't be able to be

instigated if he were forced out of the party left the party

beforehand. Caught in the crossfire are 47 new

candidates who have put themselves forward for election for the first

time, and now feel very vulnerable. Myself and the other 46 candidates

have put so much work, so much of our own heart, soul, time and effort

into this, so to have somebody who is supposed to be so high up, and

offering an example to the rest of the party, I find it really

disappointing he would feel the need to give this interview right before

the election. He is reacting to something that was done that he

didn't agree with. But he did every acted to this after

the election. What he has done is unfair on the candidates such as

myself, he laughed put their time into this, and although he is of

course entitled to his opinion, giving it in the manner he did is

very explosive and undo the party any favour at all.

Whatever the designation, there is no doubt where they stand on the

constitutional question. I am pro union, I am from West

Belfast originally, from a nationalist background, but having

grown up in Northern Ireland this is my home, this is where I am from,

and I would always call myself Northern Irish so I have no issue

with the union and think staying as they stop is the rest of the party

prounion? They joined it and it has been like that since inception so if

they aren't I am not sure what they have joined. That is probably true

in a number of ways, party at war with itself, social media and all

too available battle ground will stop after this weekend will it --

will be anything left fighting over? Earlier tonight John McCallister

came into the studio to explain why he believes the party chose to

redesignate itself as dormant as other rather than unionist. He told

me he believes it was a move aimed specifically at him because he had

asked an external human resources company to deal with rumours of

inappropriate behaviour by Basil McCrea. I ask him to describe what

happened on Tuesday when he was summoned to a party executive

meeting to be told about the re-designation.

No one would take a strategy decision of that magnitude in a 15

minute meeting convened with no agenda, no discussion papers, your

head of policy not there, no ideas around that. You would need a much

wider meeting. It has been said I am somehow more traditional or

something, that had nothing to do with it. As you well know, I am well

on the record of saying I don't like the designation system, I would like

to see us moving away, I wanted to move away from the bus and then type

of politics. That meeting on Tuesday came

complete completely out of the blue stop I was out canvassing with my

colleagues. We were on doors, doing all of that, we hadn't much access

to e-mails. The e-mail was only sent at 130 or something, I got a voice

message from Tina McKenzie saying she had an idea to put past you, I

would like an executive to meet at 5pm in her office. I tried ringing

her back three times, and between canvassing I had a funeral to attend

to as well in the constituency. And then go to Belfast for this meeting.

I tried to find out what the meeting was about. Went to it in good faith

and this was sprung on me. Two days before your first electoral

contest was terrible timing from your point of view.

Less than two days, by the time the decision was made and the statement

was all ready to go, office and it wouldn't have been, all of this had

been prepared and choreographed without my knowledge, by the time

you get your stage, we were something like 36 hours from the

polls opening. Absolutely bizarre, crazy timing. This wasn't and isn't

about re-designation. This was purely about the allegations against

Basil McCrea. You say the research and #

redesignate and decision was an attempt to provoke you into leaving

the party, what does that mean, what is your logic?

Because of the process that has led to some of these, three weeks ago I

became aware that there were rumours against Basil McCrea, I have spoken

to him, I spoke to other senior colleagues as well, Basil up at Tina

McKenzie's house was stop he said he had done nothing wrong. I said that

is fine. But looking and judging by best practice, we should bring in

outside professionals. Bring them in, investigate, speak to staff, if

there are any issues there, anybody needs support, counselling,

whatever, let's do that. Let's be pre-emptive, let's just look and see

if we have any issues, if there are things we need as an employer to do

better and offer people all of that type of good practice.

You talk about rumours concerning your party leader. Are you talking

about allegations of inappropriate behaviour on the part of Mr MacRae?

I was talking purely about rumours, I had received neither a formal nor

informal complete against Basil McCrea. But I had started this

process just mainly from the well-being perspective, and it was

to deal with the stuff that I direct manage my constituency staff and the

ones in Stormont that I had direct responsible D4, Basil wasn't keen on

having any of this before the election but he was opened to a

discussion with them after the election.

Just to complete that circle, your contention in this interview is that

the re-designation at the meeting on Tuesday was an attempt to provoke

you to leave the party so that you would not continue in your role as

overseeing that external investigation, is that what you are

telling me? Absolutely. That was about muddying

the waters and saying we will distract. Because if I had resigned

from the party over that issue, the report comes back to me and another

person that we have too finalise it. The report comes to me, so if I

was not in position, therefore the process could be stopped and could

be easily stop. There is no way you are going to

leave NI21? Not a chance. The staff there and morale at an all-time low,

there is no way I am leaving at a point in time until these issues are

resolved. There are elements of NI21

suggesting you are in private discussions with the Ulster

Unionist, but ultimately you might be the European candidate next time

round, or you might take over from Jim Nicholson if he is successful

this time and does not serve a full term. Is this what this is about?

Are those approaches happening Rushton Mark I am flattered that

anyone would think I was going to do that. I can absolutely tell you the

last three questions about the leadership, about about some sort of

arrangement with the Ulster Unionist party or indeed the redesignation,

all of these stories have been put out there to muddy the waters. Basil

McCrea said that the reason for the redesignation debate was because

people were hearing that on the doorstep. Not one person mentioned

it to me. Bearing in mind I have always said you need to get away

from that kind of agenda and talk about normal politics. We had one

candidate in my area canvassing. The only person I heard that from what

Tina McKenzie and Basil McCrea. Can I ask you what the nature of your

relationship is with Basil McCrea. He was on television last night and

said he still regards you as a friend. He has tried to get in touch

with you and you have not returned his phone calls. He hopes you can

patch up your differences. Can you? On that, we can patch up the

differences once these allegations have been addressed. Those are the

key things and in addressing these allegations I sincerely hope that

Basil engages with the proper process and hopefully that will

produce a resolution and an outcome, but he has two engage in

that process so we know where we are with these allegations. If there are

issues that we as a party needs to address, let us go through that

process. Why have you decided to speak out publicly about a very

sensitive issue before the external body you brought in to investigate

has made its final report? Why not wait until that report has been

released? What you have done is extraordinary. I had no choice but

to say that this is what we as a party, as and individual, this is

what we have done. This is where we are at in this process and it is

ultimately about public confidence in me as an MLA and public

confidence in NI21. When this is finished, can Basil McCrea and John

McAllister remain in NI21? The most important thing is to work through

the process and get the report and see what lessons we need to learn.

Can you foresee the two of you working together as leader and

deputy leader of NI21 after what you have told me tonight? It is

unlikely. Finally, is those message to those people who went to the

polls earlier today and cast their ballots in favour of NI21 and he

will be watching this and thinking, what have I done, what is your

message to them? I am sorry. I am sorry to the council candidates and

all of those who worked hard to develop this, but the promise I make

to them is that we are going to sort these issues out. We are going to

resolve it and address them and we are going to get that to rebuilding

NI21. I am truly sorry to voters, to people I feel we have really let

down. We have missed an opportunity. Also, the candidates

who have been walking the streets for the last three weeks and two are

just so bitterly disappointed. John McCallister talking to me earlier

tonight. I den puts his allegations of inappropriate behaviour to Basil

McCrea. Sun I have heard the rumours. For the last 6-8 weeks

there have been suggestions made online. John said that there is

nothing concrete and he wanted to go ahead and have a look at how he

would deal with that. He talked about it and I said that was fine.

So if and when allegations come forward, if there is any name or

whatever, then I will address them as best I can. I'm confident I have

done nothing wrong. Do you deny ever engaging in

inappropriate behaviour Rushton Mark yes. You have nothing to be

pro-choice up about? No. -- to reproach yourself about. So there is

nothing that can be made public? I have no input into any report and I

have had no allegations put to me so I have no idea what has been said.

Or I can sell you is that I am sure I have done nothing wrong. If there

is any complaint, there are lots of besiegers to go through. If somebody

bring something to me then I will respond to it. Have you cooperated

with that investigation by the governing body? I was not told it

was going on. Have you tried to stop other people cooperating with the

investigation. I didn't. When John was putting out the e-mail to the

people he wanted to talk to, I was copied into the e-mail and everyone

said they were happy to do it. Do you support the fact it is

happening? John wanted to do it and he is entitled to do it. John says

you are seeking for him to walk away from the party because he started

the investigation into inappropriate behaviour on your part. How about

work? It is not possible. He said the raising of the redesignation

issue was an attempt on your part to force his hand and to dry him away

from the party. That would be so cack-handed. How would that work? I

just don't see how he can draw those conclusions. The issues about the

designation of the party was brought up in the speech I brought up to the

local government elections. You were at that. It is in the government

pack and the manifesto. It was a response we were getting on the

streets. People were saying it was not clear. It was absolutely

appropriate to do it and we made the call for all the right reasons and

it was the right thing to do. Two days before the poll? Fire macro it

was in response to what we were finding out from the canvas. Ash max

all I can say to you it was brought up in other areas. It was mentioned

when we launch the party. Although we work designating it Unionist,

because we wanted to be clear of the constitutional point, it was an

issue we had always spoke about. It does have the support of the

majority of the party and I believe the people in the electorate will

believe in that as well. Is this the end of the NI21 project? Well, I am

surprised about the timing of things. They have been plenty of

opportunities to say what has been said over the last number of weeks

and I did say at the start of this interview that we have had

significant pressure from outside forces which resulted in us going to

the police and that is because we were worried. If you don't mind me

saying, there does seem to be something there that has the

potential for a dirty tricks campaign. I don't know who or why or

where. It does seem to me that NI21 is threatening the status quo.

Whether or not NI21 does upset the political landscape, it remains to

be seen. The campaign is over and we are waiting for the verdicts. We

will find out the results over the next few days. Let us have a quick

look back at what was quite a dramatic campaign.

Sinn Fein were unable to get agreement for their party for the

package. They did not have to do that in the

middle of an election campaign. Remember, I contacted them two

months ago. With me are our political editor

Mark Devenport and our regular experts Deirdre Heenan and Rick

Wilford. Mark, let us talk about NI21 and the allegations on tonight

was my programme. What are your thoughts about where we are as far

as that party is concerned? This must be one of the most disastrous

political debuts we have ever had in Northern Ireland. It is a complete

mess. I don't know how the election will have fared for them. Honestly

it cannot have been helped by the headlines earlier on, but if anyone

has voted for them, they might be thinking, why did I do that? Tina

McKenzie, within the last hour has sent an e-mail saying she has

resigned from the party's is edited. She was the standard-bearer in this

party. She says she will continue to support NI21, but she is looking

forward to spending time with her family. She says I wish John and

basil sincere goodwill and hope they can work out their differences

though the sake of the party. The Treasurer of the party has stepped

down with immediate effect. Also an executive committee member has

notified party members of his resignation, although he remained

supportive of NI21. You have followed the fortunes of NI21 over

the last year. Can they survive this situation? It's clinging to the

wreckage at the moment. It is in survival mode. Two into one is not

going to go. This partnership is broken. The tarts now is for one or

other of them to rebuild the party from the wreckage, but it will take

considerable time. The confidence in its candidates and whatever

electorate it has got is badly damaged. It sounds as if it's the

old adage about the person being political. I do think this is a

relationship that can be fixed. I think they will have to start

afresh. On the eve of the first election they are contesting, you

could not have made up this car crash. It is a disaster. Both men

apologised to voters and candidates for the situation that has unfolded.

There will be people watching this programme he would have gone into

the polling stations and voted to NI21 and that new brand of politics

because they wanted to, as the party slogan had it, aspire to better.

Resume agreed people would have voted for them? I think people

thought they had something new to offer. They had done a good job of

engaging people, particularly young people. They had convinced them

about the need to use their vote. People who were feeling

disenfranchised were beginning to speak about politics. I'm sure they

are let down. Truth is stranger than fiction. Maybe it is a sign of their

political immaturity that this has happened in public. I just can't see

a wave act for them now because they have lost so much credibility.

Do you believe this lectureship is over as far as the two men are

concerned? You cannot have a spat in public, and we don't know what will

happen over the course of the next few days, but obviously there was

this reference to this organisation which is supposedly investigating.

They have told us the investigation services are confidential and

independent and they will not, -- they will not comment. Something is

going on, so no doubt something may then reach the public domain. The

ordinary thing is the speed which was a real French, not a political

convenience, it was a real friendship between the two men, they

spent a lot of time in each other's company, when one jumped the other

followed, and it is quite a personal tragedy for them, I would say, it

has broken down. So close, some people, Tom in cheek,

referred to them as Jasil. You can't have a party whose

leadership is divided in this way for top the image of a party is

critical. Leadership is an indispensable part of that. Coming

back to Deirdre's point about things being brought up in public, they

launched prematurely, the policy cupboard was largely bare. You have

seen this immaturity unfold. The population felt they were brave,

embarking on something new, trying to bring a freshness of politics. We

feel disillusioned by the whole thing stop there may be a future for

the two actors who did their party election broadcast.

That takes is neatly onto the broader picture and is briefly your

reflections on the campaign. Do we know festival about turnout, is that

likely to be a key issue? It is still pretty anecdotal. We

know the last European elections there was a turnout of 43%, in the

last council election which was a joint election it was more like 55%.

The anecdotal accounts tonight is that it will be probably somewhere

in between that, in some places it has been down near the lower figure,

some places it has been near the higher figure but they may even out

to around 50%. Possibly getting there, possibly a little bit under.

What will you be looking out for over the next few days? Local

election results Friday, Saturday and it isn't a. Discussions on

Sunday. On Monday we get a better plan -- -- better picture of the

European state. They have all got significant

features, the odds look, we have some back casting trying to

aggregate from census data in any pulse. They looks as if the

incumbent three will be returned, but that 30 could be interesting.

Between Tim Nicholson, and Alex Attwood. If Jim Nicholson loses it

the career is in jeopardy. A poor performance by the SDLP may be well

make that party think again about the leadership. I have taken the

view for some time that party needs an architect.

What about the Alliance party, we have mentioned, people are

interested in the strength of Sinn Fein and the do the weather on at

the Ulster Unionists staged some kind of recovery, what about

Alliance? Alliance will be commended for their party election broadcast,

it was different, it set a different tone, you had to go and it before

politics was even mentioned. I thought it was interesting. Overall

the campaign wasn't about Europe, and the powers of the new super

council were barely mentioned for stop it was very quickly about them

and us. Of course the arrest of Gerry Adams set the tone and contest

for what happened afterwards. It was very bitter, the main parties were

Ebony and has a -- antagonistic towards each other. That is the key

point in terms of how this election has been run. Largely it was

turgid, uninspiring, the policy was not debated at any level. Are you

expecting any surprises? We will probably have the same three coming

back, it will be interesting to see if alliances impacted in the

councils around the greater Belfast area. Interesting to watch Jim

Allister because things like the Gerry Adams breastplate was his

agenda. Busy programme, we will have

extensive coverage of the result of the coming over the weekend. On

radio, online and television, I will be here with us first special

programme tomorrow. Goodbye.