21/04/2016 The View

We've two stories tonight - first, the claim from one peer

of the realm that politicians here are discriminating

against women in Northern Ireland through our Victorian abortion laws.

And with two weeks to go to the election, I talk

to Martin McGuinness about Sinn Fein's battle

for nationalist votes, working with Arlene Foster

and marking the Queen's 90th birthday.

Tonight, Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness may be fighting to win a

seat in a new constituency, but will he be returned as a member of the

biggest party? We have 29 seats at the moment, and I hope we can do

better than that. Plus Lord Steel,

the man who introduced the 1967 Abortion Act,

issues a stark challenge I think women in Northern Ireland

are being discriminated against by their own politicians through their

failure to stand up for a sensible framework for abortion.

And with their thoughts on that and the rest of the week's politics,

in Commentators' Corner are Newton Emerson and Professor

This time in two weeks, the polls will have closed in the Assembly

election and there'll be nothing more the politicians can do

to influence the make-up of the new Stormont chamber.

Next week it'll be the turn of the DUP leader, Arlene Foster.

But tonight, Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness has an opportunity

to discuss his party's position on a range of issues that could well

affect how you mark your ballot paper.

When I spoke to Mr McGuinness yesterday, I began by asking him

about the two paramilitary-style attacks which have taken place

I wanted to know how, nine years after Sinn Fein voted

to support the PSNI, dissident groups still appear to be

able to operate in republican areas with impunity.

What happened in relation to the two shootings need to be condemns,

What happened in relation to the two condemnation alone is not enough.

People need to support the police and pass on information they have,

and obviously the people responsible for this are very small, with

minimal support within the community, but if they do have the

ability to wish to shoot someone, they can do that. I think the

problem we face is that people are reluctant to come forward to give

evidence in court face-to-face. Some people would say for obvious

reasons, but there are other ways and means that people can support

the police. If people have information about any of these

activities, they should be passing that information on to the police.

There is also a huge responsibility on people within the community to

make their outrage at these activities are very, very clear, and

I was very pleased to see that last night, a very powerful process

against the activities of these people. -- protest. But why would

those people listen to what you have to say and heed your calls for them

to stop when there's dissident republicans will argue presumably

they are merely using the tactics you and your supporters employed for

many years in the past? If you cast your mind back to the early 1980s, I

made a very significant speech during the Easter Sunday

commemorations where I came out very strongly, that is over 30 years ago,

against punishment beatings and shootings. Some people under

Republican is what unnerved by that because of their very poor

relationship between the communities at that time. But I was never of the

view that any of these activities were in any way contributing Dicky

been people safer within society. -- to keeping people safer. But what is

the difference between the killing of Michael McGovern now and that

killing of Andrew Kinney in similar circumstances by the IRA in Belfast

in July 1998? That is a long time after the early 1980s when you say

you are arguing for the IRA to stop such activities. And I didn't make

the case that Maya cetaceans at that time that this was a wrong strategy

for the RA to be involved in, that that was acceptable for everybody.

Obviously it wasn't, because we had further incidents. All of these

things are wrong, but let's deal with where we are at the moment,

which is completely different from where we were in the past. It is

completely different because we have a peace agreement which is

overwhelmingly supported by the people of Ireland, including the

peoples of the North, and we have a situation where there is a small nub

of organisations with minimal support within the community who

take it upon themselves to use violence, and who are they using it

against? Irish people. But many years after the signing of the Good

Friday Agreement, when children born in 1998 and have an opportunity to

vote in this election for the first time on me the fifth, the violins,

admittedly on a reduced scale, continues. -- the violence. That is

why there is a huge responsibility for all of those in all the parties

to stand together in support of the police and the two Governments to

make it clear that these are futile acts which will achieve nothing. So

I think at some stage there are bound to be people within these

organisations asking questions of themselves as to whether or not they

are achieving the objectives that they have set themselves. Quite

clearly they are not, because their activities seem to be confined to

shooting people in their own communities. They are effectively at

war with those in their own community, and they are clearly

trying to disrupt the political situation by attacking prison

officers, and they have killed a prison officer just recently, and

they have tried to kill members of the PSNI. All of this is totally and

absolutely wrong and futile, and I think more so than any other

politician in the north of Ireland, I have stood fearlessly against

these activities. But you can't stop it, that is the point. Despite your

best efforts and the best efforts of the people closest you, you cannot

turn the tap off. We have to continue to stand together against

the act of it is of these people and show that politics is working in the

interests of everybody, and encouraging people in society to

make their voice heard. DUP leader Arlene Foster is urging people to

back her party to ensure that you don't become First Minister after

the election on May the 5th. Why do you feel about that? I see that very

much as the rivalry, it is about the battle between the DUP at the altar

Unionist party, and the DUP have decided as a tactic that that is one

way of frightening the horses. It doesn't really sing at a partnership

approach as far as the DUP and Sinn Fein is concerned. More importantly

is the agreement that we agreed last November, only six months ago, and

it has been a good six months. She is still painting you as the

bogeyman. She says that the key issue for her is what Northern

Ireland doesn't need as far as she is concerned is you as First

Minister, so that doesn't really sad like she is completely wedded to the

idea of working with you in partnership. I would judge it more

on the basis of how I have worked with Arlene over the course of the

last six months, since our agreements. So wanted a surprise to

you that she adopted this tactic? It wasn't. Clearly the Democratic

Unionist Party fear the prospect that the Ulster Unionist is will

make gains, and I suppose this is one aspect of the strategy that they

have to employ. So she is playing politics? You are writing your own

headline. You are saying on the one hand you are working in partnership

and on the other she is painting you as a figure who was not fit to be

First Minister, how you can square that circle? I don't think she is

painting me as someone who was not fit to be First Minister. I am

effectively joint First Minister alongside her. But is not how she

sees it. She is working with me. We have been working I think positively

and constructively together over the course of the last... She still

doesn't want you to be First Minister. Of course not. But I'm not

exercised about that, I am not as exercised as you are. I am just

curious. That is perfectly understandable that you are curious,

and that you are seeking a headline, but I have made clear my position,

if I have entered a situation where my party was the largest party in

the aftermath of the election, I have made it clear consistently that

I would offer to the DUP that would change the title to joint First

Minister. And she rejected that, she said it wasn't in your remit to do

that. If we make an agreement between the two of us ask about

legislation to be changed at Westminster, it will be like that.

She says that is Westminster's call. If she and I agreed to change the

titles, we would change it almost immediately. Are you telling me you

expect to win 39 seats? I expect to win as many seats as I possibly can.

We have 29 at the moment, and we hope to do better. If you don't do

better than that, if you come back with 29 or fewer, that will not be

success? Let's also be very sensible about what is likely to emerge. The

DUP are putting up 44 candidates, and we are putting up 39. The Ulster

Unionist are putting up less than 35, the SDLP less than 25. So it is

not being arrogant to say on the other side of the election the two

largest parties will be the democratic unions and Sinn Fein, so

we have a duty and responsibility to work that relationship in a way that

delivers far our people. What do we need to deliver? The economy, jobs,

health, education, anti-sectarianism and anti-homophobia and antiracism.

The institutions we are part of what first established in 1999. We had a

situation where the whole purpose of those institutions was for political

parties to work together positively and constructively. What have we

seen during the lifetime of two assembly terms? We have seen the

SDLP and the Ulster Unionist take up positions within the administration

and yet have the luxury of criticising what happens on the

outside, and I remember whenever I was education Minister, Seamus

Mallon was the Deputy First Minister, and he said to us that

whenever the executive takes a decision, even if you'd like their

decision, you have a duty a responsibility to support it, and I

agreed with that, and there were decisions that were difficult for

us, but I stood by the unity of the second death. We now have a

situation where the leader of the SDLP and the Ulster Unionist is, and

their leader at that time was David Trimble, are not prepared to support

decisions taken by the executive. The STL P haven't supported one

budget over the course of the last nine years. Your decision to return

to your home constituency to take on Colony stood in his own backyard is

a sign that you have been spooked by the SDLP, it is said. Have you? We

are the gradient of health, 18 councillors, the overwhelming

majority, three great MLAs, and NMP. I have come back to foil because I

believe that I need to prioritise an attack on the disadvantage that

exist in the city. And the levels of deprivation that exist in the city,

the lack of jobs. The big focus for me in the context of coming back is

the job situation, the unemployment situation, and my determination to

change that. And what if your re-entry into the race in Foyle

means that you lose one of your MLAs. I am hoping to join them, we

will have three. But not if you lose one of them, that would look like a

vanity project. We want three seats because we think that will deliver.

And if you are I are having a conversation after the election, if

you come back to Stormont with two Rather than three constituents, that

will be a loss? Let's have that conversation after the election. Are

you not concerned? No, I am fighting this election so that we will all

three being elected by the people of Foyle, because I believe that the

three of us working together, and me in the position of Deputy First

Minister, we can deliver and bear down on what we believe are

unacceptable unemployment figures in the constituency.

Are you convinced a reduction in corporation tax is about thing for

the economy? Yes. Even if the risks of two ?300 million of the block

grant to help the business rather than the people you say you

represent, some of the neediest? It has to be on the basis of

affordability, that is written into the agreement. I think it will be

affordable. I'll working on that basis and I believe that the ability

to create something in the region of 37,000 new jobs, that is something

not to be ignored. Should a woman be criminalised here for buying tablets

to procure abortion? No, she should not buy those tablets on the

internet, because that is a risk to her health. And she is breaking the

law. And I understand that but in this regard, the law is a very bulky

instrument and this is not the way to deal with it, it is not

compassionate and we need to recognise that this issue is

something that is to be handled with considerable maturity. And I think

there is a huge responsibility upon all of us to look at the

circumstances and sometimes they jump up to bite all sorts of

administrations, every look at the situation in Galway when they girl

roster life. I don't want that to happen to anyone. I believe that the

law in criminalising a woman is totally wrong. But your party does

not support the extension of the Abortion Act from the rest of the

UK. If there are not prosecutions in such circumstances, is that turning

a blind eye to abortion on demand? I am opposed to abortion on demand. I

think ourselves in the political process in conjunction with the

legal authorities and police need to get around this challenge, it

represents a big challenge and alas and I want is a situation where

abortion on demand is available as a result of people accessing tablets

on the internet. That is very bad for the health of the people so a

mechanism needs to be fired to stop that. Are you planning to stand

again for the Irish Presidency? Michael D Higgins will only serve

one term. Will you have another tilt at the Aras? I have ruled that out.

The Queen celebrates 90th birthday this week and you have a severable

-- several notable meetings with her. Have a centre I haven't! But I

centre my best wishes and I wish a happy birthday. I believe she has

made a unique contribution to reconciliation, a contribution that

others would do well to follow. And I do think that the engagements that

I have had with her, I have had a number of those, I am struck by her

passion for the peace process, the comments she has made in the past in

relation to wishing things could be done differently. And sympathy to

all of those who suffered as a result of the conflict, there was no

hierarchy of victims for her and I was very impressed. Warm greetings?

Absolutely. Martin McGuinness

talking to me yesterday. Is Northern Ireland's abortion law

antiquated and out of step The former Liberal leader

David Steel, who was responsible for introducing the 1967

Abortion Act in England and Wales, In fact, Lord Steel has told

The View it's ridiculous that women are being discriminated

against by legislation introduced So is the 1861 legislation

hopelessly outdated, Our health correspondent,

Marie-Louise Connolly, It was here in London back in 1861

when Queen Vic Charlie was on the throne and Parliament passed the

offences against the Person act. Section 58 made abortion criminal

offence. The dollar continues to have massive ramifications,

especially for women in Northern Ireland. So, over 150 years later,

is a time for it to be changed? That is a question that divides families,

lawyers and politicians. They have to face up to the fact that the law

in Northern Ireland is simply ridiculous, 1861. It is time they

came up as far as 19 six to seven, if not 2016. The Abortion Act is not

working, to translate that into Northern Ireland law, that would not

be wise. And it can be traced to hear, the legislation. Captain the

Houses of Parliament, where all of the original acts are very carefully

stored. And this is the original 1861 legislation. Section 50 eight.

It deals specifically with abortion. It says that any woman found guilty

of procuring her own abortion shall be guilty of felony and shall be

liable at the discretion of the court to be kept in penal servitude

for life. While that's not a squirrel away in the archives in

Westminster, the impact on women in Northern Ireland is felt every day.

That is because the 1967 act was not extended to hear and termination is

only permitted the woman's life is at risk or if continuing the

pregnancy puts her long-term health at risk. That 1861 law was played

out in the Crown Court in Belfast 21-year-old mother received a

suspended jail sentence for taking abortion pills bought online. That

sentence triggered protests across the UK about the 1861 legislation

not reflecting the needs of a modern society. In fact, Northern Ireland's

law is attracting attention across the UK, some extremely critical. The

current legislation in Northern Ireland is failing woman. The

legislation in force is Draconian, an archaic statute passed in the

reign of Queen Vic Tory and contains the most onerous penalty for

abortion in Europe. A charity shop in South are fast. Frontiers believe

there is a need to redefine the boundaries of Northern Ireland's

abortion law. I don't think when any law assembler mounted matters, it is

what it says and the 1861 law protects a life of the unborn child

and that is crucial. The matter when it was implemented. While people

like Marian believe that the 1861 Abortion Act should be left alone,

50 years ago, any rest of Britain, there was a radical overhaul. The

Victorian legislation was liberalised to become the 1967

Abortion Act, which made abortion legal up to 28 weeks, reduced to 24

in 1990. The campaign was led by this man. I find it extraordinary

that Northern Ireland has not even in any small way attempted to catch

up with where we were in 1967, 50 years later. It is incredible, and

one of the things that motivated me before I actually decided to do this

was a book by a lady called Alice Jenkins and that was about how

people in Britain, if they were clever enough and had enough money,

could get an abortion legally but for most people, they had to go to

backstreet abortions, women died and so on. This is what we had and it is

what you have in Northern Ireland. Once taboo, the subject is

attracting much debate. At this lecture in Belfast, speaking

publicly for the first time, this doctor told the BBC that uncertainty

around the law created a climate of fear. We have cases where the family

wanted a termination and would come back to Northern Ireland and will

deliver and were reported to the coroner because this was a legal

procedure and that was difficult because nobody knew what was going

on and through speaking to some colleagues, some were told I cried

that you could not provide any information to families seeking a

termination, even giving them information about where to go was

called aiding and abetting. Is there any mood for change? Last year the

High Court said that the outright ban on abortion breaches human

rights year. For some, that is cause for reform. What distinguishes

Northern Ireland is the law is so severe and out of kilter with human

rights laws and legislation across Western Europe. But the case for

change is absolutely overwhelming. Others disagree and argue that there

is no need for the Assembly to get its legal house in order. There is

no human rights to an abortion. That is the starting point and Mr Justice

Warner said that, no human rights, it is for the European Court in

Strasbourg, they said it is for countries to legislate and provide

for abortion, some have and some have not and I believe it is wrong.

The last word, for the moment, goes to Lord Steel. Women in Northern

Ireland are being discriminated against by their own politicians,

who have failed to stand up for any sensible framework of law on

abortion, which is available throughout most of Europe, not just

the UK, and if anything it is in advance of the UK law. Lord Steel.

This has become an election issue and some politicians are not

comfortable talking about this in public. It is a very sensitive

issue? It is very sensitive and emotive and this is an issue that I

think many of our politicians are very nervous talking about, whether

on a live debate such as this programme or in political hustings

or even on the doorsteps when canvassing for the votes. In fact,

that is unusual when you consider the range of topics they have had to

debate over the years, police, parading, flags, the issue, issues

like abortion and same-sex marriage causes more discomfort and sleepless

nights and there are those who would say that abortion is not an election

issue and a senior party advisers said earlier that it is the media

that is stoking this into a frenzy and they do not believe this is an

issue on the doorsteps. Is the media making the running on this? I would

argue not, of course. But when you consider what has happened here in

the past six months alone, in November the ground-breaking

judgment that's it the almost outright ban on abortion was a

breach of human rights and in February, the Assembly voting

against legislating for cases of fatal foetal abnormality and the

publication of the abortion guidelines and the working group and

the significant case of the 21-year-old mother who received a

suspended jail sentence and we now have contact from Lord David Steel

and other significant people from outside Northern Ireland such as the

Yvette Cooper, all twitching about Northern Ireland. I rest my case,

there has been enough evidence of events happening rather than the

media. -- tweeting. This is a challenge for politicians but also a

challenge for the medical profession. Is the debate changing

for them? It is slightly and the publication of the guidelines was a

major step in that it has diffused some of the tension and brought some

clarity and peace of mind for them but the major sticking point for

some of the medics will continue to be the added role of the

psychiatrist in deciding whether or not a woman should have an abortion

in Northern Ireland and while that remains that will be a major

stumbling block. Of course, there are many people in Northern Ireland

who would argue that we are leading the way, that the 1861 legislation

should remain and they are steadfast in their thoughts that it should

remain. And they are very protective of that and they would argue that

Northern Ireland is leading the way. Lord Steel ended by saying it is

over to the politicians to do with this issue. When the election is

over, will be? That is the big question! He said it is really up to

the devolved assemblies as it is in Scotland and I think big events

happen here and we take tiny steps and change does not come quickly

here and we talk about tiny steps but when you think that most

recently, we have taken a giant leap regarding at one end talking about

fatal foetal abnormality and abortion in cases of rape and incest

and talking about abortion available on demand around the issue of

abortion pills so this is a growing issue and one that both the public

and politicians are going to have to confront.

Lets see what tonight's commentators think. Newton Emerson and Cathy

Gormley-Heenan are with me. Lord steel's intervention in the report,

it is really interesting. It is, because it is effectively a local

issue for us but is back on the national agenda, a couple of days

ago we had to shadow ministers saying, while devolution means that

health is devolved to Northern Ireland, human rights is not, that

is a matter for Westminster, so they have asked Westminster to look at

the issue on the back of that. And actually the next mandate in

Scotland because of the Scotland act was passed a couple of weeks ago,

the devolved institutions their wealth for the first time have the

responsibility for abortion and the laws on abortion in Scotland, so we

will see some changes in conversations that will take this

from being a local issue to one that is probably going to feature on the

national stage more. Newton, this is a sensitive issue for many of our

politicians. I don't see any chance of them reforming it through the

law, I don't see any chance of Stormont passing a law liberalising

abortion. I think there will be things that make the parties less

likely, and I don't think Westminster will impose it, because

it will split the Conservative Party. So there is not going to be a

legal reform. What is good happen with this law is it will simply fall

into a abeyance, most are never repealed. It was starting to happen

in the 1990s before this rearguard action came in through health

officials and guidelines. The Internet and tablets are creating a

series of events that the legal system cannot control, and

eventually they will lose control of the situation, professionals will

lose the appetite and enforce the law and it will simply guide to

function. Except the politicians at this time will not want to talk

about the abortion debate any more than they have to, and will stick

rigidly to party lines, but before the action takes place, the courts

are due to hear another case against a mother who procured a medical

abortion through pills for her daughter, and that is due to come

before the courts before our election takes place, so politicians

will be asking a lot more questions about this issue before the 5th of

May. Let's move on to the other big story that we have been covering

tonight, Martin McGuinness's comments advance of the election.

What you make of the battle between Sinn Fein and the SDLP for

nationalist votes? I think there is very little chance of the SDLP

making the gains it seems to think it will. I think its performance has

been all over the place, and I don't think that they have managed to pull

together the liberal and conservative wings of the party into

any coherent message. But there is a possibility that he could pull

something out of that after the election, going to opposition. Is

the battle between Sinn Fein and the DUP over the First Minister's

position a sham fight? I think Martin McGuinness was right, this

was more about the unionism than Martin McGuinness and Sinn Fein, and

a number of things would have to happen for Martin McGuinness to

become First Minister, Sinn Fein would have to annihilate the DUP,

and the UUP would have to make gains on the DUP, fits to become an actual

possibility. We are always interested in the economics, and we

heard from Martin McGuinness, continued support for a reduction in

corporation tax which he believes is affordable, but that might not play

well, some people say within some sectors of the Sinn Fein vote,

because it is taking public money, theoretically, and giving it a big

is nice, and that is moving it away from Sinn Fein voters, some of the

most needy in society. Is that a fairer presentation of that debate?

There is some evidence that Sinn Fein are saying different things for

different audiences, but there is a very good argument wishing fain to

sit the weight this one out, corporation tax is being reduced to

wear our differentiation won't make much difference, and the Americans

are talking about changing the tax regimes that offshore taxes won't

work, so in three of four years when this is predicted to come into

effect, the whole situation would have changed. Very interesting to

hear ruling out another approach at the presidency. Martin McGuinness

has said he will not retire when he reaches retirement age just because

that is expected, but to rule himself out of a big campaign like

that is quite telling. Gerry Adams's turn next time you heard that here

first! OK, let's just pause for a moment

to reflect on what young people might be making

of this election campaign. As we know, this is the first time

people born after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998

are old enough to vote. And last night, some of them

had their say on BBC One. Do they think it is acceptable that

a young person like me, excited to be voting for the first time, can't

find a party that is worth voting for?

APPLAUSE It is time for them to grow up and

relies that we need an opposition in order to have effective government

in this country. It should be a woman's choice what she does with

her body. If a woman was raped, why should a child be killed because the

woman can't deal with the pressure? By 2020, one quarter of Northern

Irish children will live in poverty, and our executive think it is a good

time to give a cut in corporation tax to those at the top end of the

scale, the richest. Why do they think it is appropriate? I know they

say it will bring in jobs, but it is printing in jobs -- bringing in jobs

and contracts but it is unfair if the cut goes to the rich and not

those at the bottom of society. Marriage is different to other

relationships, it is about more than just love, it is a relationship for

the procreation of children, and that can't be found in any other

relationship. Marriage will always remain different regardless of what

policies are different and will always continue to be different

because of the special relationship and the compatibility between male

and female. Why'd you think it is OK to make comments that alienate so

many voters against same-sex marriage?

APPLAUSE Some feisty exchanges

there on BBC One last night. What do you make of young people's

political engagement generally? As Ed Miliband and John Kerry, have

they taught us nothing? Young people don't make a difference to

elections, they pick up the views of their parents and then don't vote

anyway, they don't make a difference until they are well into their 20s.

What we saw last night was a very engaged and feisty electric

galvanising that and turning it into voters is or is difficult for

politicians, and that is because young people tend to have less of a

stake in society and less interested lot the policies that politicians

put forward. They don't own houses, have housing problems, have children

at school, and that is happening at an older age of our young people, so

their investment in society is very different. That is just what I have

said, but you have explained it better! That is 100 engaged

18-year-olds out of many thousands, but they did want to talk about a

full range of issues, not just student fees but abortion, same-sex

marriage, the economy. But what evidence is those issues cause

people to switch over tribal lines in Northern Ireland? There is some

evidence it made a difference in the margins in Fermanagh and South

Turan, but the prospect of lump large numbers of people crossing

party lines are very remote. But maybe the change if it comes will be

glacier. It won't suddenly change now just because 18-year-olds who

were born after the Good Friday agreement can vote, any more than it

was going to change 12 months ago, but maybe change will come in small

steps. We can't underestimate the importance of political

socialisation, and a lot of our young people's views are formed in

family, school, through their church and so on, but changed definitely is

coming with a more engaged young electorate. We will leave it there.

That's about it from The View for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35am here on BBC One,

when I'll be talking to the Ulster Unionist leader,

And we're signing off tonight with the craze

of the moment - emojis - and some of Northern Ireland's

best-known politicians now have their own, courtesy

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