28/04/2016 The View

It's been dubbed the "Arlene campaign" -

with just a week to polling day, we'll hear from Arlene Foster

Plus the cost of Stormont golden handshakes.

The race to Stormont is in its final stretch.

This time next week, it'll be all over bar the counting.

For the DUP, it's been an election campaign all about Arlene.

She tells me she is determined to remain as First Minister. The first

target is to come back as the largest party because it is

important because there is a Unionist majority that we have a

Unionist first and a stir. Cashing in on clocking out, are retiring

MLAs are to get a one-off payment between them worth almost half a

one-off payment between them worth almost half ?1 million. You are

going in to do your job and to help people, if people begrudge me at, I

do not think anyone in my constituency will do that. With

their thoughts on that -- And with their thoughts on that

and the rest of the week's politics in commentators' corner are Newton

Emerson and Patricia MacBride. This time next week,

the polls will have closed and the 276 Assembly candidates

will have a nervous wait to find out if their campaigning

hit the mark with the voters. as far as the party leaders

are concerned, of course - and perhaps none more

so than for the DUP leader, Arlene Foster, who's determined

to hold on to the number one slot When I spoke to Arlene Foster

earlier this evening, I began by asking her

if she's confident she can improve on the DUP's strong

performance in 2011. we understand that over this last

period of time we have had two elections, and of the last three,

were Sinn Fein were the larger party, we know it will be tough, but

I am putting a lot of effort in. I am trying to lead from the front,

going across the country, I have been to every constituency, I finish

in castles are at it tomorrow. I am putting my best foot forward. Do you

accept that fewer than 38 seats will look like failure on your part? Not

at all. Over the past three elections, two of those Sinn Fein

were the larger party, it is a battle for the hearts and minds of

the people. I am going out after every vote and I look to return all

of my candidates, there are 44 standing, they are excellent and I

will be working hard to get the maximum number returned. Is that the

target? The first target is to come back as the largest party because I

think it is important that because there is a Unionist majority that

we have a Unionist First Minister. I think it would be a terrible

situation if we had a Sinn Fein First Minister. That would not

represent the population as a whole. In January, just after you took over

leadership, you said that I might come back with 40 seats and we

discussed if that was the target, it was wasn't it? I am focused on the

fact that we do not take the electorate for granted, there has

not been a vote cast yet, we are still in the middle of the campaign

and we need to make sure we get the maximum number returned. If you come

back with fewer than 38, your critics will say it has been a

failure. Of course they will, I am sure they are already getting their

line ready. For me it is important that I gave leadership across the

country, I am doing that and trying to get the maximum number of party

members returned. Why do you have to be First Minister? No one goes into

an election looking to come second. We are looking to win the election

and that is why it is important. If you ask that question of Nicola

Sturgeon, she would be amused by it. It is absurd to say it does not

matter who is First Minister. It is important for the people of Northern

Ireland that they have a Unionist First Minister and I am asking them

to support us. It is different, it is not the same as Scotland because

we have a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister who are equal

in the role, it is a joint office. When I spoke to Martin McGuiness, he

said he was not that bothered about it. He would like to be the biggest

party and the first thing he would do is offer you the possibility to

have a joint First Minister 's title. He says your playlist for a

different reason. It is not. If you speak to people on the street, they

are saying that it is important that they have a First Minister that

speaks for them. It is symbolically important and it is important

because whoever is First Minister has the largest number of seats and

will have a larger number of people around the Executive table. It is

important that we have a Unionist majority on the Executive because

that represents the views of the people of Northern Ireland, it is

not just a symbolic issue but I do not underplay the issue of

symbolism, it is very important in Northern Ireland. The sky would not

fall down if Martin McGuiness was First Minister. This is about

Unionist politics, you telling Unionist to make sure that they vote

for your candidates. RUC is he saying that Martin McGuiness has a

similar vision to me? He has a completely different vision. I have

a vision of us playing a full part in the UK, building on a strong

base, to build... He could not do anything without your say-so anyway.

I want a strong open regional economy, that is important. His

vision and we heard the debate at the weekend is to take us into a

united Ireland. That is his vision and that is a different vision to

the majority of people in Robben Island. What is the nature of your

relationship with Martin McGuiness, I asked you about this and you said

it was workmanlike and you would work in partnership for the good of

Northern Ireland but you would not be drawn on whether it was friendly

or a warm, you danced around those adjectives. It is what it is, he is

elected by a number of people in Northern Ireland, I am elected and I

was elected as the leader of the party which had the largest number

of votes and under the structures of the Belfast agreement that means in

a mandatory Coalition that we have to work together. It is workmanlike.

People know with my background that it is difficult to work with Martin

McGuiness, it is a challenge, but I do it because I believe that we have

to work for the good of the people of Northern Ireland. Talk about the

cult of personality, there are darlings candidates, Arlene 's plan,

there is a lot riding on the voters buying into you. I am the leader of

the party and I have been the leader since last December, that was

something I was privileged and humbled to be asked to -- to do.

Since then I have been going out and everyone has a different style and

my style is to lead from the front and to talk to people, listen to

what they have to say, right away when I became First Minister, I went

and listen to what people had to say and most of that is in my 5-point

plan, listening to them about education, health, what they want to

see from the economy, that is all in the 5-point plan and that is why it

is about my leadership because this is a choice of who will be First

Minister, will it be me or Martin McGuiness? That is why it is about

that. How big a threat is the resurgent UUP under the leadership

of Mike Nesbitt poses to the DUP? He does not like the term liberal. He

says he is progressive. If you look at the results in the Alaska

elections you will see that he has not had a resurgence, they won

Fermanagh and South Tyrone because we took the decision we wanted to

see a Unionist there. They toppled the DUP in Southampton. Despite the

fact that Maurice Morrow and I are MLAs and they only have one MLA

there, we stepped aside, we wanted to see a Unionist comeback. The

other seed was head to head and the UUP candidate won. If you look at

Strangford, the percentage fell back to 14%, in Lagan Valley, the

percentage fell, so this whole talk... Overall it was up. That was

because they won a seat. You need to look at the different states. --

seats. I think there has been a lot of spin around this. What we will

see is people making the choice at the election because they know there

is only one Unionist leader who can be the First Minister and that is me

because there is no way that the Ulster Unionist Party will come back

from the level they were at at the last election to take a larger

number of seats and there is only one choice and it is made because if

you do not vote for the DUP candidate, you will have Sinn Fein

First Minister. Once DUP voters have a cast their ballots in favour of

the DUP candidate, should they then transfer preferences to UUP

candidates. Onto other Unionists. Absolutely. The TUV as well? Yes.

They are even more critical of you. It isn't that the union, not me. And

make sure that the pro-union vote stands up and that is always what is

important. I look -- I am the leader of the DUP and I want to make sure

we stay within the union. Being a Unionist is that my corner. I am in

partnership with Sinn Fein because people vote for them and under the

mandatory Coalition, we want to move to a voluntary Coalition and we will

continue to try and bring that about. We have been able to deliver

some reform but we will look to continue to press for the reform as

we have been doing since the Belfast agreement was signed. How much more

difficult would it be for the DUP to be in a 2-party Coalition, just the

two of you running the Executive with the other parties in

opposition? That is a decision for those parties, they have not been

clear as to whether... Would that be a nightmare? You would not have the

cover of the UUP. RUC is saying we have had cover? They have voted

against us, at every chance, they have not voted for the budgets, on

occasions they have been critical of the Executive... There is a huge

contradiction. They have now got an opportunity to take up an opposition

role. The contradiction surely at the heart of the conversation is

that on one hand you would be happy with being in partnership with Sinn

Fein, with the others in opposition, even though you desperately do not

want people to allow Martin McGuiness to become First Minister,

you do not want people to vote for the new -- the UUP but you want them

to transfer votes, you're trying to have it every way. Know I am not. On

the First Minister issue, it is important to that is because they

are the leading politician in Northern Ireland, they get the first

pick in terms of the Executive ministries which is very important

in terms of what happens and the number of ministries we hold and if

the Ulster Unionist Party decide to go into opposition, that is a matter

for them, they have not made it clear, they have said that they are

waiting for a programme for government, it is a matter for. You

would end up in that scenario working alongside Sinn Fein, being

opposed by your fellow unionists. That is a matter for them. I want to

be in government. I am not going to be in opposition, if I get the

support from the people on the ground, I will be in government and

hopefully be the First Minister and I will lead from the front. You're

promising an extra billion pounds for health and you want to keep

university fees down, invest in integrated education and social

housing, where does the money come from? In terms of education, we were

able to negotiate an extra ?500 million for integrated and shared

education on top of our barn at settlement, that money has been

secured and we have started to roll that money out. In terms of the ?1

billion for health, we have set that out as our number one priority in

terms of investment, nearly half of our budget already goes into the

health department but we know and have seen that we need more

investment and reform in the health Department. We are talking about ?1

billion over the next period of time and that is going to be delivered by

prioritisation. It is striking when you look at the manifestos, how

close some of yours are to Sinn Fein 's. I view talked about some of

those policies in advance? I was hoping that we would be able to

persuade the public of how well our manifesto is put together and the

fact that we have these targets but I did not think I would be able to

persuade other parties so quickly. We set out our manifesto commitments

for weeks ago, very early, people like yourselves were saying why are

you setting it out so early, why are you doing it so early, it was

because I wanted it to be clear where our commitments lay and now we

see other parties adopting our manifesto.

One of the points of my manifesto has been to create that civic pride

in Northern Ireland, that I think has been lacking over the years for

understandable reasons. We have come through a terrible time in our

history but I want to see more pride in the fact that people are from

Northern Ireland and I have been saying to young people that I really

want them to be proud of they come from and to be proud of the fact

that they are from Northern Ireland. In terms of unionism, there has not

been as much discussion around the constitutional issue in this

election and I think it is because people were content with the

constitutional settlement, they see it has been that way for some period

of time. How do you describe yourself? A combination of British,

Irish and Northern Irish. I see myself as British first of all,

probably, as you know, I am a royalist, and monarchist, and I

believe in the United Kingdom fundamentally. I am from Northern

Ireland, therefore I am Northern Irish and of course, when the

Ireland rugby team is playing, I am Irish.

Tonight The View can reveal that fifteen former MLAs who retired

from the Assembly last month are in line for a special one-off

payment - between them worth almost half a million pounds.

The public purse will also foot the bill for pay-outs to those

outgoing MLAs who don't get re-elected next Thursday.

Our investigations reporter, Kevin Magee, has been

With the election campaign in full swing, Stormont is taking a break,

awaiting an influx of new MLAs who will soon be running this place.

Some familiar faces will be disappearing, 16 MLAs are retiring

and of course there is the chance some others will not be re-elected.

For those clearing out their lockers in Stormont, they will not be

leaving empty-handed, on top of their pensions, every MLAs who is

either retiring or fails to get re-elected is entitled to a

financial windfall. It is called a resettlement allowance. You do not

have to apply for it, you're entitled to it to magically and how

much you get depends on how long you have been an MLA and how old you are

when you leave the job. 15 of the 16 retiring MLAs will be entitled to be

allowance, Gregory Campbell does not qualify because he is on and MPs

salary. The lump sum amount that they will get will vary from 16 to

almost 40,000 plus. The first ?30,000 is tax-free, for the

retiring MLAs, the cost to the public purse of paying this

allowance is almost half ?1 million. ?440,000, to be exact. The rules and

the size of the allowance are changing, but not in time to effect

this current crop of MLAs. Instead, they will benefit from the higher

rates paid under the old system. The old system was one that we inherited

from the MLAs themselves and which was based on a fairly generous

interpretation of the West Minister system and designed to attract and

retain people into politics in a very difficult time and that that

situation longer pertains, it is time to look at what we should have

for the foreseeable future in comparison with other legislators.

Unlike other issues, payments to politicians is not something the

parties are queueing up to talk about at election time. The DUP and

Sinn Fein, Ulster Unionist, SDLP, a Lions, greens and TV declined to be

interviewed but David McNamee agreed, as he is retiring from the

Assembly and not seeking re-election, he is in line for one

of the payments of just over ?32,000. If politicians go into

elected politics for money, those are the wrong reasons, glory, that

is the wrong reason, you come in to help people. People begrudge me at,

I do not think anyone in my constituency will begrudge me this.

Do you think that that allowances to generous? It is. It is far too

generous and I think there is no point in it. You earn your salary

but it is fair, and it is a rule and they seemed to be happy with it. If

we do not build on what we have got, the small boats, along with the

large vote. The former Deputy Leader of the Alliance Party also received

the allowance when he bowed out of politics in 2007. It helped me quite

a lot because I did receive a generous resettlement allowance,

because I benefited under the old system. He says the resettlement

grants were designed to give politicians financial security in

the uncertain world of politics, in the event that representatives

suddenly find themselves seated or without a job. It gives you that

sense of financial security, it is designed to help people who were

less fortunate than me, because I was able to go back to my job and

resume my fil obligation. There are others who had no job and will be

faced with immediate problems, with regards to their mortgages and

putting food on the table, that was the purpose for which this system

was devised and it is of great benefit to those who find themselves

in that situation. A new, lower rate is being

introduced for the next Assembly. It is similar to what happens in

Scotland, Wales and Westminster. And I understand it also happens in the

Republic. We have had a look at all of those and we think we have got it

just about right. We have actually cut it in half for the new Assembly.

So instead of a maximum of ?48,000 which could be owned, that will now

be ?24,500 maximum in the new determination. The electorate will

vote on the 5th of May. As well as returning MLAs, those who are not

re-elected will also get resettlement allowance at a higher

rate. The bill to the public purse of paying the grants to the outgoing

Stormont class of 2016 could be in the region of three quarters of ?1

million. Earlier this week the jury

at the Hillsborough inquests found that 96 football fans

were unlawfully killed, Queen's University Professor Phil

Scraton wrote his first report on the tragedy in 1990 and has been

working alongside the bereaved You have just come back from

Liverpool a few hours ago. You were in the courtroom when the verdict of

unlawful killing was delivered by the jury. What was your reaction

when you heard that? To paint the picture, you had to see a converted

office block as the coroners court. Over 100 lawyers in the court, the

jury, the coroner, 300 people in the court room, an annex with another

400 people, an annex in Liverpool with another 400 people. And the

world's media. And an inquest jury delivers a verdict not like any

other court. It has a short form verdict, in this case the only one

which was offered was unlawfully killed, which is actually gross

negligence, manslaughter. It also has the opportunity these days to

add a narrative verdict, and there were 14 points on the narrative

verdict. So it was a slow process. He took them through, the coroner,

took them through, one by one, each of the points, starting with police

club ability. 15 separate criticisms came from the jury. Then he moved on

to ground safety. Then he moved on to the Ambulance Service. Then he

went on to the safety engineers. He moved through each of the

responsible parties - four, five, six criticisms directed at each. And

then he got to the inquest verdict, and on a majority, beyond reasonable

doubt, they found gross negligence manslaughter. It was hard to say

what it was like. I have worked with the families for 27 years. And I was

working as legal adviser, beyond secondment from my job, as legal

adviser to the family's teams. I had written over 30 extensive briefings.

-- families' teams. The reaction in the court was first ball stunned,

and then this incredible outpouring of grief, mixed elation. And when he

got to gross negligence manslaughter, and the verdict was

yes, I don't think people could believe it after all this time. You

hadn't expected it? No. Because it is such a high bar, such a high

test, and it has to be beyond reasonable doubt. The rest of the

verdict is, it is on the balance of probabilities. But then he got to

the key issue, because now we had unlawful killing, but one of the

questions was, did the fan is' behaviour contributed? You have to

remember that we had more than 800 witnesses at this inquest. -- the

fans' behaviour. Many of the police officers came and ran the same lies

which their chief constables have apologised for after we produced the

Hillsborough Independent Panel report. And they ran the same lies,

because they have yet to be prosecuted. I think the worst

combination would have been unlawfully killed with fans

behaviour having contributed to it. So when they said, absolutely no.

They had heard this evidence, levelled against their loved ones,

levelled against survivors who were also in court, people whose lives

had been wrecked by Hillsborough, who believed that they were going to

be hold culpable. And when he said, when the jury returned, she stood

and she said, no. It was remarkable. There was an outpouring of relief,

an outpouring of grief, every emotion you can imagine. I myself

had my head down and found myself, as I feel now, sobbing. Because I

know what that has meant to the families. I have said the lesson

that so many people's premature deaths. We have had suicides. People

talk about the 96, we have had well over 200-300 people who have died

prematurely. Families that I have known really well, you know my

family really well, early-onset Alzheimer's, all kinds of issues.

And I think that was the moment when it all came to a head. So the

question now, Phil, is that people will take some time to come to terms

with the enormity of that verdict. But also their attention will turn

to what happens next. While this inquest is now over, there are

several investigations under way, and you yourself have talked about

the possibility of criminal prosecutions - do you think that

should happen? The two biggest ever criminal investigations... It is

hard sitting here to imagine a four-storey block in Warrington,

inverted, where the two largest ever investigations into any issue are

now under way and have been for three years. A criminal

investigation with over 200 officers working full-time, an Independent

Police Complaints Commission investigation with over 200 officers

working full-time. So, what we are looking at now is for the DPP to

come to a decision about the turn of the year on prosecutions, ranging

from perjury to more serious offences. What we're looking at is

probably one of the greatest ever critiques put forward by the IPCC,

the Independent Police Complaints Commission. You know, one of the

things that, living in Northern Ireland, really strikes me, is, I

could imagine this kind of attention, this kind of

investigation, around what we would consider really big issues. I'm

talking here about so-called terrorist activities, shoot to kill

policies, all of those issues that are familiar with here. These were

96 men, women and children who went to a football match like you and I

would go to the theatre or any other social event. This investigation, it

is hard to get your head round it, has cost millions and millions of

pounds. The independent panel on which I sat cost millions of pounds.

One member of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign is quoted today as

saying, Sheila Coleman, saying, we make no bones about it, we drew

great inspiration from the bloody Sunday families. And she said, the

fact that the bloody Sunday families took on what she called the might of

the British state and won helped the Hillsborough for these keep their

focus on justice. There are differences between the two cases

but similarities as well? The major difference is that the bloody Sunday

was an inquiry, this was an inquest. If you want me to comment on that,

we look at how many inquests are waiting to be brought to fruition

here for over 40 years, I think the inspiration comes from the fight for

justice. I think the bloody Sunday families also took inspiration from

the Hillsborough families, I think it works both ways. Because the

Hillsborough families' struggle has been going on for 27 years. My first

involvement with them was at the first inquests. My first involvement

with them was actually before that, at the Taylor inquiry. At the first

inquest we saw an accidental death verdict, despite all the evidence

which was brought. And then what we saw after that was a failed

prosecution of two of the senior officers. That was the point at

which I wrote them pull Hillsborough the truth. The truth has been there,

I was the person who discovered the review and alteration of all the

police statements. I have all of those statements in three forms, the

original, the changed version and the one which went into the

prosecution. This was a wholesale reconfiguration of all the

evidential base of Hillsborough. If we're going to move into that kind

of a dimension here, we have to be wary of that. That what we see as

police statements and military statements which have been taken

over time are not necessarily the state and is as they were first

made. If you have a review and alteration process as we had in

Hillsborough which a team of senior officers, underestimation again,

reviewing and altering their statements, West Midlands Police in

this case, they inherit that, then the Home Office except it then the

judicial inquiry accepts it, what you have is a process which is what

to the core. Very, very briefly if you would, is there a lesson in this

to the Barry Murphy families who are still on their quest for justice? I

think they are keen to see the Hillsborough model applied in their

case if possible? Yes, I think that the Barry Murphy families, adopting

a kind of Hillsborough panel, as a point at which you move through,

which is what happened with Hillsborough - the independent panel

scrutinises all the available material and evidence. Here it will

be more difficult, because getting security services to divulge... But

having that kind of process and taking it through, with a

substantial funding, to the end, where you then have the potential

for prosecutions. That model is a new model and it is one which I do

believe deserves full consideration. Very interesting to hear your

experience and thoughts tonight. Phil Scraton, thank you very much

for joining us. And with me to share their thoughts

on what we've been discussing are Newton Emerson

and Patricia MacBride. Let's talk first of all about the

interview with Arlene Foster. Patricia, did the DUP do the right

thing in your view in hanging so much of the campaign around Arlene?

I think there was a lot of goodwill towards Arlene Foster as a new First

Minister and leader of the party. That was when she first came in. She

was a woman, she was to the fore in the party. I don't think she has

capitalised on it in the best way. This issue around putting herself at

the forefront of the campaign, it's my plan, it's my party... It is very

much the style of leadership which Peter Robinson had, which Ian

Paisley had. She needs to distinguish herself more and bring

in a new brand of leadership to the DUP. I thought the question at the

end, when she was asked about her identity, was the only part of the

interview where she showed the kind of generosity which you might hope

for in the leader of all of Northern Ireland. This negativity which was

evident throughout the rest of the interview, where is the evidence

that that is what unionist voters actually want? The DUP did very well

when it appeared to have a better working relationship with Sinn Fein.

The TUV has stagnated. There is no evidence that this hard-line stance

she is taking, although she might think it sure base, is necessary. Do

you think she has engaged in a delicate balancing act between the

future and the past, between wanting to work with Sinn Fein because she

has to and her relationship for example with other unionists? I

think the campaign itself, keep Arlene as the First Minister, is

telling. It is creating a scaremongering effect. There's a

real false campaign here, that does not really an issue. The fact that

Arlene Foster might be challenged as First Minister, and we all know that

the ministries of first and deputy... I don't think the

relationship with Sinn Fein is as strong as perhaps it could be, as

Newton said. There did seem to be more goodwill and the relationship

was better, when the parties worked together to develop a programme for

government. Both parties' voters like it when they are together. They

have responded positively in the past and both of their votes have

grown when they have worked closely together. It is interesting that she

still will not admit to liking Martin McGuinness. Also that she

said there is no coordination on the manifesto. Not on the manifesto

perhaps, but she told the Assembly in February that they were working

together on the programme for government. Which is clearly where

these promises are coming from. Of course these two parties cooperate,

they did so even before Fresh Start. Now they are pretending not too. It

is a ridiculous sham. What did you make of Kevin Magee's report? In the

first instance, if you become a politician, then you do make a lot

of personal and professional sacrifices in your life. I don't

think that it is unreasonable if you're going into an election where

you face either losing your seat or you have come to the end of your

professional career, that you should be compensated in some way. I don't

think it is unreasonable that there should be some kind of severance

payment. Likewise, I don't think it is unreasonable that we should make

sure that it is fair. In that report from Kevin Magee, they said that the

payment was introduced at a time when it was needed to bring people

in, and that those circumstances do not exist any more. And

interestingly, he also said that he will have it for the next mandate.

Yes, the payment was there, it is too high, he has cut it. I do not

like this focus on the 100 people at Stormont that we can hold to

account. There are 100,000 people are there, most of them paid as well

as MLAs and we should be focusing on them. How do you think the public

will react? I'm sure tomorrow's Nolan show will be a classic!

That's it from The View for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics at 11:35am here on BBC One,

when I'll be talking to representatives

of the five main parties ahead of next Thursday's election.

Earlier tonight, we heard from our First Minister, Arlene Foster.

Her Scottish counterpart, Nicola Sturgeon,

Here's a flavour of how they do things over there.

I'm Nicola. I am 45, I know I don't look it. I am the leader of the SNP.

Right. I am the First Minister of Scotland, and I am totally terrified

right now. You can't be, you're not. I am a wee bit like being on a first

date with a guy that you just know is way out of your league. That is

how I feel right now. What is your worst policy, and why? It is the age

at which you can use sunbeds. We're also trying to make alcohol more

expensive. What will you do if Donald Trump gets into power, will

you deal with him or a dingy him? What do you think of his hair? It

reminds me of Dougie Donnelly. It's time to elect a new Assembly,

but who will you be voting for? we're inviting the leaders

of the larger parties for a debate.