15/09/2016 The View

It's the issue that simply will not go away -

abortion law here is making the headlines yet again.

Tonight on the The View, we ask -

is this an issue that the Assembly cannot

A senior doctor resigns her post, reports of a foetus in a cooler bag

and a call for the Attorney General to resign.

The issue of abortion and fatal foetal abnormality is back

And after a failed attempt to reform the law in the last political

term, I'll be asking the former Justice Minister, David Ford,

and the veteran SDLP politician, Alban Maguinness, if Stormont can

With a stream of allegations continuing

to flow from the NAMA deal, the leader of Fianna Fail tells

The View there needs to be an inquiry into the sale

Notwithstanding the challenges, notwithstanding the fact that people

might not wish to. Also tonight, amid the scenic

beauty of North Antrim, a battle for power and influence

is raging that could And back with us

in Commentators' Corner I cant read his mind. He resigned

because he was made to resign. And back with us

in Commentators' Corner columnist Newton Emerson

and Professor Deirdre Heenan. This is not abortion on demand, but

that's the way it's being portrayed. The words of Doctor Caroline Gannon

as she challenged politicians to break the deadlock on abortion law.

Yesterday, she said her position had become untenable after a series of

interior pensions under law surrounding termination of fatal

fees or abnormality. First here is Doctor Gannon Colling on politicians

to understand the trauma the law as it currently stands can cause some

families. We are talking about termination of pregnancy in a very

specific circumstance. It is only a very small number of cases each

year. It is that one particular scenario that we are looking at.

This is not going to become abortion on demand, but that's the way it's

being presented in the media and that is the way that our MPs in

Stormont are behaving. Thank you for joining us. Do you

understand why Caroline Gannon resigned? She is a medical

consultant. I don't know the full details of the way she factors, but

I'm certainly aware of the difficulties experienced by a number

of people in the fields due to the guidelines over a period of years.

She said that the tipping point specifically in her case was the

Attorney General John Larkin and she talks about his success of

interventions on the issue of fatal fees shall abnormality. Do you think

those two things add up? Is clear that in certain areas the Attorney

General has acted beyond what we would expect him to. For example,

the offer to conduct an enquiry on behalf of the Assembly committee was

absolutely unprecedented and was turned down. There are issues with

the Attorney General has shown a particular interest in some of these

moral issues above and beyond what he might necessarily expect of the

senior loft officer. What did you make of the specific case that

Doctor Gannon talked about prompting her departure in which she had to

provide eight coupled to bring a foetus back in the picnic bag? In my

terms, in those circumstances where the foetus had been diagnosed with

the fatal abnormality, the couple wish to know whether that would tap

implications for future pregnancy. That's why they wanted a postmortem.

They weren't able to have the treatment by doctors and other staff

in need new at home. They had to travel to England. It's the

travelling to England which I believe to be the major tragedy.

People cold for Mr Larkin to resign for allowing his personal views to

influence is legal judgment. That was the case that Eamon McCann put

forward. Do you think that he should be considering his position tonight?

He probably goes a little bit further than I would do in those

circumstances. I do think there is another question, which is, why,

when we know that reservations were expressed by at least some other

ministers about the way John Larkin carried out his duties, where he was

actually reappointed for a second term early late last year by the

First Minister and the Deputy First Minister? And think that's a

significant question which might be explored. But you don't bank on the

current circumstances that he should resign?

I certainly think you should consider the way in which he

conducts his duties. He has clear duties, but there are other areas

where he goes beyond his formal duties and shows his particular

personal interests, as opposed to be purely legal issues which are his

direct responsibility. So you think his personal views influenced his

legal advice? I think his personal views are offended on legal

precepts. You have to conduct an enquiry, he went beyond his duties

in an area where he had personal concerns. By what he had said in the

media before he ever became a and Attorney General. Can you see how

other politicians make a connection between what looks like a personal

worldview of our Attorney General John Larkin and his legal judgment?

I can understand those arguments, but they are ill founded. First of

all, John Larkin has very publicly and very honestly stated his view

that he is pro life and I think you should be given credit for that.

However, the point but John Larkin would make and I don't want to speak

on his behalf, but I would reflect, the type of you he would express is

this dash in a situation where the laws are uncertain read the laws

have to be applied, where the laws must be applied, then it is right

for him to intervene. The charge is that he has put on the record a

series of interventions, a pattern of interventions where he seems to

be particularly keen to get involved in cases where he thinks his

personal view is of some relevance and matters of concern obviously to

some people who don't necessarily share that view. The issue here is,

as I understand from Doctor Gannon, he conducted an appeal on behalf of

of the administration in relation to the abortion law case. That I

believe was the correct thing for him to do and as I said previously,

if he were pro-abortion, and he isn't, but if you were pro-abortion

or indeed neutral on the issue, he should still have conducted an

appeal. Why? Because this is such a fundamentally important issue for

everybody, not just for John Larkin, but for everybody. All politicians

and all members of the community. It is sawing Porton. And with the law

was fundamentally changed by the decision, the judge is a very fine

judge and he gave a very learning to judgment. Nonetheless, the law was

still uncertain and it was right and proper for him to say, the law is

uncertain and we must therefore appealed this case. Isn't that

exactly the position at the Department of Justice to conjure you

whenever you also became involved? Because he wanted to clarify the law

as well. So, if the Attorney General acted wrongly, arguably studied the

Department of Justice under the leadership of David Forde. I think

if you look at the detail of what was admitted at those two appeals,

you will find that what was that I was common to the Attorney General

and the Department of Justice, but the Attorney General's appeal went

somewhat beyond that. We were certainly seeking clarity on the

basis that what Mr Justice was saying around fatal fees to

abnormality was surrounding what I have proposed, was that there was a

need for clarity around some other issues. It certainly seemed to me

from the way I read it that he was opposed to any change whatsoever.

There were similarities, but they weren't exactly the same. Do you

accept that? They weren't exactly the same, but there were

similarities. The other point is that in relation to sexual crime and

abortion arising out of that, Mr Justice was saying that there could

be abortion in those circumstances effectively. There was a

consultation by the Department of Justice in relation to that, as a

result of that David Ford and the department said, we will not pursue

the issue of sexual crime, because we believe that there are serious

difficulties. The point I go back to is the uncertainty of the law

arising out of that decision. That has to be tested and has been tested

properly Court of Appeal and, of course, David Ford then as minister

did the same thing as the Attorney General. Maybe we will get the

clarification from the Court of Appeal, the Dominion you are seeking

now no longer as Minister of justice but as the backbench MLA to clarify

this particular issue and you are now starting for the first time

about the fact that that is in fact in the pipeline at Stormont. Yes.

The Private member bills that we proposed but have not gone into

detail. Can you tell us about it tonight? There has been a request

for a formal drafting support for the bill on abortion which would go

beyond any proposal that I am currently making an issue has to be

resolved by the speaker as to which of us gets the support to do it.

What would you like to do? What I want to do is exactly what I wanted

to do as minister and was blocked by the Executive. With two of my

colleagues it is an issue of conscience within the party. The

proposal is something very much in line with what I would like to do

which would allow abortion in the case of a foetus dying were two

doctors have said no treatment other than palliative care could be

offered. If you get the nod and you're able to proceed with that

legislation, would you ever realistically hope to get it through

and onto the books? That in a sense is not a question for me. I would

have to support of all my party colleagues. It is an issue of

conscience. There are clearly others and another of Sinn Fein who are

saying they would support it. Whether all of his colleagues after

an election would continue to vote against it except for one, I don't

know. If there was a free vote, which was not given I suspect there

is the potential for a majority. For that very narrow area. If you were

an MLA still, would you support it? No, no, no. I wouldn't, because I

believe that abortion is abortion. You cannot limit it. Anyway, in

relation to a foetus dying, it is ill-defined and you cannot define

it. You have to wait for the Court of Appeal is to make a decision and

see what they say in relation to this issue. What do you say to those

very few couples who are given a diagnosis of fatal foetus

abnormality and do not want to go through with the pregnancy and are

caught in an awful situation? I would have great sympathy for them.

That is not much use. And think they need proper counselling and care in

also consented. I believe that that is important and I believe that we

must be compassionate and allusion to it, but we also have to... You're

shaking your head. We must give counselling and care whatever the

circumstances and if a woman feels she cannot carry to full-time, in

those narrow circumstances, then I believe that abortion should be

lawful within Northern Ireland rather than forcing women in those

circumstances to travel to England and Scotland. And you don't make

people should have a choice? I don't believe they should have that choice

and I say that life is sacred and I believe that the life of the child

should be protected. But we know in these very reckless circumstances

this is a child which has the possibility of nose is attainable

life. It may well be, but that child has every right to be born.

A former Sinn Fein councillor, who resigned from the party over

the way Daithi McKay was treated, has told this programme other

party members are also considering their future.

In his first interview since he and 17 others

split from Sinn Fein, Paul Maguire claims Mr McKay

was forced by the party to stand down from Stormont, after it emerged

he had been coaching the loyalist Jamie Bryson on how to give evidence

The Sinn Fein President, Gerry Adams, has told us the party

intends to engage with the former members in

Here's our Political Correspondent, Gareth Gordon.

This is a corruption of the Assembly process. He made a terrible mistake.

The Daithi McKay affair rocked Stormont and shook Sinn Fein,

especially in North Antrim where long-term divisions became a

rupture. 18 party members resigning in sympathy with their departed MLA.

Of course, North Antrim as a setting for a battle over in ancient Rome, a

seat and the Northern Ireland Assembly, is hardly a novel idea. It

is not quite Game of Thrones but this little drama has attracted more

than enough onlookers for the liking of Sinn Fein and it might not be

over yet. This is Paul Maguire, former Sinn Fein councillor and for

three years chairman of the party in North Antrim. This is his first

broadcast interview since leaving. First question, did Daithi McKay act

alone? Daithi McKay told me that no one senior to him was involved and

Daithi McKay, to the best of my knowledge, has never told me a lie.

Paul Maguire acknowledges that Sinn Fein have come through much worse

than this and says there may be more resignations to come. Sinn Fein in

North Antrim knows that the 18 people who resigned were significant

in North Antrim. There are people left, but they would be more

card-carrying members and activists. I know that there has been one

further resignation and from what I can hear and from what I am told,

there will be more to follow. Daithi McKay has said nothing publicly

since his resignation, Paul Maguire doubts that he has a future in the

party. I would find it impossible to think that Daithi McKay could or

would be brought back into the party. Because of the way in which

he was made to resign. And the attitude since his resignation. What

do you mean by that? I am aware of communication between them and

Daithi McKay and it has not been pleasant. Do you think this will

harm Sinn Fein electorally in North Antrim? The biggest thing that will

harm Sinn Fein electorally in North Antrim is the candidate. That is a

reference to Philip McGuigan, the man co-opted to replace Daithi McKay

as an MLA. If he had stood in Causeway Coast and Graham is a game

as a counsellor, I do not think he would have got elected. I cannot see

him being elected if he stands in 2020. As an MLA? As an MLA. Philip

McGuigan was not available for interview but the party leader this

week appeared to hold out an olive branch to the members who have gone.

It is always a negative when people leave the party. We are going to

engage with every single one of those former members and we hope

that they will reflect and come back into the party, at least one has

already done so and I hope others will also do so. What Daithi McKay

did was wrong and the very fact that he resigned under the right thing

his acknowledgement of that. This Sinn Fein watcher believes that

Daithi McKay may still have a future in the party. The fact that he has

not said anything publicly yet would lead me to believe that the door is

still open for him to continue playing a part and I think it would

be interesting to see if Sinn Fein can manage that and I think that

would be some way of clawing back something out of this for the party

if they were able to bring him back into the fold. Whatever happens to

Daithi McKay, his friend Paul Maguire says his own 42 year

association with Sinn Fein is over, for good.

This evening, Sinn Fein emailed a statement to Gareth Gordon

describing Paul Maguire's claims as, "nonsense with no basis in fact."

It continues: "Daithi McKay resigned and stated clearly that his contact

with Jamie Bryson was 'inappropriate" and 'wrong.'

That was Daithi's decision and was the correct decision.

This should not distract from the issue of fixers

and insiders being involved in the events leading to the sale

This evening the republic's political leaders have agreed

on a statutory investigation into NAMA's sale of

What exactly is to be investigated is still to be decided

that'll be thrashed out in the coming weeks.

The Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin spoke to me just

before he went into that meeting this evening.

I put to him the Taoiseach's concern that may be difficult to gain

cooperation and information from Northern Ireland.

I think we have to proceed independently of those who might not

wish to co-operate. I have met with Mick Wallace sometime ago. I am not

one for putting down motions for an investigation, you have to identify

what you can achieve and what you cannot and there will be

limitations. Notwithstanding the challenges, notwithstanding the fact

that people might not wish to that in itself does not invalidate the

idea that we should set up a commission of investigation. We have

learned a lot to date, but suffers to say, that when substantial sums

of money migrate into an offshore account, when we hear shocking

revelations of the kind that we heard and saw last week in the BBC

Spotlight programme, shocking revelations, you add to that the

report in the Republic in terms of his assessment of the deal and the

difference approach taken by NAMA to such a large property portfolio, to

that of others that it sold, at the inability to really resolve the

conflicts of interest involving Frank Cushnahan, there is no way

that we can proceed without a statutory enquiry, in my view. You

mentioned the shocking revelations in the Spotlight programme. Are you

referring specifically to the part of the programme in which Frank

Cushnahan was recorded accepting a cash payment of ?40,000 from a NAMA

client in a hospital car park? Yes, that of course was a very shocking

part of that programme, but there were other elements of the programme

as well, in relation to the entire episode. I get the sense that there

was a strong and I have to be careful what I say, because I think

that is why we need a commission investigation, but there seem to be

a political oversight in terms of what would happen to all of the

distressed properties in Northern Ireland. There was an engagement

with NAMA at a macro level may be, it was a portfolio that seems to

have been handled differently to any other property portfolio that came

under the remit of NAMA and I think it needs to be teased out. In the

Republic as well, midway through, I desire by the Minister of Finance to

accelerate NAMA's disposal of assets and that is something that needs to

be examined. The decision for example, to sell all of the Northern

properties in one portfolio in one go, that needs to be examined. What

I cannot understand and I have said that already, when it emerged that

the unit had defined the success fees of up to 1 million to be set

aside, when that was established, why they did not call of the deal

then, that is beyond me. It is the headaches of the entire deal that

should matter to NAMA and the government,. I never believed that

to be a tenable defence on behalf of NAMA or the Minister of Finance.

There are many issues there and the whole other range of interesting

insights to be gleaned from the spotlight programme and probably

trails that could lead in many directions, but the conversation in

the car park was quite shocking. Also, there are other revelations or

assertions, which may be challenged by other individuals, but other

individuals which were mentioned and referenced in a particular programme

and that made for very disturbing viewing indeed. I understand why you

say you need to be careful about what you say, but you have just used

a very interesting phrase, you talked about political oversight in

terms of the sale of the NAMA portfolio, what do you mean by

political oversight? I tried to choose my words carefully, pulled

political interest, engagement between the Northern Ireland

Executive and ministers in the Executive and the Minister of

Finance, for example, albeit at a macro level, but nonetheless, we

need to examine the rationale for that, the motivation behind it. At

one level, the people, given the size of the properties involved, may

have been concerned about the impact on the Northern economy and that

might have been the rationale put forward, but when you look at the

Spotlight programme, you get a different sense, when you look at

the work of Frank Cushnahan on the NAMA advisory committee, his

interaction, you get a sense of what was going on here. I have spoken to

Mick Wallace and others and what they are picking up is that there

was a different kind of exercise. I'm not suggesting any wrongdoing,

but nonetheless, I do not think there was the same level of

political engagement in other property portfolios under the remit

of NAMA as there was in relation to Northern Ireland, that there was

engagement between the office of First Minister and Deputy First

Minister, and NAMA. There are differing views here and how this

matter to be investigated and the position of the DUP is that this is

not a matter for politicians, it should be a matter for the police

and in particular, the National Crime Agency an Arlene Foster has

said that as far as she is concerned, she would not rule

anything in or out as far as a commission of investigation is

concerned, but the MCA investigation into the sale of the NAMA lumber,

has to have primacy as far as she is concerned and only after it has

reported, can we discuss anything else. How difficult does that make a

two state approach to any further investigation that you are

suggesting needs to happen? It makes it difficult. We do not want to

undermine in any shape or form the work of the National Crime Agency or

undermine the prospect of anyone being brought to justice if

wrongdoing has been seen to have happened here in the context of that

investigation. Nonetheless we have had experience in terms of the

banking enquiry, a Parliamentary enquiry with statutory powers, to

have an enquiry, without it affecting, criminal trials, that

were underway in relation to certain banks here in the Republic. We are

very clear in terms of the statutory investigation, not a political one,

in our legislation, a commission of investigation would be independent

of politics and in accordance with proper statute and law at and with

due deference to people's rights and so on. And it is well within its

reach to go as far as possibly can and it is our view that it could

shed significant light on what has happened and give people an

opportunity to give their presentations without undermining

the work of the National Crime Agency. We would like to see

something similar on a statutory basis within the North. Have already

had the Assembly looking at this in terms of the Finance committee,

there were issues of Sinn Fein coaching witnesses aren't you do not

need that and that undermine that investigation. I think John Fleming

has made some interesting suggestions, in terms of sharing the

workload, complementing each other's work in terms of subsequent

enquiries getting underway. It is in the interests of everyone in here

and in Westminster to make sure that we use the statutory frameworks that

we have in each jurisdiction to shed as much light as he possibly can on

this episode on the sale of project Eagle given the sums of money

involved and to make sure that the obligations of the state to our

taxpayer are fully honoured at discharge.

The Fianna Fail leader, Micheal Martin, talking

to me earlier - and, of course, Frank Cushnahan has

consistently denied any wrongdoing in relation to his role at NAMA.

Let's hear what tonight's commentators make of

With me are Newton Emerson and Deirdre Heenan.

Welcome to you both. We now know the commission of investigation is going

to happen, but there are still in full lot of detail to be thrashed

out. I think it is interesting that a shaky coalition Government in the

south has decided to go ahead with this. They are caught in between the

controller and auditor general saying there is something wrong in

Nam. A damning report. The Government are saying we expect

this, but at the same time we have confidence in it. It's almost like

they don't want to choose sides so they have decided to have an

enquiry. I know that may sound cynical, but you cant support both

sides here. Not like is it the case that the two jurisdictions involved

in any subsequent investigation, potentially handers any

investigation taking place? It doesn't need to. What hinders an

investigation is that there are no criminal investigation is taking

place on both sides of the border. NEMA have now called the guards and

the criminal investigation gets under nobody apart from Jamie Bryson

will testify to a Parliamentary committee, because they don't want

in common it themselves. They have also told Stormont to stop working

until the investigation is concluded and have refused an investigation to

testify, because it knows that it would be a bad idea. It's not two

jurisdictions, is multiple investigations going on there is the

problem. It can only be at this bay finger-pointing. So when the say

nothing can happen until it is over. You might see they say that because

they have an agenda to cover it up, but they have told Stormont to stop

investigation. I think the grandstanding is important, because

I think in the Republic the taxpayers are concerned and they are

realising that the taxpayers are concerned that their money has not

been well spent and in the end they are the people who are going to have

to pay for it. It is politicians pointing fingers at one another.

They could call the police. The best way to get at the truth it was said

today on camera is through DN see a investigation. You can believe

Arlene Foster or not, but that is the end of parliamentary enquiries.

They are just obstructions. What did you make of this phrase, as far as

the sale of Project Eagle was concerned? He was intimating

political interviews, but he didn't mention political parties. He is

being careful, but there is huge concern. They are dancing between

two jurisdictions. It was extraordinary how the bit back and

said they did not accept it and said those people are not qualified to

make the decisions. It is very unusual. Is talk about abortion. An

interesting exchange between David Ford and Alban Maginness. Would you

make about David Ford talking about his plans for a Private members

Bill. We now know he is hoping that the way to square the circle. The

last time you tried this is just as minister in cell, because he had to

include sexual crime onto it, because that was Sinn Fein's policy.

I think he's hoping now that Sinn Fein will help him with a narrow

workers. It is all in the hands of Sinn Fein. They might not want to

touch this, because they have their own problems with this controversy.

It will depend on Arlene and whether or not they are allowed to free

vote. He said that he almost had the support of all of his own party. It

didn't show us with confidence. Do you get the sense that it is an

issue where it MLAs cannot will not resolve the issue? Idol lingers any

hope of as having a legal decision made. It is the social attitudes

that are different. It is very toxic and divisive, if they can avoid it

That's almost it from The View for this week.

Join me for our first Sunday Politics of the new season

But before we go, it's the story that's set

US Presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, collapsed

at the weekend, but was seen looking fit and well

though not everyone was convinced by her rapid recovery.

It may be the wildest conspiracy theory of the year, Hillary Clinton

with a body double. The most insane conspiracy theory

you have ever heard. The body double believers pointed out physical

differences, saying the real Hillary had different index fingers.