09/03/2017 The View

One week on from polling day, how will unionism deal

And how should nationalism approach this shift in the political balance?

So what are the lessons of the election for the main parties?

I think what the DUP need to do is reach out with a generosity of

spirit and a liberty of spirit, but also Sinn Fein need to rise to the

task as well. We'll ask the DUP's

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson and Ulster Unionist David Campbell

is a renewed attempt to create Plus what does this election reveal

about the re-animated nationalist vote - we'll hear

from Sinn Fein's Mairtin O Mullieor We've given commentators a night off

after a gruelling election but there's no stopping the tireless

Mark Devenport. Unionist unity is once again

on the agenda after an Assembly election which for the first time

saw unionism's Stormont Now a former Ulster Unionist deputy

leader has told this programme it's time for unionists to "unlock

the doors" between the parties. But with a growing nationalist

population, would one big unionist party be the answer,

or is the solution for unionists -- This report from our

Political Correspondent, Gareth Gordon, begins

with the election verdict of the The Unionist majority in the

Assembly has been ended. And the notion of a permanent or perpetual

Unionist majority has been demolished.

The tectonic plates of political landscape has shifted. I see this as

a critical moment, which has parallels with 1912. But the man who

wrote the history of Ulster says that for the union, it is not yet

terminal. There was a border poll in a year, almost certainly people

would vote to stay in the union. Partly because they know that the

Irish Republic has not got a a year to put into the Northern Ireland

economy, and partly because... Many people who were infuriated by Arlene

Foster and voted for nationals parties quietly would be voting to

stay in a United Kingdom, with all its benefits. Do you think that is

what this was about? People on the Nationalist side being infuriated by

Arlene Foster? Absolutely, of course they were.

But Unionists are alarmed. There is even talk, again, of Unionist unity.

It has really worked in the past. I would hope so, but I don't think it

will. I would be voting in favour of the Prime Minister.

CHEERING You're hiding away!

During the election campaign, Arlene Foster went to market and met the

warden. If she bent down, that would be gone. Her son was murdered in the

Kingsmill massacre. Dennis's brother says that Unionists must work

together. -- Kenneth's brother. I honestly believe that there should

only be one Unionist party. There cannot be that much dreaming, it is

mainly personalities. They should get together and get the majority

back into Stormont. Do you think that would happen if they did get

together? Without a doubt. I still believe there is thousands of people

who did not bother voting. Why? You know, the DUP has been seeing this

last ten years fought for us or else Sinn Fein will be deep house party,

this time they cried wolf, they will cause an side. Up the street, one of

the best-known Unionist casualties of this election is considering life

after Stormont. Everybody in the house of unionism, I think, has no

agency to open some of the connecting doors which have been

locked between the various factions and the various interests within

unionism for quote period. It is time to unlock those doors and to

allow a deep conversation and a genuine assessment as to where we

are. I don't think the union actually is in danger. I think in

any referendum, a majority of the population will still thought to

remain part of the United Kingdom. But I think we do need a

conversation within unionism as to how best we move forward.

Geographically, at any rate, the headquarters of the Ulster Unionist

Party are only a few hundred yards away from... The headquarters of the

Democratic Unionist Party. With demographics changing, would uniting

these two parties really be the answer to unionism's troubles? This

man is a DUP founder member. He is also a former special adviser to

Nigel Dodds, but he is not convinced by the calls for Unionist unity. In

many ways, I felt in a state of shock, Unionists rallied to Unionist

unity as a bit of a comfort blanket to make themselves feel better. But

there is a large elephant in the room, and that is the massive

mandate that Sinn Fein have received. So I think Unionist unity

might have its merits, but it is not a panacea and while I would like to

see Unionists coming together, it might be better done through a form

of Unionist Council, as it was done in the 1970s and the one, or if you

are going to one party, I think there is only one party that people

can unite around and that is the DUP. Although he is regarded as a

fundamentalist, Wallace Thompson raised eyebrows with a Facebook post

this week in which he urged his party to compromise. What we as

Unionists need to do is recognise that we are faced with a significant

proportion of the people of Northern Ireland now voting, sadly from our

point of view, for a Sinn Fein. We need to reach out from those

folders. We need to reach out as best we can in the spirit, and I do

not like a bird, rise because it is a dirty word but, as is part of

life. It has to work both ways. -- I do not like the word compromise. The

DUP need to reach it with the generosity of spirit, a liberty of

spirit but Sinn Fein need to rise to the task as well. I am a Protestant,

and Ulster man, a British citizen, but I am an Irish man and I think

that breadth of perspective is what is needed. If unionism is

reassessing, it must do so from a much weakened position.

My guess from the DUP, and a former chair of the Ulster Unionist Party.

Welcome, though. Jeffrey, first of. Senior figures have already admitted

last Thursday's result was not a good one for unionism. You yourself

there are lessons to be learned. Some are bigots have tried to

suggest it was a good result, you do not believe that, do you? -- from

other figures. We have to be honest from a starting point, don't we, and

the reality is they were seen we should have one and did not and I

think we need to ask yourself why that happened. The result of that

was that it was just. Sinn Fein increased Thursday of the vote by 4%

and we have to recognise that as well. Albeit on a higher turnout, if

that remains to be seen if that can't be sustained, if it was a

turnout comparable with, not far short of the 1998 vote. So I do not

think it is all doom and gloom for unionism, far from it, but I do

think that the results of this election compelled was, the Ulster

Unionist Party and the Democratic Unionist Party, to do what Danny

Kennedy has talked about, open those interconnecting doors, talk to each

other and see the extent to which we can cooperate for the good of

unionism. I want to come onto that for a

moment or two. Your party leader, Arlene Foster,

said the board went up and you're still the biggest party at Stormont.

In the context of what you have just said, is she being dishonest? Not at

all. With respect, both apply in this sense. I heard commentators

talk about the DUP losing the election. I think Arlene is

absolutely right to point out the fact that the DUP, despite the very

difficult circumstances, remain the largest party.

You lost ten seats. Narrowly. The reduction in the number of seats in

the event, we would have lost at least half of those seats anyway.

Yes, but the gap last time was 36,000, it is now 1200. They are

snapping at your heels. And I said that, Mark, on your programme after

and I thank the electorate for and I thank the electorate for

sticking with us. We did increase our thought, but the reality is that

unionism combined needs to examine the results of this election, and

ask why did we not win more seats? We had the votes to do it. Take

South Belfast as one but one example. We had enough votes for two

quarters in south Belfast, across the Unionist family. We only won a

single feed and that constituency. You know why that was, because DUP

voters did not transfer to the Ulster Unionist Party did, and if

they had done that the first MLA in south Belfast would be Michael

Henderson of the Ulster Unionist Party, not clear belly of the Green

party. It is your voters who lost to that seed! That is a fact. It worked

both ways, with respect. That as an example of the DUP not actually

backing up Unionist unity, or the idea of one sense of unionism by

transferring within unionism. They are the ones who did not do it! But

Mark, voters vote as water as well. We advise them, and it is very

clear, we advise our borders to transfer to other Unionist

candidates. That was clear. They did not take your advice in south

Belfast. They did to some extent, but not the extent we didn't do. In

an honest way, I am saying to you we need to examine why this has

happened. Edmund Burke has been the good of all the fault of the Ulster

Unionist Party because they did not transfer to the DUP in Lagan Valley.

That is only half of the story, that is my point. And, Mark, I have not

come on here, with respect, to try to put words in my mouth. I have not

said anything by way of criticism of the Ulster Unionist Party. I have

said that unionism, collectively, needs to examine why we did not win

as many seats as we did and I am that applies across the board.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I just think that the words

coming out of your mouth and not necessarily the ones coming out of

Arlene Foster's or Edwin Poots... I think people respond to specific

questions asked of them. I was absolutely right to point out that

actually the DUP still emerged as the largest party, albeit by a

narrow margin. But we all accept, and I can tell you, in the internal

discussions we have had this week within the DUP, we recognise that

unionism needs to do better in terms of winning seats at Stormont.

OK, let me bring David Campbell on. How bad a result you think it was

for the overarching Unionist family? I think it was an appalling result,

but it is a result that we can now work with and build on and I am one

with Geoffrey in terms of encouraging cooperation. I do not

understand the logic of a unionist water, for example in Lagan Valley,

voting for a national candidate with a higher preference than another

Unionist candidate. It justifies... You understand the logic of a DUP

voter in south Belfast not transferring onto another Unionist?

Speak about the two examples are virtually identical. Do you accept

the situation that happened in Lagan Valley may be because your party

leader, Mike Nesbitt, encouraged people a couple of weeks before the

election to transfer, as they saw fit. Not necessarily driver Unionist

but to the middle ground, to the SDLP? In part, yes. Although,

ironically, in the manner and South Tyrone, it worked in favour of

Ulster Unionist Party retaining a seat. Due to transfer is from the

SDLP. But your principle is correct. And our canvassers and candidates

would identify a definite shift in the attitude to voting for the

party. So, is the answer then, in your view, that the two main

Unionist parties need to find some better way, as you would see it, of

working together in future? Yes, my proposition would be cooperation,

rather than looking at some form of complete unity or merger. So not one

you party? No, I think both parties are elements of the voting

electorate that the other partys cannot attract at the moment. We

should not also forget the significant Loyalist Unionist vote,

which simply does not come out at all, and we have to reach out to

that and we should be including the DUP in future discussions as well.

Even though it has the connections that it has? Well, it has

connections which are committed to peace and moving Northern Ireland

forward peacefully. Therefore I do not see a problem with working with

them. I do work with them on a daily basis, as you know, through my work

with the Loyalist Council. But one of the big sectors of the Unionist

population that is not coming out to vote for any Unionist party is

largely the Unionist Loyalist working class. Due to a similar

view, Jeffrey Donaldson, that there needs to be a closer relationship

between the two Unionist parties, but not some kind of unity because

arguably the some of the parts would be less because there is no evidence

that the two parties would work well together and one may gravitate

towards the Alliance party rather than being consumed by the DUP? I

think David is absolutely right about the starting point on this

journey. I think we do need to look at closer co-operation. He is right.

I don't think it would be viable at this stage simply overnight to merge

the two parties together. However, I do think that in the longer term, it

may well be that word this -- where this relationship evolves is to have

a broader Unionist movement and I think that we have to look at how we

can bring more Unionists out to vote. One of the things that turns

Unionist voters off is what they perceive to be, and rightly so,

internal bickering within unionism, and I am sure that came out very

much in this election and impacted on transfers, costing unionism

seats. So where in the past we have cooperated, for example, in the

general election, we returned more Unionist seats as a result of that

cooperation, so I think cooperation between the two parties is a good

starting point. Can you explain to people who might be slightly baffled

about this why it is so important for unionism to regain that majority

at Stormont, White is so important for unionism to be in the driving

seat as you might see at politics here and why Unionist unity is so

important because for a lot of people watching, they will say they

do not want to go back to the politics of orange and green, they

want to look forward to a more progressive and modern kind of

politics Northern Ireland? Well, power-sharing is the way forward.

Unionism is not looking for a return to majority rule at Stormont. That

is absolutely clear. We understand that as well as building a consensus

within unionism, we have also got to build a consensus across the

political divide. However, I believe passionately in the union. I am a

union is because I believe that Northern Ireland is better off as

part of the United Kingdom. And therefore, every Unionist seat that

is one strengthens the union. Yes, but Arlene Foster in her piece in

the Belfast Telegraph this week talks specifically about the need

for unionism to be the dominant force. In terms of preserving the

union, yes. But our Stormont system has built into it checks and

balances that prevents anyone dominating anyone else. And

therefore, it is not... Arlene Foster is quite right to say that we

want unionism to be predominant in the sense that we want the

constitutional argument for the United Kingdom to be the one that

enjoys the majority support in Northern Ireland. I believe it still

does. Would it be the end of the world of nationalism was the

dominant force in Northern Ireland? Well, then we would end up with

Northern Ireland leaving the United Kingdom. Not necessarily. The rules

are pretty clear, Mark. The rules say that if that scenario were to

happen we would have a vote. You are probably right and I am confident

that we would win. But psychologically these things are

important. And you heard Gerry Adams on your about destroying the

Unionist majority. He has talked about, well, I will not use the

crude terms that he has spoken about when he used foul language to

describe how he would break unionism. I would not repeat that

but I will simply say this. A strong unionism is a good partner to build

a stronger political consensus. And I would say to Sinn Fein in

particular that if you want the peace process to move forward, and I

hope we all do, and if you hope to build a stable Northern Ireland,

then you need a strong partner to do that. And can it be led by Arlene

Foster after the result she has just delivered? She has a good

confidence? -- she has little confidence? Yes, she does. And in

our parliamentary group, that is absolutely clear. She continues to

enjoy strong support. And do you think that Ulster Unionists would be

happy with the prospect, David Campbell, of Arlene Foster broadly

leading the Unionist family after presiding over what you have

described as an appalling election result for unionism? Well, she was

ill advised not to stand beside in January, but we are where we are

now. Should you stand aside now? No, Magic of the Unionist electorate in

general is she would be appalled if she conceded to this outrageous the

band -- demand. There is not a contradiction there? No, I think if

she had done it in January we would have avoided this but we have a

situation that the enquiry judge today could be at least six or seven

months before a report. OK. You should be the new leader of the

Ulster Unionist Party, because we now know that that is definitely

going to change? Well, I would hope that the party would take time to

reflect and to consult internally before it crashes into that. Well,

it is supposed to be happening on April the 8th. Well, I would hope

that that is revisited. So you would like to see a much longer period?

Yes. And who would you support? Tom Elliott. He has ruled himself out. I

would like to see the party encourage him. Even though he has

said he does not want the job. In terms of increased cooperation, Tom

has a personal vested interest in cooperation. He should not have

resigned or retired prematurely, in my view, five years ago and I would

like to see him come back and complete the mandate that he got so

convincingly five years ago. Interesting idea. We will see if we

can persuade him to change his mind. That is the future of unionism

sorted. I just think it is an amazing day

and we are delighted. Thank you very much to the electorate who have come

out in such numbers. The boat has increased. I think it was a good day

for the SDLP and a very difficult atmosphere. The only one to afford

every single Assembly elections since the Good Friday Agreement and

to have won a seat. I can tell you formally, officially, you are an

MLA. You have been returned. In this particular election, people using

the phrase, sustain the flame, did not seem totally appropriate.

Joining the art Mairtin O'Muilleoir. Do you regret leaving? There is a

saying that nothing seems to change day-to-day but then when you look

back everything has changed. Someone said this was a polarising election

on Thursday. If you analyse it, it was a coming together of people. We

have this progressive alliance. It was the Greens who moved to the side

of equality and justice and the Alliance party are very strong on

marriage equality. Plus the SDLP. And do we leave out those who

believe in discrimination? Yes, we do. But there is a golden bridge.

Those who want to stand up and I heard a very dismal view of what the

future holds for our people from my dear friend Jeffrey there. I do not

think it is a very -- and it is a bright future if we can all agree.

But those people who support the DUP, they have to be included. You

have talked about equality and respect and all the rest of it

during the election campaign. The DUP has a huge mandate. You just did

not include them. No, I said it was a great day for the bright side of

the road people. But those who do not believe in equality... Of

course, I believe in an inclusive community. The first thing I did as

finance minister... So you do not want to bolster the fading fortunes

of the DUP? Some voters transferred to the SDLP. Let me explain. What is

happening in this society is different than what Geoffrey and

David talked about. People are making choices based on the idea of

real partnership and a real fresh start, back to the Good Friday

Agreement principles of parity. And when you make those choices then you

do move away from discrimination. Whether you like it or not, they do

not agree with you on those issues. They may agree with you on some

issues and they may be your partners in Government if Stormont gets back

up and running again. It has been said that it looks like your vision

of a new Belfast includes everyone except the fading DUP. I would like

Belfast and Dublin for everyone. Is that not the point? I respect more

steeply and I agree with him. I wasn't the City Council in 1997. For

400 years, it was a Government for one side of her people. In the years

since 1997, I think people who live in Belfast will include -- will

agree that we have a better city because of inclusion. But the DUP

still has a place at the table? In my table, everyone eats at the same

table but in the version of the DUP, some people eat in the kitchen and I

am wholly against that. We are all at the front of the bus together. I

think they would disagree. Let me ask Danny Morrison, who has been

involved with Sinn Fein for many years and is now a commentator. He

says and he said this on social media. I have noticed some

triumphalism from some Republican supporters. I draw the line at

hurting Unionist friends. Should you not take that on board? I do. We

should be joyful. It is a left for her spirits after a period when they

believed that we were not getting the fault in our side. We stood

against DUP arrogance and we do not want to rip -- replicate that. Are

we going to get back to the principles of real partnership and

power-sharing? For me, I would be saying to everyone, listen, it was

an important victory not only for shin pain but also for more per

parties who are progressive. How do you think nationalism needs to

respond? And the fact that there are those within the Unionist community

who feel the need to circle the wagons? Well, I think the way that

we respond is not the way that the DUP has responded over the last ten

years. I think we need to look at the issue of equality and being open

and acceptable. I think Unionist have to realise that they have

nothing to fear in the setup that we have. We have a Government. We have

a Good Friday Agreement and other agreements since. We have a Stormont

executive that is set up anyway that is exclusive. We may not. That is

the point. Yes, but if everybody works together and I think there are

positive moves to progress that. Are there at the moment? Even beyond the

parties, the people have given a mandate for Stormont. Sinn Fein now

have make the decision. The people of spoken and said that they want to

see a Stormont executive. They have elected people in and said that they

wanted to have a Stormont executive so it is important that we play is

that there because there are many issues that we have to. We have

health and education and Brexit and many things that we must respond to

and Unionists have nothing to fear with this nationalist majority.

Maybe they are concerned whenever they hear Gerry Adam saying that

last week's vote was clearly a vote for Irish unity. Was it? Well, it

was certainly a watershed vote. Certainly my vote was for Irish

unity. Did you say that on the doorsteps? Michelle O'Neill said at

every point that it was about respect and integrity and I did not

hear anybody from Sinn Fein saying it was a book for Irish unity. I

think any motherboards -- anyone that fought for our party or the

SDLP is voting for Irish unity. So people were voting for Sinn Fein

burst about Irish unity and only subsequently about RHI and... I did

not say that. I think it was a referendum on RHI, to call time on

the arrogance of the DUP, a referendum on not tolerating the

smear of corruption in a party which is at the heart of government.

Alleged corruption. But also it was very certainly people saying, for

the Sinn Fein vote, we agree with you that, especially I suppose

because of Brexit, because this has bought a united Ireland front and

centre,... Do you want to the devolved institutions running again

as soon as possible? Absolutely. The DUP and British Government are to

make the move is to deliver that. That was the message, not only are

vote but the thought that Alliance got and ourselves, it was the end of

the British government, time to step up and telling the DUP to step up.

This disdain towards the Nationalist electorate, this disdain towards

minorities, towards gay and lesbian people, unacceptable. I have not

heard anything yet, but I really do want to see the British government

say that they will honour the agreement that we signed, which need

to be implemented. Do you believe that the devolved institutions will

be back up and running sooner rather than later? I think they will. I

think there is a well under half of all other parties to deliver the

institutions. And how you want to be made government? We'll be SDLP

wanted to dig its position in the Executive? We would like to. We

stood on the manifesto to be part of a government that is part of the

negotiations over the next couple of weeks, we will do what we can to try

to secure the best deal and then we will make our decision. All right,

OK. Joining me tonight to reflect

on what we've been hearing on the programme is our

Political Editor, Mark Devenport. He has not had a day off in about

six months! Let's talk about what we heard first of all in the

conversation about Unionist unity. Did you think there is a real will

veer to the things change any significant way? Well, you had to

make Unionists singing of a very similar hymn sheet inasmuch as both

of them felt that in principle unity was a good idea, both of them felt

that maybe they should move slowly towards that through some kind of

Unionist movement or greater cooperation, rather than seeking one

big merger of the party. The fact is, there are lots of different

strains of unionism. It is not necessarily the constitutional

question which will make any kind of move towards Unionist unity

difficult, it is the differing attitudes towards social, moral

questions. What kind of a UK people would like to live in, and that is

going to be difficult thing, to try to create a big house unionism that

can accommodate all those different strains. Two things about union 's

leadership. A very interesting to hear David Campbell say he would

like Tom Elliott to come back as a leader, even though Mr Elliott has

ruled that out. I wonder if you believe that Arlene Foster both

lacked leadership is now, or that issues about that, are bidding of

the days pass or is that still an issue behind the scenes within the

DUP? I still think it is a bit of an issue within the DUP, although I

think some of an issue within the DUP, although I think, that original

server, on the eve of the election we had the former DUP MLA predicting

that Arlene Foster would be gone by Monday, that manifestly has not

happened. She has come out and fronted up. But under the surface,

there are still concerns about her model of leadership and also the

talks have this big unanswered question, if you like, the elephant

in the room is Will she ultimately say, yes, I will step back for the

duration of the inquiry? Which is a long time to step back and even

David Campbell was saying that he did not think that was doable. Tom

Elliott, is that seriously a runner? Well, he has ruled himself out of

course. He has come to the forefront as chief negotiator of the party and

as David Campbell said he has got a stake in Unionist unity but if this

thing does take off, the question is, he will be loose on the margins

who may be closer towards the Alliance Party? Just a final thought

about the debate within nationalism. At the moment Sinn Fein is a very

strong position and was this was -- was disabled against everything we

saw in relation to the RHI was a vote of her constitutional

significance? Gerry Adams talking tonight about it being able for

Irish unity. From question whether the board that was put together was

purely in relation to that. It seems to be in relation to a whole mixture

of things. That's it from The View for this

week, but I'll be back with Sunday Politics at 11.35

here on BBC1. We leave you tonight with a younger

person's take on the election posters that have adorned -

or deformed - our streets for weeks now - and who knows, they may be

needed again quite soon?! This is courtesy of Shane Todd,

aka 11-year-old Dean Davidson. My name is deemed Davidson. He looks

like he has been grounded for ages or something. She looks like the

dinner ladies in my skill. I seen him on the news, he was like

Spiderman. I think he goes to my skill!

He is not even properly looking at the camera. You have to look at the

camera. That is nice, that.

I like her. Do you want her to be your girlfriend?