Browse content similar to 16/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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For five years he's been the man in charge | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
of the Ulster Unionist Party, but not for much longer. | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
Tonight, in his first broadcast interview since | :00:09. | :00:10. | |
he announced his resignation, Mike Nesbitt reflects | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
As he leaves the party with just ten MLAs at Stormont, | :00:13. | :00:41. | |
does Mike Nesbitt regret those pre-election comments | :00:42. | :00:42. | |
But it wasn't because of what I said about the SDLP, it was because of | :00:43. | :00:55. | |
what Arlene Foster said about Republicans. That crocodile comment | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
really did serve as a lightening rod that incredibly energised | :01:02. | :01:02. | |
nationalists and republicans. With the prospect of a border | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
poll back on the agenda, we hear the views of border | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Protestants on Irish unity. I'd rather the border disappeared | :01:09. | :01:16. | |
and we were governed by London because I value the NHS in here. | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Also tonight, we're live in Washington as President Trump | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
hosts his first St Patrick's Day reception at the White House. | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
And putting their heads together in Commentators' Corner | :01:26. | :01:27. | |
are columnist Alex Kane and Allison Morris | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
After five years in charge of the Ulster Unionists, | :01:30. | :01:40. | |
Mike Nesbitt is preparing for a new life out of the spotlight. | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
He's kept his counsel since announcing his intention | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
to stand down at that dramatic election night press conference | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
almost a fortnight ago, but tonight he's broken his silence | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
to give his first broadcast interview to The View. | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
When he came into the studio earlier, I began by asking him if it | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
had ever crossed his mind during the campaign that it | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
It was a very hard election to predict. I have fought a number of | :02:01. | :02:12. | |
elections since 2010 actually if you count being a candidate, a campaign | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
manager and party leader, nine in seven years. And this was the | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
hardest to call. So yeah, when you're out on canvass you think what | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
if it goes well? What if it goes badly? And it didn't go well? It go | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
well in terms of the seats and there is no point me saying to you we put | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
18% on to our first preference that some people did exceptionally well | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
like Robin Swann put his own vote up 37% because the fact is that 16 | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
seats in 108 seater Assembly is the equivalent of 13.3 in a 90 seater, | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
we came back with ten. That's three down. And we couldn't afford to drop | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
one and the buck stops with me. And the reality is those figures are | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
interesting, but the figure that really counts is you had 16 and you | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
have ten. You ran 24 candidates. You told me in a pre-election interview | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
you believed you would win nearly all those seats and you won ten. How | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
many, when we were having that conversation, did you really think | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
you could win? What I said to you from memory is that we basically | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
needed to win just about all of the 24 if we were going to replace the | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
DUP because most of them would have been wins off the DUP. Although | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
ironically our bun big success in East Antrim, John Stewart, took the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
seat off Sinn Fein. As Tom Elliott had taken the seat off Sinn Fein in | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
the Westminster election in 2015. Did you believe you could win nearly | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
all the 24 seats or were you just talking it up? No, I thought it was | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
possible because it was a very, very difficult election to predict, but | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
if you were in a normal democracy and that was the pitch that I made, | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
you would say to yourself well, look we're going to the polls because of | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
a scandal which reeks of incompetence and arrogance and | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
cronyism and all the rest plus we've had ten years and three-man dates of | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
the same two parties in the equivalent of ten Downing Street and | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
Stormont Castle running the Government. So, the pitch was, | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
folks, you can reward the Government if you really think they've done a | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
good job and give them another mandate or for the first time in the | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
96 year history of Northern Ireland you can actually say we'll dump the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
parties of Government and we'll give the opposition a turn and had there | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
been a tsunami of support for that concept, then we could have come | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
very close to 24, but there wasn't. Yes. Some people have said that it | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
all went wrong for you during that interview in fact. That your | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
comments on Sunday Politics in which you confirmed you would be giving | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
your second preference to the SDLP rather than to thor unionist | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
ultimately cost you your job? There is no evidence of that and I would | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
like to see the evidence. No doubt in time as people reflect on the | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
election we will get to that point. So all I can talk about Mark is | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
anecdotal and that's not a firm foundation for opinion, but I was | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
campaigning in Strangford which is a particularly heavily Unionist | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
constituency and I would have said conservatively the reaction was | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
about three to one positive reaction to what I had said. And then you | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
look at one of the high casualty, high-profile casualties like Danny | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
Kennedy who polled over 7,000 votes, that's 2,000 more than I got in | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
strong ford and he didn't get elected, but it wasn't because of | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
what I said about the SDLP it was because of what Arlene Foster said | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
about republicans. That crocodile comment really did serve as a | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
lightening rod that incredibly energised nationalists and | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
republicans and that was the real quote of the election and the real | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
consequence was the result that put Sinn Fein just a seat behind the | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
DUP. It is fair to say, isn't it, not all your colleagues and indeed, | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
former colleagues agree with your analysis, Sam Gardener says in | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
today's Newsletter that that statement on Sunday Politics | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
amounted to political suicide. He said you have shown a lack of people | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
skills and Jo-Anne Dobson lost her seat and she says your comments cost | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
her that seat. She said it was a get out of jail card for the DUP? I'm | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
not going to wash the party's dirty linen in public. That's the position | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
we were in in 2012-I took over the leadership. If you look at the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
election results there was a highly energised nationalist and republican | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
vote. I did not energise a single one of those additional voters. So | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
just to be clear before we move on. You do not regret what you said | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
about transferring to the SDLP on Sunday Politics? No, what I said was | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
vote Ulster Unionist and vote for any candidate that you trust to do | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
the right thing, but on a personal basis because of the circumstances | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
you found myself in, living and voting in east Belfast and because | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
of the DUP candidate, who was being recommended to me for a preference, | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
that I could not do it because it would have been the height of | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
hypocrisy to do that and therefore, as a small gesture, I was going to | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
give a preference to a candidate who was never going to get enough votes | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
to qualify for any preferences because he went out in the first | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
round. Was the difficulty for you that members of your party didn't | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
understand exactly what it was that you were saying because you hadn't | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
prepared them for it? And also, on the other hand, Colum Eastwood | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
didn't reciprocate on the programme? I heard commentators saying he | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
didn't bring the party with him. There were some clues there, Mark, | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
party conference, I invited Colum Eastwood to come and speak. The | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
party gave him a standing ovation. Later in my remarks I said vote | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
Colm, get Mike to counterbalance the idea the them and us that was so | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
prevalent again on 2nd Marchment the clues were there. Our manifesto said | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
for a proper partnership. My message was a partnership of the winning, | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
not two parties the DUP and Sinn Fein who share that space at | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Stormont Castle not because they want to, but because the law says | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
they have to. I want to talk about mixed messaging. People have said | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
that the difficulty was that Ulster Unionist Party voters didn't know | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
what Mike Nesbitt and the Ulster Unionist Party stood for. You | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
referenced the vote Mike, vote Colm. When you took over five years, you | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
talked about a modern progressive unionism. Then we had this electoral | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
pact for the general election back in 2015. A lot of people don't know | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
what direction you were trying to take the party. Well, let's go back | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
to five years ago. I had only been in the party two years and I'd only | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
been elected a number of months when I became leader as Harold Macmillan | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
said you have to react to events and the events of the day, we were in | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
the mouth of the centenary of the covenant. So unionism was being very | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
reflective, it was quite inward looking at the time. There was a | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
concern about what the Parades Commission might do to the centenary | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
parade so people were looking to Peter Robinson and Mike Nesbitt to | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
stand shoulder-to-shoulder. It they were being nostalgic about united we | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
stand and divided we fall. I went with the flow, even though it might | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
have been counter-intuitive. Were you uncomfortable? That doesn't | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
appear to be modern, progressive unionism? My idea of progressive | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
modern unionism is unionism of partnership and what I dislike about | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
the DUP is that they are promoting a unionism of domination and so you | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
have the rogue and the renegade ministers. You have the crocodile | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
comment and that unionism of domination is a shortcut to a united | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Ireland. If we want the union to be safe, you've got to maximise the | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
number of people who are too busy making money, educating their | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
children, accessing a Health Service without having to pay for and all | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
the other benefits of the union. But what you're effectively saying, it | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
is Arlene Foster and the DUP's fault for Mike Nesbitt's failure as leader | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
of the Ulster Unionist Party, is that what you're saying? What I | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
believe in is a partnership of the winning and I see that as a moderate | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
way forward between the Ulster Unionists and the SDLP and I put | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
that to the electorate on two occasions, Mark. And on both | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
occasion they have voted or the alternative? I have gone out twice | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
in an Assembly saying let's make this Stormont's first ever post | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
sectarian election. Last May we really binged on policy, not just on | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
manifesto, but no fewer than eight policy documents and we didn't add a | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
single seat. I went out this time and said let's make it a post | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
sectarian election and we dropped seats. So I've nothing else to | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
offer. It is my only vision. That's not the direction that members of | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
the Ulster Unionist Party or Ulster Unionist voters want to go? But | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
you're selling them the wrong message. Do you accept that? No, we | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
put 18% on a first preference vote. Those are not the figures that | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
count. It does show you something in terms of people buying into the | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
message. Does that mean that Arlene Foster in your view is a credible | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
overall leader for unionism? My focus is on the Ulster Unionist | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
Party, we will shortly elect a new leader. That new leader will have my | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
100% support. I do hope and it will be no surprise to the new leader | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
that he or she continues with the idea of a coalition of the willing, | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
a moderate unionism and not this unionism of dom thation. Do you | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
believe that the future of unionism is safe in Arlene Foster's hands? | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
Arlene Foster may come back as First Minister. This is a matter for | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
speculation. I'm focussed on the Ulster Unionist Party. But there has | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
been a lot of talk since the election about the prospect of | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
closer relations within unionism and the prospect frankly of unionist | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
unity. How concerned are you that your successor, whoever that might | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
be, decides the way to move unionism and wants to build a closer | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
relationship between the UUP and the DUP and perhaps sees a better future | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
with unionism with those two parties merged? You've made references to | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
mixed messages as a negative and I get that, that's fair enough, but | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
let's look back to 2015 and the general election and I was reading a | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
couple of days ago one of the newspaper editorials was citing it | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
as possibly the finest example of unionist co-operation in the modern | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
era. The north Belfast, Fermanagh was my idea. It got expanded out to | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
four constituencies. What happened there, was incredibly mixed message | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
because we were co-operating with the DUP to try and win Fermanagh and | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
in south Antrim we were competing with them and took a seat off | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
William McCrea. Let's fast forward to 2017. A good idea or a bad idea? | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
Danny won south Antrim for the Ulster Unionist and Tom Elliott won | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
Fermanagh and south Tyrone. You're trying to ride two horses there. I'm | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
asking you to pick a horsement pick a horse. I don't have to. You don't | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
have to pick a horse? Danny won and Tom won on two different platforms, | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
competing and co-operating at the same time in the same election, we | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
competed and we also challenged the DUP. What do you think the future | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
holds for you now? Will you remain as a MLA for the full Assembly term? | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
Well, I was elected to serve the people of Strangford and I will do | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
that for those who voted for me, those who voted for others and those | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
who didn't vote at all and that was the position since I was elected. | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
You won't leave early? I have no intention of leaving early. There is | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
plenty I want to do both in terms of constituency projects and also | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
projects in terms of promoting unionism in this country. Any truth | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
in the rumour that you fancy the role of Speaker? I would think it | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
would be unlikely. Fair enough. What about a seat in the Lords? No. | :14:51. | :15:00. | |
Ruling that out. OK. Do you have any regrets about changing your career | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
path from well obviously journalism, you were a victims' commissioner to | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
going down the route of seeking elected office? I think, I'll not | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
bore you with the family history, but it is out there in speeches I've | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
made. There is a kind of path that explains going from sports reporter | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
to news to victims' to politics. And it's about trying to make this | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
country a better place for the next generation. Mike Nesbitt in | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
reflective mood earlier today. Shane Harrison in | :15:32. | :15:50. | |
Washington, thank you. Things are different this year. They | :15:51. | :16:01. | |
are very different because there is a new and very different president | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
it has to be said who is putting America first and who is making a | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
big play of issues such as the illegal or undocumented immigrants | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
and it is the first time in recent years that there has been a | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
reception without the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. At | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
breakfast the main speech was given by the head of the Civil Service who | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
painted an optimistic picture to the way the negotiations are going on at | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
Stormont. He seemed to be more hopeful than perhaps people might | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
think. Behind me, there is a reception going on. Just after the | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
presentation of the bowl of shamrock, Gerry Adams and Ian | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
Paisley are both present. Enda Kenny has been talking to | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
president Trump and he has been making the case forcefully for the | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
undocumented Irish? He has and he has been doing that all week at | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
various stages on his trip here in Philadelphia, in Boston and here in | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
Washington. He seems to be pushing for the idea that the Irish should | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
be getting some sort of special treatment, but I can tell you from | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
speaking to people on both sides of the House in Congress and indeed, | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
some senators that is not going to happen. If there is going to be a | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
deal, it's going to be for all the illegal immigrants. There are | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
estimated to be 11 million or so and only up to 50,000 of whom are Irish. | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
It's believed if the Irish were to get a separate deal it might be | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
construed as racist by some people. Of course, Enda Kenny, Shane, made | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
those comments at the Speaker's Lunch? Yes, he made the comments at | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
the Speaker's Lunch and the Speaker's Lunch is a very relaxed | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
affair. For example, the Speaker Paul Ryan made a speech in which he | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
said that the previous president liked to play golf, the current | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
president likes to own golf courses including one in Ireland! At the | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
Speaker's Lunch, again, there was Gerry Adams and there was Ian | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
Paisley. And after the Speaker's Lunch, I caught up with Gerry Adams | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
and asked about his call for there to be no direct rule from the | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
British if the negotiations don't progress quickly. There was some | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
suggestion if we don't get agreement between the parties that form the | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
executive that the British would bring back direct rule. I was merely | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
pointing out in 2006 the British allowed that to lapse for good and | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
made a commitment that they wouldn't legislate for the suspension of the | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
institutions. So we're holding them to that. What was supposed to | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
replace it was the Irish and British Governments co-operating in a | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
partnership along with the parties in the north and I would presume if | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
we get to the point where the British people they would reimpose | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
direct rule that the Irish Government would be compelled to | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
object. We don't envisage failure. Our resolve is to make this work, | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
but we need the institutions back in place on the terms that they were | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
established on. I don't know if you are aware of this, but the Taoiseach | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
in his conversation with reporters after his meeting with Trump and | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
they did speak about Northern Ireland, Mr Kenny told us that he | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
had said that there can be no return to hard borders and also, there can | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
be no return to direct rule. So are you reassured by that? Well, we need | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
action. The difficulty in terms of Brexit is that if the British | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
succeed in taking the north out of the European Union against the | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
wishes of the people there, then the European Union will decide how hard | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
the border is and I don't see there being anything other than a hard | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
economic border because that will be the fronter of the European part and | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
the non-European part. But are you reassured about his comments on | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
direct rule? But we need to do is to uphold the agreement which was made | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
in 2006. At the Northern Ireland breakfast this morning, there was no | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
First Minister or Deputy First Minister present, but Sir Malcolm | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
McKibbin gave a reasonably optimistic view of the way the talks | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
are going on and he like yourself is heading back to Ireland for the | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
resumption of those talks? I think it is true to say that the talks are | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
being conducted in a cordial manner between the parties who might form | :20:26. | :20:34. | |
an executive, but the issues that, I suppose, be devilled the | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
relationship, issues around rights and legacy issues which the British | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
Government is blocking and issues around rights for Irish speakers | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
need to be put in place. There can be no return to the status quo. You | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
will be at the reception in the White House. Many people in your | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
party will be dismayed by your presence there. What would you say | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
to them? Well, people in our party are entitled to their views on all | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
these issues. The fact is the St Patrick's Festival in the USA is | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
bigger than any president, and the time we are able to contact and | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
brief and inform our friends here. We heard that President Trump does | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
expect to visit Ireland sometime during his term of office? Yes, | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
that's correct. He was asked in the Oval Office today by a reporter did | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
he intend coming and he said yes, I love Ireland. I love Ireland. He | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
repeated it so to emphasise the point and the Taoiseach did say that | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
he had invited him. When Enda Kenny was asked in another interview did | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
he think that President Trump would get a good reception? The Taoiseach | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
said, yes, he thought he would, but I'm not too sure about that myself. | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
I guess we'll find out in due course. Shane, thank you very much | :22:01. | :22:01. | |
indeed. In Scotland Nicola Sturgeon | :22:02. | :22:15. | |
announced her bid for another independence referendum | :22:16. | :22:17. | |
while Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail have been setting out their plans | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
for securing a United Ireland. That prompted unionists to seek | :22:21. | :22:22. | |
assurances from the Prime Minister that a border poll doesn't feature | :22:23. | :22:24. | |
in her master plan. But what do unionists have | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
to fear from the idea? Enda McClafferty's been to Donegal | :22:28. | :22:29. | |
and his report begins with the descendant of a well-known | :22:30. | :22:31. | |
American folk hero. When it comes to living on the | :22:32. | :22:47. | |
frontier, this man is an expert and he's well named. Meet Davey | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
Crockett, not so much king of the wild fronter, but gatekeeper on the | :22:55. | :23:03. | |
Irish frontier. There used to be a gate to cross | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
here, but since 1922, 1923, the border came into being so then this | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
is the republic. We have sheep in the republic here and they're tagged | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
in the republic. We work with the department in the republic. We've | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
sheep in the north down here. You could say he has a foot in both | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
camps. So how would he feel if the border and his land disappeared and | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
he was living under Dublin rule? I would rather the border disappeared | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
and we were governed by London. I value the NHS in here. All right, it | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
has its critics, but it is better than we have out in the republic. | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
And therein lies the problem for Sinn Fein and others who are trying | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
to sell a united Ireland to unionists. How do they convince | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
people like Davey Crockett that life really would be better on the other | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
side of the fence? What about the experience of the Protestants who | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
already live in the republic? Do they see the benefits of a united | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
Ireland. . Attacks like this, two orange halls in Donegal were torched | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
by arsonists. Two years on, one has been repaired, the other still in | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
ruins. It is very unsettling one to try and understand that why it had | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
happened. We had actually had a group of ex-republican and loyalist | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
prisoners here as part of peace and reconciliation projects so we | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
thought we were being part of something of the greater good for | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
the whole island and all of a sudden we were targeted for no apparent | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
reason. The attack was widely condemned and the Orange Order got | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
offers of help from the local Catholic community including the use | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
of the nearby GAAhall. They received tens of thousands of pounds from the | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
Irish Government. So how would he feel a border poll? I'm a unionist. | :24:56. | :25:03. | |
I'm a relic of the empire. What has been left here after partition as a | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
unionist community living as I deem myself a unionist living within the | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
Republic of Ireland. Just a few miles away, the experience is very | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
differentment here at the Ulster Scots heritage centre, they | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
celebrate and educate both traditions. Any talk of the border | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
on the northern side injects my co religionists with fear. In contrast | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
you come over to east Donegal and the border is never mentioned. The | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
people that I minister to here are happy. Even though they are | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
Protestant. They're happy to identify as Irish citizens. And | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
that's what Ian McCracken discovered when he carried out research into | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
the thinking of Protestants along the border. Ian says he has never | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
experienced discrimination, but he has faced questions about his | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
identity. It's when you're asked are you Irish or are you British or what | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
is your identity that people begin to think about it and if they feel | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
there is a challenge, then it becomes an issue. So what do you | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
consider yourself then? Are you Irish or British? I consider myself | :26:17. | :26:24. | |
Irish. I've lived here, literally, all my life and I wouldn't have | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
thought of living anywhere else. For Davey Crockett, it is not about | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
politics. For him, it's simple economics. | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
I would vote to stay in Britain. The people that are in Northern Ireland | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
will vote for the nationalists until it comes to a vote for a border poll | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
and then economically they'll look, what do we see what way we're better | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
off? So we put that theory to the Des in Derry city centre. Would you | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
vote for a united Ireland right now? No. Why not? Because I don't think | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
they it is settled in the south. I'm happy with the way things are in the | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
country at the minute. So I don't see any reason for a border poll. I | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
would vote for a united Ireland. Why? The people would be far better | :27:12. | :27:20. | |
off. With a united Ireland than the way it is now. I would scrap | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
Stormont. Would you vote to join a united Ireland or stay in the UK? | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
Stay in the UK possibly. Why is that? Well, I mean the Government in | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
the Irish Republic at the minute isn't good either so I think we're | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
better with what we have. A border poll is not on the horizon just yet, | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
but it is unlikely to disappear in what will be a changing political | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
landscape post Brexit. Plenty to mull over | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
with our commentators and tonight we welcome the Irish News | :27:49. | :28:00. | |
correspondent, Allison Morris, for her first appearance | :28:01. | :28:02. | |
in the corner alongside the familiar Alex let's talk about the Mike | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
Nesbitt interview. He kept his counsel for two weeks almost since | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
he announced his resignation. Did he shed any light on his leadership and | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
what has made him tick over the past five years, do you think, in that | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
conversation? No, I don't think he did. I would have thought since this | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
was his first major interview since standing down, he would give some | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
reflective and this thing about the mixed messaging, when he talked | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
about giving his second preference to the SDLP, it was off the top of | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
his head and he hadn't discussed it with anyone. Within hours they were | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
asking Ulster Unionist candidates who were saying no, we're not doing | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
that, we're staying with the unionists. That became the mixed | :28:52. | :28:59. | |
message. He isn't aware, when it didn't have any effect, there were | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
people who were up until that minute were considering giving the Ulster | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
Unionist Party a vote when they saw the reaction from his party and | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
candidates... There is no evidence of that as he points out. That's | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
anecdotal? It is anecdotal, a lot of people said to me, I get it through | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
the columns and through e-mails and through my Twitter feed. A lot of | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
people said to me within hours of your interview he has lost. One of | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
the candidates phoned me half an hour later and said, "He has | :29:30. | :29:40. | |
probably cost me my seat." Allison he was saying I did my best | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
and there was a logic and he doesn't have any regrets? It was | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
fascinatingly dull that interview and what he wouldn't say. He's | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
continuing to blame Arlene Foster on the Ulster Unionist Party's defeat. | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
I think that at this point in time, the mark of a proper leader is | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
someone who will say, "I messed up and I take responsibility." But he | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
was batting it off to Arlene Foster. I think it clearly cost him votes | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
the SDLP remark, he said the guy he was transferring to had no chance of | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
ever getting elected. Why would you transfer to him? You may as well | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
throw your vote down a drain. I think that anyone who was a moderate | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
unionist and was thinking about transferring, went to the Alliance | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
Party. He is clearly not a fan of closer unionist unity and he was | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
critical there of Arlene Foster's comments, some of them during the | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
campaign, critical of the way in which the DUP does its business. He | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
doesn't like it. He talked about its unionism being based on domination | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
and he's not happy about that. So it's clear the direction of travel | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
they thinks the party should go in his absence. Is there any indication | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
that's what is going to happen? He didn't do that himself, Mark. He | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
talked about not liking the DUP, but back, he said I'm going with the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
flow back then with the Ulster covenance, I went with the flow | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
against my intuition and then he did the pact with the unionist forum | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
whiches involved the TUV and other people and he did other electoral | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
pacts. It goes back to the mixed message, you cannot say on the one | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
hand I don't like the DUP, but hey, here is a new form, here is a new | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
package, here is a new deal. The sort of people who might have been | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
interested in Nesbitt gave up from him by the middle of 2013 because | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
they realised this guy is not taking the party anywhere. He didn't want | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
to answer the question of how historians might judge him. How do | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
you think they will judge him? I don't think his career ended the way | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
he would have liked it to have ended. I think he was diplomatic and | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
holding back and he says he didn't want the job as Speaker, but you | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
have to wonder is he holding his counsel because you have to be | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
impartial to be Speaker and he has got his eye on that job. When I | :32:03. | :32:11. | |
asked him that question? He said he never thought about it. It has been | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
mentioned to me. He would be a good Speaker. Maybe Allison is right, | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
he's holding fire and didn't want to be too controversial and didn't want | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
to be attacking anyone. He could not have been clearer in the | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
conversation that we recorded and afterwards, he said he knew nothing | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
about the speculation of being Speaker. We'll find out on the 27th | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
of this month. Let's a have word a about Gerry Adams in Washington. | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
What did you make about what he had to say, the Irish Government is | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
compelled to oppose any return to direct rule? I'm horrified that | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
Gerry Adams is in Washington. The Trump leadership, there is nothing | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
to be gained from Sinn Fein being there. Given the fact that Trump's | :33:01. | :33:10. | |
first actions was to demonise women. I don't think he should be there. I | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
don'tnd stand his position if he's saying there is not going to be an | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
executive unless Arlene Foster is sidelined, but he doesn't want | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
direct rule either. There is no provision for this mythical thing | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
called joint authority. It doesn't exist in law. So I have no idea what | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
he wants, but I suspect they are close tore a deal than any of us | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
think. Gerry Adams point is that St Patrick's Day in Washington is | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
bigger than a Trump administration? Well, St Patrick, it is the patron | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
saint of Ireland, he could go to a St Patrick's Day event in Dublin. | :33:43. | :33:51. | |
The links between Sinn Fein and their supporters are strong enough. | :33:52. | :34:00. | |
That's it for The View. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35am on BBC | :34:01. | :34:01. | |
One. But in a week when Martina Anderson | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
captured the headlines with that Brexit speech in Strasbourg, | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
we thought we'd leave you with some So Theresa your notion of a border | :34:09. | :34:18. | |
hard or soft, stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Stick it. Stick it. | :34:19. | :34:29. | |
Why does this Government treat Alberta like a fart in the room. I | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
apologise now. And I stand by what I said. It was a falsehood that was a | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
lie. I have to order the honourable member to withdraw immediately. I | :34:43. | :34:51. | |
still refer to him as Dodgy Dave. Do what you like. | :34:52. | :34:55. |