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It's been an extraordinary day here in a city that has seen more | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
than its share of historic events as thousands of mourners lined | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
the streets of the Bogside to pay tribute to Martin McGuinness. | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
Tonight on The View we assess the complicated legacy of the former | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
IRA commander who became Deputy First Minister. | :00:17. | :00:39. | |
Hello and welcome to the walls of Derry. | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
We're overlooking the Bogside, which today saw extraordinary | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
scenes, as VIPs joined thousands of mourners to pay respects | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
to Martin McGuinness, the one-time IRA commander turned | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
A man with a disputed legacy - while some can never | :00:55. | :01:06. | |
forgive his IRA role, others saw him as a man | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
The former United States President Bill Clinton made the trip. | :01:09. | :01:29. | |
I spoke to him moments after he addressed those | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
Why is it so important to be here today? First of all... We spent a | :01:32. | :01:44. | |
long time together, when I was president. And I wanted to honour | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
him for what he did. War to peace. And to emphasise that it is one | :01:52. | :02:00. | |
thing to make peace, another to make it work. That is an endless process. | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
You have got work on that all the time. To and all these people, who | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
justifiably respect the fact that he changed war to peace, really | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
committing himself to the work that needs to be done. And you're | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
optimistic that the politicians listening in charge today are going | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
to take that message on board? I think so. This whole rise of | :02:26. | :02:35. | |
tribalism, all over the world, everything that is happening. Dutch | :02:36. | :02:44. | |
didn't go for it. And I think the reaction is beginning to set in. It | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
is not as though you can repeal interdependence. The debate is about | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
defining the terms of independence. If you believe that, then shrinking | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
the definition of us, them, that is not a good strategy. Still plenty of | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
things to debate about, how best do you trade, do immigration, | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
negotiation. That is basically what is at stake. And when it mattered, | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
Martin McGuinness made the correct decision. That was Bill Clinton | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
talking to me earlier. With me now to help unravel | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
the complicated figure that was Martin McGuinness | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
are Peter Sheridan of Co-Operation Ireland, | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
Denis Bradley who knew Martin McGuinness much | :03:36. | :03:36. | |
of his adult life, and the DUP This is the first time we've heard | :03:37. | :03:47. | |
from, Gregory, sense the death of Martin McGuinness. Why have you | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
broken the silence? Some people would say, why have I been silent, | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
rather than break it? But I think what many people would think of the | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
person who is deceased, the family, close friends, should be allowed | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
some time to grieve, and bury their loved one. I imposed this | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
self-imposed silence, until after the funeral. That is why I have not | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
spoken about any of these matters, until now, despite numerous | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
requests. Arlene Foster was applauded by members of the | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
congregation when she entered the church for the service today. Do you | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
applaud her, for attending the funeral today? I think these are | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
matters of conscience for the individual. I would not criticise | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
anyone for going privately to the, publicly to the funeral service, | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
signing the book of condolence, just as I hope nobody would criticise | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
those who choose not to do those things. Do you think she did the | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
correct thing, attending today? I think it was her choice. But I am | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
asking you. I think it was her choice. Just as I would not have | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
criticised her she had not gone, I am not going to criticise her for | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
going. You talked about the complicated legacy, and we should | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
look at the two aspects of Martin McGuinness. The last ten, 15 years, | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
it is undoubtedly the case that he had done much to promote politics, | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
promoting peace, trying to make progress for Northern Ireland. You | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
recognise that? I do recognise that. But what we must not do, ignore the | :05:38. | :05:48. | |
first 25 years of his life, walls on Londonderry now, west bank. And when | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
Martin McGuinness joined the IRA, thousands upon thousands fled the | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
city as a result of the actions of Martin McGuinness. But you do except | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
that was in the past. He could have been involved in the Troubles, an | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
active member of the IRA, many years ago, nonetheless he contributed very | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
significantly to the peace process for Northern Ireland. That is what | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
Bill Clinton said. I recognise that and I recognise that 15 years ago. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
We all moved. But what we must not allow to happen, we must not allow | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
the rerating of the past. When we talk about building the peace | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
process, and the past five years for example, the progress that has been | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
made, unfortunately even when it came to the very end, when Martin | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
McGuinness was resigned as Deputy First Minister, very ill. And we | :06:45. | :06:53. | |
could see that he was very ill. The final interview, when he was asked | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
if he regretted any of the actions that he took part in, he said he | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
regretted not of that. That unfortunately for me, it is a sad | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
indictment of Martin McGuinness. Does that unpick the positive | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
aspects of his legacy? I think that for the complicates the picture, | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
even after 25 years of peace, being lauded as a statesman, he cannot say | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
that he regrets the violence, the murder, human bomb, all of that. But | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
it is a complicated picture and we have to acknowledge what steps have | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
been made, but we must not lose sight of the fact we only need of | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the peace process because of people like Martin McGuinness. Can you | :07:43. | :07:53. | |
square that circle for Gregory? I do not know if I can do that for | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Gregory, but you have got the rerating of history, I was actually | :07:58. | :08:06. | |
there when some of Gregory's co religionists left a street near | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
here. The movement of the Protestant people. I knew Martin McGuinness at | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
that time. He was not the leader of the IRA, he was involved with | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
people, beginning to become some kind of leadership. I think it is | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
terribly wrong, historically it is wrong, politically, to personalise | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
these matters to the point when you talk about Martin McGuinness did | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
that, this, that. The truth of the matter, politically we are divided | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
society, we have been for centuries and we need to come together | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
politically to get past these things. If you put all that on | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, Queen, Margaret Thatcher, you're | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
missing the point. And Gregory, I think you always miss the point. You | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
always end up blaming Martin McGuinness, some leader of England | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
for that, we have known that for decades. What we need to know now, | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
how we solve that. And if you personalise that to this degree, | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
beyond the point of people making a choice, of course they made the | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
choice, but if you personalise it beyond that then you miss the core | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
of how you actively achieve political reconciliation. The issue | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
is this, when Martin McGuinness and I were both similar age growing up, | :09:33. | :09:41. | |
I faced the same discrimination, but I was not taking up a gun. Did not | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
murder. You may have felt marginalised, but it was different. | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
My family, friends, all intimidated. That is in the past. I agree with | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
Dennis. But the problem that we had, even when Martin McGuinness and | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
others, who had moved, and directly based on knowledge the move at the | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
time, and I have done so since on numerous occasions... Whenever they | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
were asked about the numerous individual instances, Gillespie, the | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
two policeman gunned down here three days before bloody Sunday, every | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
single instance Martin McGuinness said that he knew nothing about it. | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
Denial. Denial. Denial. Can I just say... You're in danger of raising | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
some victim expectations. This thing about Martin McGuinness went to | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
date. You do not understand, the IRA worked in sales. Martin McGuinness | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
may not have known anything. About anything? Everything that I asked of | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
it, he said he did not know anything. You have got the right to | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
complain about that, but do not release the expectations of victims. | :11:04. | :11:13. | |
The Sinn Fein party, all the other parties, failed to grasp how to deal | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
with the past. You were told ten years ago, still working with that | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
and you have not dealt with that. I want to bring Peter in. We have | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
talked about the past and we want to talk about the future. You want to | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
build reconciliation, in a debate community, working towards a more | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
positive future. But in a previous life, you were also police commander | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
in the city. It is possible, is it not, some of those people close to | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
Martin McGuinness with an Republican circles may have been planning to | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
kill you? How do you feel about attending the funeral today? I did | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
not know Martin McGuinness throughout the opening 20 years of | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
his life, growing up in poverty. I did not know that. I knew about him | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
in the next 20 years, when he took to violence, as a way of dealing | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
with rage, anger, those things that he saw us wrong. But I got to know | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
him, in the last 20 years of his life, when he was dealing with the | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
peace process, and I got to know him, like Ian Paisley, Arlene | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
Foster, Peter Robinson, I think those people who knew him, came to | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
the conclusion that he was genuine and what he was trying to do. And as | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
an organisation Corporation, he was supportive of all the work that we | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
are trying to do, both within Northern Ireland, building | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
reconciliation. Did you absolutely believe him when | :12:49. | :12:58. | |
he talked about those issues with you? Do you think he had had an | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
absolute conversion away from his violent past towards a peaceful and | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
better future? I think when you see the people who turned up today, who | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
knew him, not that they knew of him like I did in the first 20 years, | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
but knew him, once you knew him, I think you recognised he was genuine. | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
Do you think that Gregory Campbell might have a different view of | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
Martin McGuinness tonight if he had been in a position to get to know | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
him? A lot of people have said that actually there was a personal | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
warmth, and when you got to know him, he was persuasive and he could | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
convince you that he actually had changed and was working for a better | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
future. I am not naive about those 20 years, that middle 20 years. I | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
was a police officer for 32 years. I saw too many horrific events in the | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
city, not to be anything other than naive around this. When I got to | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
know the person, I genuinely... And I don't know, but maybe if Chen -- | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
Gregory got a home, I don't know, but maybe he would have thought | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
differently about him. But I had that ability, through faith I got | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
the ability to know him in the last 20 years. Gregory, you never shook | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
his hand, is that right? Had you sat in a room and talked to him? Yes, | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
many years ago. But did you shake hands with him? Know. Was that a | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
deliberate move? Probably, yes. Was that because of a concerned that if | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
you had done that, he might have one year over? Do you regret today that | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
you did not make the effort to get to know the man who Bill Clinton and | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
Arlene Foster spoke about in the last few days? I know that a man who | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
involved himself deeply in a peace process wouldn't have had to do that | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
if he himself had not provided the violence that required the peace | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
process in the first place. I do not care who is content with that, or | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
angry with that. Because that is the reality. The challenge is that three | :15:25. | :15:32. | |
senior members of the DUP, two of them former leaders, Ian Paisley who | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
became a personal friend, Peter Robinson who said today their | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
relationship went beyond friendship, and he thought he was in a better | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
position to judge him than anyone else, and today Arlene Foster, they | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
were persuaded by him. You are out of step with the leadership of your | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
own party. Does that court caused a problem? I am not out of step. All | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
of those leaders knew that they had to make progress for the greater | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
good of everybody in Northern Ireland. Our own community, the | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
nationalist community, and those who would not describe themselves as | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
either. I am as committed to doing that as everyone else. But in doing | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
that, and this is the point, it is not either or, in doing that I will | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
not allow the past to be rewritten. Nobody will obliterate the past. In | :16:22. | :16:29. | |
that middle 20 years, I took one path, Martin McGuinness took | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
another. Him and I could never reconcile those just -- two separate | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
paths. But we were able to accept that the other person had a story. I | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
did not agree with his story, I did not say it was right. Martin | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
McGuinness would never say my story was right. But both of us accepted | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
that each other had a story, in the interests of the next generation, to | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
make this a better place. Denis Bradley, you officiated at Martin | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
McGuinness's wedding many years ago. A lot of water has flowed under the | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
bridge since then. How would you sum up the mood in this city today? We | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
saw a lot of people on the streets paying their respects, we saw | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
spontaneous and warm applause for Arlene Foster when she entered their | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
church. In a minute or so, just give me your sense of the significance of | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
what happened in this place today. I think that the thousands of people | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
were on the street because they recognise Martin not as -- not just | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
as the person who was in the IRA, but the person who got rid of the | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
IRA. Because people are sensible enough to know that only a real | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
insider can get rid of an organisation. And Martin was that | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
person. He wasn't the only person, but he was very, very big in that. | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
On the other hand, I think the warm applause is from what I would call | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
rural Northern Ireland and from the city, this city. I think that was | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
the main focal congregation today, and they were saying, we wish you | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
well, we want you to be part of the negotiations, we want you to reach | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
out and we want to reach out to you. I'd I think that actually his | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
legacy, I don't like the word, but his legacy may be in death he made | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
it easier for Arlene and even for Gregory hopefully in the future, to | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
actually begin to get past this personalisation of "You are the | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
devil and I am not the devil." Both of us are either good people or else | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
we are terribly bad people, but we need to reach out to each other | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
because of our politics and because of our past, and that is the real | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
history and the real truth. Gregory, briefly, do you accept that? We have | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
to make progress. And that involves compromise. Yes, and that compromise | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
will undoubtedly be required next month, next year... Your macro must | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
complete it not allowing anyone to try to betray themselves or those | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
who passed away as saints, when they were anything but. That will not be | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
allowed to happen, no matter what anyone says. Not well there are many | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
of us still to remind them of what happened. We have got a Bill beyond | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
that and make sure we never, ever go back to those days. -- we have got | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
to build beyond that. Final sentence, Peter Sheridan. Well, I | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
think that the last third of his life was that time he made that | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
transition, that difference. There are 1000 people alive today because | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
of the Good Friday Agreement and all of those efforts. That is the bit I | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
would prefer to remember. Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed for | :19:48. | :19:48. | |
joining us tonight. When President Clinton | :19:49. | :19:50. | |
addressed the congregation, he made a clear plea | :19:51. | :19:51. | |
to the politicians Just minutes later I spoke to | :19:52. | :19:53. | |
the former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, and asked him for his reaction | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
to that message. That was the simple and direct | :19:58. | :20:11. | |
message that, you know, people who have the obligation to follow on and | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
finish it. That was the message from the president. And when you saw | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
Arlene Foster and Peter Robinson there, what did you think? I'm | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
delighted they were there and delighted also at the reception they | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
got from the people here in Derry. I think, you know, there is no doubt | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
about it, people just want positive things in their life, they want | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
positive progress. They want people to move on, and move on from the | :20:42. | :20:55. | |
past. What would you say to those individuals who struggle with Martin | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
McGuinness's Path, who cannot see beyond that? And have been critical | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
in what they have said in recent days? -- Martin McGuinness's past. I | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
understand that. I spent many long hours and days and weeks talking to | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
the families of those who suffered violence, I always made a point of | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
meeting those from every walk of life, whether they were relatives of | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
British soldiers or former RUC officers or innocent nationalists or | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
whoever. And I always made a point of meeting and talking to them. So I | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
understand the hurt and the pain. You never forget, nobody's asking | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
anyone to forget. We are asking them to forgive, to allow a fair way to | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
the future. Just finally, with Martin McGuinness no longer playing | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
a part in the political process here, and with politics in Northern | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
Ireland that such a delicate stage, as the weekend approaches and | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
Monday's deadline is nearly upon us, are you optimistic that outstanding | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
issues can be resolved? I am, and I'm not directly involved but I do | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
not -- understand these issues inside out. To be frank, there are | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
not many issues to be resolved. I think what is necessary to resolve | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
is that everyone is committed wholeheartedly, 100% committed, to | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
the argumentation of it all. There may be one or two issues around, | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
current issues, but we got around far bigger things in the scale of | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
things, these are not insurmountable. I mean, what are the | :22:48. | :22:57. | |
alternatives? Direct rule? I don't think anyone wants that. Another | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
election? It would be insanity. More procrastination? Useless, time | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
wasting. The best thing is, do it. Bertie Ahern. | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
Well, the former First Minister of Scotland Alex Salmond held office | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
in Edinburgh at the same time as Martin McGuinness | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
I asked him what sort of professional and personal | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
relationship he had with Martin McGuinness. | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
I got to know him when I became First Minister in 2007, and Ian | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
Paisley had moved in as First Minister, Martin as deputy. And I | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
got -- I had known Ian for donkey's years before that, but I got to know | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
Martin really well, and of course Martin was one of these people, as | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
soon as you got to know him, he was a joy. I don't know anybody who met | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
Martin who did not think better of him after they had met him. And I | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
suppose... I think both of them thought that there were things we | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
could do, because obviously I am a Scottish Presbyterian so I | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
understand the traditions of Northern Ireland, also I am a | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
Scottish nationalist, but I remember once when I did a speech to the | :24:11. | :24:21. | |
Senate instalment. And I was making pains not to upset anyone, but we | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
had this great salvation of Celtic culture, and Scots - Irish culture, | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
and in the Great Hall where we were sitting, they came in a pipe band to | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
represent the Celtic culture and a flute band to represent the Scots | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
culture. At that stage I may not have shaken hands with him in public | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
before, and I said, why don't we get a picture with the drum? Our get the | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
drum, and you get a drumstick in -- on either side. Fabulous picture. | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
They were game, both of them, understanding the significance of | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
beating the drum together. And the message it sent about accommodating | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
the different strands and traditions of Northern Ireland. And you know, | :25:12. | :25:21. | |
if I could be at all helpful to that process, they were very willing. It | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
was a remarkable leap of faith -- faith, and the optimism of ten years | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
ago is with us still. Martin McGuinness was to many | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
people a divisive figure, someone linked inextricably | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
to the IRA. At the same time, he had | :25:36. | :25:36. | |
deep religious faith. With me now to look at those | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
apparent contradictions, the Catholic Bishop of Derry, | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
Dr Donal McKeown, and the former You are both very welcome to | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
programme. Bishop, you presided at today's Requiem Mass. What did you | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
make of who was there, and what we said? I have been here in Derry for | :25:56. | :26:03. | |
three years, and what I have experienced in that short period of | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
time after being in Belfast is a city that has been able to find | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
peace in itself. I have been at the burning of Lundy, with the | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
apprentice boys, and nobody uttered a word about presidents there. It is | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
also a city that has come through many difficult time and seems to | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
have found ways to handle bereavements, tragedies, death. I | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
think it is a city with some sense of being together, and I think this | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
is one more example of the ability to handle another big event and do | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
it in a very understated, competent way. It is a city trying to find | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
narratives about the past that will enable it to spring into the future | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
rather than being dragged back constantly into an old story that is | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
going round in circles. Gregory Campbell told they're about his | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
concerns about Martin McGuinness being eulogised and lionised. Do you | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
understand that? Of course, I was talking to a Catholic family | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
yesterday, who these past two days were just suddenly swamped again by | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
feelings about their own loss for 40 years ago at the hands of the IRA. | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
So of course I recognise where people are, but I think we are | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
living in a context where there are competing narratives, and what | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
Martin McGuinness showed was that only by talking to other people and | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
hearing their narratives, could we find some way to create a way | :27:27. | :27:28. | |
forward. Why did you want to attend the | :27:29. | :27:41. | |
Martin McGuinness's funeral service? I became involved in the peace work, | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
as a result of seeing people close to me suffer from violence, and | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
because of those injuries and wounds, I saw death. I mean a | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
deliberate decision in my life that I would be working for peace, and | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
part of that is trying to talk to people, so for 20 years I have been | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
in touch with Martin, and we have not been meeting regularly, but we | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
have been meeting consistently. That has given me the opportunity to | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
challenge him. One of the meetings was after the ceasefire, with a lot | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
of animosity from the Unionist Protestant community, but we | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
engaged, and we challenged, and we tried to take apart any sort of | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
sense that he had not contributed to the Troubles, and this went on, and | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
I was able to ask questions about the Good Friday agreement. I said, | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
Martin, in the back of your head, the top, the front, are you ever | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
going to go back to violence if you do not get what you want, and he | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
said I thought you would have known me better. I was not sure what that | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
meant, but they took that positively, and since that it was | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
confirmed. But some people believe it was not enough regret, I spoke to | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
one victim of the Troubles, who said he will never look at Martin | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
McGuinness as anything other than an unrepentant terrorist. He cannot get | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
past his past. That is a position that you have got to respect. You | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
have got to respect those views. I have been working with some from | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
Loyalist backgrounds, and Republican backgrounds, I have tried to not | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
travelling towards choosing to live the violence free life, becoming | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
more inclusive. What I have discovered with people, if you keep | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
ringing up the past, you undermine the capacity to embrace a new | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
future. With Martin McGuinness, he had good commitments. Everybody | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
knows that. And he was deeply committed to militant republican but | :30:02. | :30:10. | |
then he moved to a deep commitment to peace and reconciliation. As a | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
Christian, it is not always people just talking to me, changing my | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
mind, even what they are thinking, but I watch their feet, the | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
direction, and he gave up the belief of that armed struggle because it | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
had lost its appeal to him. But once he embraced peace and | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
reconciliation, he carried that to his grave. He took a lot of other | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
things, but he had passion for this country that should be flourishing | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
for everybody. I am here to express my condolences to the family, but | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
also appreciate that people can change, and as a result of that, I | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
give him the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, were you surprised that | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
Arlene Foster got such a warm reception when she entered the | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
church behind us this afternoon? I was delighted that happened, but | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
having been here for three years, I was not terribly surprised. You have | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
got graciousness in this city, people wanting to work together, and | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
that sort of response cannot be faked. I was delighted that | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
happened, and the credit it is going to give to the discussions at | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
Stormont, but there was no surprised after spending time in this city. | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
People want to create a better future. Forgiving people, in many | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
ways. In all the tributes | :31:41. | :31:42. | |
to Martin McGuinness, a recurring theme has been his love | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
of the poetry of Seamus Heaney. He was a big fan of | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
the Nobel Laureate, and Martin McGuinness often | :31:50. | :31:51. | |
quoted him during his speeches. As Education Minister | :31:52. | :31:53. | |
and Deputy First Minister, he met A number of them have been | :31:54. | :31:55. | |
reflecting on his life and legacy, with our political correspondent | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
Stephen Walker. In the story of Martin McGuinness, | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
this building has a special place. This is the later where Martin | :32:11. | :32:22. | |
McGuinness met the Queen. He felt comfortable here, and his love of | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
Seamus Heaney and Portree meant that he spent a lot of time year. Many | :32:26. | :32:35. | |
boards were his friends. When I learned several weeks ago that he | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
was extremely ill, I was upset. And I wrote him a letter. And I thanked | :32:41. | :32:49. | |
him for the grease and generosity of spirit that he had brought to the | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
position of deputy Frost Minister. And I think I said that he was more | :32:54. | :33:04. | |
than we deserve. And I said, it is something, I believed that it could | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
not have been a peace process without Martin McGuinness. Michael | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
Longley was also present when art and McGuinness met the Queen. I | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
think she responded to the fact that he was unaffected. Straightforward. | :33:23. | :33:33. | |
And sincere in his wish to shake hands, in that symbolic way. I think | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
she was impressed by the symbolism of the occasion. Also, Glenn | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
Patterson, director of the Seamus Heaney Centre, make Martin | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
McGuinness on numerous occasions. Probably, I met him more often than | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
any other politician over the years. I remember one occasion, at an arts | :33:55. | :34:05. | |
Council conference, and he got out at one -- a poem of his own. Read | :34:06. | :34:15. | |
it! Brave! I am told that is not the only occasion that he produced and | :34:16. | :34:25. | |
rock to poems of his own. This journalist was at Queens University | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
and is corruptly working on a book about the Sinn Fein president Gerry | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
Adams. How does he think the former Deputy First Minister should be | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
judged? The funeral is over. We have to be realistic. The historical | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
record, that is optical parted, ruthless determined researchers, | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
historians, academics. Let them get the story right. What will the | :34:51. | :35:00. | |
political landscape look like? Sinn Fein have lost a leader, and someone | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
who was central to the party. Lost probably the greatest figure that | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
the Irish Republic and movement ever had. Nobody coming up to replace | :35:10. | :35:18. | |
them. Not in the south, or. Gap at the leadership of Sinn Fein, very | :35:19. | :35:28. | |
much as the day you pay after -- DUP after Ian Paisley. It is difficult | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
to imagine political life without Martin McGuinness part we have got | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
to. The desire for change has been a constant theme, just as it was with | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
Seamus Heaney. People themselves must change. They must crawl out of | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
their history. Historians will argue about the legacy of Martin | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
McGuinness, the story that began in his home city and ended there today. | :35:56. | :36:07. | |
I am joined by the journalist Susan McKay. Susan, you are from the city. | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
You wrote the well-received book about Northern Protestants. You | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
decided to come to the funeral. Why do you want to be here? I thought it | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
was important, as somebody from Derry, to have been here. I would | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
have shaken Martin McGuinness's has, in the city, when to do that as a | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
Protestant, was to invite trouble from people like Gregory Campbell. I | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
was dismayed by what Gregory said. I made it my business as afternoon | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
after the funeral to go and talk to a number of people from the | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
Protestant community. Generally, it was a consolidator rescinds, sorrow, | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
a lot of Protestant people say to me that the pot Martin McGuinness had | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
changed, and made good change. I think it is really important that we | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
looked at the fact that for example during the fight that during the | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
ceremonies, many things were quartered. And the passage about a | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
time for more, please. A lot of warfare, perpetrated by the Unionist | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
community. And the duty was associated in the past with loyalist | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
paramilitary. It is not just one-sided, it is not just Martin | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
McGuinness who has a past of violence and it is more important to | :37:36. | :37:43. | |
look at where we go now, rather than looking back to something that | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
neither of the DUP and Sinn Fein has acted credibly. The DUP would say it | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
has never supported paramilitary is. Ian Paisley has been clear about | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
that. Closely associated with loyalist paramilitaries, much | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
evidence of that. But today is a dignified death for Derry. What did | :38:03. | :38:11. | |
you make of today? I think it was very dignified. A lot of respect. | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
People behaved in a completely dignified way. And the importance of | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
Arlene Foster to come here, it cannot have been an easy decision, I | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
am sure she was filled with apprehension, but the rapture that | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
she received, she was mentioned three times, the warmth to which she | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
was received, people shaking her hand. That symbolically as | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
important. Game changer? I do not know but it changes the mood, going | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
to go into talks in a completely different context, and it is | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
important, and I think she has been the subject of a great deal of | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
criticism but today she got the warm welcome. It is important to | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
acknowledge that. I think that if she had not come to date would have | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
been absolutely outrageous. It makes it difficult for the DUP with | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
another election, because they did that on the basis of the bogey men. | :39:07. | :39:18. | |
Reconciliation was the scene today. And you have got the thirst in this | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
community. People do not want to dwell on the past. | :39:24. | :39:24. | |
That's it from The View this Thursday night. | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
Join me for Sunday Politics, at 11.35 here on BBC One. | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
For now though, from the walls of Derry, goodnight. | :39:33. | :39:41. |