Browse content similar to 27/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Political pacts - for some parties, they come at too high a price. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
For others, there could still be capital to made out of doing a deal. | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
Tonight - can a pact ever work positively? | :00:09. | :00:32. | |
We'll hear from the SDLP, the party that wanted one, | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
and the Alliance Party, which says pacts are | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
The UUP and the DUP have had pacts in the past, of course - | :00:39. | :00:49. | |
but will they be able to agree one this time in a constituency | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Unionists have been attempting the pack game for years but they | :00:53. | :01:08. | |
continue to play. -- the pact game. And miss. | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
Plus - deepening divisions on dealing with the past. | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
As a Westminister committee recommends that soliders who served | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
here during the Troubles should be protected from future | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
prosecutions, we'll hear from the DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
And with their thoughts on that and more, Fionnuala O Connor | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
and Alex Kane are back in Commentators' Corner. | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
No sooner had Theresa May taken everyone by surprise | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
on Easter Tuesday with her announcement of a general election, | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
than talk of political pacts here took off. | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
On one side are the DUP and the Ulster Unionists who've met | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
once, but so far there's been no word of a deal. | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
On the other side, the proposed pro-Remain alliance - | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
though that looks like it could be dead in the water already. | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
Gareth Gordon took himself off to South Belfast, | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
a constituency where both pacts are - or certainly | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
It is hep, happening and the fate in places and very diverse but when it | :01:54. | :02:15. | |
came to elections, once South Belfast moved in one direction. The | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
official Unionist is the man to beat. He is altogether more | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
conventional in both religion and politics. His party decided that | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
they kindly are changing. A car accident no longer tells the story | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
of this constituency. He wasn't kidding. When Martin Smith stood | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
down 12 years ago, Alistair MacDonald broke the mould for | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
nationalism and he has held on a lot more comfortably than Unionists | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
would like ever since. And that is at least partly because they keep | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
getting in each other's way, something these boulders in south | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
Belfast know all about. Unionists have been trying to perfect the game | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
of pacts in south Belfast for years, but they continue to play and miss. | :03:07. | :03:16. | |
In the CRA, it sounds quite simple. I agree on strong candidate, give | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
them a clear run and they will knock the former SDLP leader out of the | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
way and reclaim the seat for unionism, but they haven't so far | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
been able to agree with that candidates should be or what party | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
they should belong to, and things looked less than promising this time | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
as well. Whether there is room for anything else, certainly we at the | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
moment are looking for candidates in relation to South Belfast and that | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
is a position at this point in time, and I think I can give you an | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
exclusive, it will not be me. At this exchange the man who stood for | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
the Ulster Unionist Party this time encounters a voter who believed a | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
unionist pact existed. This time Robbie McEwen will watch on from his | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
new home in Singapore. I am more likely to be contesting their | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
selection than Jonathan Bell of the two a contested at last time and I | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
am not going to be contesting, so neither party has an obvious | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
candidate in terms of someone in the constituency who would expect to do | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
well and has a chance of unseating an incumbent which is always a | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
challenge in Westminster elections, so there will be some thought that | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
goes into it. One thought that crossed my mind is somebody like | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
Danny Kennedy. I think he has that broader appeal and if you have an | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
Ulster Unionist Party did it where you have the DUP stand aside, it has | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
to be someone who can get that thought out as well. The bowlers are | :04:46. | :04:56. | |
not fans of pacts. It is divisive, as under them, a unionist group | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
joining with another or our national prescription joining with another. | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
It'll be polarising, more than it has been, because there's so aggro | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
between the parties, it is better. It is in this country. At times they | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
have been used to make sure that someone from the other party, where | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
the Unionists join together to make sure she didn't get back in, and I | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
don't think it is a very good idea. Alistair MacDonald says he doesn't | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
fear a unionist pact even if one happens. The SDLP has been the | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
dominant party in this constituency and I have 13-mac Times and the | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
people said it was impossible in 2005 and even in 2010 and then said | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
it couldn't happen a time and then it happened three times. Are you | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
going to win fourth time? Yes. You were selected very early and you had | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
your posters up before almost anyone else, was back in case the party | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
changed its mind? It certainly wasn't. I am happy to get on the go | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
and I work with a small but formidable team of people and we | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
wrote round the door is and I am out with them talking to them and I am | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
driven by the people or around me. The constituency was often talked | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
about for an anti-Brexit Alliance party candidate although the Green | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
party eventually objected to Mr McDonnell. The Green Party were | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
never going to be a serious player in any of the politics year. They | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
have a couple of rules but they are not going to be a big player. I have | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
been personally insulted and personally attacked over 40 years | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
and I will not take that seriously. Meanwhile, he and we await to see | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
what South Belfast does next. This once predictable constituency is now | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
anything but. The political temperature in South | :07:02. | :07:17. | |
Belfast and with me now, are the Alliance leader, Naomi Long, and the | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
SDLP's Nichola Mallon.. You have been confirmed tonight is your | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
party's candidate in east Belfast. Are you believed an agreed unionist | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
candidate looks unlikely at this stage? From my perspective, it was | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
always about running a positive campaign, that is what we did in | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
2010 when we won and in 2015 when we narrowly lost and that is what we | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
will be doing this time, because I believe we should be giving people | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
something to vote for, not trying to get them to vote against something | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
and that is fundamental to the way we change politics. You are not a | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
fan of pacts because they work against your party in places like | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
East Belfast? I think they deny the voters choice and this is the one | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
opportunity to decide who is going to represent them for the next five | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
years, and if we set behind closed doors and decide which party and | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
which candidate will run then we are already taking the choice away from | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
voters and the voters don't like it. I don't think it is the way we | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
should do politics and we should put up and are of candidates and trust | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
the voters because what you will find as they will make their own | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
decisions and a lot of the time votes will shift to other parties | :08:28. | :08:29. | |
during a first past the post election because they make a | :08:30. | :08:45. | |
judgment as to who is most likely to win and they will back the candidate | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
on the basis that is who they would prefer, and I think that is by now | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
what politics is about, when you give people the option to vote for a | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
positive message. Your party leader has criticised the Alliance Party | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
for a statement it released about pacts yesterday. Why is the SDLP so | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
sensitive on the subject?. I wouldn't see the SDLP is sensitive. | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
We have to be mindful why Theresa May has called this election. It is | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
to reinforce her hand for a hard Brexit and to decimate any | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
opposition. The SDLP said was open to discussions around a broad-based | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
Remain coalition and we reached out across political parties and said we | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
were up around a agreed Remain candidates, and we were doing that | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
because we believe it is in the best interests of people in Northern | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
Ireland who voted in a majority to remain. And they want to protect | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
them. You believe Alliance was too quick to level the charge of | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
sectarianism. Why? To be honest, we found that accusation deeply | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
offensive. It is possible to be a nationalist and anti-Brexit and | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
anti-sectarian and we were not interested in sectarian pacts, but | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
what were interested in was a broad-based coalition and Alliance | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
dismissed that quickly out of hand. We engaged in a conversation with | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
the Green Party and they had a now and we had any situation where we | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
are still open to conversations around agreed candidates and if that | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
doesn't work we will be standing. Why did that happen given that | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
explanation? It wasn't just Alliance. Margaret Ritchie described | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
the pact in sectarian when put forward by Sinn Fein. This was a | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
couple of weeks ago, when Margaret Ritchie spoke she said the SDLP | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
don't do pacts, so it is not just the Alliance party, at the time the | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
SDLP thought they didn't either but what happened in this case and since | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
2010 as Sinn Fein have held at the opportunity for some kind of pact, | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
particularly around South Belfast, and they did this in 2010 and then | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
refresh the idea around 2015 and then called for a Progressive | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
Alliance, the term they used, and this time it has become an | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
anti-Brexit pact, but at the core of it it is about two Nationalist | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
parties coming together, neither of which bulked up the idea that a | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
unionist pact was sectarian yet seemed outraged that anyone suggest | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
the two nationalist parties doing the same thing. It is not | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
nationalism that is sectarian because I think this is being taken | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
out of context. Just because you a nationalist doesn't mean you are | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
sectarian, or a unionist sectarian, but if you're going to ally that | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
politics around that in question when it is not what is on the ballot | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
paper, then that becomes sectarian in the context of Northern Ireland. | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
You say that but the statement issued in your party's name said, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
the Green Party is now tainted from chasing a nationalist pact and | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
pushing several constituencies into a sectarian headcount. Absolutely. | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
You stand over that? I do stand over that and I didn't issue the | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
statement sort is not the worst I would have used, but it is accurate | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
in its content and if you listen to the euro package, the public would | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
have seen it as a sectarian pact, and they would have seen, take South | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
Belfast. At the start of the package we spoke about it being a united and | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
diverse constituency and spoke about that dynamic, and what we would end | :12:22. | :12:34. | |
up with as big unionist versus big nationalist and a stand-off in a | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
constituency that should be inclusive. | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
Does that satisfy you? No, it was an Alliance Party statement and we | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
found it very aggressive. Does it help that she say she would not | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
necessarily use of language? Yes, I welcome that. The party put out that | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
statement and used that line which. The SDLP was clear that we would not | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
enter sectarian pacts. We have been clear that pan nationalism is not an | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
ideal of the SDLP. We think that it does nationalism greater harm, | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
because it backs Unionism into a corner. Colum Eastwood was very | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
clear from the start. Unfortunately, people didn't listen to what he was | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
saying, they took an interpretation and run with it. I don't know how | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
many times they have to make it clear. This was about a broad-based | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
Remain coalition involving parties across the political divide and | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
right across the community. The one sitting Unionist MP who happens to | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
be in favour of Remain was not even approached about a pact. Sylvia | :13:39. | :13:49. | |
Harman, the obvious go to unionist, was not approached. The DUP and | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
Ulster Unionists already in talks about the pact. Do you really think | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
that Alliance would have been wise to become a figleaf for what was | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
essentially going to be a nationalist pact? There is no sense | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
in that. What I think would have been helpful is for people to have | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
the space and willingness to have a conversation around it. I can tell | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
you that Colum Eastwood was genuine and what he was offering. It was not | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
a figleaf, not a sham, not dressed about anything than what it actually | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
is. That is a coalition to protect the democratically expressed wishes | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
of the people of Northern Ireland, which is to remain within the EU. | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
Which has nothing to do with holding three SDLP seats. He was clear that | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
if he did not have a quick conversation with Sylvia Harman, | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
that is an issue. But he was clear from the beginning that he wanted to | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
have a conversation with nationalism, Unionism and anybody | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
that wanted to have strong Remain voices. I don't want to labour the | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
point, but you said yourself, you volunteered that he would not have | :14:52. | :14:53. | |
used that line which in that statement. Was that statement a | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
mistake, and should you be apologising for the tone that | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
contributed to the wider debate? I don't think so. If you look at the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
statement in the context of what we said, firstly through the | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
discussion, it is not my words because I did and speak them. | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
Everybody has their own form of language and speech. There is an | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
implied criticism? There is no implied criticism, I am saying very | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
clearly it is not necessarily the way I would have said it. I don't | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
resile from the content. Let's be clear, nobody balked at the notion | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
when Unionism joined forces in the last election, of calling it out as | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
a sectarian pact. Some of the parties went as far as to say it was | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
not a Catholic about the place. If you are willing to bandy that kind | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
of language around about the Unionist you can't say on the other | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
side, it is OK when we do it. If it walks and quacks like a duck, it is | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
a duck. That is how the public will make their judgment. When people | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
bring forward proposals, we should have the space and be willing to | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
listen. Just because other parties have engaged in sectarian pacts | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
within unionism, does not mean anybody that wants to have a | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
discussion around the coalition is necessarily advocating a sectarian | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
pact. I think that was the issue. If you wanted to have a genuine open | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
conversation, unfortunately other parties were not willing to do that. | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
The Greens had a conversation, Sinn Fein was willing to have a | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
conversation. It was not out of hand, it was out of principle. I do | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
not believe it is right to have pacts. I believe it is up to the | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
electorate to choose who votes for what. Are the Liberal Democrats, | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
your sister party, wrong, standing aside, against the Greens? Is that | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
wrong? I am not leading the Liberal Democrats. It is your sister party? | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
If I were, they would not stand aside. If you had been leading the | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
Alliance Party 2001, would Stephen Farry have stood aside? I voted | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
against that of the time. It happened? Of course, at that time I | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
was relatively low down on the party. Could you say there is a | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
degree of hypocrisy? I understand why people pointed out, but there | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
was no pact, no reciprocation for Alliance, nor did we see Kenny. It | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
was not just something aside for Sylvia Harman, we stood aside for | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
those that work for the Good Friday agreement. It was not just Sylvia | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
Hermon. We were advocating something similar, to protect the interests of | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
the people that voted for Remain. We learn from our mistakes. Are you | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
going to be the SDLP candidate in north Belfast? We have said we are | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
open to trying to find agreed candidates. If it doesn't transpire, | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
the party will be standing in North Belfast. We have heard that Sinn | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
Fein has selected Mairtin O Muilleoir. What do you make of that? | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
A bit of a slap in the face to your party leader, who wanted closer | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
cooperation? We expressed disappointment that people were not | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
willing to take the offer. Alasdair McDonnell is a veteran. One thing | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
about him is that he can fight and win elections. We look forward to | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
him winning this election. The most bizarre thing about this is, despite | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
the fact you think it is important that people at Westminster in order | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
to do the job, you're still open to a coalition and a packed with a | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
party that is not going to turn up. Sinn Fein have been clear. It is a | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
fundamental issue. If we are going to have any impact on Brexit, the | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
least we can do is turn up and do the job. That is why we have | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
proposed a green candidates that we will take their seats. And Sinn Fein | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
said no. We have covered a lot of ground. Thank you both for joining | :18:49. | :18:49. | |
us. There's been a new call from MPs | :18:50. | :18:50. | |
this week for a Statute of Limitations for soldiers charged | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
with Troubles-related crimes. It wasn't the only recommendation | :18:53. | :18:54. | |
from the Defence Committee at Westminster, which also called | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
for a truth recovery process. But it was the suggestion that | :18:58. | :18:59. | |
former soldiers and police officers should be shielded from prosecution | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
that grabbed the headlines. Surely the answer has to be a | :19:03. | :19:39. | |
statute of limitations, preventing the prosecution of veterans? If you | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
introduce that, it is only directed at state actors, it looks like state | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
impunity, in effect. The committee are satisfied the Government has | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
options and a statute of limitations would be the most preferred. | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
Everybody has to be equal under the law, there can be no immunity for | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
people that killed Irish citizens. Jeffrey Donaldson, should anyone be | :20:01. | :20:12. | |
above the law? In each of these cases, there has previously been an | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
investigation. Indeed, in some cases, up to two or three | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
investigations of these killings. On each occasion, decisions were taken | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
not to prosecute. How much longer, for how much longer are we going to | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
see retired soldiers and police officers, some of them now in their | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
70s, being subjected to what effectively is a witchhunt against | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
them? In a way that nobody else in Northern Ireland is? We have a | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
legacy investigation Branch with the PSNI, and the majority of its | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
resources today are devoted to investigating what soldiers and | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
police did, rather than the fact that over 90% of the killings in the | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
troubles in Northern Ireland were committed by paramilitary terrorist | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
organisations. Soldiers and supporters see this as their way of | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
achieving equality under the law. As they see it, terrorists were | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
released under the Good Friday agreement, that is unfair, as far as | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
they are concerned, this proposal redresses the balance? The fact is, | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
what this is about is trying to get immunity for people killing Irish | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
citizens. Whether they wear a uniform or not, which is why I said | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
there should be equality under the law and no immunity for anybody. If | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
you believe in the law, surely that is the way you approach it. Jeffrey | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
has been involved in these negotiations, and I remember he was | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
the one that argued most that they needed to be an investigative | :21:40. | :21:49. | |
process. We now have the HIU. You get the agreement around legacy | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
structures and we continue the breakthrough of these talks, and the | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
DUP and I are saying we should move off into something. Or we can have | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
the HIU, but it doesn't matter in the end, it is discriminatory, they | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
want certain people away. Today on the news we had the case of Mr | :22:06. | :22:15. | |
Watts, killed in 1971. Let me make this point, it took them 46 years | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
just to get the acknowledgement, just to get the acknowledgement to | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
say that person was innocent. There are people that have been waiting | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
for the same period of time for justice, for acknowledgement, even, | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
and they are not given up. It is discriminatory. You know that | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
critics will say they are very keen on balance and very keen on | :22:37. | :22:38. | |
fairness. But you want to have your cake and eat it, frankly, you want | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
to see soldiers prosecuted but you are happy that on the runs should | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
have letters of comfort and not come before the court? You mention that, | :22:49. | :22:57. | |
in fact, talking about the PSNI doing is investigations, one of them | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
that has been done is into over 200 so called on the runs. That is a | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
complete falsehood. If you want to deal with balance, let's deal with | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
balance. There have been 23,000 Republicans that have gone through | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
the processes of court and jail. On the other hand, we had three four, | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
possibly five, British soldiers convicted of murder. All of them | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
were released with a short period of time, some within two years and all | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
of them went back into the British Army. A number of them, at least two | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
of them, were promoted through their old regiment. What is your | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
counterargument? Very easy, these were people acting within the law. | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
They were there to protect the law. They were convicted of murder! This | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
is what happens when you are in a conflict and have soldiers in | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
uniform, police officers, whose job is to protect the public. When the | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
IRA opened fire on them, what are they expected to do? Use water | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
pistols!? Individuals in a uniform, convicted for breaking the law? Yes, | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
but many of the killings... Let's talk about these four 5ive cases... | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
You might want to concentrate on four five of 8000 killings, because | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
we need to concentrate. Samuel Donelson was murdered by the | :24:23. | :24:24. | |
Provisional IRA on the 12th of August 1970, with his colleague, Roy | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
Miller. That is a long time ago. Nobody has ever been brought to | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
justice. Now, are his family not entitled to the truth? You talk | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
about the length of time... Hang on a second... Who is arguing against | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
that? All I have said is that people need to be equal under the law, and | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
treated as equal under the law. Jeffrey is putting out examples of | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
this. What he has said, essentially, is that anybody that way British | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
uniform should not be touched, no matter what they did. That is | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
exactly what you're saying, it is discrimination. I am saying weather | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
has been an Article 2 investigation in the past and a decision not to | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
prosecute, let's take the shootings by the SAS, and went all the way to | :25:14. | :25:22. | |
the European Court of Human Rights. I know you don't want to hear this. | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
I am going to have my say as well. I am going to have my say as well. It | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
went all the weight of the European Court of Human Rights, who ruled it | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
was lawful killing. That is the case in the vast majority of shootings | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
that involved the police and the army. They were lawful killings. | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
Jerry talks about people being above the law. Many of his colleagues are | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
the recipients of the Royal Prerogative of Mercy. They were | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
allowed to go free. That is above the law? Jerry was the postman that | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
went around handing out the on the run letters to comrades, telling | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
them they could return home and not face prosecution. I want to ask you | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
specifically, the point that Gerry Kelly made a moment ago. He went on | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
to make another point, on a tangent, with respect. He said 25,000 | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
Republicans have been through the prison system during the troubles, | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
only five members of the security forces, the British Army, have | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
actually served time, for varying periods of time, for crimes they | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
committed when a uniform. There is a huge disparity. How do you account | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
for that? Easily. The Provisional IRA were an illegal organisation. | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
Loyalist paramilitaries were illegal organisations. Every time they | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
acted, they were acting outside the law. The British Army, the Royal | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
Ulster Constabulary, they are lawful organisations. On each occasion, | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
when I acted, they were acting within the law, except on a small | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
number of occasions when there were some who acted outside of the law | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
and they have been brought before the courts. There are outstanding | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
cases. Senior counsel themselves, talking to the British defence | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
committee, which brought through the report, they said if you pursue | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
this, you will be held about holding state forces, that they can act with | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
impunity, and people know that they did. You cannot give them immunity. | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
So, even the advice to the committee are saying they are wrong doing | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
this, and yet they are pursuing it. It is a very discriminatory process, | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
they are saying it is just to deal with these people, and just to deal | :27:35. | :27:44. | |
with the article 2 issues, the HMIC itself said it was not Article 2, | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
and they did not cover that. The British military, in the early 70s, | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
were investigated by the British military police. They were not | :27:56. | :28:03. | |
Article 2 compliant. These people... We are getting very technical. | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
People need justice, do not be discriminatory. | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
There are couple of other issues I want to talk about. Arlene Foster | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
says the DUP has no deadline. She wants to get back to a functioning | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
executive. Does that mean you previously stated opposition to an | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
Irish language act has gone away? We want to hear from people who are not | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
the weapon I think the Irish language like Sinn Fein, not | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
politicising, but who genuinely want to see the Irish language promoted, | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
and they want to hear from those people and that is exactly what she | :28:41. | :28:41. | |
is doing. A spokesman for Conradh na Gaelige | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
said today that that the DUP had confirmed "they were looking | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
at content and legislative provision In terms of what it looks | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
like we have yet to see," he added. Does that mean you're discussing and | :28:53. | :29:03. | |
thinking about some kind of Irish language act? That may or may not be | :29:04. | :29:10. | |
the outcome. Up to now you have said it will not be the outcome. I don't | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
want to predetermine the outcome, we are also looking at what happens in | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
Scotland and the Isle of Mann and Wales, all parts of the United | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
Kingdom with minority languages. So the DUP's position is softening. We | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
are looking to see how we can accommodate. Arlene Foster said | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
there will be no Irish language act. That seems to have changed. I don't | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
know that there will be an Irish language act. Up to know you said | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
there wouldn't be. Let me put it this way, we remain to be convinced | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
this is the most effective way to promote the language. But you have a | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
lot less hostile, is that fair to say. We are willing to listen to | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
what people have to say and take on board what they have to say and that | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
is fear. Good news? Michelle O'Neill has welcomed the fact that Arlene | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
Foster is owing to consider the Irish language act and I welcome | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
that, but I don't know how you weapon I language, and if you start | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
off by saying we're going to spot to the people who talk Irish but not if | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
they support Sinn Fein or whatever, and if you talk about westernising | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
and all that, the people who made the Irish language political was the | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
DUP. Can I ask one last question. Is there going to be an agreed unionist | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
candidate in south Belfast? I wouldn't just focus on South | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
Belfast. I well because we have been focusing on that tonight. I listened | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
carefully and we are not ruling out any option that the stage and | :30:45. | :30:46. | |
continuing to any option that the stage and | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
what our fellow unions, not just looking at South Belfast but a | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
number of constituencies. We want to maximise unionist representation in | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
the House of Commons, because we are unionist. That doesn't make a | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
unionist pact sectarian because many people support the unionist parties | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
who are not Protestant. All sitting DUP MPs will run again, is that | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
correct? Yes and we will select candidates for other constituencies | :31:17. | :31:17. | |
as well. We will we let the. And with me now to reflect | :31:18. | :31:18. | |
on what we've been discussing tonight are Fionnuala O Connor | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
and Alex Kane. Welcome to you both and thank you | :31:22. | :31:31. | |
for joining us. A quick word about pacts first of all, what is your | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
reading over what is happening in South Belfast? There may yet be an | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
agreed unionist candidate and we know there will be someone running | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
against Alistair MacDonald and you saw the report? It is un-readable. | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
-- McDonnell. Nobody has written it down or talking clearly, beyond | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
that, which I think leads it up in the air, it means that unless | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
unionists get themselves very quickly, Alistair McDonnell might | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
just get through again. I imagine they will get together. What did you | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
make of, I will call it a conversation earlier, no great | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
meeting of minds on what pacts mean for the democratic process? That is | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
a bit of nonsense about are the sectarian or not. I hear unionist | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
saying that is dreadful, like the lovely summing up of nationalists | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
getting together being anti-unionist. What a dreadful | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
thing, an awful thing for nationalists to be. And likewise... | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
The UUP and the DUP are clearly talking. They spoke for themselves | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
over the M Nesbit story for South Belfast, the Belfast Telegraph. | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
Whatever happens, Mike Nesbitt will not be the agreed candidate. If you | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
look at South Belfast and the shift in the unionism from the UUP to the | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
DUP, take away the argument of the big traditional unionism, the | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
present, and if you're looking for an ideal candidate, I think Robbie | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
McEwen is right, at someday like Kennedy. The DUP believes itself to | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
be the party in South Belfast. They want easily accept it but they are | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
still talking and looking at the possibility which involves South | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
Belfast and a couple of other constituencies, my betting as they | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
would find that they look at an Ulster Unionist candidate, they | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
would not be looking at Mike Nesbitt, they would possibly look at | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
somebody like Danny Kennedy. In the meantime, the pause button has been | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
pressed on the detox process. Apparently there will still be | :33:53. | :33:54. | |
bilateral discussions but I don't think anybody is putting any great | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
weight on that. Everything there was focusing on June nine. And an | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
unnecessary pause button, nothing to pause, and Jim might tell us that | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
things have been achieved and agreement had been reached on | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
various issues. I doubt that he even believes that, certainly not the | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
people in the Cox. Alex, do you agree, your pessimistic? I am always | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
pessimistic. More than you usually are? Which is quite difficult! Detox | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
are going nowhere, but again talks are going on and with Jeffrey, we | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
cultivate the Irish language, softening up the stands, and when | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
Alan Foster says she's willing to talk and listen to be void | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
accommodate, that is a willingness to say we are prepared to move. | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
There is wriggle room and that in itself is important but that is | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
outside the talks process. Interesting times, thank you both | :34:47. | :34:47. | |
indeed. That's it from The View | :34:48. | :34:48. | |
for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
at 11:35 here on BBC One. But we leave you tonight | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
with a reminder that there's really Here's a Vincent Hanna report | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
from February 1974 - see how little has changed | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
in 43 years! But the Ulster voters confused by | :34:59. | :35:11. | |
the whole thing, this is the fourth Paul Lee have faced in 18 months. | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
The Westminster elections should be about Westminster issues but of | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
course it isn't and we know that. I think it is either for or against | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
the executive, that is my opinion. I think it is a bit mixed up. We are | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
not quite sure but it is to start a new assembly. This election goes to | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
show again how vast a golf villas between politics in Northern Ireland | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
and the listed United Kingdom. 48 candidate standing and not | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
campaigning about industrial relations are North Sea oil, they | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
are worried about the constitution of Ulster and the Sunnydale | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
agreement. 26 of the candidates are in favour of the agreement but they | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
are in disarray because they are fighting each other and splitting | :36:01. | :36:01. | |
votes. | :36:02. | :36:02. |