04/05/2017 The View

The stakes have been raised and tempers are beginning to fray

as the Brexit negotiations begin and Brussels is accused

Tonight on The View, just how difficult is this two year

A massive divorce bill, strained dinner conversations,

accusation and counter accusation - the discussions over Brexit

are shaping up to be an ill-tempered two-year marathon.

I'll be asking the SDLP's Mark Durkan, a keen Europhile,

and DUP Brexiteer Gavin Robinson for their thoughts.

Also tonight: The View goes to the movies.

With the release of The Journey, we look at some of the best

How can we even contemplate doing that?

Waiting in the wings, hot-foot from the premiere of the new film,

I'll be joined by Timothy Spall and Colm Meaney.

Making a starry return to Commentators' Corner,

Deirdre Heenan and Newton Emerson are back in harness.

The guidelines have been agreed and a divorce

bill is being drawn up, but as the Brexit negotiations

move up a gear, so too have the recriminations.

Nigel Farage has accused Brussels of "stoking Irish nationalism",

while Theresa May has accused the EU of meddling in the general election.

Add in the complete absence of an Executive at Stormont,

and questions about the lack of input from this part

With me now are Gavin Robinson of the DUP and, in our Foyle studio,

Gavin Robinson, do you share Nigel Farage's view that the EU

is prepared to stoke Irish nationalism to make life

as difficult as possible for the UK in future Brexit negotiations?

I've never taken Nigel Farage's bleed on Brexit or anything else. It

is clear that there are those who are trying to associate the decision

that the United Kingdom has taken to leave the European Union to fuel

some sort of aspirin few that Ireland could unify with the Irish

Republic. That will not happen with this process. For all of the fears

and concerns that people may legitimately have about leaving the

EU, any unification would be a disaster for this province. So when

Nigel Farage talks about the situation being delivered and

contemptible, you don't agree with them? The Irish nationalists who

believe this is a pathway to a united Ireland are over egging the

pudding. He is saying that? 20 of them. Whether it was the Assembly

election this year were the referendum last year, plenty of

nationalists and republicans have sought to destabilise politics in

Northern Ireland, they suggest they are on the up under border poll is

imminent. Have heard that. You will question people about it. It is not

a likely prospect. Take this time last year, not only you have

European officials, Enda Kenny and Theresa May saying we would not be

able to deal with issues around the border. Nobody is saying that now.

While there is a lot of megaphone diplomacy from Brussels and Downing

Street over the course of the next five week campaign, while some of

these issues are coming to the surface, where there is a strong

response from Northern Ireland to make sure we can deal with these

issues that Brexit will mean we have to face, but we can get into some

constitutionally difficult discussion about the unification of

Ireland, that's for the best. As an Irish nationalist, producing these

Brexit the goosy agents are a road map to a united Ireland? The Brexit

because Haitians themselves aren't. There are taken place because there

was a referendum, a result we disagreed with and the people of the

north disagreed with, the North voted a different way from other

parts of the UK along with Scotland. If anything has still to Irish

nationalism it is the fact that people perceive that Brexit course

with little regard to the consequences for the Good Friday

Agreement, for the potential impact on the agreement and its workings.

People were completely insensitive to the clear which is of the

majority of people in Northern Ireland and that insensitivity came

not just from the British government but also from the DUP. That is one

of the things that have led to the discolouration of politics here over

the past year. Now this situation is top of the agenda. Somehow or other

Irish politicians or diplomats have this really high up. And rightly so.

It is a point I have consistently made. On the day of the referendum

result they called for the Taoiseach to set up an All-Ireland dialogue in

relation to Brexit to take account of all the different sectoral

interests and its impact on the Good Friday Agreement. I argued in

Parliament that the privacy of the consent precept of the Good Friday

Agreement had to be protected in terms of a united Ireland. We had to

make sure that any referendum on a united Ireland would not be subject

to the kind of uncertainties and confusions that played into the

Scottish referendum by people saying, well, just because the

referendum is making a decision about the constitutional status,

that does not take care of the question of European Union

membership. The Supreme Court decision earlier this year was one

where people were saying the Supreme Court is saying the decision on

Constitutional status is separate to the European Union membership, which

is why the Brexit did not reach the Good Friday Agreement consent

principle is as far as the Supreme Court was concerned. The Taoiseach

was right and showed good guardianship of the agreement in

making sure that there was no ambiguity about this. This is

something that the British government should have been

clarifying, and finally did when David Davis wrote to me when he was

asked that the Brexit Secretary. This clarification from big European

Council is simply a technicality in the margins which is just said to

one side. It is not the opening of a serious conversation about Irish

unity, is there but you're saying? It is not a mere technicality. We

are protecting a precept of the Good Friday Agreement. Whatever about the

referendum result for Brexit, there an overwhelming referendum result

for the Good Friday Agreement in Ireland. The point about this being

reflected in the EU position is to make it clear that Northern Ireland

it is one part of the UK there can be join the EU in future without an

Article 49 negotiation. That is not true of the UK as a whole or

Scotland. That different shows that Northern Ireland is in a different

position from the rest of the UK. We are different because of citizenship

in the future, being able to be EU citizens because of the virtue of

being Irish citizens. Those two key differences provide a basis for us

having a different approach under Brexit, what people might call

special status. Do you accept that? It is quite a nuanced position

there. It is not necessarily the case that this clarification from

the European Council is a building block towards the outcome of a

united Ireland. Do you accept that? I don't think it is, that's not what

I was saying either. The point is that Irish nationalists are even

saying that. That wasn't the point I was making at the start of that

interview. It was well summed up by this point in Northern Ireland and

the Republic of Ireland were to join together we would be part of the

European Union. It was fairly summarised by Sam McBride at the

weekend, the political editor of the newsletter, he said of course would

happen. It would be the same as when he is Germany and West Germany came

together. You wouldn't expect one to be a member and whatnot. It is a

falsehood point, not something I am hung up on whatsoever. The

difficulty and all of this is that the beginning of the brains of

negotiations have been very ill tempered. There isn't much of a sign

that things will come down in the months and years ahead, and we don't

have a voice at the table. There is no executive here, nobody in

particular what could have individual speaking on behalf of the

people of Northern Ireland. And up until the dissolution of parliament

we had Sammy Wilson on the Brexit committee, Mark was the other

Northern Ireland voice on that committee. Mark was disingenuous

when he said the British government weren't taking the issues around

Northern Ireland seriously because any time there was a statement in

Westminster Northern Ireland was top of the agenda. They recognise a

geographical position and our relationship with the Irish

Republic. But no voice. And that is a huge difficulty. We want to see a

return to Stormont, we want to have a voice and work with people in

Northern Ireland who collectively can put their children to the

wheeled ants show that where there are issues of common cause that we

can put a unified argument to the United Kingdom government and to the

European Commission. Nobody wants to see this as a failure. Nobody wants

to see the UK leaving the European Union to be a disaster. We want to

see it succeed, see Northern Ireland take full advantage of it, but where

we have issues, the border connections, trade connections,

family connections, we need to work together to Major Sharia get the

best deal. Sammy Wilson thinks there are opportunities, Mark Durkan seems

to be against that. Saami will not go to it being either a total

success were a total disaster. With a return to Stormont, with a unified

message, and going and arguing for those conditions, we should do that.

Needn't think that Brexit really presents us with opportunities, you

don't think it is a good idea? I don't think Brexit is a good idea

but I know that it is going to happen, barring some amazing twist

on circumstances. I recognise that Brexit poses problems for the Good

Friday Agreement, but more positively I recognise that the Good

Friday Agreement offers us a lot of answers to the problems and risks

that come from Brexit, particularly on this island. Kenji and people

like Sammy Wilson agree on what those possibilities are? Maybe it is

hard and circumstances were people have been in denial over some of the

problem that Brexit to create, and the DUP sender could be no

differentiation of the Northern Irish position from anywhere else in

the UK, whereas there is a clear basis for differentiation. We can

use that to our advantage. The Good Friday Agreement gives us a

distinctive focus in relation to devolution and the plastic gambit of

strand two. The European Union 27 said at the weekend, that they want

to respect bilateral agreements and all of its strands. He also said

they want to be flexible enough and imaginative in relation to Ireland.

Strand two is the gambit whereby we can bring forward a room flexibility

and imagination. For Strand two to operate we need an executive in the

North. We need Strand want to be operating a Strand two will operate

as well. We need to get the executive established. We need to

use Strand two to say that in sector after sector, has a cannon Strand

two, want the island to be treated as a single market. We want the

North to be treated on a lean to basis with the South as far as EU

programmes are concerned and I think the EU would be as supportive in

that regard. Gavin Robinson, do you like any of

that? It's as an extension of the special status that has until now

been ill-defined. We're not going to leave one it in single market of the

European Union to join one with the Irish Republic when trade with the

Irish Republic is a quarter of what we do the rest of Great Britain. So

what more can -- Mark Durkan has just outlined you don't shout? We

did say from the weekend that there were going to be considerations

given to how good pass from the UK to the Republic of Ireland as one

example. And that is the sort of discussion which is important. But

also need to get over some of those hurdles people have raised as

customs barriers and the like. OK, to be polite about it coming he's

just thrown back in your face, Mark Durkan. Doesn't sound like he agrees

with what you just said? He obviously hasn't listen to what I

just said. If he just doesn't closely, he would find it isn't very

different from what Arlene Foster along with Martin McGuinness and

Theresa May said last summer, saying we want to take care of the single

market in electricity on the island. There are many areas we want to say

woman to see the island treated as a single market. There are areas of

cooperation and joint in fermentation, the EU will respect

that. The means of maintaining sectors such as agriculture, why

shouldn't we do it? Thank you both very much indeed.

When Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness went into government

together a decade ago, it was a partnership that few had

The film that imagines how the two men broke the ice and ultimately

became friends had its local premiere in Belfast tonight.

The Journey is a fictional account of their first meeting by the Bangor

writer Colin Bateman and it stars Timothy Spall and Colm Meaney.

I'll be talking to both men in just a moment.

But first, here's Stephen Walker on the challenge of making a good

Over the years, we've witnessed many films about the Troubles that are

taken real life events and dramatise them, like Bloody Sunday and the

hunger strike. It seems like Northern Ireland and the box office

go hand-in-hand, but what makes a good film about this place? Ian

McAvennie is one of our best-known actors and starred in many movies

about Northern Ireland. -- Ian McElhinney. I don't think you quite

know who I am. To be honest times I think, that I don't want to watch is

any more. It's not benefiting me to watch this. The irony as I might be

part of the making of it, because at the end of the day I have to make my

living. But there would be times when I would feel disenchanted about

watching yet another piece about here. Ian McElhinney's latest film

is The Journey,. That's the first time you've said we. I think, in

mathematical terms, the higher at the the movie, quite possibly. I

think the movies that work best that I made about here are the smaller

films like the hunger, which focused on smaller interactions, more

intimate stories, rather than the big, blockbuster thrillers. The

Troubles presented film makers with real-life drama, but which once

worked as a piece of cinema, and which productions should have stayed

on the cutting room floor? There are films that we would laugh at. Like

Brad Pitt with a bad accent in The Devil's Own, which made from

Northern Ireland to Boston. Which did very well over there, but

luckily both sides are ready just laughed at it. It was the same with

Mickey Rourke, with an even worse accent. Mickey Rourke is a terrorist

who killed for a cause he believed in. Now, he wants out. It was just

so far removed from the reality we know. I said no! Server every really

bad one or get one, there are ones that are very worthy. For example,

Byker Titanic town, with Julie Walters. Hidden Agenda was one of

the first to even suggest there might be collusion between

paramilitaries and the security forces. But have we had our Phil of

Troubles bones. There is a time when the price becomes too much to pay

for the cause. What difference does it make if a British soldier kills a

child, it is still a dead child! They are not necessarily about

violence in society, because there is a lot of normality and our world,

but it is not necessarily reflected on-screen. I'm going to have a baby,

which means those two dirty, useless things, have to go. No, not our

chickens! I don't think you can have enough. The Vietnam War, I think,

some of the best movies about that in a more didn't come out until 2030

years after it finished. That's I think it's a golden time for a bus

to be telling stories about our country. Bronagh Taggart starred in

the BBC series The Fall. She's also made a film set in which is a family

drama with a boxing background. She says Troubles films are only part of

the story. I think a lot of people know the very political films that

come out of Northern Ireland, there are quite high profile and people

there for November. But I don't think they're the only ones that are

telling their stories there at the minute are telling faced mix of

political and personal. I think it will simply be like that in Northern

Ireland. Northern Ireland is now a much used location for filming, and

financial support from bodies like 3rd Northern Ireland screen has

made this part of the world attracted to production companies.

There are new tales to be told when it comes to capturing the story of

Northern Ireland on film, our troubled past is never too far away.

People don't understand what happens after. Liam Neeson ending that

report by Stephen Walker, and I am pleased to say Tim baseball and Colm

Meaney join me now. They give a join us on the programme. Do you except

the film is a piece that is likely to be viewed differently here to

just about anywhere else? I think the audience here is much more

knowledgeable about the events that took place and much more familiar

with them and the two central characters. I think when we were

making the film, which was the end to tears and 15, less than a year

and a half ago, but the world has changed so much. -- was the end of

2015. You had Brexit, President Trump, the Assembly stand-off here,

we sold the film has been an inspirational story about two guys

who come from polar opposite positions and managed to come to an

agreement. We saw this as, I suppose, a done deal here, and it

would be an inspirational story for other conflicts around the world. So

now we find ourselves here today seeing a film that is very much

relevant to hear again. So I don't know that it's... I hope the film

has a universal appeal and relevance. As a reaction different

here then you have picked up elsewhere? It's only really, apart

from Venice, which was a wonderfully well-received place, it's obviously

got to be different here because of its immediacy. The thing about this

story is that you people watching it are the experts, as I said in a

press conference the other day. I was temporary very mindful of and

concerned that if I took this on, I wasn't going to step on anybody's

sensibilities here. But the thing that pushed me across that worry was

that when I thought about it objectively, the film, as Colm says,

is a massive beacon for conflict resolution. It's realisation, a take

on a possibility, we're not reporting it to be a real story,

it's based on a possibility, it is a massively positive story about two

absolutely opposing ideologies on something that I did think was ever

going to be resolved, and they did it. You met the Paisley family

today, what was their view on the project? I met Ian Paisley Junior

and Baroness Paisley, and Ian has Robert Lee said today -- has

publicly said today that he thinks it's positive thing. Baroness

Paisley doesn't want to see it because of her massive memory of Ian

and it's still raw, but she suggested that she was quite pleased

that it was happening. I was very, very pleased to meet her and meet

both of them today, because, as a human being to another human being,

I was very concerned, this is a cherished memory and cherish love

for her, so I was pleased to meet her and had a very nice time with

her, actually. It is fascinating, many people watching this programme

tonight will have known my to mimic -- no-one Martin McGuinness or Ian

Paisley and will have liked them or dislike them very much indeed. Ian

Paisley is now a historical figure because he died some years ago. But

when you make the film, Martin McGuinness was alive and well. He is

no longer with us, so he is also a historical figure. I mean, you met

him once, you him a bit? And four try, yeah, it is the case that he is

now a historical figure. -- unfortunately, yeah, it is the case.

His death is such a tragedy. He was too young, he had an awful lot to

offer and I think he's sorely missed. Today, in the political

arena. And, of course, a personal loss to his family. From our point

of view, our personal point of view, I would love Martin to have seen the

film and heard some of his right, humorous comment about it. I'm sure

he was given me a few pointers and last about it. To what extent was

that an issue for both of you when you are making the film? Did you

think about Martin McGuinness seeing the film when you outreach eating

it? Divac Russia mind, did you -- did that cross your mind, did you

think about it? The script was beautifully written by Colin

Bateman, and that is what we were going to shoot, so I knew that.

There wasn't any issue of shipping it or honing it to please either

constituency. I think ten would agree that both Martin and his

family and the Paisley family never asked for or demanded any editorial

input or otherwise. Timothy, what about the challenge of drinks unlike

Ian Paisley on the big screen? -- of portraying Ian Paisley on the big

screen. You don't come from this part of the world, he was a larger

than life character, you don't look particularly like him, but you do in

the film. But you don't want that portrayal to lapse into caricature.

So how did you approach it? Obviously, I was more than acutely

aware of this position here and also you'd have to be blind not to notice

he was a man of huge idiosyncrasy and huge charisma. Whether you agree

with him or not. I don't think that was in dispute. I've played several

people, people who were still alive or recent historical figures, and I

was of the same thing - my job is to look at what they are,

take on board what they are physically and idiosyncratically,

but fundamentally my job is to make an emotional connection via my

imagination and research. And I would often go way, way back in the

good people -- pictures of people when they were children before had

the layers and tapestry of sophistication to try and to tap

into things, right down to ground level, to see what make people take

and make an emotional connection as well as an intellectual one. An

absolutely empathise. I dropped my own prejudices about anything and

see it from their point of view. What about the key issue which many

people have seen the film have talked about, the fact there's is a

remarkable story for stop the journey these people take in reality

was remarkable and frankly unbelievable and unpredictable, but

it happened. Many people say that in itself would have been a fascinating

film. But what Colin Bateman and Nick can have done is take that and

whereupon it another layer of action. Does that help or hinder the

telling of a remarkable story? I think it really helps. We know

they came from these very disparate positions and came to an agreement.

We don't know how or why they did it. They may not even know how or

why it happened. There was some kind of personal connection happen

between these two people that help them. They somehow started to see

each other on the human level that obviously helped them move forward

in the political arena. We can only speculate as to how that happens and

we very much... We are happy to admit that this is a speculation, a

fiction. We have created what possibly could've been the way they

came together. That is basically all we can do. We don't in any way claim

it is a documentary or it is factually what happens. It is simply

our homage to what happened. What might have happened. Exactly.

Looking at some kids coming out of the show and this afternoon. What

they were sent to the person interviewing them is that, I didn't

know that's what happened. The reality is, it isn't what happened,

if you're taking it from a purely factual point of view. What is the

line between fact and fiction on a case like this? Take the basic

premise of the movie being 90 minutes. This is 500 years of

trouble and a massive amount of things that have happened. To

truncate all of the aspects, you can do that, they recently did a

six-hour documentary about OJ Simpson. That was a documentary.

This is a theatrical concede that pays homage to elements of the

truth. It is a very skilful vehicle of bringing, with an element of

truth, a story together where these two intractable, implacable

characters get the chance and truth to voice an opinion which tries to

encapsulate this painful period of Irish history. We have to accept it

as a movie, not a documentary. Michael Sheen reprise the role of

three times as Tony Blair. Would you do these characters again? It has

been speculated that which appeared on stage. The work is always on the

page, it depends on the script. If it is great work, who knows? Will

believe it open-ended like that. Thank you both. Good to see you.

Let's hear now what our refreshed team in Commentators' Corner

Back for the next six weeks are Deirdre Heenan

Let's rewind to the top of the programme and talk about that Brexit

negotiation. Stalking Irish nationalism, the view of Nigel

Farage, is that a valid point or nonsense? We have to realise that

European negotiations always this fraught. There is nothing

particularly unusual about this. When you consider the five years

that Britain negotiated its rebate, that quickly escalated to refusing

to pay, boycotting the commission, the EU at one point said that the

whole think could collapse if Mrs Thatcher wanted her billion pounds

back. At the last minute it was suddenly fixed. When you look back

about coverage you see that we are in as proper situation as we are in

now. It is not an unusual situation and we shouldn't get paranoid about

people trying to break a beach other's countries. It has been bad

tempered so far and there is no reason to believe that things will

get much easier. No, they will get easier. Will they get tougher? I do.

It will be very fraught. It is interesting that Nigel Farage can

talk about stoking nationalism for one's political ends when he has

been stoking English nationalism to get his political end. I think

people were genuinely surprised that Irish concerns are right up there.

And they are. Right at the top of the agenda along side the right of

EU citizens living in Britain. That is interesting. It hasn't been

metric. The rhetoric so far is from Theresa May saying no return to the

hard borders, but we have no idea what that means. The US saying that

Northern Ireland isn't just a region of the UK, it is a place set apart.

How did that find its way to the top of the agenda? It is not because of

pressure applied by the nonexistent Northern Ireland executive, for

example. It is entirely due to the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, who talked

about reunification under the German model. This has very clearly been an

arrangement negotiated at national government level. I don't think it

makes a vast difference, especially as we couldn't agree with each other

anyway. It is interesting to hear the subject of special starter spot

back into this debate. That could mean anything. There are so many

precedents around being on the edge of Europe, it is a wide-open term.

We should be able to find enough ambiguity and that to get an answer

that unionist live with. Spectral special status means different

things to different people. It can mean what you wanted to mean. You

might say there is an incentive for one and European state to join

another one, but that depends who you want to read it. It can mean

anything. It is interesting that they have decided that this is a

national priority and I think the Taoiseach has managed to get some

leverage there. We need to talk about the election. Their headline

news this week is John Finucane joining Sinn Fein and standing for

the party in north Belfast. Would you surprised? Yes, that does

surprise, it came out of the blue for most people. It is a move to

attract the middle-class vote, which is the swing vote in the North

Belfast constituency, around four John Finucane grew up. He said that

he wants to reach out to unionists and Protestants. There is an

opportunity for him to do that as a different kind of candidate. He

hasn't had an opportunity to appear in the media yet. I would be

interested personally in hearing his answers to questions about IRA

commemoration is that of course much controversy this week, for example.

Representing Northern Ireland on the big screen, we heard from our two

guests, the main actors in The Journey. There have been good films

bad films made about Northern Ireland. Most films avoid films

about Northern Ireland like the plague, because it is trying to get

the nuances in, the 500 years in 90 minutes. It tends to be cliched,

simplistic and people tend to avoid them. Not easy to do. At least we

are moving from Paramount -- paramilitaries to politics in the

movies. That's it from The View

for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at

11.35am here on BBC One when we'll hear from the Green Party,

the TUV and People Before Profit. But before we go, Hilary Clinton

blamed the Russians for meddling in her political fortunes,

but could their next target be Can I just say, the election here is

completely pointless. The Russians will hack it. They hacked the

American elections. Vladimir Putin is in Moscow talking to the lads in

the KGB, saying who do you fancy Forsyth dying? I like Jim Wells a

lot. He is not running, but we have the same approach the gay marriage.

What about East Antrim? I like Sammy Wilson, he has a pass, he looks like

a Soviet worker from