22/06/2017 The View

The negotiations between the Conservatives and the DUP drag on as

the Stormont deadline looms large, tonight, as London hesitates, is the

future of devolution being put in jeopardy? Tonight, on The View.

The Queen's speech has come and gone but there is still no deal at

Westminster, as the DUP overplayed its hand with the Conservatives,

with talk of a wish list priced in the billions? That kind of money is

not on the table, that suggests to me, whether it was and ask or not

and ask, it is not going to be there. What is the opposition make

of it, I am going to be speaking live with Stephen Pound of the

Labour Party. -- an ask. My ministers will continue to invest in

the gallant Armed Forces, and deliver on the Armed Forces covenant

across the United Kingdom. Good news for veterans perhaps but some

victims groups are less than happy, we will hear both sides of the

argument. And a light-hearted look at the DUP for our friends across

the water. Very partial to a flag... And a march(!) and socially, very

conservative... And resented commentators corner, two guests

tonight. -- returning. Negotiations continue at Westminster and at

Stormont, the mood music coming from both sets of talks changes by the

day, the DUP warned the Tories it is no pushover, at Stormont, Sinn Fein

says there has not been meaningful engagement for a deal to be done by

this time next week. One thing that is clear, the parties at Stormont

want to see the details of any agreement between the DUP and the

Conservative Party before they make a last push to get the instead you

shinty up and running again. Tonight, the DUP executive has been

in East Belfast as the talks continue in London. -- to get the

institution up and running again. It is a work in progress, both parties

making optimistic noises that a deal could be struck and we would go

public next week, I spoke with a number of conservatives today, they

said the talks were going well, the process has had up days and down

days, today is probably an update. The DUP were similarly optimistic.

Earlier we heard from Jeffrey Donaldson and we heard from Simon

Hamilton, talking in optimistic terms. Work in progress, both

parties confident a deal can be struck next week. As we speak, still

no agreement, we have heard the Queen's speech. And at one stage it

was a deadline. I understand there was a meeting between the two

parties and I understand the meeting between the Conservatives and the

DUP went well but also in the Queen's speech, we heard about the

military covenant, which is something that the DUP had been

campaigning for, they are delighted it is in the Queen's speech,

delighted that the military covenant will apply to Northern Ireland, and

it shows closeness between the two parties. I suppose, that is the

first public acknowledgement, a public concession to the DUP in

terms of this arrangement. What do you think rank-and-file Tories make

of what is going on? Well, different Tories will tell you different

things, mixed views within the Conservative Party, I suppose you

could split them into two camps, the realists and the sceptics, the

realists within the Conservative Party will say, we have to do a deal

to stay in power, the two parties are close on things like law and

order and defence and the union and the DUP and the Conservatives want

to keep Jeremy Corbyn out of number ten. The realists except there must

be some money or something in it for the DUP. Sceptics have concerns

about this deal, they have concerns because they are not so sure how

long this will last and because they have worries over some of the DUP

policies, particularly their policies over things like gay rights

and abortion. And the sceptics are particularly concerned about the

kind of money that is being talked about in the past few days. The

figure of 2 billion was given to the BBC from a key source. Other media

outlets had it, although the figures had been questioned by the DUP. It

is that figure of 2 billion that is worrying people within the

Conservative Party, they want to know what will that mean in other

parts of the United Kingdom? The key question is, what do senior Tories

think, what exactly is going on in the Conservative Party. To get an

idea of what the Tories are thinking, I have been speaking to

Iain Duncan Smith, former leader of the Conservative Party, I asked him

if he thought a deal would happen soon. I think they have made

progress, it is highly likely that we will have an arrangement, with

the DUP, and the Conservative Party, certainly before the votes that come

on Wednesday and Thursday. Why has it taken so long? I don't really

have an answer to that question other than, these things are all

about who thinks they need what and how it will work. They're in mind,

this is not an alliance, it is not a coalition, simply what they call a

supply in covenant, supply their votes for key elements of our

legislation, on a UK wide basis, and if there is a vote of confidence or

whatever. -- bear in mind. To support us in that, other than that,

other stuff is parties going their own separate ways. If you give

Northern Ireland millions of pounds, how do you justify that to other

parts of the UK? There have always been exceptional payments to

different parts of the UK. The city deals, for example, the city deals

put money into cities in different regions without any kind of buyer or

leave to others that did not get it. As go, Cardiff. Towns in northern

England got city deal money. I was part of that, huge injection of

money but it was done without any reference to whether or not there

was fairness about this, it was done reflecting the needs of the cities.

This is not unusual and doesn't invoke the Barnett Formula, which is

advisory, anyway. Two weeks since the election, these talks have

dragged on and on, claims from the DUP side and the Conservative side

that respect has not been given, that people have not been answering

their phones, and all kinds of things have gone on. Is that the

real reason why there has been a delay? That there has been bad

feeling on both sides? This is no doubt a negotiation and they always

have their moments, they have their moments of theoretical breakdown.

This is a deal which is wholly doable in the interest of the United

Kingdom. They support the government on key objectives, they want to get

the Queen's speech through, they support us completely on the

European settlement, out of the single market, controller borders,

out of the customs union. They want that and want to know how the border

will lie with Southern Ireland. All these things are part of the

negotiation. I genuinely believe from contact with DUP colleagues,

members of Parliament, who I get on well with, as we all do, they are

assuring me that there will be a deal that allows them to vote with

us in the Queen's speech. If you do a deal with the DUP, surely it means

you cannot be impartial when it comes to Northern Ireland? No,

because this is about the United Kingdom. We are not going to do any

agreement on the devolved administration in terms of how that

is run or in terms of the peace process. That is set. It is

interesting to note... You will not be seen as impartial. We will be

impartial, clearly, let's put it like that, the Northern Ireland

Office is set up to make sure that the Secretary of State is not able

to take partiality. Surely that will mean the Secretary of State will end

up with half an eye on Westminster. No, he's not meant to, he will be

looking at how he gets the parties back together again to be able to

get the devolved administration running. What you know is, a deep

reluctance from this government, to have any direct control over

Northern Ireland. We want them to get the devolved administration

going. It is in our interests to be clear that we want the resettlement.

Is there a danger that you are looking at devolution coming back?

Not at all, because it is in our direct interest from Westminster,

direct interest of the United Kingdom, to have that settlement

re-established, and for the administration to get together again

and be formed and for those parties to get on with governing Northern

Ireland. It is not in the UK Government's interest and not in the

interest of the DUP, to be frank, for this to go on much longer. Sinn

Fein and the DUP must settle this issue and get on with it. On that

matter, the government is absolutely impartial, it wants them to come

together. If they do not settle if themselves, no amount of pressure

from the government will change that, they have two settlement and

that is why we will remain impartial. -- they have to settle

it. The military covenant, sell it to nationals. It is clear, we want

to support and look after our members of the military while they

serve, after they serve, I was in the military myself and even served

in Northern Ireland. My sense about this is that it is the right thing

to do and everybody wants to support it. I cannot think why anybody would

not want to support it. That is my position and the position of the

DUP, we have an eye on that but we will not change it. Is there a

danger of creating a hierarchy, veterans given preferential

treatment? No, United Kingdom supports its Armed Forces who do

their jobs as a result of command from politicians, it is our job to

support them. Look after their needs and make sure they get the right and

fair deal, all the way through their lives, that is only fair.

Interesting to hear the thoughts of Iain Duncan Smith. We have got two

talks process is going on, side-by-side. He referred to that.

Are they separate, are they link? Undoubtedly, they are linked, no one

in Belfast is going to agree a deal until they see the colour of the

deal here at Westminster. Likewise, if the DUP do pull this deal off,

and there are going to be result from that, they can turn to the

parties in Belfast and say, let's get devolution up and running, look

at the great deal we have secured, millions for ex, millions for wife.

Those are the kind of things that are going on at the moment but no

doubt about it, the two processes are inexorably linked. -- by. -- y.

Next we will have a very busy week next week, votes on the Queen's

speech, debate taking place on Tuesday and Wednesday and a big vote

on Thursday, and Thursday is the deadline for Stormont. We have the

deadline on Thursday for Stormont, amidst all this, we are expecting a

DUP Tory deal sometime in the middle of the week. OK, we will see how it

pans out. Thank you very much for joining us. A lot has been written

and said here and in Britain about what the DUP could be asking for. We

asked economics and business editor John Campbell to take a closer look.

VOICEOVER: Extraordinarily election, and now, extraordinary negotiation,

the DUP find themselves across the table from a weakened Prime

Minister. Talking has been going on for two

weeks, but what is the DUP demanding in return for its support?

Conveniently, the DUP have written down much of what they want, it is

spread across two documents, a 2015 plan, prepared in anticipation of a

hung parliament, and a 2017 Westminster manifesto. The major

request concerns public services and taxation. The very first item in the

2015 plan, a call for more satisfactory terms in relation to

corporation tax. The law around corporation tax devolution was

passed back in 2015 but needs Treasury approval to go ahead. There

is the thorny issue of the cost. Cutting a tax here will mean that we

collect less money for the revenue. As a result, the Treasury will want

to cut the block grant by a corresponding amount. Likely to be

at least ?100 million. It is the sight of that hit to the block grant

which is now up for discussion. The DUP will be looking for a reduced

cost for achieving corporation tax. A lower hit to the block grant, if

you like, to make it much more affordable from a Northern Ireland

perspective. Similar story when it comes to air passenger duty,

effectively, a ?13 tax applied to every passenger on flights out of

Northern Ireland. Local airports have lobbied against it. The DUP

manifesto calls for its abolition, saying it would attract new routes

and tourists. The man who led a study of the tax two years ago found

that abolishing it would mean a ?55 million hit to the block grant. In

economic terms, a tax cut which would bring no overall benefits to

Northern Ireland. If the price tag falls, it is a different story. The

DUP will be looking to look at the special circumstances that Northern

Ireland faces in terms of sharing a land border with a jurisdiction

which did not have APD at all and use those special circumstances to

justify a lower rate, a lower APD rate in Northern Ireland and if we

can reduce the cost of the block grant, from a reduction in APD then

the economics of it way up much more favourably. The health service is

also featuring, it consumes about half of Stormont's ?10 billion

annual budget. It is under pressure with ever-growing waiting lists.

Westminster sources have told the BBC that the DUP once a cash

injection of up to ?1 billion. That would have a major impact within a

matter of months. Ultimately, a one-off lump of money will not solve

the structural problems in the health service. It is already

suffering from budgets which have become reliant on bits of one of or

non-recurrent funding. Yes, you can do things on waiting lists and

reduce the waiting times, but ultimately, would you fix the drive

of -- driver that is causing it? No, no amount of money is going to fix

that. The DUP have also emphasised the need to spend on infrastructure,

hangs like roads, the energy grid and broadband. Again, indications of

up to ?1 billion being asked for, although the DUP has played that

figure down. Economists think the spending should

help improve our economic performance. When it comes to local

politics, the money is likely to be the easier part of whatever the DUP

agrees. The other parties are not likely to complain too much if it

means lots of money for the local economy. What could be more

difficult is an agreement which brings us more into political

territory, like Sinn Fein's Westminster alliances, the flying of

flags, or even how we deal with the past. John Campbell reporting. Of

course, the Labour Party has been critical of attempts to agree a deal

between the Tories and the DUP. Jeremy Corbyn famously referred to

it as a potential coalition of chaos. A former Labour shadow

Northern Ireland minister joins me now, Stephen Pound. I still am the

shadow Northern Ireland minister! You still are, I apologise! Do you

accept that it is perfectly reasonable for the Tories and the

DUP to do a deal to keep Theresa May in No 10? Of course it is entirely

up to them. I think it is fascinating, something I have never

heard of before, but the Barnett Formula is advisory! For years and

years, we've been told that that is the basis for funding the regions of

the United Kingdom. If it is now advisory and if the DUP had I think

it was 1 billion for health in the manifesto, and another billion for

infrastructure, then I have to say there is a deal to be done which I

suppose the point being made was that there is a difference between

the day-to-day block grant and how it is divvied up and then these

particular, specific issues, which may arise from time to time, as far

as one-off payments are concerned, which is why the Barnett Formula

does not cover this kind of payment, if it happens. Quite simply, if you

are increasing payments, and I think Iain Duncan Smith was talking about

city funding, Northern Ireland is a special case. There is no other part

of the United Kingdom like it, you can always make a special case. The

key thing is, we are now in the most important seven days, the pages are

fluttering off the calendar as we get closer to next Thursday. We hear

that multilateral talks will possibly take place in Belfast

tomorrow, and then the clock really starts ticking on Monday, when I

think the deal will be done. We will come to that in a second, but if

there is a deal done, where hundreds of millions of pounds, potentially

up to ?2 billion of extra money, is given to Northern Ireland, to deal

with underfunding in terms of infrastructure and our creaking

health system, would you support that would you it in Westminster? I

want to see the detail. Theresa May promised last week there would be

full transparency. I want to see the details. Every single party in

Northern Ireland needs to see the details. We are hearing this figure,

but I want to see the full details, which we must have, we must have

transparency. Does it look like pork barrel politics to you? It doesn't

do me. You can say that, but of the money goes where it is needed. And

you cannot deny the special circumstances of Northern Ireland,

and the DUP are doing after all what force and elected to do. The DUP

says it wants to active in the national interest, it does not want

to active in a partisan way. It wants to look at issues like

supporting the Government on racks, backing the Armed Forces,

strengthening security, and still dealing with historic underfunding

in Northern Ireland, as it sees its. If people in Northern Ireland

benefit from it and things are balanced up a bit better, for a

relatively small amount of money in the overall budget, what is wrong

with that? I'm agreeing with you but I want to see the exact detail. We

all know that cheese for two dependent on two or three particular

industries. Let's get some infrastructure development money

into there. The Labour Party is supporting, obviously, the return of

the institutions and Stormont, we want to see it back up and running,

but we know there is a vote on Wednesday night, the key vote on the

Queen's Speech on Thursday, and Northern Ireland questions coming up

as well. The clock is ticking. You mentioned the possibility of talks

taking place in Belfast over the weekend - the Government is very

clear, Iain Duncan Smith could not have been more clear, on behalf of

the Conservative Party, its impartiality in the Stormont talks,

not compromised one iota by these negotiations, do you accept that? I

find that almost an impossible position to justify. I think it is

going to be profoundly difficult. I think there has to be implicitly and

explicitly within any agreement made, it has to be spelt out how the

Government, as one of the Koh guarantors of the Good Friday

Agreement, can be completely impartial on this one. I am not

saying it is not impossible, but it is going to be very difficult and we

have to see the detail. Thank you very much for joining us. The DUP

has claimed the Government has agreed to improve the treatment of

military veterans in Northern Ireland as part of any agreement for

the party's support. Iain Duncan Smith referred to it earlier. The

party has pointed to a section of the Queen's Speech yesterday,

claiming it committed to seeing the covenant implemented all over the

UK. Welcome to you both. The DUP is claiming it was responsible for that

paragraph in the Queen's Speech about ensuring the military covenant

is extended to Northern Ireland - do you welcome that? Very much so. It

has been a low-level unionist demand for years, and it has suddenly come

to the surface. And I think it is really significant as a statement of

intent for two reasons. The first is that some of these reports about the

money, of course they're going to try and get some more money and we

would all welcome that, have been quite alarming. Reports of Downing

Street phone calls not being answered and so on. They may or may

not be correct. What we don't want is the rest of the UK to think that

Northern Ireland is just take, take, take, but it is give-and-take. Since

the creation of Northern Ireland, we have obviously contributed to the

Armed Forces, most notably during the Second World War. So I think

that that's significant. The other thing that I think is significant

about this is that this is a move towards the DUP beginning to make

demands. However, we ended up in this situation, where Sinn Fein can

have long lists of demands, it is almost a defeatist mindset? Unionism

has not been making demands. This is a very reasonable demand Kirkuk

you've got serious reservations, on the other hand, why so? What we're

seeing is a situation where one group of victims are going to be

elevated with their needs above all others. We have committed as a

society since to a process under the Stormont agreement, where we will

endeavour to meet the differing needs of victims of society. And

this is a unilateral move to say, these set of victims are more

important than others, and it feeds a narrative which says that the

British state is really in denial of its role in the conflict, in denial

of its role in ensuring that the Stormont agreement mechanisms

happen, and that they have been at the heart of the problems in the

information of the Stormont house agreement. It really comes together

to give you one broad picture. Doesn't it simply balance up and

bring into line the position of veterans in Northern Ireland

compared to the rest of the United Kingdom? What it does is, it ignores

the legacy of British state violence and collusion in this part of the

world. It ignores that they have had a significant role and they were one

of the combatants to the conflict. And that we as a society are trying

to work our way through that. We recognise all victims, all of the

combatants, and that they all have obligations to restore the dignity

of truth, justice and reparation to the victims that live here. And

instead we are renovating one section above the others. So it

creates a hierarchy of victims? It is definitely a sensitive thing. We

are going to have irreconcilably different views of the legacy of the

security forces. I think that they acted with extraordinary restraint

overall and that they prevented civil war, but we are not going to

agree on that, we should not even try to agree on that. But I think

there is not much opposition from Republicans and there is none,

essentially, to the fact that there are servicemen and women today

losing their limbs in other parts of the world in the British forces,

here, northern Irish people, that is. So I think we really ought to be

able to agree about this. It is a fundamental thing that somebody who

risks their life for their country should be very well treated by that

society, particularly the 21st century. Western society, we have

had appalling tragedies... For example, the MOD, to make sure that

veterans who are injured are properly treated, but budget should

come from the MOD rather than the Department of Health? Why can't we

do...? I was in America a few months ago and we had to wait while

military veterans boarded the plane first, disabled people. Why can't we

have the same arrangement as the rest of the UK? There is a thing

that I think Republicans have to accept, they can't turn Northern

Ireland into a neutral place, where the only British aspect is that

Britain pays the bills. There are consequences that come from us being

in the UK, and this is a totally reasonable consequence, looking

after our veterans the Government do you believe that you've got

irreconcilable differences, or is there perhaps a bit of common ground

somewhere? I don't think anyone would deny that people who have lost

limbs or need to have equal access to appropriate care... But isn't

this all about that? It isn't, because we're saying there should be

one group of people who should be fast tracked into that care. People

who are arguing for a pension for the injured of the conflict, who

have really been treated very shabbily, if they saw one group

being further accelerated into a special scheme, that would really

cause harm. What has to be remembered is that when people at

home and have been harmed see that there is a group of victims being

elevated for special status, it isn't that those people don't

deserve support, whether it is for PTSD or physical needs, whatever, it

is that everyone needs an equal playing field. No-one won this

conflict. With all need to engage in the processes of dealing with the

past. And the British state has to stop pretending that it was neutral

in this place and that they have questions to answer. Right now they

are not even delivering truth and justice. And then put that alongside

impunity, put that alongside this very remarkable statement by Iain

Duncan Smith tonight, where he completely ignores the fact that

they were players in this conflict. And I think you have a very

distressing situation. Until these issues of legacy are resolved, this

kind of issue, whether or not the military government should be

extended to veterans in Northern Ireland, is going to continue to be

a major sticking point? I think that's right. And I certainly

wouldn't deny the sensitivities of its. There are a lot of... Do you

have any sympathy for that position? I have a lot of sympathy for the

fact that there are some people who are going to be hostile for the

British army, for many decades to come. People who were harmed by

them. The highest number of killings by the British army was before 1973,

when the state didn't really know what it was doing, and when we were

on the verge of civil war. That's 45 years ago now. And I think that...

This kind of thing would have been extremely difficult, all sorts of

things would have been unthinkable, decades ago. So I think now, well

into the 21st century, this is the time to do this the Government final

sentence? The British Government are signatories to large, international

conventions on the delivery of rights to victims and survivors, and

they are sidestepping it and ignoring it. Thank you overview very

much for coming in. Let's find out what our commentators think about

what we have been discussing. Listening intently have been Newton

Emerson and Professor Deirdre Heenan. Let's talk about Westminster

first of all. Do you think that a deal at Westminster between the DUP

and the Conservatives is inevitable at this stage? I think it's

inevitable, I think it was interesting listening to Iain Duncan

Smith saying that the deal doesn't matter in terms of devolved issues,

it doesn't impact on neutrality. But many of the issues that are being

talked about R devolved issues - housing, health, in particular. And

I was struck by what John said, regardless of whether it is ?1

billion or ?2 billion, if this money is not transformational money, money

to make our system sustainable, then all we are doing is delaying the

problems for a short period of time. I think if money is coming to

Northern Ireland, there has to be a can that the report is implemented,

that we look at our education system, we look at the empty desks,

we look at reconfiguring the services, rather than putting more

money into a system that's broken. What did you make of Iain Duncan

Smith's comments that the Barnett Formula does not apply? Well, he's

going to have to say that. Is he right? It is a convention, it is not

a law. If we were to observe the convention, everyone pounds extra

spent here would mean 35 has to be found for the rest of the UK. Of

course, they can get around it. Do you think that the DUP has

potentially overplayed its hand in these negotiations? It has, that is

undoubtedly true. People were starting to talk in the party about

how much they really need a deal. I think they will come home with a bag

of money, certainly. Do you think, everybody is talking about ?2

billion, now we are told that maybe it is more like ?750 million? We are

hearing all sorts of things, but the reality is, everybody knows that the

DUP do not want Jeremy Corbyn in No 10, so in reality, they will

probably support the Tories. To the Tories need them? I don't think they

do. It would be nice to know they are there, but the reality is, there

can vote with them. The thing is, if they bring home the money, we need a

devolved government to administer the money, otherwise what happens,

British ministers decide where the money is going to go? I think it was

John Major who brought this up, whether or not the Tories in fact

need the DUP, it seems it had not really crossed their minds after

that point? Well, they do need them to get through one vote after

another. The DUP can make life very difficult for the Tories. She can

make the Tories' life miserable, is a time when they do not have the

time or the energy to put up with it. So, they have the capacity to

extract something from the Government. Yeah, because it is a

vote-by-vote basis, there can be a thorn in their side throughout the

process. I think the difficulty is, we've heard so much, and we're told

that these two recesses aren't linked - they clearly are. I would

have thought they would be saying to the DUP, it is your responsibility

to get back to Northern Ireland and get those devolved structures up and

working recovered as all of this leave the Stormont negotiations?

Back where they were originally, I think, with a deal likely in the

autumn. No chance for next week? I would have thought that was

completely impossible. They're talking to nitrogen they have to say

that there's some hope, but why would you rush to deal when there is

so much up in the air London? Why would you bend over backwards to get

Stormont up and running next week, when it is about 2-shot for two

months? The focus is on London, and that is understandable. But our

waiting lists are getting longer, we have the worst child health in

Europe, and everything that needs to be addressed is again not addressed.

It is very interesting, all of this, and we have another programme to

look at it in more detail next Thursday night. That's it from The

View this week. Join me for Sunday Politics. Now that the DUP is in the

UK spotlight, our colleagues on the one Show decided to give viewers

across the water a different take. Thanks for watching. Good night. DUP

voters are very partial to a flag and a March and are socially very

conservative. Despite the peace, Northern Ireland is still a deeply

divided place. If we want to know how many Protestants and Catholics

there are here, we don't have a census, we have an election! A deal

with the DUP could lead to some financial benefits for Northern

Ireland. We don't know exactly what has been agreed. But what we can say

is that just because the DUP have Theresa May over a barrel, we do

hope they don't use that to extort every single last penny they can!

It's Arlene Foster... Do you fancy a hospital or a motorway? One of each!

One of