20/01/2016 The Wales Report


20/01/2016

The Wales Report with Huw Edwards returns for 2016. The opening episode explores the impact of the sanctions regime on vulnerable people in Wales.


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Transcript


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Tonight, sanctions on benefits. We report on concerns that the biggest

:00:00.:00:14.

impact is being felt by the most vulnerable in society. Is there any

:00:15.:00:19.

long-term future for steel-making in Wales? We consider the implications

:00:20.:00:25.

of the latest job losses. And our school children being taught enough

:00:26.:00:28.

about the history of Wales? My grandfather used to say you can't

:00:29.:00:30.

beat history and he is right. Tonight we will be looking at the

:00:31.:00:48.

future of the steel industry in Wales, if there is a long-term

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future that is, following news of big job losses this week mostly in

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Port Talbot. A major talking point and you can join the conversation on

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social media. Let's talk about the effect of benefits sanctions imposed

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by Westminster. This is where people get some benefits stopped for a time

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if they do not meet conditions such as attending appointments are going

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on courses. The rate of sanctions on people with mental health problems

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has doubled in four years and has risen at a higher rate in Wales than

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the British average. Felicity Wills as spoken to one woman who has

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struggled with their sanctions system.

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Jane claims employment and support allowance, a benefit that recognises

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your ability to work is limited because of ill health or disability.

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Jane is not her real name. Jane has depression and anxiety. Last January

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she was told she was being sanctioned but said she could not

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understand why. After deductions, she had ?12 per week to live on. How

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did you manage? I didn't, if you know what I mean. Whatever it took

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for me to live, I did. Are you in debt? Massively. Finds, warrants, TV

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licence. I could not bargain with anyone because I had no money to do

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so. What impact did it have on your mental health? It made that anxiety

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worse. I could not get up, sometimes I couldn't even wash my face, open

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the curtains, and that's how I became. Every week without and one

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week worse than the other, then one week goes to a month and so on. It

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has been that long it becomes normal in the end, I suppose. It is

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inhumane. Nobody can live on those amounts of money. This case is not

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unusual. The rate of people with mental health problems being

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sanctioned has risen in Wales and many of those people find it

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difficult to make sense of the system. What often happens is that

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there is confusion about why the person has been sanctioned or just

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why their benefit has stopped and sometimes sanctions can run for a

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very long time without the situation being sorted out. I came across a

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case last year were somebody had been sanctioned for five months

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although according to the book she should only have been sanctioned for

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one month. We are talking about a system which is not only very severe

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but also very badly administered, so lots of things go wrong which result

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in people suffering more severe penalties than are laid down in the

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law. Charities supporting people with mental health conditions said

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they are worried the pressure of the sanctions regime is having a

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counter-productive thing on the welfare of claimants and their

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ability to find work. We have seen many cases where people have made

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progress with support, improving their mental health, and then they

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have been hit by a sanction or work capability assessment and they have

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gone back to use in terms of progress and they have to go back on

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support just to get them on the place they were two years ago. It is

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worrying because it is having a tremendous and packed on lives. The

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fact the number of people with mental health problems in sanctioned

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as rising is no surprise to those who help them navigate the benefit

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system. Organisations like Citizens Advice Bureau provide advice for

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people. They say the people they help with mental health problems

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often struggle with the demands it places on them. Any time of squeezed

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public finances there is a limit to help they can give. A large

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proportion of sanctions seem to fall on mental health claimants.

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Basically because of the understanding of the system and what

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they have to do to fulfil their commitment and the action plan

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agreed by the job centre. Maybe there is also a case that job centre

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staff could be more sympathetic perhaps and perhaps undergo training

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so they fully understand what mental health claimants go through. Some

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people say that mental health claimants should not be subject to

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sanctions at all because the benefit is supposed to recognise people who

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are ill. There is no evidence to support the British systems of

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sanctions for employment and support allowance claimants. These are

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people who are officially acknowledged to be too ill to work

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and there is no research evidence at all to indicate that a sanctions

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system for them does anything whatsoever to get them into jobs.

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Jane says she was close to giving up hope of ever getting her benefits

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reinstated but her support worker eventually managed to solve the

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problem. It emerged that she had been unfairly sanctioned. In

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November last year, her payments arrears dated -- were reinstated and

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she had backdated payments but she says she has additional costs in

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fines and court fees and her financial problems continue. The

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back payments to not matter because things have gone too far. In an out

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of court, bailiffs, everything. Though bills are so high now. What

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reason did they have for making my head go a bit funny? It is fighting

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a losing battle, banging your head on a brick wall, it makes you

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mentally unstable. It is constant and no one has answers. It feels

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personal, like they have something against you. That was Jane talking

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to my colleague Felicity Evans. The Minister of State for Employment was

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unavailable for interview today but a spokesperson told us that

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significant improvements have been made to the assessment process and

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the percentage of people with mental health conditions who get the

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highest level of support, they say, has more than tripled since 2010.

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And less than 1% of yes a claimants are sanctioned for a month and the

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number of sanctions has fallen by 20% from last year. Let's go to

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Westminster and speak to the Conservative MP Craig Williams who

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is on the work and pensions select committee. The case study points out

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clear weaknesses in the system. Would you acknowledge that? Yes and

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I think the committee has done some work into this but what I will say

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for the department is they have allocated an extra ?40 million to

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help particularly people with mental health, to help with the training,

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and I think a point about people with experience within the NHS and

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having seen a consultant or doctor or someone with medical

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qualifications about how that links in with works and pensions so when

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you go to the job centre and you see someone for your assessment, we

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should trust what comes from the NHS, and hopefully that would make

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the process simpler and protect more vulnerable people. Quite a few

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strong statements in the piece. I'm thinking of the words of the expert

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from the University of Glasgow, that there is no academic research to

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suggest these kinds of sanctions work with people with these

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conditions, that they actually make things worse and increasing their

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mental health -- ill-health. I think there is evidence out there about

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the sanctions mentality and I think the report I had access to before

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this report from the churches, there is a danger of chucking the baby out

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with the bath water. We have to look at sanctions, and it clearly is

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working. 100,000 people in Wales are on yes a -- ESA and mental health is

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a small part of it. But every case we have heard there shouldn't be

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happening. We must look at how we can proactively help. Sitting on the

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committee after the Oakley review, it set some real recommendations.

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The system is changing and the one thing with universal credit coming

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around is you will be allocated a work coach. It is not a panacea but

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it means people will have individual people looking after them throughout

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the whole process and you get to know the client, the customer,

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whatever you call it in terms of the job centre, and you can help them

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through and protect them. I will come back to the fundamental point

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which lots of people make, if you have dental health issues, this

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approach of putting sanctions, adding financial pressure, giving

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you more worries and financial anxiety, is counter-productive. It

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doesn't solve anything and it makes the problem worse. It is a flawed

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approach. You do not seem to recognise you are dealing with

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extremely vulnerable people. I do accept it. ESA is in two categories.

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When you are work capable it is sanctions. But there is the other

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category that people with severe mental health issues or even with

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anxiety which is important with all this paperwork and pressure, they

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should not be in that category. You can work within the current system

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and that is my comment about chucking the baby out with the bath

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water. The investment that work and pensions is making and the reviews

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that the committee are making are going to the heart of this. I don't

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accept we should instantly say nobody and just categorise because

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the whole point about mental health and other disabilities and

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challenges within this sector is it is an individual case and the case

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study we just heard was incredibly emotive and I am sorry and we should

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be doing more to help people but you cannot generalise and that is my

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dispute with the academic. What one change to the sanctions process

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would you make? What I touched on at the beginning, getting people that

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have health qualifications, consultants, if someone comes in, in

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terms of my work as an MP, helping people with tribunal 's and

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challenging sanctions when they have clear medical evidence and it is

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getting it to the job centre and work and pensions, and it is all

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about data-sharing and making sure we protect the most vulnerable when

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there is clear evidence there. What is the most important thing, in your

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view, is to save money or actually to get people back into work? What

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is driving this change? Getting people back to work. The work and

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pensions spent is about ?4 billion but it is not just about saving

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money it is about --, it is about breaking a generational thing.

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Getting in and helping people to have opportunities to get into work.

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If you look at the people in ESA alone, the Oakley review found 83%

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of those surveyed said the sanctions system was right and it encouraged

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them to get opportunities. The DWP statistics were around 60%. 83%

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saying the sanctions helped and motivated them is great. Thanks very

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much for talking to us. Today has seen the first meeting of a Welsh

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government task force set up to support people affected by the Tata

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Steel announcements, the bulk of it in Wales. 750 jobs to go in Port

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Talbot while 200 support staff elsewhere will also lose their jobs.

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Since last summer, almost 5000 steel jobs have been lost in Britain. Just

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to remind you, at its peak, 18,000 people were employed in Port Talbot,

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earning the town the famous nickname the city of steel. The UK Government

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say they are working with Tata Steel and local communities to get people

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the training and assistance they need to find work but the Welsh

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government believes there is more that can be done.

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We will do everything we can but the fundamental questions go far beyond

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the devolved responsibilities. I now call on the UK Government to step up

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and play its part. Now is the time for swift and decisive action. So

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let's talk a little more. I'm joined by Professor Kent Matthews from the

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Cardiff business School. There's a sense in some quarters we are

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frankly helpless and powerless to do anything in the face of these big

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global economic forces, but first of all, are these forces so powerful

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that we are helpless in the face of them. We are just small players in

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the face of global supply and demand and there is very little we can do.

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In the long term, not much things we can do. If this was oil we wouldn't

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be saying we have to do something to shore up the price of oil, or if it

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was call, so there are long-term forces which we have to learn to

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deal with. What could be done in a Welsh context? I think first of all

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infrastructure projects. We need to be making sure that Welsh steel is

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used in such projects. We don't agree with the that the Welsh

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government want to take but Welsh steel was being used and utilised in

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cases like the M4. We have also said we want to setup a not-for-profit

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energy companies to reinvest in the Welsh energy sector. Sweden and

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Norway and other countries do that well. We need to be looking at

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business rates in Wales. We recently got the power to vary business rates

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but the Welsh government are still sitting on that and that a year

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level we need to be much more robust in terms of the tariffs that could

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be put on other countries such as China and limiting how they are

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bumping the steel and also measures when they put those tariffs on

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countries like China. Just on these practical things when

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you look at trying to do something this is one of the big elements, the

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fact that British industry and certainly steel-making says we are

:16:40.:16:44.

paying because of our support for renewable energy, a much higher

:16:45.:16:46.

premium. Would that make a difference? If that premium wasn't

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clear wouldn't make a big difference to steel-making? Would make it a

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much easier business to start a factor in support? The thing is that

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in the long term we are talking about global forces and prices. Many

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of the things that have been mentioned just now and short-term

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effect and I think that is valid, and valuable. But you are in breach

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of European competition law most of the time and that is the problem

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that we face. If you were to have an infrastructure project, you can only

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insist that the public sector by Welsh and British Steel. You can't

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ask the private sector to do that and putting tariffs on Chinese steel

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doesn't make any difference in a single country context, because this

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is again a world problem. It is the world price. Chinese steel will go

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elsewhere if you put it harder for net and it is not as if we are just

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buying Chinese steel and that will still have a depressing effect on

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the world price of steel elsewhere, so whatever happens the price of

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steel has fallen. If you look at the charts there has been a dramatic

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fall and there is nothing we can do about this because there is a fallen

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world demand and a huge excess capacity in Chinese production.

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There are various inventive ways to do that but it is a short-term

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effect. Unless you keep building more and more infrastructure forever

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and keep on insisting on paying a premium above that of work prices at

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some point of time this has to come to an end. What you're doing is

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actually taking away the pain and making it easier to get to that

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point were eventually some adjustment has to be taken.

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Some viewers are listening and saying that this guy is discussing

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these forces are so great you can take some measures which might

:20:03.:20:04.

alleviate things but you are saying there is no real future as things

:20:05.:20:10.

stand for steel-making in Britain. I am not saying that but there is a

:20:11.:20:13.

depression in world demand under that carries on down there is no

:20:14.:20:20.

problem here but there is a problem that we can do much about it. There

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is domestic demand and you can increase demand for domestic

:20:28.:20:30.

production and there is a limit to that. You can't carry on doing that

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forever. Thank you both for coming in and we'll look forward to seeing

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what the working party does. Schoolchildren in Wales are not

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being taught enough about their own history according to a report

:20:44.:20:45.

written for the Welsh government more than 2.5 years ago. And now

:20:46.:20:51.

there are concerns about the lack of progress. The actor Johnny Owen

:20:52.:20:56.

returned home to Merthyr Tydfil to explain why the town's passed is

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worth learning about. This is the town where I was born

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and grew up. My friends are still here and it has been called one of

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the most important towns in German history. If you had told me when I

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was a school kid, I would probably have choked on my toast, but this is

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one of the birthplaces of the Industrial Revolution. So where to

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start? How about the last bearded man to lead the Labour Party. He

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hasn't thought this thing through very carefully. No, not him. Keir

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Hardie, Labour's first ever MP made many a rousing speech from this very

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balcony. Not only that, the red flag of revolution was raised for the

:21:45.:21:51.

first time during the Merthyr rising when workers demanded better pay and

:21:52.:21:59.

conditions. We need more than a pub sign to remind us of that. Merthyr

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is the love stories like this that can inspire land reform and

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ultimately build you but you have to learn about them first. I want to

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find out if that is happening, whether kids really get the

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importance of their own history and what has really shaped the

:22:18.:22:21.

communities they live in. I have come back to where I went to school.

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I am going to talk to some of the GCSE students about what they learn

:22:25.:22:36.

in history class. You look very smart! That was my uniform, that

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was! I am from Merthyr, born and bred. I would be interested to find

:22:44.:22:47.

out, if you travel anywhere in the country or abroad, and you say you

:22:48.:22:51.

are from Merthyr, how do people react? A lot of people think drugs

:22:52.:23:00.

and alcohol and benefits, but the culture and history is brilliant.

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Merthyr was nothing before the Industrial Revolution and now it has

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got this reputation. It has still got that proud heritage we now have.

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I think if Merthyr can get a proud heritage like that then so can I.

:23:17.:23:19.

People need to learn more about what have people have done in the past in

:23:20.:23:24.

Merthyr and Wales and think to themselves, I do not have to move

:23:25.:23:27.

away to make a difference to the world. Their view goal. You just

:23:28.:23:33.

have to listen to that and you can see how the kids are. You just don't

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see that on other programmes, intelligent and bright and they have

:23:39.:23:41.

got all of their lives in front of them. They should have been inspired

:23:42.:23:47.

by what can happen in Merthyr before because they can achieve great

:23:48.:23:50.

things. They should know they can achieve anything. Really important.

:23:51.:23:58.

Merthyr is my patch but every part of Wales has its own part to play in

:23:59.:24:02.

our history. Surely our kids have the right to know it isn't just

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about kings and queens. It is about what happened on their doorsteps,

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the generations that went before them. The unions used to teach

:24:11.:24:15.

people there has to be at know it has to be about the education

:24:16.:24:17.

system. My grandfather used to say to me you

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cannot beat her stay and he is right. The sense of community forged

:24:21.:24:25.

by our forefathers can never be beaten. As long as we don't forget

:24:26.:24:29.

that. I believe it is the job of our schools to ensure that never

:24:30.:24:33.

happens. That was a very clear message and

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with me in the studio is Doctor Sian Williams from Cardiff Metropolitan

:24:40.:24:46.

University. Thank you for coming in. Those children in Merthyr made some

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interesting points. What are they learning in terms of Welsh history

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and are in the right place? I think it varies from school to school. The

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curriculum as it has been since 2008 emphasises on paper that it is

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supposed to be from the perspective of Wales and Britain within the

:25:04.:25:07.

wider world. But that doesn't happen across the board from my experience

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and also from the evidence we had when we had the finishing grip

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responding to the government back in 2013. I think it is variable. That

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is a bit depressing and if I think about my time in school all those

:25:27.:25:29.

years ago, Welsh history was seen as a bit of an eccentric ad on. Things

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are changing and what is important is a recognition now that we have

:25:37.:25:40.

got communities that were forged as part of key historical events, and

:25:41.:25:44.

we have got to in some ways relearn what those events world and make

:25:45.:25:48.

sure that pupils in those communities and the schools actually

:25:49.:25:52.

understand it and take pride in their communities but understand how

:25:53.:25:54.

those events have actually shaped their lives today. The new

:25:55.:26:01.

curriculum, I think there's a new confidence that partly comes from

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the devolution process as well, that we have actually got to have Welsh

:26:05.:26:11.

history not in isolation, as part of Britain and the world, but if we

:26:12.:26:14.

don't know our own local has if we don't know what we have contributed

:26:15.:26:19.

to the world... I think everyone would be understanding that and the

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point I would make is FB progress has been not satisfactory so far,

:26:23.:26:28.

what are the reasons for that? What is blocking that progress. There are

:26:29.:26:32.

several reasons and I think they are quite complex but I agree with you

:26:33.:26:37.

that local history is sometimes well-known locally and that is

:26:38.:26:41.

important but what is not as well taught as the links that are made

:26:42.:26:47.

between the local, the National, the entire relationship with other

:26:48.:26:52.

nations and the wider world. Is that going to a lack of expertise? The

:26:53.:26:57.

subject knowledge among teachers is one of the barriers and I think if

:26:58.:27:00.

you have really good subject knowledge and something you can be

:27:01.:27:05.

confident, you can bring in anecdotes, you can see which

:27:06.:27:07.

resources to select and make it interesting. I look through my

:27:08.:27:14.

constituency and see the history of William Price. Sometimes what is not

:27:15.:27:17.

understood as the importance of those events and the way the impact

:27:18.:27:24.

of the laws and society at the time. Some fantastically important

:27:25.:27:26.

political decisions made to legislation and the formation of the

:27:27.:27:30.

Labour Party. We can know very little about it. Our schools

:27:31.:27:35.

themselves should cover not just what happened that those events but

:27:36.:27:38.

what they actually meant and how those events have changed their

:27:39.:27:42.

lives today, and it is bring about that knowledge which is important

:27:43.:27:45.

and our schools. What could make a big difference in terms of not just

:27:46.:27:50.

the way the subject is taught in schools but the leadership given.

:27:51.:27:54.

You have been an influential position, what is going on in terms

:27:55.:27:59.

of encouraging teachers and schools to pursue this area more

:28:00.:28:03.

enthusiastically? I have been involved in teacher education and

:28:04.:28:05.

one of the things is to help teachers themselves", perhaps

:28:06.:28:11.

linking with other schools and having not so much advisers but

:28:12.:28:15.

people perhaps it can lead on which resources to use and how they might

:28:16.:28:23.

refocus some of their schemes of work to teach from a more Welsh

:28:24.:28:26.

perspective. There's another point you have raised in the past which is

:28:27.:28:31.

to do with the nature of the teaching, the flavour of the

:28:32.:28:34.

teaching to put it that way. What was your concern? My concern is

:28:35.:28:40.

history is really about people's lives, things that have shaped lives

:28:41.:28:45.

and society, and what we have done is romanticised history around kings

:28:46.:28:48.

and queens and princes and big battles and so on, and I think we

:28:49.:28:53.

have got to get history back into reality and what has Wales

:28:54.:28:58.

contributed. At the forefront of the Industrial Revolution, even sending

:28:59.:29:01.

people to different parts of the world, America and Australia.

:29:02.:29:07.

There's a whole history that I don't think we fully appreciate and

:29:08.:29:11.

understand, but we have got to get back in classrooms, because I think

:29:12.:29:16.

it gives young people pride in their communities, or pride about our

:29:17.:29:20.

place in the world. And they are fantastic stories as well and hugely

:29:21.:29:23.

enjoyable so nice to talk pupils. Thank you. If you'd like to get in

:29:24.:29:30.

touch with us e-mail us. Or you can follow us on social media. We will

:29:31.:29:36.

be back next week but until then, thanks for watching. Nos da, good

:29:37.:29:43.

night.

:29:44.:29:47.

The Wales Report with Huw Edwards returns for 2016. On this programme: as stats show the rate of sanctions on people with mental health problems has risen faster in Wales than the UK average, Huw explores the impact of the sanctions regime on vulnerable people. And is enough history from a Welsh perspective being taught in schools in Wales?


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