20/01/2016 The Wales Report

Tonight, sanctions on benefits. We report on concerns that the biggest

impact is being felt by the most vulnerable in society. Is there any

long-term future for steel-making in Wales? We consider the implications

of the latest job losses. And our school children being taught enough

about the history of Wales? My grandfather used to say you can't

beat history and he is right. Tonight we will be looking at the

future of the steel industry in Wales, if there is a long-term

future that is, following news of big job losses this week mostly in

Port Talbot. A major talking point and you can join the conversation on

social media. Let's talk about the effect of benefits sanctions imposed

by Westminster. This is where people get some benefits stopped for a time

if they do not meet conditions such as attending appointments are going

on courses. The rate of sanctions on people with mental health problems

has doubled in four years and has risen at a higher rate in Wales than

the British average. Felicity Wills as spoken to one woman who has

struggled with their sanctions system.

Jane claims employment and support allowance, a benefit that recognises

your ability to work is limited because of ill health or disability.

Jane is not her real name. Jane has depression and anxiety. Last January

she was told she was being sanctioned but said she could not

understand why. After deductions, she had ?12 per week to live on. How

did you manage? I didn't, if you know what I mean. Whatever it took

for me to live, I did. Are you in debt? Massively. Finds, warrants, TV

licence. I could not bargain with anyone because I had no money to do

so. What impact did it have on your mental health? It made that anxiety

worse. I could not get up, sometimes I couldn't even wash my face, open

the curtains, and that's how I became. Every week without and one

week worse than the other, then one week goes to a month and so on. It

has been that long it becomes normal in the end, I suppose. It is

inhumane. Nobody can live on those amounts of money. This case is not

unusual. The rate of people with mental health problems being

sanctioned has risen in Wales and many of those people find it

difficult to make sense of the system. What often happens is that

there is confusion about why the person has been sanctioned or just

why their benefit has stopped and sometimes sanctions can run for a

very long time without the situation being sorted out. I came across a

case last year were somebody had been sanctioned for five months

although according to the book she should only have been sanctioned for

one month. We are talking about a system which is not only very severe

but also very badly administered, so lots of things go wrong which result

in people suffering more severe penalties than are laid down in the

law. Charities supporting people with mental health conditions said

they are worried the pressure of the sanctions regime is having a

counter-productive thing on the welfare of claimants and their

ability to find work. We have seen many cases where people have made

progress with support, improving their mental health, and then they

have been hit by a sanction or work capability assessment and they have

gone back to use in terms of progress and they have to go back on

support just to get them on the place they were two years ago. It is

worrying because it is having a tremendous and packed on lives. The

fact the number of people with mental health problems in sanctioned

as rising is no surprise to those who help them navigate the benefit

system. Organisations like Citizens Advice Bureau provide advice for

people. They say the people they help with mental health problems

often struggle with the demands it places on them. Any time of squeezed

public finances there is a limit to help they can give. A large

proportion of sanctions seem to fall on mental health claimants.

Basically because of the understanding of the system and what

they have to do to fulfil their commitment and the action plan

agreed by the job centre. Maybe there is also a case that job centre

staff could be more sympathetic perhaps and perhaps undergo training

so they fully understand what mental health claimants go through. Some

people say that mental health claimants should not be subject to

sanctions at all because the benefit is supposed to recognise people who

are ill. There is no evidence to support the British systems of

sanctions for employment and support allowance claimants. These are

people who are officially acknowledged to be too ill to work

and there is no research evidence at all to indicate that a sanctions

system for them does anything whatsoever to get them into jobs.

Jane says she was close to giving up hope of ever getting her benefits

reinstated but her support worker eventually managed to solve the

problem. It emerged that she had been unfairly sanctioned. In

November last year, her payments arrears dated -- were reinstated and

she had backdated payments but she says she has additional costs in

fines and court fees and her financial problems continue. The

back payments to not matter because things have gone too far. In an out

of court, bailiffs, everything. Though bills are so high now. What

reason did they have for making my head go a bit funny? It is fighting

a losing battle, banging your head on a brick wall, it makes you

mentally unstable. It is constant and no one has answers. It feels

personal, like they have something against you. That was Jane talking

to my colleague Felicity Evans. The Minister of State for Employment was

unavailable for interview today but a spokesperson told us that

significant improvements have been made to the assessment process and

the percentage of people with mental health conditions who get the

highest level of support, they say, has more than tripled since 2010.

And less than 1% of yes a claimants are sanctioned for a month and the

number of sanctions has fallen by 20% from last year. Let's go to

Westminster and speak to the Conservative MP Craig Williams who

is on the work and pensions select committee. The case study points out

clear weaknesses in the system. Would you acknowledge that? Yes and

I think the committee has done some work into this but what I will say

for the department is they have allocated an extra ?40 million to

help particularly people with mental health, to help with the training,

and I think a point about people with experience within the NHS and

having seen a consultant or doctor or someone with medical

qualifications about how that links in with works and pensions so when

you go to the job centre and you see someone for your assessment, we

should trust what comes from the NHS, and hopefully that would make

the process simpler and protect more vulnerable people. Quite a few

strong statements in the piece. I'm thinking of the words of the expert

from the University of Glasgow, that there is no academic research to

suggest these kinds of sanctions work with people with these

conditions, that they actually make things worse and increasing their

mental health -- ill-health. I think there is evidence out there about

the sanctions mentality and I think the report I had access to before

this report from the churches, there is a danger of chucking the baby out

with the bath water. We have to look at sanctions, and it clearly is

working. 100,000 people in Wales are on yes a -- ESA and mental health is

a small part of it. But every case we have heard there shouldn't be

happening. We must look at how we can proactively help. Sitting on the

committee after the Oakley review, it set some real recommendations.

The system is changing and the one thing with universal credit coming

around is you will be allocated a work coach. It is not a panacea but

it means people will have individual people looking after them throughout

the whole process and you get to know the client, the customer,

whatever you call it in terms of the job centre, and you can help them

through and protect them. I will come back to the fundamental point

which lots of people make, if you have dental health issues, this

approach of putting sanctions, adding financial pressure, giving

you more worries and financial anxiety, is counter-productive. It

doesn't solve anything and it makes the problem worse. It is a flawed

approach. You do not seem to recognise you are dealing with

extremely vulnerable people. I do accept it. ESA is in two categories.

When you are work capable it is sanctions. But there is the other

category that people with severe mental health issues or even with

anxiety which is important with all this paperwork and pressure, they

should not be in that category. You can work within the current system

and that is my comment about chucking the baby out with the bath

water. The investment that work and pensions is making and the reviews

that the committee are making are going to the heart of this. I don't

accept we should instantly say nobody and just categorise because

the whole point about mental health and other disabilities and

challenges within this sector is it is an individual case and the case

study we just heard was incredibly emotive and I am sorry and we should

be doing more to help people but you cannot generalise and that is my

dispute with the academic. What one change to the sanctions process

would you make? What I touched on at the beginning, getting people that

have health qualifications, consultants, if someone comes in, in

terms of my work as an MP, helping people with tribunal 's and

challenging sanctions when they have clear medical evidence and it is

getting it to the job centre and work and pensions, and it is all

about data-sharing and making sure we protect the most vulnerable when

there is clear evidence there. What is the most important thing, in your

view, is to save money or actually to get people back into work? What

is driving this change? Getting people back to work. The work and

pensions spent is about ?4 billion but it is not just about saving

money it is about --, it is about breaking a generational thing.

Getting in and helping people to have opportunities to get into work.

If you look at the people in ESA alone, the Oakley review found 83%

of those surveyed said the sanctions system was right and it encouraged

them to get opportunities. The DWP statistics were around 60%. 83%

saying the sanctions helped and motivated them is great. Thanks very

much for talking to us. Today has seen the first meeting of a Welsh

government task force set up to support people affected by the Tata

Steel announcements, the bulk of it in Wales. 750 jobs to go in Port

Talbot while 200 support staff elsewhere will also lose their jobs.

Since last summer, almost 5000 steel jobs have been lost in Britain. Just

to remind you, at its peak, 18,000 people were employed in Port Talbot,

earning the town the famous nickname the city of steel. The UK Government

say they are working with Tata Steel and local communities to get people

the training and assistance they need to find work but the Welsh

government believes there is more that can be done.

We will do everything we can but the fundamental questions go far beyond

the devolved responsibilities. I now call on the UK Government to step up

and play its part. Now is the time for swift and decisive action. So

let's talk a little more. I'm joined by Professor Kent Matthews from the

Cardiff business School. There's a sense in some quarters we are

frankly helpless and powerless to do anything in the face of these big

global economic forces, but first of all, are these forces so powerful

that we are helpless in the face of them. We are just small players in

the face of global supply and demand and there is very little we can do.

In the long term, not much things we can do. If this was oil we wouldn't

be saying we have to do something to shore up the price of oil, or if it

was call, so there are long-term forces which we have to learn to

deal with. What could be done in a Welsh context? I think first of all

infrastructure projects. We need to be making sure that Welsh steel is

used in such projects. We don't agree with the that the Welsh

government want to take but Welsh steel was being used and utilised in

cases like the M4. We have also said we want to setup a not-for-profit

energy companies to reinvest in the Welsh energy sector. Sweden and

Norway and other countries do that well. We need to be looking at

business rates in Wales. We recently got the power to vary business rates

but the Welsh government are still sitting on that and that a year

level we need to be much more robust in terms of the tariffs that could

be put on other countries such as China and limiting how they are

bumping the steel and also measures when they put those tariffs on

countries like China. Just on these practical things when

you look at trying to do something this is one of the big elements, the

fact that British industry and certainly steel-making says we are

paying because of our support for renewable energy, a much higher

premium. Would that make a difference? If that premium wasn't

clear wouldn't make a big difference to steel-making? Would make it a

much easier business to start a factor in support? The thing is that

in the long term we are talking about global forces and prices. Many

of the things that have been mentioned just now and short-term

effect and I think that is valid, and valuable. But you are in breach

of European competition law most of the time and that is the problem

that we face. If you were to have an infrastructure project, you can only

insist that the public sector by Welsh and British Steel. You can't

ask the private sector to do that and putting tariffs on Chinese steel

doesn't make any difference in a single country context, because this

is again a world problem. It is the world price. Chinese steel will go

elsewhere if you put it harder for net and it is not as if we are just

buying Chinese steel and that will still have a depressing effect on

the world price of steel elsewhere, so whatever happens the price of

steel has fallen. If you look at the charts there has been a dramatic

fall and there is nothing we can do about this because there is a fallen

world demand and a huge excess capacity in Chinese production.

There are various inventive ways to do that but it is a short-term

effect. Unless you keep building more and more infrastructure forever

and keep on insisting on paying a premium above that of work prices at

some point of time this has to come to an end. What you're doing is

actually taking away the pain and making it easier to get to that

point were eventually some adjustment has to be taken.

Some viewers are listening and saying that this guy is discussing

these forces are so great you can take some measures which might

alleviate things but you are saying there is no real future as things

stand for steel-making in Britain. I am not saying that but there is a

depression in world demand under that carries on down there is no

problem here but there is a problem that we can do much about it. There

is domestic demand and you can increase demand for domestic

production and there is a limit to that. You can't carry on doing that

forever. Thank you both for coming in and we'll look forward to seeing

what the working party does. Schoolchildren in Wales are not

being taught enough about their own history according to a report

written for the Welsh government more than 2.5 years ago. And now

there are concerns about the lack of progress. The actor Johnny Owen

returned home to Merthyr Tydfil to explain why the town's passed is

worth learning about. This is the town where I was born

and grew up. My friends are still here and it has been called one of

the most important towns in German history. If you had told me when I

was a school kid, I would probably have choked on my toast, but this is

one of the birthplaces of the Industrial Revolution. So where to

start? How about the last bearded man to lead the Labour Party. He

hasn't thought this thing through very carefully. No, not him. Keir

Hardie, Labour's first ever MP made many a rousing speech from this very

balcony. Not only that, the red flag of revolution was raised for the

first time during the Merthyr rising when workers demanded better pay and

conditions. We need more than a pub sign to remind us of that. Merthyr

is the love stories like this that can inspire land reform and

ultimately build you but you have to learn about them first. I want to

find out if that is happening, whether kids really get the

importance of their own history and what has really shaped the

communities they live in. I have come back to where I went to school.

I am going to talk to some of the GCSE students about what they learn

in history class. You look very smart! That was my uniform, that

was! I am from Merthyr, born and bred. I would be interested to find

out, if you travel anywhere in the country or abroad, and you say you

are from Merthyr, how do people react? A lot of people think drugs

and alcohol and benefits, but the culture and history is brilliant.

Merthyr was nothing before the Industrial Revolution and now it has

got this reputation. It has still got that proud heritage we now have.

I think if Merthyr can get a proud heritage like that then so can I.

People need to learn more about what have people have done in the past in

Merthyr and Wales and think to themselves, I do not have to move

away to make a difference to the world. Their view goal. You just

have to listen to that and you can see how the kids are. You just don't

see that on other programmes, intelligent and bright and they have

got all of their lives in front of them. They should have been inspired

by what can happen in Merthyr before because they can achieve great

things. They should know they can achieve anything. Really important.

Merthyr is my patch but every part of Wales has its own part to play in

our history. Surely our kids have the right to know it isn't just

about kings and queens. It is about what happened on their doorsteps,

the generations that went before them. The unions used to teach

people there has to be at know it has to be about the education

system. My grandfather used to say to me you

cannot beat her stay and he is right. The sense of community forged

by our forefathers can never be beaten. As long as we don't forget

that. I believe it is the job of our schools to ensure that never

happens. That was a very clear message and

with me in the studio is Doctor Sian Williams from Cardiff Metropolitan

University. Thank you for coming in. Those children in Merthyr made some

interesting points. What are they learning in terms of Welsh history

and are in the right place? I think it varies from school to school. The

curriculum as it has been since 2008 emphasises on paper that it is

supposed to be from the perspective of Wales and Britain within the

wider world. But that doesn't happen across the board from my experience

and also from the evidence we had when we had the finishing grip

responding to the government back in 2013. I think it is variable. That

is a bit depressing and if I think about my time in school all those

years ago, Welsh history was seen as a bit of an eccentric ad on. Things

are changing and what is important is a recognition now that we have

got communities that were forged as part of key historical events, and

we have got to in some ways relearn what those events world and make

sure that pupils in those communities and the schools actually

understand it and take pride in their communities but understand how

those events have actually shaped their lives today. The new

curriculum, I think there's a new confidence that partly comes from

the devolution process as well, that we have actually got to have Welsh

history not in isolation, as part of Britain and the world, but if we

don't know our own local has if we don't know what we have contributed

to the world... I think everyone would be understanding that and the

point I would make is FB progress has been not satisfactory so far,

what are the reasons for that? What is blocking that progress. There are

several reasons and I think they are quite complex but I agree with you

that local history is sometimes well-known locally and that is

important but what is not as well taught as the links that are made

between the local, the National, the entire relationship with other

nations and the wider world. Is that going to a lack of expertise? The

subject knowledge among teachers is one of the barriers and I think if

you have really good subject knowledge and something you can be

confident, you can bring in anecdotes, you can see which

resources to select and make it interesting. I look through my

constituency and see the history of William Price. Sometimes what is not

understood as the importance of those events and the way the impact

of the laws and society at the time. Some fantastically important

political decisions made to legislation and the formation of the

Labour Party. We can know very little about it. Our schools

themselves should cover not just what happened that those events but

what they actually meant and how those events have changed their

lives today, and it is bring about that knowledge which is important

and our schools. What could make a big difference in terms of not just

the way the subject is taught in schools but the leadership given.

You have been an influential position, what is going on in terms

of encouraging teachers and schools to pursue this area more

enthusiastically? I have been involved in teacher education and

one of the things is to help teachers themselves", perhaps

linking with other schools and having not so much advisers but

people perhaps it can lead on which resources to use and how they might

refocus some of their schemes of work to teach from a more Welsh

perspective. There's another point you have raised in the past which is

to do with the nature of the teaching, the flavour of the

teaching to put it that way. What was your concern? My concern is

history is really about people's lives, things that have shaped lives

and society, and what we have done is romanticised history around kings

and queens and princes and big battles and so on, and I think we

have got to get history back into reality and what has Wales

contributed. At the forefront of the Industrial Revolution, even sending

people to different parts of the world, America and Australia.

There's a whole history that I don't think we fully appreciate and

understand, but we have got to get back in classrooms, because I think

it gives young people pride in their communities, or pride about our

place in the world. And they are fantastic stories as well and hugely

enjoyable so nice to talk pupils. Thank you. If you'd like to get in

touch with us e-mail us. Or you can follow us on social media. We will

be back next week but until then, thanks for watching. Nos da, good

night.