27/01/2016 The Wales Report


27/01/2016

Bethan Rhys Roberts takes a look at issues that matter in Wales. Is business the new battleground between the UK government and the Welsh government?


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Tonight on the Wales Report: Is business the new battleground

:00:00.:00:00.

between the UK and Welsh Governments ahead of the Assembly

:00:00.:00:07.

We hear claims that the Welsh Government's tuition fees policy

:00:08.:00:13.

should governments intervene to change behaviour?

:00:14.:00:20.

This man is bringing "nudge" to Wales, and he thinks it

:00:21.:00:23.

Some of the great challenges of our time and behavioural science looks

:00:24.:00:34.

like it has something to say about that.

:00:35.:00:36.

On tonight's programme, if the recent job losses

:00:37.:00:46.

at Tata Steel in Port Talbot have taught us anything,

:00:47.:00:48.

it's that business here and the welsh economy are often

:00:49.:00:50.

There have been constant calls for the UK and Welsh governments

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to work together to give Wales a voice in the international

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So we ask to what extent, if at all, both administrations

:01:01.:01:07.

are co-operating for the sake of the Welsh economy.

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And you can join in the debate on social media - the hashtag

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Tonight, we hear frustrations among business leaders in Wales that

:01:15.:01:19.

delivering key infrastructure projects like the M4 relief road

:01:20.:01:21.

and improvements to the A55 in North Wales are taking

:01:22.:01:24.

Our Business correspondent, Brian Meechan, asks if political

:01:25.:01:29.

squabbles and point scoring too often get in the way of what's good

:01:30.:01:32.

In a global economy, business does not respect national boundaries. The

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Welsh border with England is open when it comes to trade with goods

:01:53.:01:57.

services and workers moving between the two countries daily. The

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question is our our politicians drawing false battle lines between

:02:02.:02:07.

the two sides? Here in Chepstow, Wales is separated from England by

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this river. It might seem perfectly tranquil but skirmishes between the

:02:13.:02:16.

UK and Welsh governments over education and health in recent years

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have caused tensions and ministers on both sides of the border say that

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they are the truly progress this governments. What is your plan for a

:02:29.:02:32.

stronger Wales? If after 16 years in power you cannot provide one thing

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quite simply it is time for a change. For the first time ever

:02:36.:02:40.

Wales is bouncing back from recession faster than regions of

:02:41.:02:45.

England. Employment is at a record high. Foreign direct investment is

:02:46.:02:50.

at record levels. That is what we can do as Labour in government. The

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Conservatives believe they can build on accusations that Labour under Ed

:02:55.:03:00.

Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn became anti-business and since the General

:03:01.:03:03.

Election that Carwyn Jones has been at pains to emphasise Welsh Labour's

:03:04.:03:11.

pro business position. If business is the new battle ground, what

:03:12.:03:16.

impact does that have on Wales? In terms of attracting companies and

:03:17.:03:19.

business to settle here and selling the country to the rest of the UK

:03:20.:03:25.

and the world. What do firms on the Welsh side of the border as they? A

:03:26.:03:30.

recent survey found that three quarters of people running companies

:03:31.:03:35.

thought devolution had failed to deliver. Mark Hooper agrees. He

:03:36.:03:40.

founded his company five years ago and the company provides space for

:03:41.:03:45.

start-up firms across Wales. I think they keeping from a business

:03:46.:03:49.

perspective is recognition from all sides that what has happened to

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Wales for too long is not working. The support that we have got is not

:03:54.:03:59.

driving business growth or GDA, so stop doing the things that do not

:04:00.:04:03.

work and perhaps listen to people who are making it happen and I would

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rather see politicians turn up and walk into places and start talking

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to entrepreneurs and that will make a difference. This man has become

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chair of CBI Wales this month and he says it is time for more frank

:04:18.:04:21.

talking from businesses. I know people are scared to speak out

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because when they do they are criticised. I will get criticised

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but we have to start doing things differently. CBI Wales is message in

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the run-up to the election is clear. Mike whose exports products

:04:36.:04:39.

worldwide says businesses are increasingly frustrated with both

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governments arguing about the NHS or devolving powers rather than dealing

:04:45.:04:49.

with issues like the M4 and Severn Bridge tolls. We have been obsessed

:04:50.:04:54.

by Wales in the context of Wales and not Wales in the context of the

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world. There seems to be fighting over what powers we have or have not

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got, we have lots of powers, use the ones we have got and make a

:05:03.:05:09.

difference. I think that politics is in a mess, it has got tangled up, it

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has not got much to do with the reality any more of what we in Wales

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need. Why are we not copying the best practice? Look that

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infrastructure and services, yes it is making it difficult for big

:05:24.:05:26.

companies to come here and I think that is really worrying but it will

:05:27.:05:30.

not take much, a bit of political courage and leadership and we can

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start reversing that and making it better. The former director of CBI

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Wales who was in post during the devolution referendum in 1997 says

:05:41.:05:43.

that governments need to provide stability. There are two things that

:05:44.:05:49.

business generally and individual businesses want and that is

:05:50.:05:54.

certainty, does not like lots of change and the second is it wants to

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make sure that all of the infrastructure around, whether it is

:06:00.:06:04.

transport or digital is in place so that it can continue to do its

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business and do its commerce and the lot of believers around,

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particularly true -- travel does not belong to the Welsh Government and

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it is taking far too long to try and deliver what we need to help to grow

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business in Wales. Yes, political issues and particularly the

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regularity of elections is always going to have an impact on those

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sorts of decisions but I think what is important is to have a strategic

:06:31.:06:34.

approach that you know where you're trying to get to even if there are

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delays in reaching that objective. As the election battle begins in

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earnest it may be too much to ask politicians to avoid point-scoring

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on major the clear message from businesses is that they need to be

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aware of the damage that can do to the country in the long term.

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Joining me now is Denise Lovering and Dan Langford. Thank you for

:06:59.:07:06.

coming in, Denise if I can start with you, as a businesswoman in

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Wales are you frustrated with both administrations? Yes. Business in

:07:14.:07:17.

Wales would like a level playing field, both sets of government to

:07:18.:07:20.

talk and do the same thing. If I could pick up on what Elizabeth said

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in the clip and Mike, transport is a prime example. There is no real

:07:27.:07:30.

physical barrier between Wales and England but we have so much problem

:07:31.:07:35.

with the Severn bridge and the M4 relief road, both governments could

:07:36.:07:40.

work together and do something now. What is the problem? Is a devolution

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or the system or the fact that there are different colours at both ends

:07:46.:07:50.

of the M4? They should overcome that, sort it out, business need you

:07:51.:07:55.

to be talking on the same sheet. Do you see it as black-and-white as

:07:56.:08:00.

that? Not quite. There is potentially an issue with devolution

:08:01.:08:03.

were we have to avoid the possibility of holding opportunities

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and new initiatives up because we are Wales and we have to rethink it

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again. Sometimes if there is closer negotiation and engagement between

:08:16.:08:18.

the two governments we might be able to get some decisions made quicker

:08:19.:08:21.

and that is where the frustration would be. It is not the projects, we

:08:22.:08:28.

are spending three years discussing the same thing. There are two sets

:08:29.:08:31.

of hands on the wheel. Does that mean that they cannot take their eye

:08:32.:08:36.

off the road because there is competition and it is good or does

:08:37.:08:41.

it lead to endless point-scoring? I think so. It causes total

:08:42.:08:47.

frustration. In business you cannot take time to decide, if you decide

:08:48.:08:51.

to do something by the very nature of the fact you're running a

:08:52.:08:54.

business and going forward, you have to make a decision quickly. Would it

:08:55.:08:59.

be easier to run your business in England? I have no knowledge of

:09:00.:09:01.

running their business in England apart from the fact we have depots

:09:02.:09:06.

in England and the only problem we have is paying the toll when they

:09:07.:09:11.

come back. I do not think it is that black-and-white, there are

:09:12.:09:14.

frustrations and we can take some of the major infrastructure projects

:09:15.:09:18.

from a business perspective we generally feel things are taking too

:09:19.:09:21.

long but there are lots of things that have been happening that had

:09:22.:09:25.

Devenney shown there is an engagement between the governments

:09:26.:09:28.

which have been good for Wales and we can talk about the work with the

:09:29.:09:34.

Cardiff City deal, there are lots of complexity is behind-the-scenes and

:09:35.:09:37.

there are bits of political posturing, but ultimately everyone

:09:38.:09:41.

is pointing in the same direction and trying to get this through as

:09:42.:09:44.

the Chancellor said before the March budget. The football European

:09:45.:09:50.

Championships in 2017 coming to Cardiff would not have happened

:09:51.:09:55.

without total engagement and dialogue between the two governments

:09:56.:09:59.

because some of the restrictions and recommendations, the requirement

:10:00.:10:02.

that Uefa needed, the Welsh Government is not in a position to

:10:03.:10:11.

give those. That is another debate. The big levers remain in

:10:12.:10:14.

Westminster, the smaller levers are here, would you like to see more

:10:15.:10:20.

leaders in Wales? That is a difficult question. I am not happy

:10:21.:10:24.

with the way they have use the leverage they have got. Devolving

:10:25.:10:28.

more powers I am not sure is very good. If ministers were here now,

:10:29.:10:33.

what do Welsh businesses need? What I would like to see is a commitment

:10:34.:10:38.

from the government who may be in power in Wales act are made to say

:10:39.:10:44.

that they will carry on with the M4 relief road. We have two sets of

:10:45.:10:48.

elections, we might have a referendum as well, there is a novel

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lot of electioneering on the calendar. And it is painful. The

:10:55.:10:59.

urgency, commitment, that is what we need. From both governments. Whether

:11:00.:11:06.

one government might be more in a position to get decision-making

:11:07.:11:09.

quicker than the other depending on the project, I do not know, but we

:11:10.:11:16.

need that urgency and conviction, the decision-making about the

:11:17.:11:18.

economy and infrastructure and business support will never please

:11:19.:11:21.

everyone, let us just get on with it, that is what we need. I think we

:11:22.:11:27.

have got so far, there has been engagement between the two

:11:28.:11:30.

governments, it has got better. There is still a way to go. There is

:11:31.:11:35.

still point-scoring going on and that should stop. Thank you both

:11:36.:11:49.

very much. We are looking at How Wales Works. Higher education has

:11:50.:11:54.

caused a great deal of controversy. Particularly Jewish and fees. The

:11:55.:11:58.

Welsh Education Minister has said he intends to keep tuition fee grants

:11:59.:12:02.

for Welsh tunes were they decide to study. That is despite concerns that

:12:03.:12:08.

the policy could be taking money away from universities here in

:12:09.:12:12.

Wales. The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales says there is less

:12:13.:12:20.

money in their budget to put towards Welsh institutions. During the

:12:21.:12:28.

academic year 2011 to 2012, Welsh universities got ?367 million. This

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year, that funding has dropped by more than half to 151 William

:12:33.:12:38.

pounds. That figure could drop further to ?87 million next year and

:12:39.:12:42.

this is all fuelling a fierce debate. In the last few days, the

:12:43.:12:48.

Education Minister pledged his continued support for the policy of

:12:49.:12:53.

subsidising tuition fees for Welsh students. It comes back to that

:12:54.:12:57.

principle, what are they primarily investing in and my argument would

:12:58.:13:02.

be that it is the life chances of the young person. That takes

:13:03.:13:08.

primacy, even over the very real priorities that you need to address

:13:09.:13:12.

around the institutions. The universities themselves. That did

:13:13.:13:18.

not please the vice Chancellor of the largest Welsh university.

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The policy I think is holding us back. There is a solution to that

:13:26.:13:32.

which we propose which just as maintenance grants and means tested

:13:33.:13:36.

goes to those who really need them the most, if you took the same

:13:37.:13:40.

approach to tuition fee grants, you could free up considerable funding

:13:41.:13:45.

to allow Welsh universities to compete in the same way as other

:13:46.:13:49.

universities in the UK and that is really critical to our future as a

:13:50.:13:54.

country. There is a concern this policy will have an increasing

:13:55.:14:02.

impact on Welsh universities. Student number controls have been

:14:03.:14:05.

removed. There is no limit to the Nebraska does that have -- that can

:14:06.:14:11.

go to university. And what that means is there is just not enough

:14:12.:14:14.

money to fund Welsh universities. The latest draft government budget

:14:15.:14:23.

proposals were in visiting a cut of 40% to funding for Welsh

:14:24.:14:27.

universities starting in August. We have had no one in this. We have to

:14:28.:14:35.

make plans to try to achieve that in a short timescale. It will cost

:14:36.:14:39.

jobs, affect students and staff within the university and it will

:14:40.:14:42.

cost jobs outside the university as well. We are told there is going to

:14:43.:14:48.

be a cut of 40%, it could be more, in the next year. We need to plan

:14:49.:14:51.

for that but we also need to plan for what comes afterwards. It would

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be very helpful if the government could be more specific about what is

:14:55.:14:57.

going to happen in the future and whatever happens to wish on fee

:14:58.:15:01.

grants, the critical part is the government needs to make sure that

:15:02.:15:07.

enough money is still available to fund all the areas that tuition fees

:15:08.:15:10.

cannot fund and that means they can sure that the funding is available

:15:11.:15:15.

for Welsh universities to be the great success they have been over

:15:16.:15:18.

the last few years. The future could at sea of the people of Wales relies

:15:19.:15:23.

on an economy and it is the universities that are building that

:15:24.:15:27.

economy. A Welsh Government spokesperson said there is no doubt

:15:28.:15:30.

we have had to make some tough decisions between -- within this

:15:31.:15:34.

budget and we recognise that a cut to HEFCW will present challenges.

:15:35.:15:58.

Joining me now is Nick Ramsay and Beth button. Why do you think that

:15:59.:16:05.

the current system is fair? The first question we have to ask

:16:06.:16:08.

ourselves is is it fair that students should be leaving with this

:16:09.:16:12.

amount of debt. Does the current system recognise that the benefits

:16:13.:16:18.

that a society and individuals get from higher education, the cost

:16:19.:16:22.

should be shared by the society and individual. It is good for Welsh

:16:23.:16:32.

students. Wherever they study, they get the money but what about the

:16:33.:16:34.

universities which suffer because lots of the money is going across

:16:35.:16:39.

the border? We need to be clear that this money is lost from

:16:40.:16:43.

universities. It is misleading. It makes sure that a student is making

:16:44.:16:47.

a choice that is right for them and not the cost. This idea, we have to

:16:48.:16:53.

be clear that issues of competitivity and quality existing

:16:54.:16:59.

before this was introduced. This idea of graduates going across the

:17:00.:17:02.

border, it is one we need to address but we should be supporting students

:17:03.:17:08.

and incentivising them to come back. Bringing them back and then we will

:17:09.:17:12.

see a return on that investment. Nick Ramsay, this division, if the

:17:13.:17:18.

money does go with the students across the border, it is not going

:17:19.:17:20.

to Welsh universities. It is misleading question mark no one

:17:21.:17:26.

wants students to be leaving university with debt. We want to

:17:27.:17:30.

keep that down but the policy is unsustainable. The review has

:17:31.:17:35.

revealed it will not be able to be continued beyond the next election

:17:36.:17:39.

for any length of time. We need to look now at ways of properly funding

:17:40.:17:43.

students in a way that will benefit them. The Welsh Conservatives would

:17:44.:17:50.

target the resources for those students that needed most. Whether

:17:51.:17:54.

they are studying in England or in Wales, we would make sure the

:17:55.:17:56.

students that need our support at it. Which is the system across the

:17:57.:18:03.

border, isn't it? We have seen the figures from a steady at Edinburgh

:18:04.:18:07.

University, retention and accesses broader in England than it is in

:18:08.:18:14.

Wales and Scotland. Actually some recent 's research shows that for

:18:15.:18:17.

the first time in many years the access has actually dropped in

:18:18.:18:25.

England as a result of the policy. Edinburgh University has found that

:18:26.:18:31.

access in England is better. We have to look at the access... It is

:18:32.:18:36.

targeted by a support system that enables choice for all students

:18:37.:18:39.

regardless of their background. Of course we think that targeting

:18:40.:18:43.

support where it is necessary is important but we have to look at it

:18:44.:18:48.

as a wider thing. It is not just about a tuition fee policy. We think

:18:49.:18:51.

the Welsh Government should go further. We want to see this

:18:52.:18:56.

principle extended through increased investment across the board. Maybe

:18:57.:19:00.

the Welsh Government have got it right. In an ideal world, I would

:19:01.:19:05.

agree with that but the funding simply is not there. We know that

:19:06.:19:08.

budgets are tight at the moment and over ?1 billion has gone into this

:19:09.:19:12.

policy. The many are simply not there. The other big to pick up on

:19:13.:19:18.

access in England, last week, the Westminster government scrapped the

:19:19.:19:21.

maintenance grants for the poorest students. They are now graduating

:19:22.:19:25.

with even more debt than their wealthier counterparts. That is

:19:26.:19:29.

actually a very important point. It is not just about tuition fees. A

:19:30.:19:34.

lot of students are suffering because of cuts to maintenance

:19:35.:19:39.

grants. We would be better off looking at tuition fees and looking

:19:40.:19:42.

at maintenance grants. If you were to win in May, your party, what sort

:19:43.:19:48.

of difference would students see question mark it would not be across

:19:49.:19:50.

the board coverage. We would target those students that need the

:19:51.:19:55.

support. Whether they are studying England and sometimes they have to

:19:56.:19:58.

because of the courses, or study on this side of the border, they would

:19:59.:20:03.

get the support. But we have to recognise we cannot fund everything.

:20:04.:20:06.

Is there not a danger you are being idealistic Castle Market if

:20:07.:20:13.

universities are going to see further cuts, where is the research

:20:14.:20:23.

going to happen? We are concerned about that. I think we have to

:20:24.:20:26.

recognise that there is a choice about where the money is invested in

:20:27.:20:34.

the budget. It would relieve this competition. I do not like the fact

:20:35.:20:36.

we are deciding whether higher education deserves a better cut --

:20:37.:20:41.

bigger cut this year or further education. It is a bit ago choice.

:20:42.:20:46.

It would enable us to direct investment into all forms of

:20:47.:20:50.

education. The student lobby is a powerful lobby. It is a very bold

:20:51.:20:59.

party that will mess with this lot. Yes, I think it probably is that at

:21:00.:21:02.

the end of the day, we are just being written -- realistic. The

:21:03.:21:05.

universities are saying this as well. They feel that they are not

:21:06.:21:10.

getting the sort of support they need. Hopefully we can come forward

:21:11.:21:16.

with a policy that will do the necessary.

:21:17.:21:25.

The Behavioural Insights Team, more widely known as the Nudge Unit,

:21:26.:21:29.

was set up by David Cameron back in 2010 to advise the Government

:21:30.:21:32.

on how to improve public services and save money.

:21:33.:21:34.

Applying insights from behavioural psychology, the team aims to give us

:21:35.:21:37.

all messages to help us make the best choices in many

:21:38.:21:40.

aspects of our lives, from getting a job to what we eat.

:21:41.:21:42.

And now the Welsh Government has asked the unit to start work here.

:21:43.:21:46.

In a moment, the Welsh Government minister responsible will be joining

:21:47.:21:48.

us, but first let's hear from the director of the unit,

:21:49.:21:51.

David Halpern, about the art of nudging.

:21:52.:21:57.

A lot of policy issues concern human behaviour.

:21:58.:21:59.

It is about people eating more healthily or committing less crime

:22:00.:22:02.

or being effective in schools, in terms of how hard kids study

:22:03.:22:04.

By introducing a more realistic of human behaviour,

:22:05.:22:08.

it often leads to different kinds of solutions which don't necessarily

:22:09.:22:10.

involve regulation or spending lots of money and it turns out

:22:11.:22:13.

The big issue, getting people into work faster.

:22:14.:22:22.

We went into job centres to understand what is that process,

:22:23.:22:24.

we made some relatively simple changes on the face of it,

:22:25.:22:27.

we were able to get people back to work much faster.

:22:28.:22:35.

So for example, for 30 odd years, we have been asking people

:22:36.:22:38.

in the job centre, you have to show that you are looking for work,

:22:39.:22:41.

so what three jobs did you look for last week?

:22:42.:22:44.

Psychologically, we think that is not as good as doing

:22:45.:22:46.

something different, which is asking people,

:22:47.:22:48.

And to ask them in quite concrete terms where are you going to look,

:22:49.:22:53.

what kind of thing you looking for, what time of day, after I have

:22:54.:22:56.

If you ask people about the future instead of the past,

:22:57.:23:01.

it turns out they are much more likely to get into work faster.

:23:02.:23:04.

They just become more effective in their searches.

:23:05.:23:06.

We notice in job centres that quite often people,

:23:07.:23:08.

even when they were booked in by the job centre,

:23:09.:23:10.

to have an interview the next weekend, only one in ten people

:23:11.:23:13.

would turn up, so we ran a trial, we were giving texts to tell them

:23:14.:23:17.

you have been booked into this thing.

:23:18.:23:19.

If you add the person's name, it goes from 10% to 15%.

:23:20.:23:21.

If you add my name, the job centre adviser,

:23:22.:23:24.

If you have one line in there to say, I have

:23:25.:23:27.

booked your place, good luck, it goes up to nearly

:23:28.:23:30.

Introducing psychology and humanity to the exchange can have a huge

:23:31.:23:33.

One of the key points to understand information is not

:23:34.:23:37.

People sort of know things but there are lots of other things

:23:38.:23:41.

that are driving our behaviour when we eat so we are often not

:23:42.:23:44.

Plate size, enormously, how big your plates are at home

:23:45.:23:48.

influences how much you eat, how big the portion sizes,

:23:49.:23:51.

the bigger the boxes, the more food you will eat,

:23:52.:23:53.

The way in which food is presented in a school,

:23:54.:24:02.

what comes first, the salad or the chips?

:24:03.:24:04.

These things turn out to be incredibly powerful influences

:24:05.:24:06.

There is a lot of reason to think that this will be driven

:24:07.:24:12.

by local innovation, rather than just national

:24:13.:24:13.

prescribing, partly because people do not want national government

:24:14.:24:16.

saying this is how big your plate size can be.

:24:17.:24:18.

But you can well imagine communities can shape for example how many

:24:19.:24:21.

fast-food outlets are around the school, what is the food

:24:22.:24:23.

You can imagine a community being able to mobilise on some

:24:24.:24:27.

of the things and actually making a very big difference,

:24:28.:24:30.

probably more effectively sometimes than a national government saying

:24:31.:24:32.

Some of the great challenges of our time, behavioural science

:24:33.:24:35.

looks like it has got something to say on that so obesity

:24:36.:24:38.

and lifestyle issues, it actually includes

:24:39.:24:40.

People sometimes forget but a lot of what happens in the economy

:24:41.:24:50.

is essentially psychological, confidence.

:24:51.:24:58.

What do you think everybody else is doing?

:24:59.:25:05.

That affects whether you decide to employ another person or not,

:25:06.:25:08.

so yes, we think that it is up to some of the big challenges on us,

:25:09.:25:12.

a lot of the focus of our work these days.

:25:13.:25:18.

I'm joined now by the Minister for Public Services,

:25:19.:25:22.

To what extent are you nudging us at the moment in Wales? I think we are

:25:23.:25:38.

starting to nudge a bit more but I think there are ways in which

:25:39.:25:40.

government always nudge in any case. David rightly referred to health

:25:41.:25:45.

issues for example and clearly we seek to encourage people to smoke

:25:46.:25:51.

less, to eat more healthily, to drink more wisely. So there are

:25:52.:25:56.

those traditional areas of government but what has been

:25:57.:26:01.

interesting from the work of the behavioural insights team as they

:26:02.:26:05.

have also targeted quite concrete economic and social policy issues as

:26:06.:26:10.

well. You mentioned smoking. That is not nudging. That is a ban. A ban on

:26:11.:26:16.

smoking in public places. A ban on smoking in cars with children. That

:26:17.:26:21.

is not nudging. Many would say that is more nannying. It is a fine line.

:26:22.:26:27.

I think there are different courses for different courses. I think we

:26:28.:26:31.

know that the work that was done in respect of a ban on smoking in

:26:32.:26:38.

public places has led to impact on behaviour. We have laws in place for

:26:39.:26:42.

example on discrimination which have changed public behaviour but what is

:26:43.:26:47.

quite clever here I think is that the work of the behavioural analysis

:26:48.:26:52.

goes to areas where government has not traditionally been able to

:26:53.:26:55.

reach, with things like regulation or spending. And instinctively as a

:26:56.:27:02.

minister, are you more of a nanny or a nudge? I think there is a

:27:03.:27:07.

correlation that you need. It is right that we have regulations

:27:08.:27:11.

against his commission. It is right that people can breathe clean air.

:27:12.:27:17.

Those things are important. I think you have got to stop this binary

:27:18.:27:21.

divide. It is not a binary divide. There is a room for nudging and

:27:22.:27:26.

there is a route for regulation. Give us an example of where you

:27:27.:27:29.

would like to nudge Western Mark it has to be settled? I would like to

:27:30.:27:35.

see improvements in voter registration rates amongst those

:27:36.:27:39.

under 25 for example. I would like to see an improvement in council tax

:27:40.:27:42.

payment levels. Those are areas where we will six ball work with the

:27:43.:27:49.

team in the future. That is work... I am not the expert on this. There

:27:50.:27:55.

are people with the experience who can tell us. We have brought the

:27:56.:28:00.

team into the Welsh Government, we are starting work with them at the

:28:01.:28:03.

present time. They have got insights, they have done good work

:28:04.:28:07.

for the UK Government and they have done good work for the Inland

:28:08.:28:11.

Revenue and others and we want to see what we can learn from that. The

:28:12.:28:15.

whole ethos of nudging is that we as citizens are meant to know we are

:28:16.:28:21.

being nudged. Once we know, does it feel question mark it appears to be

:28:22.:28:24.

working in the areas that the team has targeted in the recent past. I

:28:25.:28:30.

think we are all subject to nudging. We know that the big supermarkets

:28:31.:28:33.

are seeking to nudge our behaviour all the time. What we are trained to

:28:34.:28:39.

do here is work with the grain of human nature and identify ways in

:28:40.:28:45.

which policies can be better explained to people, put in terms

:28:46.:28:47.

they understand and respond positively to. The beauty of nudging

:28:48.:28:52.

is it is cheap. Sometimes it generates a real return. If you

:28:53.:28:56.

speak to the team and the Inland Revenue about the way in which they

:28:57.:29:01.

have improved tax collection rates, for example, we are talking about

:29:02.:29:03.

tens of millions of pounds being collected. And if you do for me next

:29:04.:29:09.

didn't -- administration, you would go big on nudging, would you tell us

:29:10.:29:14.

we are by Ian nudged? I am telling you now. There is nothing secret

:29:15.:29:18.

here. We brought the team into talk to us. They spoke at our summit.

:29:19.:29:27.

David spoke in November. And I know that people in local government, the

:29:28.:29:30.

health service and others have been impressed by what they have heard

:29:31.:29:33.

and are talking with them. Thank you very much.

:29:34.:29:36.

If you'd like to get in touch with us:

:29:37.:29:39.

We'll be back next week, but until then, thanks for watching.

:29:40.:29:42.

Let your New Year start with a bang and visit an explosive new China.

:29:43.:30:15.

On The Wales Report with Bethan Rhys Roberts this week: is business the new battleground between the UK government and the Welsh government ahead of May's Assembly Election? And nanny or nudge - do we need to change the law to change people's behaviour?


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