Education The Wales Report


Education

Bethan Rhys Roberts is joined by a panel of politicians from the five main parties in Wales to discuss their plans for the education system.


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Transcript


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Tonight on The Wales Report - From Nursery to University,

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the Welsh Government is responsible for your education.

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In two weeks you'll have your say at the ballot box and tonight we'll

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hear what the five main parties are offering you.

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Stay with us for Election Wales 2016.

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This year the Welsh Government spends ?1.7 billion on education -

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and throughout the first 17 years of devolution it's been an area

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poor performance in international rankings and radical curriculum

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reform - this is the policy area which has diverged most

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Tonight we ask whether the Welsh system is up to scratch.

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Join in the debate on social media - #thewalesreport.

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with some teachers' views from Ferndale Community School

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Wherever you are from should not effect your opportunities in life or

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your target in life because everybody is the same after all. It

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doesn't matter about your background, as long as you work

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hard, even if you find it difficult, if it is what you want to do, go for

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that subject. Why is this a good example? I do feel pressure with my

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job, there are pressures put on teachers but they are there because

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we want the students to do well. I think they should be supporting

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places for teachers to ensure that they are able to manage workload and

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there are opportunities for development and nurturing talent

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because there are so many successful teachers we need to make sure stay

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in the profession. I think there is a greater focus now on the

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attainment of schools and it's not a bad thing. The first thing we had to

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know is how well we were competing with other nations, internationally.

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The fact we were found wanting in certain areas is not a bad thing,

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you need to know where you are and what needs to be done in order to

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improve. I would like to see flexibility in the system for

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schools to address the particular needs of learners in its care. As we

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move towards ever increasing standards regarding qualifications,

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that the curriculum is not restricted so much that

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opportunities for children are increasingly narrowed. There has to

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be some pressure on us to do well but I think when we are under

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pressure we get worried and we don't do as well. Whereas when we are more

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relaxed and we know what we are doing and are calm, we tend to

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succeed better than when we are nervous.

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Views from Ferndale Community School there.

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Joining me tonight - from the Labour Party,

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From the Conservatives, Angela Burns.

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And Eluned Parrott fom the Liberal Democrats.

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There are, of course, other parties standing

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in the election - you can get all the information on the BBC

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Thank you for joining us tonight. Let's start with money because that

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is the key, many would argue. Huw Lewis, we know pupils in Wales

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receive less money than those in England and have done for years so

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why do they deserve less money? None of this is true. There is an old

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figure, you said for years... The last figure is 2011. The last figure

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is quite a way back in time. Have we caught up? We have overtaken England

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in the educational spend, the figures from the Treasury showed

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that Wales is 4% ahead of England. We have been investing in our

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schools but in England things have been going in a different direction

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and that is a matter for them but it is true that we have put ?200

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million extra over this semi term investment into our schools, our

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front line. -- over this Assembly term. Why have you decreased it?

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There is a relative protection in terms of school spent and what we

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have seen in terms of everyday spend, ?200 million extra, but also,

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let's not forget the eighth ?2 billion programme of capital

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investment in school buildings. We are carrying on with investment in

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schools, a programme which ground to a halt under the Conservatives in

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England. It has carried on in Wales. A lot of you were sniggering. You

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don't believe this figure? I'm afraid not. The National union of

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teachers were clear not long ago, they put together what they thought

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their funding gap was now and it is in the order of the height 700s. And

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one of the ways to release funding for schools is to directly fund them

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and that way they will be able to get more money to the front line and

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empower headteachers and teachers to reflect what their community needs.

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Are we talking academies? No, it is horses for courses essentially and

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there is no desire to have academies here. We have so much structural

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change happening at the moment in education and we need to empower

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those headteachers, give them the funds because they know their

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communities and they need to be freed up, as your report showed,

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teachers are... What is the difference between what you are

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proposing and an academy? None whatsoever. Directly funding school

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under the scrutiny of the local education authority and empowering

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headteachers to spend their money for their school... It sounds like

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an Academy. Of course not because there was no private investment,

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this is about ensuring that more money, we want to aim for 90%, it

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was a Labour goal, another they sadly failed to achieve. We want 90%

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to get to the front line. We need schools with money, teachers that

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are empowered to deliver what that local community wants all stop would

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you increase spending per pupil in Plaid Cymru?

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We have the recognised this is a tight spend, delivering money

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directly to schools does not help, they just had to buy back the

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services provided by the local education authority. If you have a

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child with special needs in your school, it can be extremely

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expensive for small schools to cope with. At the moment it is dealt with

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by the local authorities are giving the funding directly to the school

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does not help them. The overall funding alone the -- envelope

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includes spending on higher education and we will come onto that

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but it is important to say that when the Labour Party says we spend more

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on education in Wales, it isn't just schools. If you just take schools

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and compare them like for like,... And we are focusing on school at the

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moment. We have to get more to the front line, I don't dispute that.

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Would you spend more per pupil in Wales? Overall, yes. But we have to

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be honest, this is not a huge spending splurge, we don't have the

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resources. You -- Ukip, would you increase spending

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per pupil in Wales? We want to look at the way the funding is allocated

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to the schools and make sure we use the same formula throughout Wales

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for each school, taking into account any special needs that school may

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have. We have not had the statistics to look at the difference in funding

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so whether the figures you are giving us are true or not, I could

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not comment. The English figures don't exist because they have been

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obscured by the Conservative government. I can give you a Welsh

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figures. Would you increase spending on education? Yes, we would. The

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Liberal Democrats? Would you increase spending per pupil in

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Wales? We would target the spending we have for education. The pupil

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deprivation grant was eight key Welsh Lib Dem priority introduced in

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partnership with the Welsh Government and it has been the most

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successful education policy in terms of social mobility and improving

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outcomes come lowering the gap between the poorest and wealthiest

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pupils. We have to macro priorities, one of those is to increase and

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extend that grant to make sure we can continue to close the gap. As

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the pupils said in the film, it should not matter where you came

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from and what your start in life is, you should have an equal crack at

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the whip. It sounds expensive, where would you cut to fund it? Scrapping

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the regional consortia which are a layer of bureaucracy which we do not

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think it is helpful or productive for the schools and as part of that

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package of funding, that is one thing we would do. Looking at

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standards, there is so much to talk about the standards, teacher

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training and the standard of teaching in Wales. The annual report

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in 2016 talks of a huge contrast in teaching between the best and the

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worst schools and the best schools are often in deprived areas so you

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cannot blame socioeconomic factors. Why is it? It is all about the

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quality of teaching. That is why we have embarked upon the biggest

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reform programme since 1944 which has at its heart, and further

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community School is one of the Pioneer schools in this regard, --

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Ferndale Community School. It is all about raising the skill levels and

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aptitude levels of the teachers. Is this a new programme? It has been

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embarked upon over the last few months. It's not new. The First

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Minister admitted he took his eye off the ball when it came to

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education after ten years of drift and decline. I don't disagree with

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something 's Huw has said, it is fairly new, looking at teacher

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training and standards I don't disagree with that. The key to

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improving the system is in that but I disagree that the Labour Party is

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capable of doing it because they have inherited and continued with a

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decline in standards relative to the rest of the UK -- rest of the UK.

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With the best will in the world, with ten years of decline. And four

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years with the Liberal Democrats before that. We know who to blame.

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We're not just offering a blame game. What would you do to drive

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teaching standards? We would look at the successful schools in the

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valleys like Ferndale, they have excellent leaders in their schools,

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excellent headteachers, excellent departmental heads who are able to

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drive standards and motivate and infuse not only the teachers but the

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staff around them. We need to invest in those leadership skills for our

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schools to make sure they succeed in the future. Your big idea is Grammar

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schools. How would you focus on getting the best teachers? What is

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your policy for getting the best teachers? Well, grammar schools is

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not the only thing, obviously. We'd like to see the reintroduction of

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grammar schools. Why? What would the reintroduction of grammar schools

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achieve for standards? We don't feel one size fits all, comprehensive

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schools don't suit every child. I put two children through

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comprehensive schools. So have I and they came out wonderfully. That

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isn't because it was a comprehensive School, that is because your

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children where able to do it. I went to a grammar school and I saw my

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fellow pupils written off at the age of 11 when they couldn't even get a

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levels at that stage, they were told they could not go to university,

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they were for May bring jobs and nothing else. You are going back 30

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years with no clue about the modern world. It's important to realise a

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couple of things about the teaching profession, we have over 100 empty

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headteacher posts in schools in Wales, more days taken off sick for

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stress by teachers, teachers feel under the cosh, overregulated,

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underfunded and under supported. What is the idea? A centre for

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education? A number of things and they tie in together, one is about

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freeing up headteachers and allowing a school to react to its community.

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You can tie that in with a more robust initial teacher training

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programme, two years to produce teachers that are really, really

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top-quality and have all the skills and supports. They are not popped

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into a job and expected to learn on the job. And you can tie it in with

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a college of teaching that works with the government and with Iestyn

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to support teachers, to set standards, to enable continuous

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professional development. To do disciplinary matters as well. A

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college that can really set the standards. We are leaving education

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to the educators, not to a micromanaging government because

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that is what has gone horribly wrong in the last 17 years. We just heard

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from the front line of Ferndale Community School, where these things

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that there are many things that I do not disagree with which are

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happening and being controlled by the teaching professionals. You let

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standards slip on your watch. Would you acknowledge you let standards

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slip on your watch? Standards have risen every year. Professor John

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Furlong said there is a broad consensus across Wales that in

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relation to current enquire requirements teacher education is

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not as strong as it should be. Who commissioned that? This is why we

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have a completely new future for initial teacher training. It is

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being laid out through the Furlong report, a review I commission, a

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Welsh Labour government has acted upon it. And came back and slap you

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in the face and said it was not good enough. The reason I asked John

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Furlong to undertake the review was we knew full well there were gaps in

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the system and we were not performing as well as we could. Can

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I say there is one inescapable truth. There is no education system

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that can be better than the quality of the teachers that teach it. That

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is why teachers are so incredibly important and why the Welsh

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Conservatives are absolutely proud of the fact we have put teachers in

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the centre of our manifesto. On teachers, Susan Boucher, tell us

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your plan, would you change the way teachers operate in Wales or are you

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happy with the status quo? I'm very concerned about teachers in Wales.

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Number of my friends are in the teaching profession and they are

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absolutely old down with paperwork, performance management, lesson

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planning. Teachers need a new deal to tackle this. They are working

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until nine o'clock at night marking. Tell us what your plan is, how would

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you change that? We would want to reduce the teachers' workload, make

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sure we put in the right teachers into our schools, that they've got

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the right qualifications. It's all very well putting qualified teachers

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in with skills in science and mathematics at we're not retaining

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them. We have to make sure that we keep these excellent teachers in our

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schools to raise standards. Because, let's be honest, the Labour

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government has let it slip really badly. Let's look at testing

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concerning many pupils and parents, and your proposals. Would pupils be

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tested more, less or about the same as they are tested at the moment? We

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think the level of testing we have at the moment is very bureaucratic,

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it is very burdensome for schools, so we need to make sure that we are

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refining that and making it as simple to deliver as possible.

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However, we must make sure we are assessing pupils appropriately and

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regularly throughout their school life. We certainly do not want to

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increase the burden of testing our pupils have at the moment. As they

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are tested at the moment, you would stay like that. Simon Thomas, more

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or less testing? The long-term aim is to move away from the testing we

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have at the moment, that is set out in Donaldson, the new curriculum in

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Wales and the way the profession itself will become more

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self-regulating and self testing if you like and I want to get to a

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position which cannot be done overnight, I will not drop testing

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overnight because there is a... That is the goal? No testing and Plaid

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Cymru, that's the vision? That's the vision and not just Plaid Cymru,

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Donaldson, an independent report says that command all the main

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parties have said that's the way forward for education in Wales. Are

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some good examples in Wales are in a Plaid Cymru run authority, it has a

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good way of tracking individual schools, not with tests but almost

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daily knowledge of what they are achieving and that must be rolled

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out throughout Wales. Testing, Carwyn Jones said clearly last week

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I want testing and I want to know how my children are doing. Would you

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continue with the status quo, or do you want more testing? I know you

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are leaving but what would a Labour government offer? It is imperative

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to stick with testing for this period of time. But as Simon has

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said, he is quite right, the future for Wales and Welsh education is

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laid out in the Donaldson report and it's about evolution towards where

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the best systems in the world actually are, which is about

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assessment for learning been driven by the professional in the

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classroom. But we're not ready for that yet. There are stages we need

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to pass through to get there. You scrapped testing for 14-year-olds,

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Sats went. I didn't scrapped testing. Labour government did. You

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stopped it. Many people interpret that period as the period you to

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your eye off the ball. As a government, not you personally, Huw

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Lewis, but the government. Going back to testing, is that returning

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to taking your eye off the ball? I would encourage everyone, and I

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think there is a consensus almost around the table here, that the

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destination for us is to be somewhere where the finished

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education system, the Dutch education system -- the Finnish

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education system. The stuff being in the hands of the professional and

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about my plastic testing individualised to the people.

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International comparisons, which bring us onto Pisa, the

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International tests for 65 countries, and Wales in maths it

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came 43rd, reading 41st, science 36 are not great. Angela for the

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Conservatives, Angela Burns, what would be your approach to Pisa?

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Would you prioritise it more than the current government? No, I

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wouldn't because it goes down a difficult path. It is important to

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keep the Pisa testing because it gives as a benchmark and we need

:20:36.:20:40.

benchmarks because I agree that we were led into the wilderness years

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by Labour when they scrapped everything. Let's be clear, there is

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a huge amount of change in education, the Donaldson Review,

:20:49.:20:51.

everything happening with teacher training, and we cannot put yet

:20:52.:20:54.

another rigorous set of mechanisms in place. When Wales doesn't perform

:20:55.:21:01.

greatly, may at the end of this year, you will not attack them? You

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have just said you would not put more weight on them and you are

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happy to park them in a way. I didn't say I would park them, but I

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wouldn't change my curriculum just to meet a Pisa test result. How will

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performance improved? We must look at a range of benchmarks including

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Pisa, Pisa is incredibly important because it tells us where we are on

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the global stage and benchmarking is incredibly important. The right way

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to use things like Pisa as a benchmark is if we start to fall

:21:34.:21:37.

back and fail we have to ask ourselves fundamental questions

:21:38.:21:40.

about why that is the case. The problem with the way testing is

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delivered in Wales at the moment is it is aiming for the average, you

:21:44.:21:47.

are trying to get a cohort to the average performance for their group.

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What we are not doing is teaching individuals to achieve to the best

:21:52.:21:55.

of their individual ability and that unfortunately is a big failing in

:21:56.:21:59.

the systematic moment. There seems to be a disconnect come and tell me

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if I'm wrong, when it comes to Pisa. In that governments and opposition

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parties put a great deal of emphasis on them but schools don't because

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they are focusing on GCSE and A-level and so forth. Absolutely.

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But... Letter talk to Ukip on this, on Pisa testing how would you

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improve the results? When you look back on 1997 before the Welsh

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Assembly started, we were right up there on the Pisa rankings and where

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are we now? I think you are making that up. Wales wasn't assessed

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separately under Pisa, it was a UK assessment. Are standing in Wales

:22:43.:22:46.

was not very high. These are not the facts. But as macro focus on the

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future of Pisa testing, how would you approach it? I agree it is good

:22:52.:22:54.

as a benchmark to see where our standings are. Sorry, I've lost my

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train of thought now. Would you make it a priority for schools to teach

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to that method of testing? No, I wouldn't make it a priority for

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schools at all. Huw Lewis, let's end on this. Do you expect the Pisa

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results to go up? I'm very hopeful and optimistic that they will, yes.

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This is what he said last time! What matters here is it is not about

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teaching to Pisa, that would be a disastrous strategy for any

:23:28.:23:31.

government to undertake. We're not preparing our pupils for them, is

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that fair? You succeed in Pisa when you have excellence in teaching and

:23:37.:23:39.

learning in the classroom. It is a test of the whole education system.

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That is the test. On Pisa, what is Plaid Cymru's approach? We have a

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target to improve over ten years. Thank you for now. Let's graduate to

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universities, an area of equal, if not more, controversy than the

:23:56.:23:56.

schools. Tuition fees have been

:23:57.:24:00.

at the centre of the argument. Unlike Westminster,

:24:01.:24:02.

the Welsh Government awards grants for tuition of up to ?5,000

:24:03.:24:04.

whether you study inside or outside Universities across Wales

:24:05.:24:07.

feel their funding And their performance in league

:24:08.:24:11.

tables has been less We've been to Glyndwr

:24:12.:24:15.

University in Wrexham to get Funding, funding, funding. I think

:24:16.:24:35.

as far as being a student is concerned it is something that comes

:24:36.:24:40.

up all the time. In conversations at University, no matter what

:24:41.:24:45.

background you are from. Funding is always at the forefront of your mind

:24:46.:24:50.

when you want to go and study. Student tuition fees at the

:24:51.:24:54.

forefront of the debate. The tuition fee grants support going to

:24:55.:24:57.

individual students goes wherever they study, of course. That means

:24:58.:25:01.

that a large English university like the University of the West of

:25:02.:25:05.

England in Bristol is getting more money on grant support out of Wales

:25:06.:25:12.

than Glyndwr is to support infrastructure which means Welsh

:25:13.:25:16.

universities are struggling to get the resources to put together a

:25:17.:25:20.

quality higher education system and that has to change. It is really

:25:21.:25:25.

important that universities forge strong links with the communities we

:25:26.:25:28.

are in hand with businesses because our students need to get relevant

:25:29.:25:33.

work experience. We need to find good volunteering opportunities for

:25:34.:25:35.

them seven they can learn and grow. Our students make a difference

:25:36.:25:42.

globally, so if we want to make a difference to the Welsh economy,

:25:43.:25:45.

investment in universities really is crucial. The big challenge facing

:25:46.:25:51.

higher education in Wales really is resources. It's about how we put in

:25:52.:25:55.

place a really high class education system that students want, that

:25:56.:25:59.

delivers for employers, and that provides a basis for

:26:00.:26:00.

With just over two weeks until polling day, Bethan Rhys Roberts is joined by a panel of politicians from the five main parties in Wales to discuss their plans for the education system.


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