25/11/2012 The Wales Report

This week on The Wales Report - the worrying state of our schools. Too

many are under-performing. We'll be asking the minister what's going

wrong. No women bishops in England - but is the Church in Wales going

to take a lead? We talk to the Archbishop. And are some of the

poorest people in Wales to become victims of benefit changes imposed

by Westminster? Stay with us for Good evening. Welcome once again to

the Wales Report, where we explore some of the most important factors

in Welsh life and talk to some of those making decisions which affect

life throughout Wales. And we start this week with the state of schools

in Wales. Too many of them are under-performing. Some of our local

education authorities are making a real hash of things and the answer

might be to bring everything under central control. That's the broad

view of Leighton Andrews, the education minister, the man who's

not afraid to make bold decisions. He's the one who ordered the re-

marking of GCSE English papers and he's radically reshaping the world

of the universities in Wales. But before we get carried away with his

bold statements, we might just remind ourselves that Labour's been

in power in Cardiff Bay since 1999, so there have to be some questions

about the party's stewardship of education since that time. I'll be

talking to Mr Andrews in a moment, but first, David Williams has been

hearing from some of those with It is now 18 months since Leighton

Andrews took over as the Welsh education minister. A new

headmaster, sweeping all before him, lauded in some circles as the man

who stopped the rot in education in Wales but, regarded by others as

abrasive, and riding roughshod over people's sensibilities, in pursuit

of his aims, both political and personal. Very different

perceptions, then, of the man in charge of education. But there is a

consensus among those who detract him and his supporters, and it is

this - he is widely regarded as one of the most able ministers in the

Welsh government, a man who knows what he wants and where he is going.

And I have given local a authorities time and money to get

their house in order but the evidence is overwhelming that this

has not happened. I am no longer prepared to wait until 2013. I have

instructed my officials to scope out a more wide ranging review of

the delivery of education services. That review could see local

authorities stripped of responsibility for schools. Clearly,

the minister had lost patience with colleagues in local government and

pressed the nuclear button. I am concerned this is more about his

legacy and the fact he does not want to be yet another Labour

minister who has failed to deliver substantial improvements in

education in Wales, joining the other 15 years of failure, and he

is trying to throw the cards up in the air, to try and achieve

something. Leighton Andrews is no stranger to controversy. He seems

to relish his role as catalyst for change, unveiling a 20 point

improvement plan for Education in 2011. It included the idea of

councils grouping together into regional consortia of education

services. But, progress in some areas has been painfully slow, too

slow for an education minister in a hurry. But, what happens -- lies

behind this latest controversial review? Is it feel you're on the

part of local authorities to run schools properly or is it more

Machiavellian than that, part of some grand plan by the Welsh

government to centralise power in hands of a few politicians, Kieran

Cardiff Bay? No, says the minister, it is all about improving education

standards. Others are more sceptical. Our members are finding

it very difficult to keep up with the pace of change in education in

Wales. This review is in danger of putting forward the agenda far more

quickly when we are not quite sure that there should be changed at the

moment, but we would prefer their to be time to prove what old

authorities can do through the regional consortia arrangements.

The children in whose name and the news interest each review and

policy announcement is made could be forgiven for feeling a little

confused, as can their parents. do not want to kill that my

children are educational guinea pigs at the whim of policy makers.

What you're saying is that stability is important. Yes,

stability is key, I think, yes. Stability might be difficult to

achieve in the current climate. This week, we can expect there is

also wrecked another review, this time into the exam system for 14-19

year olds. More changes might be on the way to our schools. That was

David Williams. I am joined by the education minister, Leighton

Andrews. Can you reassure people you believe in local democracy and

accountability? The very much so, we have lots of democracy but

little accountability. That is borne out by reports from Education

Inspectorate, which has shown we only have five good local

authorities at of 15 inspected. Five are adequate, or barely good

enough, and five are either in need of significant improvement of

special measures, so there was a lot to be done. Are their common

problems that you want to identify? There are lots of things leaders of

local councils have to look at. I want to ask why local councils into

been so late in schools or relay at all, as we have seen. They very

rarely use powers and integration when schools start getting into

trouble. They need to look closely at what they are doing. And when a

council is found to be in need of special measures, even then, local

government leaders are reluctant to act. What are your thoughts on

that? While directors of education who won feeling services staying in

their jobs? Why don't people act more swiftly and recklessly to sort

out the school system for the young people in their communities?

are the education minister - don't you have the powers to intervene?

Indeed I have. We have put a ministerial intervention Board into

Pembrokeshire. And we now have an intervention Board in Anglesey as

well. Illustrating the scale of the problem. It is quite clear that the

new inspection framework is tougher, is making more demands of local

authorities. They need now to step up to the mark. They seemed angry

about the suggestion that this form of local control and accountability

should be moved and centralised. You seem angry about what you see

as though you to perform. Whereas the compromise? There is a

performance issue. This is about their performance as education

authorities. I have not ruled anything in or out. It is going to

be a proper review. We look forward to him back from local government,

from them demonstrating not only that they what local democracy but

also to improve performance. I am encouraged by the new leadership in

local authorities since May this year, and they could point to

applique may Authority, a Labour authority and a Tory authority and

people are starting to get to grips with the challenges. People are

starting to get this right, but the pace has got to accelerate. People

who are jumping to conclusions who say you want to centralise things,

they are wrong? I would never have invented myself 22 Oct education

authorities and a country the size of Wales. We have too many

education authorities. It is very clear some of the smaller ones in

particular are not operating at the King of capacity that we want, and

that parents and pupils should expect. Why have you not made the

rational, valid case for reorganising that number of

laboratories rather than waiting for a bad performance in one area,

and using that as a tool, if you like, to going? It is my job to

driver performance in education throughout the system, and I am

focused on the poor performance we have seen in too many education

authorities. There are some things we might like to do quickly. Local

government reorganisation can take a long time to implement. Parents

and pupils watching this will be focusing on something rather more

basic, rather than talking about processes and structures, they will

think about quality of teaching, resources and facilities, some

schools do not have good facilities, buildings are crumbling, where, in

all of this debate is this talk about the nitty gritty? That is

part of this agenda. If we do not have the right level of support to

schools you find a situation where schools do not get the support

needed, and that is at the heart of what we are seeing, but, we are

investing in new buildings and new technology and I have to say to

local authorities, as I have said in my statement, I am concerned

about poor quality of Internet access for schools, and something I

am working very hard on. When you get your powers, and the powers you

have to intervene already, are you not tempted just to say, I have got

the powers in place, why can't I just run the education system

without this halfway house of local education authorities? We need

something between the government and the school, and that could be

local authorities, it could be regional consortia, such as we are

developing, and it could be regional school boards. If we took

most of the education responsibilities away from the

authorities are currently closed fidgeted and ran it on and regional

basis. We must face up to the fact that performance in education

service is overall, not good enough. We talk a lot about reviews, and

people's eyes glaze over when you talk about lots of reviews, because

they want practical results - when are we going to see them? If I just

acted, I would be accused of acting like a dictator. We have these

reviews, in order to get the views of the public. We will be

publishing an exciting qualification group review this

week. When you see the performers of Welsh schools, compared to parts

of the rest of the UK, not to mention abroad, it is not a very

competent position for you to be in. Standards have been increasing

throughout the period of devolution. There are 12% more people getting

A-star grades in A-level, and there are fewer young people leaving

schools without qualifications, so there have been significant

improvements during the period of devolution, but we can do better,

and if we could implement best practice across the wall of Wales,

then we would be moving very fast in terms of making national

progress -- the whole of Wales. Thank you Mr Andrews. Education is

one area where policy stands out in marked contrast to England and the

week brought another stark illustration when the General Synod

of the Church of England rejected plans to appoint women bishops. It

dismayed and angered many - including the outgoing Archbishop

of Canterbury Rowan Williams - and his successor Justin Welby - not to

mention many women who felt this was a major setback. Women should

not be barred from being in the House of Bishops. It is ridiculous

in today's society to have a boys' club of men who make decisions on

behalf of the church. It does not Some of the strongest voices in

favour were within the Church in Wales, which was in the vanguard of

the campaign to ordain women priests twenty years ago. So will

the Church in Wales now move independently to appoint women as

bishops? Joining me is the Archbishop of Wales, Barry Morgan.

County are coming in. Pleasure. What is your response to the vote?

A I was deeply disappointed. I knew would be close but I did think the

vote would go through. It was a great shock. I understand how they

feel. In 2008, at the same thing happen to as in Wales where the

Bill was lost by about five votes in the House of clergy.

Consequently, we are at this stage were we to need to make sure we

bring in another bill in order to make it possible for a woman to be

elected as bishops. Just another thought on the outcome of this vote,

you have an outgoing Archbishop of Canterbury suffering a setback, an

incoming archbishop who made his views very plain. They have been

rejected. Is it not very destabilising for the Church

itself? Yes, of course, it is very disappointing for both of them.

People are in favour of bishops, but they do not always listen or

follow where bishops lead. The Bar is quite high, it is two-thirds in

each house. I know lots of people have spoken about the fact we

should change the rules, but you cannot do so in the middle of the

game. You have to play it and then think about the implications.

are the signals now, forgive me, which would inured you give

encouragement to women in Wales are who are looking at his push --

position in the Church in Wales? Next year the bishops will

introduce a Bill to the governing body. It will be a simple bill

talking about accepting the principle of women as bishops. In

that Bell, we separate any pastoral provisions. This bill will not come

into force we will say unless and until a second Bill is passed

making special provisions for you. The idea is to have the principal

out of the way so that as a church we're saying positively we believe

women should be allowed in the episcopate. A are using to people

you hope the Church in Wales will move to a point women bishops

before the Church of England gets his own opportunity to do so?

not a competition. That is attractive to you However? We have

been talking about it for a long time in Wales. It is only right we

should now, four years after 2008, bring it back. In the hope that

people accept the privet -- the principle. If that is passed, it

gives a strong indication to the church and the world that we really

do believe that women ought to be ordained. Then, all that does is

make it possible for women to be elected. One such caution, you are

presenting us with lots of caviar at. -- lots of caution. Why can you

not say, we end in a position where the Church of Wales presents a

woman be shipped to the world? Because I have tried that before.

It is not about what I want as archbishop. I would love to be able

to say the Church in Wales has elected a woman bishop. It is not

about what I want but about what is right for the Church. I believe

that it is right for women to be bishops in the Church of God. I

hope it will be possible, but we have to go through the processes

and we have to carry people with us. I hope by doing it in this way we

might just win over enough people so that they vote. We also have to

have a two-thirds majority. In that is not delivered in the next fears,

with people already expressing concern about the strength of the

judgment in Wales, where does that leave you? I think in a very sad

and sorry state. We have seen the reaction of the wider society to

the church. People do not understand the arguments against

the ordination of women to the episcopate. It does not make any

sense to me that if you ordain women as deacons and priests, not

to allow them to be bishops. We have the same arguments we had when

we talked about ordaining women to the priesthood. Thank you very much.

Archbishop, thank you for joining us. If you have any comments on

these or any other subjects, please get in touch. You can email

[email protected] or we're on twitter @thewalesreport.

Of all the policies being pursued by the coalition government at

Westminster, reform of welfare is proving to be highly controversial,

with changes to housing benefit heading the list. Experts and

campaigners claim they will have a brutal impact on some of the most

vulnerable families and households in Wales, with the to under-25's

facing some drastic change. In a moment, we'll be getting the view

of a leading Liberal Democrat, who's taking a keen interest in the

debate, but first David Williams examines the potential impact of

the changes. You have to seek work and take work or you will lose your

benefit. We are going to look at ending automatic access to housing

benefit for people under 25 as well. She shock and disbelief. I cannot

believe that any so-called government would put in something

that is so targeted at the most vulnerable in our society. Hard-

working young people have to live at home while they work and save,

so why should it be different for those who do not? We go from the

situation where we have a well- regarded system with good social

support, to a system which is forcing young people onto the

streets. This boy is 19 years of age and is one of 22,000 young

people in Wales on housing benefit. Last year he was thrown out of the

family home after a strained relationship with his mother came

to a head. He now lives and supported housing in Caerphilly and

is looking to move into his own property. He says he would have

ended up on the streets and unemployable under the current

plans. If I did not have housing benefits, I would be homeless and

then I could not get a job because you need an address. It is not a

lifestyle choice at all. Sitting around all day doing nothing. The

government might think I am lucky but I am not. He is not alone.

recent survey by the homeless charity said that 90 % of the young

people it helps are afraid of finding themselves homeless. With

nowhere to turn, if there housing benefits are scrapped. We work with

around 40,000 young people a year and they are reliant on housing

benefit to have a roof over their head because they're homeless. Or

there threatened with being homeless. If they had safe and

secure family homes to live in, that is where they would be. The is

change will not just affect single people. Nearly 45 % of under 25s

have received housing benefits and her appearance. This couple live in

a three-bedroomed house with their two children and received �320 a

week towards their rent. We as a happy family ex -- we are a happy

family! They struggled to make ends meet. I got made redundant. I had

to go to job seekers. We're now on the dole and cannot afford anything.

We have to rob Peter to give to Paul and then we have to take back

off Peter. In the 10 years I have worked, this is the longest I have

been out of work minus six months. If they withdraw housing benefit

there is nothing we can do but go on the streets. We're talking about

young families in. Not just individuals. This will affect them

just as much as individuals, without access to housing benefit

even when in employment, you need that additional support provided by

the state. Government spending has ballooned in the last decade on

housing benefits. This is predicted to rise to 25 billion by 2015. Of

this almost 2 million -- 2 billion is bent on the under 25. The

coalition government says enough is enough. We as people understand we

cannot allow the situation to remain as a tizz. The Government is

right to look at all aspects of spending. We have well duty to look

at welfare budget which has doubled. No proposals have been forthcoming

as yet. Protection is in the system for the most vulnerable. I do think

we have a responsibility to look at elements of government expenditure

which is as significant at �2 billion which is a third of the

Welsh NHS budget. The Department of work and pensions insists that

under the new proposals the Most Honourable will continue to receive

help. Experts in the field are not convinced. -- most vulnerable.

they would do is force people into a spiral of decline, where it

becomes so vulnerable that they can access support. That is not what we

want. It is still not clear whether the government will go ahead with

these proposals. Things may become clear in the Autumn Statement in

two weeks' time. In the meantime, those speaking out for young people

on the breadline her pleading with the Westminster Government to think

again. The Scothern says, do not worry, current claimants will not

be affected. -- his government says. I am delighted that those 4,000

will not be affected this year, but they will be affected the next year.

We are going to have a floods of of vulnerable people being made

vulnerable by this appalling policy decision. With me is Lord German of

the Liberal Democrats. A former Deputy First Minister in Cardiff

Bay, who's now chair of the Lib Dem parliamentary committee on work and

pensions. On the housing benefit chain, where do you stand? In his

is not a policy that the Liberal Democrat support. We're trying to

find savings again which will have to come into effect at another

round of savings already made. It is not a Liberal Democrat policy,

it is a Conservative proposal. The Liberal Democrats do not support

this proposal because of the hardship it will cause. I am

certain Liberal Democrats have made their position clear to the Deputy

Prime Minister that a blanket ban of this sort will not work. Think

of the sort of people we are trying to encourage back into work. People

need to have my ability, the need to go out and find a job. A lot are

finding part-time jobs and jobs which do not pay much, but they

have to travel for them. You have to help them with housing well

they're getting on the job market. You were careful to seek a blanket

ban, so at partial ban would be OK? No, I am saying we need to look at

the savings in the Budget which covers a whole raft of things.

There her to fundamentals about her welfare system, it has to act as a

safety net to protect the most vulnerable. Secondly, it has to

help people to help themselves - so in this case getting them back to

work. We have to find ways which do not affect those two principles and

find extra spending cuts somewhere else. Let us give a sense of the

work he had been doing in the last year. When you take your opposition

to this proposal to the Conservative members of the House

of Lords, what did they say? They say we need to find savings and I

accept that. The overall picture of our economy is not too bright. The

welfare budget is huge. We an already cutting as much as we are

cutting, the whole of the welfare budget has been cut from the

welfare budget. I understand we have to find more money, but we

have to find better solutions than blanket bans. Perhaps we should

hold benefits down to a late -- a level of wage increases? The sort

of thing which is acceptable, not nice but acceptable. It was saved

as much money as we are talking about. It comes to housing benefit

change, that is the one people have latched on to, if you have George

Osborne and colleagues insisting on this as a proposal that should be

enacted, what will he do? We will know more when we get to the Autumn

Statement. The debates in the next two weeks are all inside government

and about these issues. Is there any way you could back it in any

form? I do not think this is a proposal that Liberal Democrats

could support. I sense that my colleagues are saying that to me as

well. I have a feeling that this is a very big red line which it

Liberal Democrats will draw in the sand. Thank you very much. Lord

German there. Thanks. Don't forget to get in

touch with your thoughts on opinions - and tell us what you'd

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