11/07/2012 am.pm

Welcome to am.pm, our twice weekly look at what is going on in

politics in Wales, the UK and sometimes beyond. Today, doctors'

leaders put further pressure on health minister at seeing the

controversial report into NHS reforms could be viewed as a

cynical attempt to manipulate opinions. We will be at Prime

Minister's Questions as questions are still being asked about the

future of the House of Lords. I will be hearing about concerns over

Normally joining me throughout the programme we would have two AMs so

it is a busy day, we have only got one, Byron Davies. We will have a

proper chat at the moment. We will begin with the row over the

controversial report into reforms into the Welsh end -- Welsh NHS. We

can Britain news that all three opposition parties have come

together to table a motion of no confidence in the health minister.

The British Medical Association has questioned the independence of the

report into Welsh NHS reforms after it emerged the author contacted

senior civil servants while writing it. It was claims emails between

Marcus Longley and government officials showed a search for

evidence to fit a predetermined conclusion. Liz Hurley Kravis has

strongly denied that has been any - - Lesley Griffiths has strongly

denied there has been any involvement. All three opposition

parties, you have joined together, Oakley he read opposition to table

this motion of no confidence -- a coherent opposition.

Our job is to scrutinise. This is the only way we can effectively do

There was an opportunity yesterday during First Minister's Questions,

Lesley Griffiths made a statement, was then that -- was that not the

appropriate place to scrutinise? didn't have all the answers. She

avoided some of the answers so this is a real opportunity to scrutinise

the government. Back to you in a moment. Earlier

our political editor spoke to the Labour chair of the health

committee. What do you make of the way the

opposition parties are coming together and pushing ahead?

I think the opposition parties are barking up the wrong tree. There is

a serious discussion to be had about the future of health services

in Wales. That is what we should be concentrating on. The rest of it is

end-of- term it sound and fury and doesn't signify much battle.

Cannot harm the health minister? All along they have done more harm

to themselves. Some of the inflammatory language they have

used, the ways in which if they have tried to raise this issue

would be on the seriousness it has, has reflected far more badly on

them. Could the government and Labour as

a group had dealt with it better and not dismissed the claims as

nonsense? It is difficult for the government

when they are attacked in the weight they were from the very

beginning. The opposition parties were not interested in a

substantial discussion. Spokes people were taking to the airwaves

on the attack and in the most inflammatory terms. You have got to

put the government response in that context.

Let's see what you make of that. Some strong words about the

opposition, particularly Darren Millar, their health spokesman,

Mark Davies said a lot of bluster signifying nothing barking up the

wrong tree. Bluster, I don't think so. You have

got to pick any hospital in Wales, they all have issues. It has almost

been chaos. As far as this issue is concerned, just did a reasonable

test, the ordinary and, what will he think? -- the ordinary man.

There is only one conclusion, that is, it is very worrying.

If we look ahead, next Wednesday is when this has been tabled, a vote

of no confidence. Obviously the assembly is finally balance 30-30.

What do you see happening? I c a very interesting debate, a

lively debate. -- I see a very lively debate.

Are you more interested in a minister resigning them the truth?

I would like the truth but there is a case where a minister should be

considering their position. Thank you for the time being.

There is find out what is happening next week and in the Senedd today.

An awful lot happening. Let's start at the beginning of the session,

questions to ministers, today to do business minister, Edwina Hart, and

the finance minister. There will be a statement by the business

minister, Edwina Hart. She is looking at a report that has been

done by a task and Finnish group, it means a group of experts to have

been looking at an issue on behalf of the Welsh government. They have

been looking at the approach to economic development called city

regions. This means the experts seem to think if you get large

populations of people together, 500,000 and more, it is very good

for economic development, it brings a high-paid, high skilled jobs and

lower paid jobs when you get a population of quite wealthy, well-

paid people who need other people to service their needs, as it were.

This has worked effectively in places like Vancouver or, in this

country in Manchester, there is the wide it city region that benefits

from the growth of the city. -- There is the wider city region.

They are looking into whether this could happen in Wales. It might

work in two city regions in the South centred on Cardiff and

Swansea but there isn't a city region in the north. They should be

a lot to come out of that statement this afternoon and the debate that

will follow. On the back of that there is a debate from the inquiry

of the health committee into community pharmacies. They have

been looking at how effectively community pharmacies into BT the

NHS and feel they could contribute more effectively. There is work to

be done to combine efforts more effectively. Another debate from

work done from a committee, the petitions committee, looking into

the control of the noise from wind turbines. We have got many of those

across Wales at the moment. They have recommended the planning

guidance be changed, to put in place buffer zones of 1,500 metres,

between the wind turbines at people's homes. We have got a

debate nominated by Plaid. They want to look at not-for-profit

options in the railway network then Paul Davies will be looking at war

memorials, honouring our heroes and protecting them in Wales and I hope

to talk to him about that subject shortly.

As usual a fabulous line-up of what is going on today. We do have an

idea of what is coming up next Wednesday, we will not be here to

talk about it be you can give us an insight.

As you have already discussed there will be this nation of no

confidence in the health minister, that will be debated next Wednesday,

the first time since the election the three opposition parties have

come together to put it a market down. Two things to think about,

the debate itself, but remember what ever happened in that debate,

even though it will be tight, Lesley Griffiths as health minister

would not have to resign, Carwyn Jones as Health Minister would not

have to force her to resign. There is a question of what will actually

emerged in real terms. A wider question of what impact that debate

and others like it have on this general debate over whether health

service is going in Wales. Lesley Griffiths knows many professionals

are right behind her in terms of taking the health service forward

but will that be enough when there is this public debate over whether

the public can trust a key report on the way to making those changes,

so there is the wider politics of this which will have an impact for

months, years to come and that will be very interesting to watch

unfolding. We will catch up with you later.

Obviously you cannot watch that debate with us but you could watch

That is the gender from Cardiff Bay. Let's go up the M4 to Westminster

where recorder can tell us about the day ahead.

-- where Tomos Livingstone. 91 Conservative MPs opposing plans

for a mainly elected House of Lords. If you arrive at Westminster and

looked at the voting lists you would think the government has got

his House of Lords proposals through with the huge majority so

what is the problem? It got through because Labour voted with the

government side, largely in favour of Lords reform. A few backbenchers

did rebel. The real problem for David Cameron, the Prime Minister,

is 91 Conservatives voted against, a pretty sizable rebellion, when

the coalition doesn't really have a key image -- huge majority itself.

David Cameron is left with two problems, one is how does he patch

things up with the Liberal Democrats, what does he do next

with Lords reform? How does he deal with the 91 rebels? It shows what a

delicate balance this whole coalition business can be,

sometimes. The Lib Dems are saying to David Cameron you have to press

ahead with Lords reform, if you don't maybe we will not let you

preside with redrawing constituency boundaries. The Conservatives are

saying, how long, we let you have the vote on AV. We are pushing

ahead with this even though we are not keen. You are not threatening

you will pull out your support. It does underline how difficult it is,

if one thing is withdrawn, perhaps the whole House of cards comes

tumbling down so David Cameron perhaps a bit relieved that the

summer recess is coming. On the second issue of the rebellion, it

white -- quite a tricky one, can the Prime Minister discipline at

all and 91 MPs who have voted against the government, it is not

really practical. Sir Malcolm Rifkind said I rebel 30 years ago

and two years later I was a member of the government so suggesting

there is no need to tell these people off. There is a problem, in

the longer term, for David Cameron, if history tells us anything was at

the start rebelling is there inside they tend to get a taste for it so

another headache for David Cameron to think about. Three Welsh MPs

voting it gives the government cannot one of them has got a

question to the Prime Minister later on.

The farming minister will be in the spotlight later on. He was in the

spotlight when he was asked how much a pint of milk cost. He said

he didn't but he asked his wife. A classic question that gets thrown

at politicians all the time and sometimes catches them out with

alarming frequency. It costs about 50 pence in the supermarkets. He

said he didn't know and his wife did the shopping. There is a big

protest at Westminster. Farming unions coming to take their case to

the government. They say the supermarkets are squeezing the

price of mock downwards and they are getting less and less power.

Making it almost untenable to keep producing milk. Familiar story but

one keeps coming back as we are facing the effects of the recession

and what we do seem to be lower inflation over the next few months,

few years, but not good news for everybody causing some problems at

the farm gate. There was no point crying over

spilt milk. A very bad-tempered first

Minister's Questions here yesterday. They have got next week to kiss and

make-up. Today is the final Prime Minister's Questions of turn.

It has been quite bad-tempered of the last year or so, David Cameron

has been criticised sometimes for getting a bit too irate at the

dispatch box when answering questions. Some of his aides say if

you look at the last couple of weeks he has been much calmer, more

statesmanlike but when you look at the Lords rebellion and a row over

Barclay's Bank and rate fixing going on, accusations flying back

and forth about who knew what, and when, I did expect there will be

much of the summer mood. I expect it might still be quite bad

tempered on either side but Mr Cameron will be the only word

It's time to go back to market in the Oriel with news of one of

today's debates. I am pleased to say I am joined by the Conservative

AM for Preseli Pembrokeshire, Paul Davies. To talk about your debate

on war memorials this afternoon, why are you bringing that forward

as a subject? War memorials Aaron essential part of our heritage and

culture -- are an essential part, a permanent reminder of the sacrifice

is brave men and women have made for our country and freedoms, and

that is why it is important that we protect war memorial so future

generations can remember those sacrifices, and also that future

generations must learn from those conflicts, from those wars, so they

are never repeated again. What do we need to protect them from?

the short debate today, I am tabling this to explore ways of

protecting war memorials, and putting forward three specific

proposals. Firstly, I think we need an up-to-date national inventory so

we know where more -- war memorials are, who, if anyone is responsible

for them, and I would like to see local authorities drawing up those

lists so they know where memorials are in those areas. Is it the case

that sometimes we don't know who is responsible, then? Absolutely, and

that is why it is essential that local authorities, I think, are

responsible in doing that. Secondly, in terms of protecting

those war memorials, I want to see statutory obligation on local

authorities to protect and maintain those war memorials, currently

under the war memorials Act 1920 tree, it does permit local

authorities -- 1920 treaty, it permits local authorities to

maintain them, but I want legislation on that. Thirdly, I

will be talking about, sadly, the theft we see from scrap on war

memorials, and the need to combat the Pep and see local authorities

working closely with police and scrap metal dealers to combat this

crime. Does that mean actually going into businesses and scrap

metal dealers? You will be aware that particularly the honest ones

won't welcome that kind of intrusion. We have great business

people and scrap metal dealers in Wales at the moment. I understand

they are obliged to register with local authorities, for example, but

local authorities don't have the powers to regulate scrap-metal

dealers, and I think we need to look at that, and it is important

that local authorities and the Welsh Government work closely with

scrap metal dealers to combat this sort of crime, because I understand

scrap metal theft cost local- authority his last year for example

some six-under and �80,000, which is why we need to combat it. We do

look at putting CCTV cameras into yards? -- would you look. That is

worth considering and we need to balance the cost, but we should

explore that. What about vandalism Cup -- vandalism, it is a perennial

problem, but is it any worse now? think, unfortunately, theft and

graffiti are on the rise and this is why am tabling his mission to

raise awareness and protect a war memorials in the future. You will

be aware that local authorities want to do all manner of things and

are looking into things they can get away with not doing at the

moment due to lack of funds. Is it unrealistic to expect them to take

on another statutory duty? I have tabled this debate to explore ways

we can protect war memorials and work with local authorities to do

that. I accept we are living in austere times with tight financial

settlements, but this is a very important thing to our heritage and

culture, which is why we need to protect our war memorials for

future generations to remember those who sacrificed their lives.

Thank you. Paul Davies, a improper say Pembrokeshire.

We will go live to the House of Commons for per Minister's

Questions at 12:00pm. The chief medical officer has warned that

life expectancy is rising slower in poorer -- poorer communities. Dr

Tony Jewell, in his final annual report before he steps down to them

-- from the role, has also called for action to be taken over the

causes of obesity, and as I found that, he wants more attention paid

to health. I caught up with the chief Medical

has -- officer at the home of Doreen Valentine, whose home had

undergone improvements, and Tony Jewell wanted to highlight the

impact of housing on people's health. We know housing affects

your health, and especially when people spend most of the day at

home, and families with young children under five spent a lot

about a time at home as well as disabled people, so at the home is

an important setting for health and we want to improve standards across

Wales. The Government is intending to do that. The Welsh Government is

putting proposals out for consultation which are important in

terms of health setting and I want to draw attention to that in my

report. He found his chat with Mrs Valentine very useful. Every year

we report on what they call excess winter deaths. Mrs Valentine has

talked about the installation on the outside walls of her house,

which you notice made a difference to the heating, and she also has

double glazing on the windows. These things help heating, and we

no heating costs are increasing. And the elderly people -- many

elderly people choose to switch the heating off for financial reasons,

and it is important to have well insulated homes. The need to

provide quality housing has been a big political issue for decades,

which begs the question, why hasn't all been done? In Wales, 50 per

cent of the housing was built before 1919. It doesn't mean it is

bad but these examples about adapting existing houses rather

than building new ones. For someone like Mrs Valentine, it is good to

improve the house and she can ellipse in and is familiar with,

and they think that is a very strong. -- currently lives in.

Looking at the evidence, this is part of a project in

Carmarthenshire using academics to prepare a before and after as well

as control groups, and see whether the effects improve, so it is an

important scientific evaluation as well, because the more evidence,

the stronger it is to encourage investment. Mrs Valentine, a former

nurse who began her career in the same year the NHS came into being,

welcomes the investments she saw in her home. It is warmer. The kitchen

is lovely, the bathroom is lovely, and I wouldn't like to go anywhere

else. What does Byron Davies think about

that? The main themes in the report, we know the government has

published a housing White Paper and intends to improve housing stocks

in Wales. Let me first of all say that

anything that improves people's health in Wales is a good thing. I

don't like intrusive government. I think we have to have a balance

here we are we have to look after people's health. Tony Jewell has a

suggestion that smoking in people's homes needs to be tackled. Would

you stand on that? It is intrusive but it is about educating people

are not to smoke as opposed to regulating it. The issues of more

exercise to help with obesity, I've, for one, would love to see an

example set in the Assembly by having a gymnasium, which

unfortunately we don't have, but we need to set an example ourselves,

actually. In your party, Glyn Davies, now an MP, called for a gym

going back 10 years or so, it still hasn't happened. I wasn't aware of

that but I would support that. Thank you for the time being. The

Welsh Government says the closure of five of Wales's seven Remploy

factories as a hammer blow for workers. The sites are among 27 in

the UK marked for closure. The Minister for Disabled People, Maria

Miller, said the loss-making sites could not be subsidised for that

money could be spent more effectively. One of the closures is

in the constituency of Cynon Valley MP, Ann Clwyd.

I was there last week and will be there this Friday again. One man

said to me, a have been here 20 years, this is my home. So people

have valued working in Wembley and the support it has given them

through France, working in the same factory -- working in Remploy --

through France. They had a job to go to. I think this government is

totally irresponsible to carry out this axing of Remploy factories at

this time. There was a chance when Margaret Thatcher was Schools

Secretary -- a chant, of milk snatcher. The other week people

were chanting Maria Miller, Remploy killer. But is what people are

saying. I am not surprised if she didn't like it. That was the MP,

Ann Clwyd, speaking. She is in the Commons. 11 M is asking an urgent

question about Remploy in the Senedd this afternoon. If you were

speaking in a debate, what would we have to draw a line on

affordability. As a result of the report which recommended people

should go back into the community, which are wholeheartedly agree with,

I think the days of Victorian-style principles with people in factories

is long gone, and I am happy to see people back in the -- back into the

communities, and I have spoken to people in Remploy who had clearly

said they would prefer that. eagle-eyed amongst you will notice

our political correspondent, John Stephenson is here. We are looking

ahead to Prime Minister's Questions. You have spent more years than you

would care to remember, I'm sure, observing Westminster. What can we

expect this afternoon? This session will be very much the morning after

the night before, very much a headache for David Cameron after

what the Commons voted on yesterday, to back the principle of House of

Lords reform, but the government whips and the leader of the house

withdrew the programme motion, meaning the timetable of how they

would deal with the legislation to enable the reform to come into

effect. What will be fascinating are two things, how he deals with

the inevitable question, where does the government go next? How he

deals with a sizable number of backbench Tory MPs, it is important

to remember that the opposition came essentially from a combined

effort from Labour, it also Tory MPs, how he will passer-by and deal

with them, and how he will sweet- talk the Lib Dems who are

essentially part of the government. The reality is that without the Lib

Dems David Cameron would not be Prime Minister. We heard from Tomos

Dafydd earlier as well who's so the balance needed to be struck with

the Lib Dems, who seemed to be claiming a pound of flesh -- who

said. I heard on the radio this morning a suggestion that if there

is no support from the Conservatives for these reports --

reforms in the House of Lords, maybe there is no support for

boundary changes from the Liberal Democrats? They have had the pound

of flesh on the alternative vote system, and I can't see the Lib

Dems coming down to head the on this. They want an opportunity of

government, and they would walk away from that. Is There risk that

we will hear people talking, Mabel -- maybe fanciful talk, from the

Labour benches, but this could be the straw that breaks the camel's

back of the coalition? I don't think so. John, the Lords is up for

discussion, at the final one before the summer, do we think perhaps

either Ed Miliband or David Cameron will try to have the final word and

the upper hand going into summer recess? Well, essentially, a Prime

Minister's Questions is very much double act, a Punch and Judy show.

We saw that last week were the questions being revealed over the

bank rate. Inevitably the two party leaders are very gladiatorial, that

is the nature of PMQs. They are talking about bringing an end to

Punch and Judy politics, David Cameron talked about it. The whole

nature, the geography, the chamber for one thing, you have the benches

facing each other, it is not the shape of the inclusive, if I can

use that word, shape of the Assembly chamber here in Cardiff

Bay. The essence of premises questions is theatre, and the

leader of the opposition trying to lay a punch on the Prime Minister -

- the essence of Prime Minister's Questions. Can I returned the.

Byron Davies made? David Cameron's problem at the moment in the long

term is not just with the Lib Dems. For instance, you have a senior

member of the Conservative Party, get a bed, senior in the sense that

he is a member of the 1922 Committee of the Tory party. He

went on the record yesterday to say he thoroughly oppose the timetable

motion which was withdrawn. If David Cameron has a problem with

someone like him, he has a very real problem within his own party.

We will leave it there for now and get your views after we have heard

from Westminster, where Tomos MPs just finishing off

International Development questions. Further to my visit to Helmand, I

would like to pay tribute to the hard work and dedication of our

forces. The MP for East Surrey. Secretary of State is aware of the

shocking execution of a woman accused of adultery a week ago.

What is the government doing to mitigate the risk of a return to

Taliban cell treatment of women in Afghanistan? -- Taliban style

treatment. The government vigorously condemned the execution.

One of the key ways of transforming Afghan society to prevent the

return of Taliban practices is to get girls into school. When there

are a critical mass that will have a critical effect on Afghan society.

There are nearly two and half million girls in school today.

Quest is to the Prime Minister. Before listing my engagements I am

sure the whole House would wish to pay tribute to police constable Ian

di Belle who was shot and killed in Clacton-on-Sea on Monday. Even

though he was off duty at the time he'd had his of asleep when saw

members of the public at risk. This is typical of the behaviour -- he

acted selflessly. We owe a great debt to those in the police force

and sense and the Beast to his family, friends and colleagues at

Can I associate eyes of and the whole House to the remarks the

Prime Minister has made to the brave police officer and we send

condolences to his family. Can the Prime Minister explain why he is

making it easier for corporate law to be amended by copyright law to

be amended by legislation and has has got anything to do with the 23

meetings he has had with Google? are following the reckon a bed --

recommendations of the Hargreaves Report. A report into the York Hill

child part Unit in Glasgow conducted by Sir Ian Kennedy says

the provision of paediatric intensive care may be unsafe if

critical staffing problems are not addressed. The safe and sustainable

review conducted by Sir Ian Kennedy is now suggesting Leeds unit which

is safe be closed well Glasgow is not affected, it is absurd, this

review needs to be thrown at. say to my honourable friend he

speaks up for his local hospital which is an excellent hospital. My

local hospital has also not been selected under the safe and

sustainable review. I would say, as Prime Minister, but also as a

parent, we have to recognise the operations that are now being

carried out on children in terms of heart operations are incredibly

complicated. It is about trying to save lives, to make sure we

specialise at the most difficult work in a number of hospitals

around the country. These difficult decisions but I am sure what really

matters is more parents don't suffer the agony of losing their

children because we did have the very high standards of care in

hospitals chosen. Can I join the Prime Minister in

paying tribute to the police officer, he demonstrated

extraordinary bravery while being off-duty. His selfless act and

tragic death remind us what the police do for us up and down this

country. Am sure the condolences of the whole House go to his family

and friends. At this last question time before the recess, can I

remind the Prime Minister what he said before the election when he

was asked why he wanted to be Prime Minister. He paused, and with

characteristic humility he said, because I think I would be good at

Where did it all go wrong? It is this government that has --

that has cap benefits, immigration, taking 2 million people out of tax,

cut tax for 25 million people, cut the fuel duty, increased spending

on the NHS, and cut the deficit by 25% in two years. I cannot read out

the list of all the things he got wrong. We haven't got time. They

are obviously well whip today, it is a shame it didn't happen last

night. -- whippet. -- whipped. Last night he lost control of his party

and he lost his temper. We understand it was fisticuffs in the

lobby with the Member for Hereford and South potager. I noticed by the

way the posh boys have ordered him of the state today. He doesn't seem

to be here. -- the estate. Who does the Prime Minister blame most for

the disarray in his government? The Liberal Democrats or his own

backbenchers? If the best he can do is a bunch of

tittle-tattle, how utterly pathetic, on the day we are introducing

social care reform that will help people up and down our country, and

we get this half-baked gossip. Let me say this about House of Lords

reform, if we want is the House of Lords reform, all of those who

support House of Lords reform needed to not only a third for

House of Lords reform, but support the means to bring that about --

not only vote. He came to the House of Commons yesterday determined to

vote yes, and then vote no, how utterly pathetic.

It is the same all story with the Prime Minister. He blames everybody

other than himself. The government is a shambles and he blames the

Leader of the Opposition. That is what it has come to. Mr Speaker,

his problems didn't start last night. They started months ago with

a part-time Chancellor's Budget. They made the wrong choices and

they stand up for the wrong people. Can he remind us after all Budget

U-turns, why he still thinks it is right to give about get any �1

million a �40,000 income tax cut next April?

It was a Budget that cut taxes for millions of people, that it 2

million people out of tax altogether, and has left us with a

top rate of tax that was higher than any of the times he or his

neighbour were in the Treasury, literally wrecking the British

economy. There is no answer on his

millionaire's tax cut and we will keep answering -- asking the

question between now and next April. He is raising taxes on ordinary

families, on pensioners, and cutting tax a millionairess. -- on

a millionairess. Can he explain what has not been explained? He

says week, by the way. What can be weaker than having 91 people vote

against you. Panic he explain what has not been explained since the

Budget, -- can he explain, why is it fair when you are cutting taxes

for millionaire a corporal to last pensioners to pay more. -- for

millionaires to ask pensioners to play more.

The we made the biggest increase in the pension in the pensions history.

What the Budget did was cut taxes for every working can -- -- every

working person in a country. The top rate of tax change and was paid

more than four times over by the richest people in our country. That

compares with what we were left by the party of this it -- party

opposite. We were left with the biggest deficit in Europe and never

was an apology for the mess they left us with.

No answer on the disarray in his government, no answer on the tax

cuts for millionaires, Mel and so on the tax rise for pensioners,

perhaps he has an answer on the biggest issue of all. In his new

year message she said we have got to do more to bring the economy

back to health. What has he delivered since then? A double-dip

recession made in Downing Street. Isn't the reality the biggest

failure facing his government, it is not the programme motion on

Lords reform, it is the whole economic plan.

It is under this government we got 800,000 more private sector jobs,

inflation is down, unemployment is down, interest rates are at a

record low, we are a net exporter of cars for the first time since

1976. We completed the biggest construction project in Europe, the

Olympics, we have started the next book this project, CrossRail, it is

this government that has set up enterprise zones, backed

apprenticeships, that is seeing business rebalance in this country.

We will never forget what we were left by the party opposite. They

were bailing out eurozone countries with taxpayers' money, paying one

of �2,000 for just one family's housing benefit, they had an

controlled welfare, immigration, government spending, never had so

much been borrowed to, wasted, never have so many people been let

down. This country will never forgive them for what they did.

Mr Speaker, the Red day he gets, the less he convinces people. --

Order, order! Members on order, members on both sides of the House,

and now need to calm down. That is all there is too late. Ed Miliband.

It is the same lecture we have had on the economy for the last two

years. Things are getting worse, not better. Every time he gets up

with that list of statistics he shows how out of touch he is. Tax

cuts for millionaires, U-turn after U-turn, isn't the truth, he didn't

just lose the confidence of his party last night, he is losing the

confidence of the country. There is only one person who is red,

and that his red bed. -- is Red Ed. Who backed red Ken Livingstone?

They did. He opposed every measure to view -- who opposed every

measure to deal with the deficit? Who has given the unions more say?

Order, as they did a moment ago the Prime Minister's answers must and

however long it takes, they will be heard. The Prime Minister. What has

he done in the last year? Opposed immigration cab, a post a housing

benefit cap, -- opposed. We know what he is against but when we we

found up what he is 4th? -- when we -- when it will we find out what he

Given the huge excess of the technological college initiative

will the Prime Minister please confirm he will support a further

round of applications this autumn and the funding is available so

Passionate contribution from Anne Very good to see that, she is

absolutely right to speak up for university technical colleges. They

are a great addition to the schools we have in our country. They really

are a high-profile way to have proper vocational education so we

can give young people the skills they need to have a great career in

the future. On Monday the 25th there was a possible administration

of the NHS Trust, and that night he met with the members for Bexley and

Bromley. Despite the Greenwich members asking for such a meeting,

at this moment in time there is no date in the diary and no date

forthcoming. Can the Prime Minister explain to me why the resident of

Greenwich are not given the same respect by his minister as the

residents of Bexley and Bromley? The honourable lady raises an

aborted point. It is a difficult situation that has taken place at

his NHS Trust. -- raises an important point. It is partly

because of the PFI contract which are completely unsustainable. I

will take very seriously what she says and see if I can arrange a

meeting between her and one of their health ministers to discuss

Does my right honourable friend share my sense of insecure --

incredulity that the party opposite continued to oppose a benefit pack

up, and does the show who is on the right side of hard-working

families? It is an important point, they came to the House of Commons

and said they would back the welfare cap but when it came to the

crunch they opposed it, and it is right, it shows who is on the side

of those who work hard and want to do the best for their families,

country and community, and using sea should be better off on

benefits. We back the workers, they that the shirkers. -- who should be

better off on benefits. The second Battalion and the Royal Regiment of

Fusiliers will be disbanded meaning 600 soldiers face redundancy. This

is a battalion and regiment with a proud history of service to this

country. Will the Prime Minister not reconsider the cut to this

battalion? We looked at this issue incredibly carefully and to guard

time, which many times we were criticised for doing, -- to cut

time, and I think the decision to have a small regular army of 80,000

and larger reserve Territorial Army at 30,000, is the right balance.

The government is putting �1.5 billion into building up the

reserves and I hope they us across the house will cut the prices of

encouraging members to allow reservists to serve their country.

I think it is -- the right decision. We have made sure no existing

regimental names or cap badges will be lost, and it needs the right

course for the future. Independent observers hailed the first free

elections in Libya for 47 years as broadly free and transparent and

offering real hope for the future. Does my right honourable friend

agree that we should congratulate the Libyan people on the progress

made since their successful struggle to overthrow a brutal 40-

year-old dictatorship, and the message is also a sense to others

who yearn for democracy in their countries? I am sure we speak for

the whole house and the whole country in sending our

congratulations to the Libyan people in what looked like

successful elections. A year ago, things did not look as if they

would turn out well in Libya. I am proud of the fact that the Nato

alliance and this country stayed true to the course and help secured

the right outcome in Libya, and those people now have the chance of

successful democracy and prosperity. We have been consulting on the

closure of four out of nine accident and emergency units. The

medical luck -- directors said north-west London would literally

run out of many of these closures don't happen. What kind of

consultation is it that poses a choice between the closure of half

the accident and emergency units and -- in north-west London and the

potential bankruptcy of the local NHS? I would say on the issue of

money we have put a �12.5 billion extra into the NHS, a decision her

party opposes, and said extra spending on the NHS is

"irresponsible four we will make sure local people, traditions and

GPs are listened to. We will ensure good access to units for all our

people. As minor trouble France -- has his attention been drawn to be

a a's advertisement that the regular train service to Stansted

Airport takes 47 minutes, which is not universally correct across the

timetable, and in any case is too long, and when he commit to a major

upgrade of the West Anglia line so that -- he's dandelion, so there is

a good train service and my constituents get the to me they

deserve? I am -- I understand why he wants to speak up for his

constituents, but I can say as part of the new East Anglia rail

franchise from the sum of 2014 we were last bidders to propose

affordable investment aimed at improving services, and ensure they

will listen carefully to what he said. The government rightly

donates millions of overseas aid to developing countries including

India, to eradicate poverty and disease. Despite this, the Canadian

government, including the government of Quebec, will invest

$58 million in asbestos producing mines, not for use in Canada, but

to export to developing countries including India, which will put

thousands of poor people at risk from the deadly asbestos related

diseases. Will the Prime Minister and international development

secretary encourage international community's including the World

Health Organisation to oppose this outrageous decision? I will see the

head of the World Health Organisation later today so I can

raise this issue with them. Asbestos is banned in the UK, EU

and a number of other countries. We are opposed to is used anywhere and

deplore his supply to developing countries. If it does not dodge the

departure of four international element does not fund countries

exporting asbestos, and we are not aware that funds have been used in

that way. I would take urgent action were that get the case, but

I think he makes a strong point regarding the Indian situation.

September for the European Court of Human Rights is hearing the case of

the lady who lost her job at British Airways for wearing a

crucifix as a mark of for Christianity. The behaviour of

British Airways in this was disgraceful political correctness.

So I was surprised to see the government is resisting her appeal.

I cannot believe the government is supporting this oppression of

religious freedom in the workplace, so what were we do about this sad

case? -- will we do? The ones I can say I agree with my Right

Honourable Friend -- for once. I support the right way religious

symbols at work, I think it is a vital religious freedoms. What we

will do is, if it turns out the law has the intention, as has come at

in this case, we will change the law and make sure people can wear

religious emblems at work. Independent action produced report

shows that by 2015 the most vulnerable families in this country,

including those employed, will lose �3,000 a year because of this

Government's policies, at a time when millionaires are getting tax

cuts of more than �40,000 a year. Can he stand at the dispatch box

and say we are all in this together? I know the report doesn't

include some of the steps we have taken, for instance, providing more

nursery education for disadvantaged to year-olds, but above all, if he

looks at the Universal Credit and its design, we will be helping

parents with the most disabled children to make sure they get the

help they need. Will the Prime Minister comment on the worrying

stand-off between the Egyptian military, who are clearly tried to

cling on to power in defiance of the Arab Spring, and Mr Mohammed

Morsi, who is undoubtedly the Democratic be elected President of

Egypt? Thus democratically-elected. This is an important point, I am

struck by what the peasants as a but governing on behalf of everyone

in Egypt and respecting religious and other freedoms, and I hope the

current tension can be resolved. But I think people have to respect

the democratic will of the Egyptian people as they expressed it. He in

the last election the Prime Minister promised the pensioner's

bus passes were safe. Will he reject calls from the Liberal

Democrats and now his close ally at -- ally, the Member for Grantham

and Stamford us, and categorically without means testing of bus passes,

including in the manifesto for the next general election? At the last

election I made it clear promise about bus passes, television

licences, it winter fuel payments, we are keeping all those promises.

LAUGHTER. As Melinda Gates recently said, women in developing countries

want to look Ray's educated children who can contradicted

prosperous communities. Would he agree that away to support this

aspiration is to help those who wish to do so? The Honourable Lady

is right, and later today I will speak to a seminar event with

Melinda Gates and a range of leaders from across Africa and

other parts of the developing world's about exactly this issue.

We should do more to allow mothers access to birth control so they can

plan their family size. All the evidence shows that as countries

develop, family size reduces and populations become more sustainable,

but we should help people plan that process. It is not about telling

people what to do but allowing them the choice which we take for

granted in this country. Members will know that St Patrick, the

Roman Britain, is a unifying figure. He established his mission in my

constituency of South Down, where today, many people of all faiths,

draw on his legacy and work unstintingly to build peace across

the divide. Will the Prime Minister when next in Northern Ireland,

perhaps during the Olympics, come to St Patrick's country and meet

with these people and witness St Patrick's unique heritage for

himself, where he would fight any rebel Tories? LAUGHTER. I don't

know whether the Honourable Lady can guarantee that. We have an

active branch in Northern Ireland, aren't it is set -- and it is an

intriguing and kind invitation, and they hope the Olympics will bring

the whole of the UK together. The torch relay has already helped

achieve that, and I was privileged to see it in my own constituency.

It was a successful tour in Northern Ireland, and if I can

accept the invitation, I will. of the success stories of this

government is his commitment to rural communities and farming.

Nearly 2000 dairy farmers are meeting in Westminster today to

fight drastic reductions in prices at hands of processes and

supermarkets. Will the Prime Minister during a fight to get a

fair deal for their product? He is right to speak up for British

farmers and does an extremely good job in doing that. This government

is investing in our countryside, not least with the rural broadband

programme, but we want a fairer deal between farmers and

supermarkets, which is why we will legislate for the adjudication he

supports. I can also say that today we are announcing �5 million extra

under the rural economy grants scheme, to help make out dairy

industry, which we should be very proud of, more competitive. What

will the Prime Minister say to the 150,000 adults that the government

itself estimates will be denied a second chance for education as a

result of their plans to charge full-cost fees to over 24 year olds

studying A-level and a government programmes and access courses?

There will be a false statement on this later in the week but it is

important that we expand further education opportunities in our

country, and to do that we need to be clear about how to pay for them.

That is what we repeatedly get from the party opposite, complaints

about this or that policy, but no idea how they would pay for any of

their policies. The government has certainly achieved a great deal in

the last two years. Given that new issues are emerging as we enter the

30th of coalition, does the Prime Minister agree with me that now

would be a good time for the political agreement for the future?

-- the third year of coalition. absolutely agree that in a

coalition you need to keep working out the next set of things you want

to achieve. This coalition has achieved cuts to corporation tax,

taking people out of income tax, a massive expansion of trust schools,

a huge contribution to our health service which is now performing

better than any time in the last decade, and I am committed to

ensuring we take all the next steps to make our country a better place.

Her grandfather from Blaenau Gwent was talking about his son returning

from Afghanistan. Labour has promised big companies like John

Lewis will guarantee an interview for veterans. Will the Prime

Minister do the same? I welcome what he says and think we should do

everything we can to work with employers, public or private sector,

to help find former service personnel jobs. They have been

brilliantly trained and contributed incredible things to our country,

and we can do much more to help them find work. For instance, in

the public sector, by Right Honourable Friend the Education

to teachers to get people who have served our country to inspire

future generations, which is a brilliant scheme. The army will

reduce to its smaller size since 1750, and half the size it was at

the time of the Falklands war. Does he accept that history is not kind

to prime ministers who are perceived to have left our country

without a strong defence capability? I know with the

garrison in his constituency, he speaks with great power about

military issues. What I would say is that if you look at the overall

balance of what we are doing, 80,000 regular soldiers, but his

1000 Territorial Army, fully funded, meaning the army is a similar size

afterwards. The important thing is that we inherited a �38 billion

deficit in our defence budget. We have close that the visit and it is

fully funded. We have huge investment going ahead for our army,

navy and air force, and his country under this government will always

Can he tell us when the Chancellor of Exchequer will admit he made

false allegations and apologise? we look at what my right honourable

friend the Chancellor said, he said the Shadow Chancellor had some

questions to answer. I am not sure there is anyone in this House he

doesn't think the Shadow Chancellor has some questions to answer.

Perhaps before we break for the summer we should be remember what a

few of those questions are? Who designed the regulatory system that

failed? He was city Minister when Northern Rock was selling 110%

mortgages? Who advised the Chancellor and Prime Minister there

was no more boom and bust? Who helped create the biggest boom, the

biggest bust, and has never apologised for the dreadful record

he had in office? Cherie's Prix remains the only

county town in England without a directory -- direct rail link to

the capital city -- Shrewsbury. When the new rail French shows are

apportioned will the Prime Minister used his good office to endure the

government has everything impossible to insure it is

connected to our capital city? My honourable friend always speaks

for Cherie's breed, and he is absolutely right. When the

franchises I looked at -- Shrewsbury,, I'm sure rail

operators will listen very carefully. My constituent is

recovering from cancer but she has had her E S A stopped after 365

days. The government consultation on changing this rule ended in

March. When are we going to see justice for the 7,000 cancer

patients are in this situation? I have looked at this case and I

know she has now had a response from the Minister about this issue.

There are two types, one of them every there is permanent support

are not means tested, and another weather is means-tested after one

year. We are making sure more people with cancer are getting more

help and more treatment. That is very important. It is absolutely

right there ralph two forms of support allowance so those people

who cannot work, he genuinely cannot work or prepared for work

get throughout -- get supported throughout their lives. A pretty

lively, bad-tempered affair with those exchanges between Ed Miliband

and David Cameron. It might be time to look again at whether coalition

agreement goes next. Plenty for MPs to mull over as they head off on

the summer holidays, plenty to discuss in the studio.

We have a coalition of sorts on the sofa. At least one member of the

Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. Let's have your view

about the vote on Lords reform. The vote has passed but it does seem up

laws reform is maybe as far away now as it was previously. -- Lords

reform. I did think so. What the Prime Minister needs to do is win

consensus in his own party and when that authority back. Will to reform

is something that is very important. We believe our power should be in

the hands of people, our process should be completely democratic as

far as possible. And that is something we are committed to

seeing. How much do you think this rebellion perhaps from the

Conservative point-of-view is aimed at destabilising the coalition?

There are plenty who are not happy? A There are some individuals who

would rather they had won the election but they didn't. We would

rather we won the election. We have a coalition and we have to make it

work, we have to be responsible, and keep that coalition together

for the best interests of the country. It is not in the best

interests of the country when Iraq financial crisis rocketing around

Europe for a stupid ourselves in some kind of political chaos. --

for us to picture ourselves. I don't think it is under serious

threat. What price must the coalition stay

together, that Simon Hughes mentioned this morning on the radio,

he might expect the Conservatives to pull behind the Coalition on

Lord reform to get reforms on boundaries through, is that not

holding the government to ransom? Not at all, part of the coalition

agreement. If one partner sticks to their part of agree that the other

will do so as well. If there is renegotiation it is only to be

expected that more than one area will potentially be renegotiated. A

partnership is about give and take and if one partner is asked to give

certainly the other partner ought to be asked to give as well.

You have got a few which you shared. -- An opinion which you share. We

did give up on the alternative vote referendum. It is an issue of

negotiation and making compromises. That is clearly the only way at the

moment. What did you make of David

Cameron's attack on Ed Balls? A sense of pantomime about it with

the MPs joining in. With the summer recess assessed --

ahead it is not surprising the final question time took that path.

Ed Balls have -- has got an awful lot to answer for. The Prime

Minister outlined exactly what he did to contribute to the disaster

we find ourselves in. He didn't look very happy. I should

think not. What did you make of the parliamentary pantomime?

It is one of the things that gives character to the House of

parliament but there are serious questions to answer. If you will

fling mud from one side of the Chamber to another you cannot be

all that surprised if it comes back again from time to time.

With the recess now ahead, is that perhaps, David Cameron's attempt to

get the upper hand as we go away from the Commons for a couple of

months and we will possibly see less of politicians?

David Cameron will need to go back to his own supporters and make sure

he has a united party going into the next parliamentary term.

Obviously there have been signs of rebellion on a number of issues and

he needs to get that in the bud a share his authority. Nick Clegg

will obviously be working with his activists to discuss whether

coalition goes from here. The coalition has actually delivered a

huge pall portion of what it originally intended -- a huge

proportion. There is an opportunity to look to the future and to

discuss what other things we might choose to deliver together in

partnership. Are you quite happy the Prime

Minister will be able to nip it in the bud, as she suggests he should

try and do? I think he can. He is a very strong

leader. MPs have to represent the people that fit for them, and you

see a little bit of muscle-flexing from time to time -- that a vote

for them. He is a strong leader and he will have the party behind him.

Coming up on am.pm we will hear Welsh government concerns about a

new way of allocating council tax rebates.

But before we hear about that it is time to go back to mark in the

Oriel. I will talk to Plaid Cymru's Glyn

Thomas about rail franchise. You're not happy with the way it operates

and want it to change, what is wrong?

A lack of investment at the moment in terms of the passenger service.

We would to see the passenger experience improved, and we are

looking at different models in order to ensure that happens and

people feel they -- their experience of travelling on trains

improves. The service is run by Arriva Trains

Wales. You have made it clear in your idea you don't blame them, but

she blown up model. We are looking for a dividend, based on water, and

how that could be used to ensure there is more investment into the

service and in short there is more frequency in terms of trains and

there was more, but on those trains -- in short there is more frequency.

We want to make the price is more competitive. -- make sure the price

is more competitive. I did have a problem with renationalisation but

European regulation would be difficult. Not for dividend model,

something which has worked successfully. They do make a profit.

But they actually reinvest their profits into the service they offer.

Had as a work for economic lay people like myself, if it is not

the government, an arms-length company but the best the profits

into services? -- they reinvest the profits. Baby investing to the

company, did have shelled us. We would like to seek representation

into the Welsh government. It is a quite a clever mechanisation.

a very clever system of ensuring greater investment into the service

and injuring passengers getting a better service. -- and ensuring.

Presumably there is a great cost to running the services which the

Welsh government in future might need to take more on board? They is

aghast but those profits would be reinvested and therefore we could

improve those -- There is a cost. Heavily if we improved the service

more people would be using it. -- hopefully. Could this lead to more

services? Certainly the investment would lead to greater frequency in

terms of Jenny's and a better experience for people using their

strains -- journeys. You get an indication of cross-party support?

I have raised the issue with the Minister and got a positive

response from him. He is quite happy to look at that has hopefully

we can work together. We will see where it goes from here.

Let's see what our guests thing. If your initial reaction to the idea

of the not for dividend projects. A social enterprise is a business

at the end of the day so I will not dismiss it. Glad to see some

clarity around what he is saying because the actual motion was

somewhat confusing. I will not dismiss it.

Do you get the train here sometimes? I do at times. I find it

is a very good service, actually. It is something we should be taken

up by more people. -- that should be taken up.

Your fellow party member, Eleanor Burnham, always complain there was

no buffet car. I was terribly sorry to hear it.

Today's debate, I'm glad to hear Roger describing what he is trying

to achieve because the debate talks about the rail network and the rail

network as far as I understand is the infrastructure. It is run and

managed for us by Network Rail. Which is a not for dividend company.

So in their mission they are asking the was government to investigate

setting up what we already have and that doesn't seem to be a fantastic

use. It wasn't really what he was suggesting. Unfortunately...

clumsy tabling of the debate. has led people do miss understand

what they are hoping to achieve. Her filly or all AMs will be

listening -- hopefully. I think it is always plausible to look at

social enterprises are running infrastructure projects, such as

Network Rail do. There is no reason why it a rail operating company can

be a social enterprise of some form but to insist upon it in a

franchise agreement might be difficult, they may be legal

difficulties around competition law and the torment practice, all of

those things we need to take into account. -- procurement practice.

Electrification to Swansea, we still hear, is being discussed.

Anything you can tell us. I have no inside information, I am afraid.

Sorry to disappoint you. I know it has to be announced before the end

of July. I'm very much looking forward to a positive announcement

for Swansea and it will be a party MPs agreed in principle to push

ahead with plans to create a mainly elected upper house, championed by

the Lib Dems, but a vote on a timetable for debating was dropped

after dozens of Tory MPs made clear they would defy party orders and

side with Labour, so where does this leave Lords reform? Bethan

James has been speaking to a Welsh Liberal Democrat Lord.

MPs may have voted in favour of Lords reform last night, but that

in no way it means that reform will happen. To discuss last night's

events with me a little further is the Liberal Democrat peer Lord

German. Your leader in the Commons says last night was a victory for

those in favour of reform, but be honest, that description is far

from the truth. Well, it is one step forward, meaning we have a

huge majority of the House Commons favouring reform, and now we are on

hold, which is disappointing -- the House of Commons. So it is

disappointing but for the first time Parliament has spoken with a

huge voice, it is a massive majority in favour of reform, so

people know that they have to do reform, and now has the time to

bang heads together and find a way forward. We have the space to do

that in, so yes, I am disappointed we could not proceed immediately,

but I am confident that a deal is a deal, the Prime Minister must deal

bit -- picks the deal to make sure it works, but on the other hand we

have a huge Labour majority supporting the movement, and they

have to come -- come up with a way of making it happen. Interestingly

there is an unholy alliance of rebels and -- on the right of the

Conservatives and the left of the Labour Party. In Wales we have

members on the left and right coalescing in opposing it, but the

vast majority of Labour and Conservative and Liberal Democrats

are in favour of these reforms. say it is a step forward, but it is

going nowhere, really, isn't it, because without a timetable, this

Bill is unlikely to get through both Houses of Parliament. There

has to be a timetable, you can't do it any other way. There were many

suggest -- sensible suggestions during yesterday's debate as to the

number of days we need to debate it. That is clearly where the

negotiation needs to take place with the Labour Party. After all,

they have their troops firmly in line, a few hanging out on the side

on the left, but they have their troops in line to support reform,

and now they have to decide how to make it work. Had the same time,

the Conservative Party, David Cameron has a job with his own MPs

to ensure he comes up with the way forward as well. They have to get

together now, work together, come up and support the majority in

parliament. They have to transmit that majority in parliament into a

majority in favour of a way forward for this Bill. But plenty of

Conservative MPs, Conservative rebels and Labour MPs say it the

timetable proposed, which was a limit of 10 days to discuss, wasn't

long enough. What is going to be long enough, and should this house

really be discussing a Lords reform bill for 20, 30, 40 days? That is

part of the discussion people must have. Any sensible person would

tell you you need some sort of timetable to ensure it gets through

Parliament so you don't clog up the works. Now is the time for them to

come up with the goods. After all, their parties have supported the

move forward and said they want reform, they have voted for it in

principle, now they need to come up with the goods, let's hear the

answer to the question of how many days they want. This is a question

for Miliband and Cameron. They have to fix this to make sure we take

for with the will of the House of Commons. A liberal code --

Democrats are fuming with -- the Liberal Democrats are fuming with

those who said they were going to rebel. What does this mean for the

coalition, if you don't get this legislation, is that the end?

have a contract for the Conservative Party for this

Parliament and we will work together. We have a program written

out, whichever body signed up to, and there are things we felt

uncomfortable with which we had to vote for and they had to do the

same -- which everybody signed up to. It is down to the party

leadership to ensure they delivered, which is why having a pause makes

it work. So a deal is a deal, but is that -- if that doesn't happen,

is the coalition finished? This is a deal, and it is down to the

Conservative Party to deliver the deal, and I will wait to see what

he proposes, because he clearly knows he has a problem, that is

self-evident, but how he approaches it is what we are having this pause

for, this time to reflect. But of course it is a strong message to

David Cameron that we have to get something through this parliament,

because that is the will of Parliament. That is what they said

last night, now you have to make it work. Lord German, thank you.

The UK government is devolving responsibility for council tax

rebates to the Welsh Government under the welfare changes which

mean the work -- and the Welsh Government says it has been done in

haste and it will not receive the information from Westminster until

November with implication -- it due to start in 20th April 13. Cheryl

Gillan says the Welsh Government will be kept informed. Mark Hannaby

spoke to local government minister, Carl Sargeant.

How well council tax benefit change? The UK government are

passing the duty over to the Welsh Government with a lot less cash as

well, around 10 per cent minimum reduction in the core funding for

delivery, and still dispute about that, whether it will be 10 or 14

per cent. People might find it hard to get their head around

percentages. What difference will it make in terms of delivery?

�70 odd of difference to a family income, which is significant for

people and the way they live their lives. Remember this is not about

unemployment benefit but people's benefit to support them living in

property, and this will have a huge effect across huge swathes of Wales.

This kicks in next year, so you have to make contingency plans for

how you will take on that responsibility. What would you do?

Welfare reform is a big quantum unknown, still. We had discussions

with Iain Duncan Smith in Westminster about the core funding

for council tax benefit and the Social Fund, and we don't know what

the core is or what the administration value is to

distribute it, or actually the way we will do this. I am very

concerned that by April in next year we have a scheme we are able

to deliver. With so many unknowns it is very challenging. Don't you

have to Plan B on the unknowns? You can't assume you will get much out

of the UK government. You have to make your and arrangements.

accept that we will get less money. I don't support the principle, but

there we are. The issue of 10 per cent or 14 per cent will be

discussed. For me, the administration work this will cause

to local authorities about how to distribute something with an

unknown, will be challenging. We are doing that already, working

with local authorities to see how we can best provide a service, but

with no money to fund its jet, or an unknown quantity, that is very

difficult as I am sure you appreciate -- find it yet. How far

down the line are you in terms of continuing to Dr Iain Duncan Smith

at Westminster and negotiating with local authorities? We have been

working on a weekly basis for the Department for it and pensions to

tease out the numbers. I met Iain Duncan Smith just over a week ago -

- the Department for a can pensions. The numbers are still difficult to

work out going forward. But the Local Government Association and

finance teams for local government are working closely to try to

create certainty around and all Wales scheme, which is what we

intend to do, and we are working hard to achieve it. Do we have

higher numbers of council tax benefit in Wales than the rest of

the UK? The issue will be a disproportionate number more people

affected in Wales, single people having an impact, it had an impact

on their livelihoods. We have to try and deal with it. -- having an

impact. While you are here, I must ask you about the motion late by

the three opposition parties of no confidence in the health minister.

How do you react to that? -- the motion late. That is rubbish. He is

an excellent minister who has done great things in the financial

aspects, which was pushed on us by Westminster. It is nonsense and it

is the opposition parties tried to make mischief. Nonsense or not, it

will change the Confederation of the parties and make it harder for

your government to deliver. -- Configuration. They need to ask why

we have �1.7 billion less in our budget in Wales. We have done it --

make a fundamental change in public service before we get failure. I

believe the services do their best in doing that. But you want to move

your programme forward and this makes it harder. The money is the

equivalent of 13 authorities getting nothing at all. When there

is no more the -- more money in the Percy cannot get more out, so you

need to do things differently. This is how we are doing it. -- more

money in the purse you cannot get more out.

Carl Sargeant robust as usual there. A quick chat with the guests before

we get on to health. Council tax rebates, what did you make of what

the minister said? Desperate stuff from the Minister again. He is

whingeing about having six months' notice to implement something, but

it is exactly the same minister who gave bus companies less than three

months' notice to deliver something they only had -- they have a

contractual obligation to give six months' notice to and services on,

so it is desperate. We need to see ministers taking responsibility for

their job rather than incessantly passing the buck back to

Westminster. Grow up, take responsibility. Okay, as robust as

the minister himself, but on that subject, Carl Sargeant, I just

wrote down some of the things he said that you are in opposition.

"chances, nonsense, rubbish ." He says the UK government, which will

parties are in, has given the Assembly even less money. I would

say, shabby on their part. I will write that down now! I have to say

they have very short memories. 57 trillion pounds of debt, �100

million a day in interest, no wonder we are in this state. They

have to answer to that. That the sides, he didn't think much of your

plan to call a vote of no confidence in health minister.

is not unexpected, really, is it? As has so that the beginning this

is about scrutiny and our responsibility to bring the

government to task -- as I said at the beginning. We are not happy

with the health minister and it is our job to question it, and we will

do that. There was an opportunity yesterday, wasn't there, to ask the

First Minister and the Health Minister about this. Yes. What did

you make of the way they responded to questions? It is appalling. They

have come out all guns blazing on the attack and accused the

opposition parties have been shabby, but the truth is, it is our job to

provide scrutiny of the work the government does on behalf of the

people of Wales. If we feel they are doing that poorly, we should

ask them questions. Neither the Minister nor the First Minister

answered a single question. It is no wonder we have no confidence in

her. We have no idea what her justification is. Lesley Griffiths

was saying yesterday in response to questions... The First Minister

said in response to Leanne Wood from Plaid Cymru, showers the

evidence of collusion, that was the main accusation -- Show as the

evidence, and she says there was no evidence and the report was

transparent. Kirsty Williams gave her repeated examples of the report

author asking for"killer facts", Welsh Government officials asking

the report also there to make a more persuasive vision. This isn't

data, this isn't information, this is leading the report to a

particular conclusion, and that is clear evidence of collusion. It is

not acceptable to them for a that back in the faces... It doesn't

mean the minister knew anything about it. Then it is a question of

her competence or her judgment. She should know what officials are

doing in their names. This is the director of the health department.

If she doesn't know, there is a confidence question to answer.

We are out of time. Thank you for joining us today. That is all from