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You make it sound like First Dates. I think I will need Fred, the | :00:11. | :00:24. | |
concierge, to help us unaware. I hadn't really honoured to have been | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
asked to give this lecture, honoured personally but also in particular | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
because of the very invitation. It shows how the world has changed, and | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
I believe for the better. Apart from being the great novelist we know, | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
George Orwell was a guardian both of language and of democracy. He was a | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
foretell of future perils and as Tony saw rightly says a man of the | :00:51. | :01:07. | |
left, but he was also an old and here I stand to give a lecture in | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
his honour. I don't kid myself he would approve. He said that | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
politicians imply language to make murder respectable and give an | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
appearance of solidity to pure wind. Goodness knows what he would make of | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
the current election campaign. Strong, stable... No! | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
LAUGHTER I want to take a step back from the | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
general election, if only for an hour, to discuss one element of his | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
legacy, and as a subject matter I have chosen what we might now called | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
the politics of identity, or the question of nationalism and | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
patriotism. It was Orwell who wrote the two should not be confused, and | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
I would like to use this speech to examine the differences between the | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
two and how we need to combat the narrow nationalism of our times and | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
find a more pluralistic unpatriotic way forward. I would also like to | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
speak about some of my own experiences as a politician in | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
Scotland, and as someone who for more than five years has been | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
contesting a constitutional battle for identity politics has become | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
staples of the debate. To begin with, if we are going to discuss | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
this evening the difference between patriotism and nationalism I think | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
we should begin by defining exactly what it is we mean. What first then | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
of patriotism? For Orwell, patriotism was devotion to a | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
particular place, which he says "One believes to be the best in the world | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
but has no wish to force on other people." For me patriotism is the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
accepted that one might as easily have come from Brazil as Britain, | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
but which are the same time recognises that since we are here, | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
in Britain, and since we all happen to be born on this particular set of | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
rocky islands in the north-west corner of Europe, let us all | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
celebrate it and feel pride in it, let us cheer Mo Farah directory, but | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
let's make sure we stick around and watch Usain Bolt break another | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
record as well. As Orwell suggests, patriotism is more unlikely. It | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
doesn't impose itself, doesn't take itself too seriously. It is the want | :03:15. | :03:25. | |
that the UK will succeed at the Eurovision but not really caring | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
when Bulgaria gives us nil points. LAUGHTER | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
It is my preparation of dogs but not mind when people prefer cats. It is | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
my coming out as homosexual women but not having a problem with | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
heterosexual men, as long as they take the bins out! | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
LAUGHTER So to be patriotically British does | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
not mean we have to oppose. Indeed patriotism celebrates difference and | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
messiness and we can be proudly Scottish, Welsh, Asian, Pakistani, | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
and at the same time enjoy our Britishness. Patriotism does not | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
force us to rank these identities in order as if one or other has a | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
higher claim. I am proud to be Scottish and British. I am proud to | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
be Scottish and British and have campaigned for the UK to remain | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
within the EU. I'm proud to be Scottish and British female in a | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
Christian and Conservative and from five and a fan of Hamilton the and | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
prepare dogs to cats, and so on. Patriotism simply says here is | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
great, come on in, the water is lovely. Patriotism is in this | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
respect are very positive thing, thing that can be sure, joined. It | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
doesn't set barriers but it celebrates our place in the world. | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
-- it can be shared and joined. If that is patriotism, how do we define | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
nationalism? Words are powerful beasts, and this one, nationalism, | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
appears at first glance to be very near synonym for patriotism, and | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
indeed for many the two are completely interchangeable. For | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
Orwell, however, they were very different. When he was writing about | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
nationalism in 1945, it was a time when the impact of aggressive | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
nationalism was of a different order of magnitude than anything we face | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
today, and his definition of nationalism was not only referring | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
to nationhood or attachment a government. Rather, National was in | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
his view the process of thinking one's individuality into a bigger | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
unit, whether a country or a political ideology or a religion. He | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
defined it as the assertion that this unit should be promoted above | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
all else as inherently virtuous, and that which was not that unit was | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
therefore without such virtue. By nationalism and he wrote, "I mean | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
first of all the habit of assuring that human beings can be classified | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
like insects and that whole blocks of millions are tens of millions of | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
people can be confidently labelled good or bad." He continued that | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
nationalism is the habit of identifying oneself with a single | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
no other duty than that which advances its interests. Orwell is | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
describing nationalism as a form of what today we would call identity | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
politics. And it is one of which he is clearly not a fan. It is a state | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
of mind by which definition cannot tolerate plurality. It is a state of | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
mind where one ideology, one method, must take precedence over all else | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
and which demands people support one camp or the other. And if you are | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
unwilling to make that decision then National 'ss will be perfectly happy | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
to make it for you. -- Nationalists will be perfectly happy to make it | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
for you. And treating people like insects to be smeared onto a display | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
board takes the force of a moral imperative. If we go back to Orwell | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
again, he said" as nearly as possible no nationalised Evra Cox, | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
thinks are right about anything except the superiority of his own | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
power unit -- no Nationalist ever talks. No nationalised can conceal | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
his allegiance." Patriotism can be the celebration of random geography, | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
but nationalism is the assertion that your place, your view, your | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
belief, the man's pre-eminence above all else. They are, I suggest, not | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
so much synonyms as mere polar opposites. I want to say something | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
that will I suspect getting into quite a bit of trouble, especially | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
this close to an election, and it is this. Unfortunately, when it comes | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
to nationalism, Orwell has all of us skewered, including myself. Because | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
very few of us, particularly those involved in politics like Tony and | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
myself, can really say we do not exhibit some degree and elements of | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
these characteristics in ourselves. Politicians by our very nature | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
divide into campus. Our camp, we declare, is where all the wisdom, | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
morality, energy and decency resides, and we assert that nothing | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
but perfidy lies in the other. This is the nature of party politics, | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
particularly three weeks out from an election, or three weeks on | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
Thursday, if you're counting. So George kind of got us on that one, | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
but it is not just politicians. Orwell has all of us. We are a | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
tribal species and in our effort to make sense of the world it would | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
simply be easier to draw the boundaries of our own identities | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
with our rejection of the other. And a further uncomfortable truth Orwell | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
hit upon 70 years ago is that for some of us the Nationalist instinct | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
is stronger than for others. To be specific in this instance, I will | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
speak of us Scots. There was an MP who said in a speech to parliament | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
that every Scotsman should be a Scottish nationalist. It was not | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
Alex Salmond but was John Buchan, the author of The 39 Steps, Unionist | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
MPs. He went on to add that if it could be proved a Scottish | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
Parliament were desirable, we should support it. He proved in the early | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
days Unionists to be devolutionist as well. In short, nationalism runs | :09:32. | :09:39. | |
deep, particularly when as often is the case your football and rugby | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
team is getting hammered, and indeed on such occasions I am sorry to have | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
to report that even the most passionate Pro-union Scots may have | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
questioned both the fortunate and parentage or large swathes of the | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
English population. In short, nationalism is part of the Scottish | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
psyche and it would only be hypocritical to deny it. But the | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
challenge laid by Orwell, the challenge, it is how we react? Do we | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
submit before this Nationalist instinct? And | :10:11. | :10:28. | |
dichotomy it demands of us? Or do we follow patriotism, where... And like | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
all great writers the questions posed by Orwell tamers. It seems to | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
me that far from fading overtime this one demands are direct | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
attention now, because whether it is due to the perceived failure of | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
globalisation or the after-shocks of the financial crash, we all know the | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
Nationalist impulse strengthened once again in recent years. In | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
America, Britain, France and all across Europe, we see it, that in | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
order to rise again, others must be put down. That we cannot build a | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
home unless there is a wall around it as well. The line between country | :11:01. | :11:12. | |
and party is blurred, being the vessel by which a nation is made | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
whole. Whether it is Journey to the Mountain of Forever-- whether it is | :11:17. | :11:28. | |
Trump's claim to make America a great again, the Austrian party, the | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
France, each chose a campaign slogan setting themselves up as the saviour | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
of the nation, the culture and the land. And those not of the tribal | :11:36. | :11:45. | |
type, they were portrayed as proponents of progress, threats to | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
nation or betrayers to people. Their arguments were not fully examined or | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
tested. The message carriers were simply othered. It is easier to | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
undermine than engage. But what of nationalism on these shores? | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
the people at the Oval foundation here made it clear to me they booked | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
me before Theresa May called snap general election. In discussing the | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
rise of political nationalism, I want to talk about the situation | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
that I know best, the position that we face in Scotland with regards to | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
this issue. This question of identity and nationalism is one that | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
now dominate our public discourse. It has done not just my pal in | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
politics but will pretty much mind Thyer adult life. -- not just my | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
time in politics but pretty much my entire adult life. It did not start | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
with the current SMP. In the 1980s and 19 90s it was Scottish Labour | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
who carried the flag. Another Scot who's been invited here to give the | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
Orwell lecture, Robin Cook, declared that under Conservative Party | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
government to all intents and purposes Scotland is an occupied | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
country. That sentiment help lead to the birth of a devolved Scottish | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
parliament in 1999. And then the election of the Scottish National | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
Party to government in 2007 put the question of full independent front | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
and centre. In 2014, we famously held after referendum on Scottish | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
independence in which 55% of the population decided to remain within | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
the United Kingdom. Rather than saying the matter settled, we see | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
the issue is pushed back to the fore, with the SNP calling for a | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
second independence referendum as early as next year, before the net | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
kingdom leaves the European Union. If you had not heard much from | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
Scotland these past few years, apart from the question of the | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
Constitution, that is because very little else has had a hearing. And | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
because these questions remain dominant. When I see colleagues and | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
commentators down here wrestle with Brexit questions of, how | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
post-referendum politics challenges traditional party structure and | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
dominates voting intentions I like to think that we in Scotland got | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
there before you. I guess the question is how do we apply Orwell's | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
lessons about nationalism and pitches and two others in Scotland. | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
As someone who's been closely engaged in one side of the | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
constitutional battle these last years, a am aware of the need to | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
tread carefully. It would be easy to suggest that Scotland is divided | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
between nationalists in one hand and patriots on the other, to say that | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
there were 1.6 million nationalists in 2014 who demand we reject all | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
else for their own ideology, and on the other hand there were 2 million | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
patriots who voted no to independence and choose the right | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
way. But, I fear that would be people into exactly the nationalist | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
trap that Orwell warned about 70 years ago, where we falsely separate | :15:05. | :15:14. | |
people, like insects, into whether you're on the truth is far more | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
complex. As I've already set out, the nationalist instinct described | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
by Orwell can be applied to all sides of the political divide in | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
Scotland, including Mike Boone. They also believe that most people in | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
Scotland on both sides of that squad -- including my own. I did not agree | :15:34. | :15:42. | |
with the supporters of independence in 2014 and I still do not now. But, | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
if you believe that the vast majority of those that supported | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
independence did so because they believe it was the best thing for | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
Scotland and I will never condemn them for doing so. I will stand up | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
to any member of Matthews Goodbody who does. However, caveats aside, | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
the truth is the nationalist politics identified by Orwell. -- I | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
will stand up to any member of my party who does. Has become a key | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
part of political practice in Scotland. It is doomed pursued quite | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
deliberately said that many people who do not subscribe to the | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
so-called good side of the Altman feel voiceless and hopeless. Once | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
again, Orwell was the first. Examining the nationalist mindset in | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
1945, Orwell hit upon three common trends. Firstly, obsession, no | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
nationalists, he wrote, ever thinks all talks all rights of anything | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
else except the superiority of his own power union, he will show great | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
sensitiveness about such things at the corrects display of flags, the | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
order in which different countries and named. Secondly, he identified | :17:01. | :17:09. | |
instability, the nationalist fervour remains constant when the object of | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
his or her obsession may change. Thirdly, indifference to reality, | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
the nationalist will not just of the negative matters affecting his own | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
side, road Orwell, he has a remarkable capacity for not even | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
hearing about them in the first place. I have to say that the those | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
of us in Scotland, many of us, at least, it all sounds remarkably | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
familiar. Obsession, tick. We've not had an awful lot else from the SNP | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
in the last few years. Sensitivity about the size of headlines, tick. I | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
think no further than they SNP MP who claim national industry and | :17:54. | :18:03. | |
claimed BBC bias about the size of Scotland on the BBC weather map. | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
Instability, the further remaining constable of the object changes. | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
When Nicola Sturgeon join the SNP 1986, she was attracted to a party | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
whose policy was to withdraw from the European Community, she now | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
claims that leaving the EU is the reason that Scotland needs to | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
revisit independence. As we had yesterday, she will not promise to | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
take an independent Scotland straight back into the youth. Then | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
there is the point about superiority, and it all brings the | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
truth. In Scotland, political nationalism has introduced the idea | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
that one side of the constitutional divide can be the authentic voice of | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
the people of Scotland and only it has the right to be heard. The other | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
voices are, by their very nature, illegitimate and phoney. As Billy | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
Connolly said, I love Scotland but I hate the way the nationalists think | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
they own the place. To repeat, I do not suggest it is only the Scottish | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
National Party that is guilty of this trend, or political parties in | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
Scotland are elsewhere in the UK have been at fault at time, claiming | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
to have a monopoly on the national mood, as if there was one political | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
party which can claim the collapse of the nation. But I would suggest, | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
that the modern SNP has made this technique its own. If I can give you | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
a few examples in recent weeks that may not have made it down here. Back | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
in March, the Prime Minister set out her opposition to the second | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
referendum on independence. Responding, Alex Salmond declared | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
that no self-respecting Scot would accept a Westminster Prime Minister | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
undermining Scottish nationhood. The implication being that to agree with | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
the prime Minster on this issue would be to somehow concede that you | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
were a lesser type of Scott, of pig last week talking about the local | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
council elections Nicola Sturgeon said the following, Labour let | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
Scotland down by losing so many seats to the Tories. In other words, | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
Labour had not just built be attracted to the Electric, they had | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
actually shamed the nation by allowing the hated Tories to win | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
seats. Or, looking at it in another way, Scottish voters couldn't vote | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
for one of the main political parties without it being an Scottish | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
and someone else's fault. Or in a similar vein at the SNP party | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
conference, the economy minister summoned Terry summed up a debate on | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
Brexit with the following comment, this debate comes down to Scotland | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
that is the Tories in Scotland is going to win. As a member of | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
government who had just seen over half a million of his fellow | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
countrymen and women vote Conservative at a Scottish election, | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
is that half million not Scotland is well? I'm Scottish, in fact I've | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
never lived or worked outside the nation of my birth. A seed to no man | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
in backing blue in any round. Apparently I had to choose between | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
being Scottish and being conservative is according to Mr | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
Brown I cannot be both. What do you think about immigrants? Can we leave | :21:23. | :21:32. | |
the questions because there will be a question session after this. The | :21:33. | :21:42. | |
implication hangs in the air, we are other, we deserve to be shouted | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
down. The media has often assisted in the narrative. After the council | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
results one tabloid declared, the back, that the Tories were now | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
preparing to invade Scotland once more. -- one tabloid declared, they | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
are back. Think about that, people putting themselves forward at an | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
election to gain support of their neighbours in a democratic vote | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
because they want the local communities in which they live are | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
now being referred to as some sort of invading force. This technique | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
has, for a long time been effective and if people feel bullied and | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
hectored in supporting the SNP than I do not blame them. The Juncker | :22:21. | :22:30. | |
Plan works. When I became leader said Wood has change the culture of | :22:31. | :22:40. | |
the party. -- the othering works. I wanted to make the culture, saying I | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
believe in X and if you believe in X you are a Tory as well. The question | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
that is handing over others in this coming election is whether that is | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
about to change. I very much hope it will. After ten years of the SNP | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
government, there is an undoubted sense that people have rather had | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
enough. They include parents have begun to notice that while these | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
constitutional contortions of capital hugely occupied, the | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
children's education has been getting steadily worse and worse, | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
and that perhaps that is the greatest rebuke against nationalism. | :23:21. | :23:29. | |
It does not actually make the changes, any good government will do | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
that. My hope is that in Scotland decades long obsessed with the | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
constitution will come to an end and that we can start using the enormous | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
powers of Parliament to improve the actual fabric of our country. The | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
lesson that I hope is also heeded right across the UK, as well, as we | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
the EU. To conclude, the difference between nationalism and patriotism | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
is not a question of degree, all well is correct about that. | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
Nationalism is about power and its obsessive pursuit and the | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
dichotomised nation of population into the authentic and the | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
inauthentic. Nationalism, Orwell wrote, is power hunger, temperate by | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
self perception. Amen to that. Yet, here in the second decade of the | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
21st-century, despite his efforts nationalism is still confused with | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
patriotism and that is because too often the political movements that | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
would put fully insured that that's the case. Showing that we must | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
remain vigilant against nationalism's seductive simplicity | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
is and always be ready to embrace the complex and difficult and the | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
other. Like Albert Camus, I love my country too much to be a | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
nationalist. To Orwell, it is nationalism not patriotism that is | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
the last refuge of the scoundrel. Like all well I say we should not | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
confuse the two. Thank you APPLAUSE -- like George Orwell I say we | :24:56. | :25:10. | |
should not confuse the two. | :25:11. | :25:13. |