US Election Special Free Speech

This is Free Speech. Your chance to have your say about what matters to

you live on BBC Three. Free speech is the right to express

APPLAUSE Good evening. Welcome to Free

Speech. I'm Jake Humphrey. Tonight we are live in Colchester for our

American election special. That's not Colchester Vermont and not

Colchester Illinois, I am talking about whole Chester Essex --

Colchester Essex. Joining me tonight, you usually hear her

reading the news on the Breakfast Show, tonight she is up late just

for you, so please tonight, get in touch with Tina Daheley. Tina, it

is lovely to see you. Thank you for being here. I hope you have got

your alarm clock set for tomorrow morning. Tonight, we want you to

log on to Facebook, Twitter and BBC online. Here are our addresses

because it is time to make your voice heard on Free Speech. This is

the only TV show with the Power Bar. You can power it up on Twitter. All

you have to do is use the hashtag yes or no, followed by the first

name of one of our panellists. As there is a rather important

election happening on the other side of the Atlantic today, we have

two experts on all things American on our panel. She doesn't believe

that Mitt Romney should be running her country, Professor Sarah

Churchwell and Doctor Tim Stanley. We have for Labour, Doctor Tristram

Hunt, in the blue corner, he is young, bright and very much on the

right, it is Josephine Cook. He was -- Joe Cooke and Doctor Julian

Huppert. It is lovely to have you with us. Welcome to Free Speech. If

that wasn't enough talent for one evening, we will be hearing from

this man. I'm Jerry Springer. I will have a

message for you. In the meantime, enjoy Free Speech. All right, Jerry

Springer. Let's move on, after campaigning for two years and

spending get this, $6 billion, Obama and Romney are taking it to

the wire. Who do we think is going to win? Who thinks Obama? Mitt

Romney? Anyone for Mitt Romney? One lone man clapping at the back for

Mitt Romney. Well, whoever wins will be known as the leader of the

free world, but does it really matter to us in the UK? Well, we

asked a group of young American students to explain how important

this election is for us. I think that the United Kingdom

need look no further than Iraq to understand why this election is

important to them. Every foreign policy decision,

every war that the US enters, it will have a dramatic effect in the

UK and chances are you guys will get dragged along with us.

It can be summed up in three words, policy, preception and people.

Even though people here in the UK aren't affected by the care. The

Air Ablt, they will have to feel the the effects of what we do like

with the debt ceiling and the reSerbs just as we will --

recession just as we will feel what the UK does.

It feels that the UK relationship is vep symbolic and important --

very symbolic. Foreign policy, there will be a

difference rather than the drama of who said what and when.

Whether you are the Prime Minister or typical working class Brit, it

will change how your life functions. APPLAUSE

So they are the the Class of of 2012.

America's world domination seems to be fading. Will the outcome of this

presidential election matter to the global community? OK, the global

community including us in the UK. Sarah, you first of all? I would

say that Class of 2012 made a good good case. Our economies are Inter

twined. So that the ramifications of American economic policy which

is really being hotly contested in this election, they will have real

effects depending on whether Obama's policies are implemented or

Romney's policies on spending o about whether they are going to be

cutting Government programmes that employ people and social and

economic inequality and how that relates to social inequality and

how that impedes the economies. There are other questions about why

this election matters a lot as they also said there correctly, foreign

policy matters a lot. A lot of us saw Romney in the final debate say

that it was important that we need to think about Iran and Syria and

their alliance. It suggests he knows about as much about world

geography as Sarah Palin does which is not a lot. He says the greatest

threat that America faces is Russia. There is a real sense in which the

decisions that are made, will it be driven by diplomacy or or trying to

build allegiances, these are real questions that affect people

outside the borders of America let alone the domestic issues that

America is facing. Tim, you didn't laugh at Sarah

Palin joke. I can't see Russia from my house like Sarah Palin can, but

I can see when a president is getting things wrong. What I would

say on the importance of this election, it comes down to two

things. First of all, the desperate need for leadership when it comes

to tackling the problems of the Middle East. We have US embassies

being attacked. We have Iran trying to develop a bomb. We have Israel

uncertain of its relationship and its alliance with America, Barack

Obama has not visited Israel since becoming president. So we have a

great deal of tension overseas, but the most important issue is that of

debt and spending and Barack Obama US debt topped $16 trillion. That

has not resulted in a significant fall in unemployment. It is at 7.9%,

pretty much where it was when he was inaugurated four years ago. It

affects us directly. Why? Because our economies are

linked. As long as America is suffering and has bad leadership

and is heading toward the fiscal cliff of not being able to afford

what it does anymore, as long as we come closer to that, that does

threaten us in Britain too. Well, two opposing views. A shake

of the head from Sarah. People online have been empowered, they

understand the vital importance of an American election.

A viewer says she agrees the US is powerful. Stacey says the USA is so

powerful and the world should care, but they don't.

Do you think the USA is important? It is. The world does care, but it

is a brilliant question because what you suggested was that it is

not all about America anymore and in Beijing they will be choosing

the new leadership of China and that's going to be as important for

this country and the world over the text ten years as who enters the

White House. In 2018, the Chinese economy is is going to be bigger

than the American economy and companies in in Stoke-on-Trent is

going to be affected. Joe? He highlights the rise of

China. This is why America today is more important than ever before.

The world faces an uncertain future. There is a potential nuclear arms

race. We have troubles in the south-east Asian seas, but China is

demanding sovereignty of islands which the Japanese own. We need a

powerful America. An America which has subsidised the expenditure of

Europe. An America that kept peace in the international community and

an America that I want to be more powerful than ever before because

we really need them. We have a panel that thinks that

this is vital for Britain. Your thoughts? It clearly is vital. It

is worth saying, lots of countries matter. China matters, Brazil,

there are lots and and lots of countries that are beginning to

develop. There are some long-term things as well as the foreign

policy issues and whether you deal with problems by talking to people

and things like climate change. That is going to define what

happens to our future for the next 20, 30, 40 years. We have Obama who

is going to do something about it. You have Romney who runs the other

way. We can't get the world to try to solve a massive problem like

that with a US which is hugely dominant in that area and is doing

everything it can to deny climate change. It is essential for that

reason reason alone that Obama wins and not Romney.

APPLAUSE I would love to get your views on

how important this election is for each of you sitting in this room

tonight. The pou the Power Bar should have its first outing of the

evening. Get ready to find out what the audience at home make of you.

Democracy in action. Sarah you are connecting with the

audience and Tim, you have got catching up to do. I want to hear

from Rebecca. You spent a lot of time working out in the States

under the Bush administration? don't want to reiterate a lot of

the things that have been said. I would like issue with the fact that

Romney is running the other way from climate change. All our

economies are intertwined, so foreign policy, yes. This is an

economic issue too. They have different stances on where they

want to take the economy. I think on that issue alone, not saying the

others aren't important, that is going to, it could trigger a lot of

how we are looking at solving economic crisises in Europe. So

there is a lot of issues that this election matters.

You at the back? It is a spin off of what Tim said. He mentioned

there was an American Embassy attacked in Syria, but that was due

to a product of American Islamophobia, it was a video made

to offend Muslims. Do we feel this radical view, giving it a platform

is what the world needs given there is a conflict going on? Everybody

including those on the religious right denounced that video. That

video was not responsible for the attack in Libya. That was an act of

terror. And And was an indicator of how America is locked in a war of

terror. America done have to speak on behalf of its private citizens

when it does dumb things. America doesn't need to appoll yis for its

-- apologise for its citizens. Americans Say crazy stuff. It is

not the Government of the -- it is not the job of the Government to

apologise for it. Natasha, how do you think Obama has

done? Well, if you look at world surveys, they indicate that most of

the world want him to win and so he has a very different approach from

the Republicans in that he has tried to be conciliatory, open,

multi-lat ral and work with people and use soft power instead of using

force. If you look at that, the fact that the world seems to be

wanting him to win, and that he has four more years of experience

working in foreign policy, Mitt Romney has been a governor and has

had no foreign policy experience and that was evident in the debates.

He didn't seem to know what direction he wanted things to go.

It would make sense to go with someone who has been recognised and

won the Nobel Peace Prize and seems to have won the respect of the

international community. We have a chunk of Americans

sitting behind you. Well done for battling the A12 to be here this

evening! I would like to know why you guys

think at the start of the programme I mentioned Obama and it got a

cheer compared to one man clapping for Mitt Romney. Who would would

like to explain that to us? There is a celebrity factor with Obama. A

number of people don't know most of his policies. They know Obama the

figure and Obama the name and they are not responsive to all that he

has to offer. Julian, how do you feel knowing

that $6 billion has been spent on this campaign? Nchts it is a huge

amount of money. The thing that is a worry, I am not an expert on US

campaign law. There is more freedom to spend money to say things

negative about can candidates. It is a shame that you are trying to

hack other people off off rather than trying to show what you can do,

it is what the other person got There's a good comment here. Ellie

says how close the contest is between Obama and Romney. She says

"If a single American wastes their vote, I'll be insanely disappointed

in them." Talking about that, has it been a waste of money to spend

that $6 million to be so negative. Everything I've seen is negative.

Unquestionably. I've lived in this country for 13 years. I'm asked

repeatedly about when are Americans going to get their gun laws under

control? When will Americans sort out health care? When are they

going to sort out climate change? And the answer to all of those,

sounds like I'm evading the question, is when we get campaign

finance reform. Until they aren't under the thumb of special

interests and corporate lobbyists and there is a plutocracy that is

running things. As long as the corporate interests drive financial

regulation, drive gun law and everything that's going to help

them make a profit and one of the most extraordinary things that

happened and one of the other reasons this presidency matters a

lot to Americans and potentially - this election rather - is that

during the next four o eight -- to eight years we are looking at the

retirement of up to four Supreme Court justices. That's a chance,

it's a generational chance, not just a four-year election cycle

because the Supreme Court, the justices there sit for life. So

once you put somebody on the Supreme Court, they're there for a

generation, controlling policy. One of the things that happened in 2009

was a decision called citizens united that ruled that corporations

had the same rights as individuals to donate without worry about

conflict of interest and without having to disclose what their

donations had been. All of that, negative campaigning is simply a

symptom of a much greater problem about constant electioneering and

the way money is being allowed to drive the American political

process. I don't think it is in the interest of any American who loves

their country to sit by idly and watch that happen. It is destroying

the process. It's destroying democracy.

APPLAUSE Rebecca, how have you felt watching

the debate unfold from the other side of the Atlantic? From the

other side? You've been here? probably very similar. The Supreme

Court is a big issue and why the election matters. The negative

campaigning is, I think, much harder, it's hard to explain how

negative it is when you're here. If you're in the US and you're at a

point when they're -- where they're turning off the TVs. It's not one

party going negative versus the others. It's all negative, at the

local and national level. It's a symptom of a greater cause that

Americans are fed up with the political process. I don't know if

I'm getting to your question, but it's a bad, negative, just nasty

climate now, going back to the point Americans wasting their vote,

we will see lower turn out this year. People are staying home

saying, I'm going to the ballot box and I don't want this one or this

one soy might just sit this one outment I don't think that it's

fair that we label negative campaigning as always a bad thing.

For instance, Mitt Romney's record there have been many ads about the

capital. That's the record he's running on. The idea of negative

ads being bad because they point out of the past of a candidate, I

think is counterintuitive. Yeah but Barack Obama ran an add which

claimed that Mitt Romney had given a guy's wife cancer. It claimed

that woman's husband would have been sacked and then she fell ill

and died. The dismissal happened long after Mitt Romney left the

company, that kind of advertising is bad for left and right. We know

about Mitt Romney that famously he loves firing people. We know about

Mitt Romney that... APPLAUSE

Let me finish. You don't know the full context of the quote. What we

do know is that he set about ripping the heart out of industries

to get shareholder return for a few number of people. He practised a

model of capitalism which has been shown over the last four to five

years to be devastating. This is why it's a very important election

because you have two very different visions of the economy, opening up

before us. You have a Keynesian vision, an Obama vision, a stimulus

vision to help the middle class. With governor Romney you have a

classic, Bush-ear ya, Thatcherite- era, neo-liberal version of

economics. So it's very, very important that the votes are thot

wasted. -- are not wasted. You're right but there can be limits right.

It doesn't need to be an extreme either or that you can point out

inaccuracies in somebody's campaign without being able to just run amok

and make things up when you want to. We've crossed a line, surely.

classic inaccuracy is the "I like firing people quote. He said I like

firing people who provide bad services. I think he just likes

firing people. I've always felt that. This is the important point

about the choice in this race between capitalism and social

democracy. He doesn't want the public sector to be too big because

he wants to give consumers the power to say no. Let's not get

boged down in the detail. It's a good time to hear from

people at home. Most people at home agreeing with this, "Of course the

election will affect the UK. Everyone knows if the US sneezes

the UK catches a cold." Adam, also backs up a point made in

the audience before about celebrity. "Celebrity endorsement is much more

powerful. The terrifying thing being that an endorsement from

Bieber or Cyrus could ultimately decide the fate of the world. "We

shouldn't forget that Gary Barlow endorsed David Cameron.

Hang on. Interesting point from Samantha, OK, "Britain should be

allowed to vote for the President too. They took us to war. Their

actions affect us." Britain took itself to war quite happily.

As always your messages at home are getting the panel talking. Thank

you. If you want your point of view read out, you've got to make it

read out, you've got to make it We're going wrap that question up

there and move on. At 16 you can marry, pay taxes, join the Army,

but unless you live in Scotland, you can't vote. Now the 2014

referendum on Scottish independence will give 16 and 17-year-olds the

vote for the very first time. But that law isn't, as yet, being

extended to England. So let's meet Lydia. She's 17. She wants to vote.

This is her story. I'm 17 from Colchester. I live by

myself. I've been living on my own for about a year now. I'm directly

affected by politics. The council or Government have cut out free bus

passes. I have to walk an hour to college and an hour back. I think

you should be able to vote when you're 16. Politics affects

everyone. I have to buy food and the food costs affect me and the

rising electricity and gas and water bills affects me as well. It

does frustrate me that people who have the vote don't use it. There

are people who are younger who could have that vote. Excuse me,

could I ask you a few questions. How old swine flu 17. Would you

like to be able -- How old are you? 17. Would you like to vote? Yes. I

think I'm mature enough, It would be a good idea to put it at 16

because it would give people our age the opportunity to vote.

don't think we should because I think we're too young to make that

decision now. Voting at 18 because most people take an interest at

that point. 16-year-olds are not mature enough yet.

How old are you? 23. Do you vote? No. Why? I don't see the point.

old are you? 23. Do you vote? don't trust people in politics, soy

don't bother. That's a wasted vote. I'll have his if he's not using it.

Thank you for doing that for us. Our second question now from

Patricia. I'm 17 years old. I'd love to vote. So why can't I?

on then, Tim, you love politics, why can't the 1 and 17-year-olds of

this country be involved? reasons, first, because there are

many mature 17-year-olds, I'm sure you're one. There are many immature

21-year-olds who shouldn't be voting. Either way there's a higher

probability that someone under 18 isn't quite mature or ready enough

yet to vote. Now to that you will immediately say, but they can do so

many other things. But many of the things on that list I would say

they probably shouldn't be doing. Second reason... We pay taxes, this

is the thing. You probably shouldn't be paying tax then. My

second point is that I'm a small state guy. I'm a Libertarian kind

of guy. I think it's strange that there's this obsession with people

defining their humanity and dignity by being integrated into the state

and political process. I would say if you're under 18 and you want to

make a difference in the world, volunteer. Do missionary work. You

know sign up, do the cadets. There are so many great things that you

can do. You don't just have to define yourself and relationship to

other people through the process of voting. But then surely, as a young

person in society, I should be able to say who I want to be in power. I

mean, instead of volunteering, I'm sure that's a lovely thing to do.

The Lib Dems have been very keen on voting from 16. I think you should

be able to vote. We have just introduced a bill into the House of

Lords, to say that you should be able to vote from 16. It's

absolutely right. There are huge number of 16-year-olds who are

totally mature enough, probably more than most MPs, so that's an

easy threshold. The other issue is how we make sure other people do

vote. Far too many young people just don't vote. If you've seen the

west wing, politics is done by those who show up. If you don't

vote, politicians don't care as much about what you think. Votes at

16 and if we can get more young people, all you and your friends to

vote, that would be fantastic. is the thing, they've got to tell

us how. As this guy was saying, nobody knows what to do. I would

love to know, at school, tell me what to do. Tell me about politics.

Teach me the history of it. more we empower people the more

they'll want to vote. Exactly. is very much part of the debate. If

we allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote, which I totally agree with,

our generation has a voice and we will be heard. If we allow them at

16, we can integrate it with our civic classes. We can teach people

to love politics at the same time they get the vote rather than

waiting two years and lose it. on. I want to talk about what your

party has done over the last 13 years. Don't worry about that.

There's an interesting point there. Because we're going to teach voting

in civic classes. What if you have a very, very dynamic, charismatic

teacher of certain political views, he takes a class of 16 and 17-year-

olds, he tells them the truth about the UK independence party and he

takes you to the polling station and says, well I've shown you both

sides, but now you want to vote. We have to deal with this carefully.

But I would say that it's absolutely important that more and

more young people are involved in politics because politics at the

moment, is hammering young people. When it comes to withdrawal of

Educational Maintenance Allowance, the withdrawal of child benefit,

the raising of tuition fees politics is hammering the young

generation. We want young people involved in politics, passionately.

We can't just jump into this. There are safe guards issues. I think the

Scottish referendum is so interesting. Let's see how it goes.

You say we shouldn't jump into it, but it should eventually happen?

I'm here to be convinced. I don't know. The other issue is we have a

lot of 18-year-olds and 19-year- olds who can vote and why aren't

they vote sning There's lots of hands in the air. I want to hear

from you in a moment. First Tina from early comments. Before we get

to the audience, Max agrees with you Tim. Thank goodness. "18-year-

olds rarely have any idea about the differences between the parties,

adding 16 and 17-year-olds isn't going to improve this." Sarah,

what's the situation in the Usmani? In the US, 18 is the age -- in the

USA? In the US it's 18. You can vote at 18 and you can serve in the

armed forces but you can't drink until you're 21. I agree with you.

If you pay taxes, we fought a war because we believe in no taxation

without representation. You should not be taxed if you do not have a

voice in your representation. That is completely undemocratic.

Don't tax them. It's remarkable that you all were so immature at 16

and became so remarkably mature and 18 and 21. It's an arbitrary cut

off. My feeling is that what we should have is an age of majority.

We shaud gree what that is. At that point you are at the age of consent.

Should it be 16? I'm not particularly bothered about which

year it is but it should be consistent so you aren't caught in

the traps where you have obligations but not privileges.

have a feeling you might be popular on the power bar after that. Let's

see if there's an update from the Sarah, you are still connecting

with the audience at home. Both equally unpopular!

LAUGHTER You keep referring to the fact that

16-year-olds can pay tax. Well, when a ten-year-old spends his

pocket money in the local shop, he is contributing to VAT, are we

saying that a ten-year-old should be able to vote? Where are we

drawing the line? It is not about being able to pay tax at 16. We

allow them to make decisions, to specialise in their educational, we

allow them to get married. We allow them to join the Armed Forces. I

have I have been politically active since 15. I was able at 16 to have

my voice heard and I did at 18. At 18, that two year difference makes

a huge impact. It is not about forgetting, but you lose interest

in it. The first time you vote is the most important time you will

vote. If you start voting younger, you shall continue the trend. It is

a 15% difference between those who left school and voted. As we have

seen this evening, a lot of people are interested in politics and

ideas, but how that moves into political parties, how people join

political parties is a real challenge, not just here and

America or in Europe and going from feeling passionate about something

and being angry about something or finding something difficult to

joining a party, standing for election, all those things, that is

where the current generational gap is hitting us.

That's what these people are obsessed about, getting people to

join their political party. That's how change happens, Tim.

Let's hear the comments at home. Abigail says, "The majority of 16-

year-olds are too easily persuaded and they will be targeted by

politician with ridiculous policies." I am not sure who she is

referring to there. How important is it to educate

young people? I work with a lot of people who are 18 and don't know

how to vote. That's a big problem. We go into schools and get people

on the electoral register, we getting people 100 at a time on to

the electoral register who didn't know that's what you need to do

before you can think about turning up to a polling station.

Has anything been done until you get there?

Under current Government legislation, it will be more

difficult to get people on to the electoral registration. It is

scandalous what they are doing. If you are a young person, and if you

are moving around, it will be more difficult to cast your ballot.

The changes are something Labour introduced. The idea it is the head

of the of the house household who says, "Who is allowed to be able to

vote?" It should be individual registrations. It is right that we

should encourage people. They did it in Northern Ireland and one

million fell off the register. The the key thing is to get people

registered, not let some adult in the family decide when they are

able to vote and get registered. We need do more about students, that's

right. Well, if you want more students to

vote and do things, try not cutting everything from them. Because all

you do is infuriate them. APPLAUSE

You will only vote to get stuff? Is that how you see democracy. It is

about signing people up so they can get stuff.

You vote for yourself, for whatever you believe in the most, you don't

vote for anyone else, you vote for what is best for you. And your

values. Tim would have you believe thaw

vote to -- believe that you vote to get a tax credit.

APPLAUSE We take the view that people vote

for great ideals be they Conservative or Liberal Democrat or

Socialist as well as voting for what will get you a job, which will

look after your kids at school. These are all important things and

people begin to vote when these matter to them. You have to begin

voting early. Let's get into the audience.

Back to the point that young people are immature. People at 16 are

immature. How hold you? 17. What would you

like to see change snd. Just important things like taxes and

things being reduced and child benefit not being taken off.

I suppose it is one of the important points that young people

are experiencing education and experiencing public transport

because they need to use it or youth services, but they are not

being heard, but they are the people at the coalface? That's one

of the reasons why Labour introduced tuition fees after

promising not to. I was a student when they were put in and I

campaigned against them. Your Government put in �9,000 a year.

I know you vibg interrupting people -- you like like disrupting people.

You were advising Peter Mandelson who wanted to have them unlimited.

You should not mislead. Young people should be able to vote

because it will matter. Older Older people are more likely to vote and

are treated and benefits that go to older people... The point about

this Government, it is this extraordinary attack on young

people. Give them the vote. This is what you are you are voting for to

get these people to argue on you are behalf.

Labour messed up. All the soft courses.

How did it mess up? By letting more people go to university? There are

more photography graduates than photography jobs and certain jobs

would be better to be in apprenticeships. The English

baccalaureate is a good idea. But with with regards to politics it is

a journey you go on from 16 to 18 you change and develop. So waiting

until you are 18 is more important. You can get involved in the Youth

Parliament. You are frustrated, but you think you shouldn't get the

vote until you are 18? Well, I was involved with the Conservative

Party when I was 15. That's why you are keen on the

Government. You can raise aspiration, but not

give them soft courses. That 16 to 18 period is a period of growing.

You have had your hand up for a long time? When I was 16 I thought

I knew it all. I was in politics and I thought if I voted then that

would be like a really good thing and I knew what I was talking about,

but now I am 18, I didn't know anything and I was really into

politics and most people at most schools from my experience actually

don't really care. There is only a few that do and I was one of those

and looking back I really didn't know.

When you are 30, you will feel the same when you were 18. That's what

happens when we grow older and we learn.

It seems obvious that being inform and ready to vote is about your

life experiences and the influences you have and the people you have

talked to and the professors and the people in your lie and it seems

to me the sarriest the scare scariest thing about a 16 yearly

voting is that person would only have had one physics teacher that

influenced their views. We need to have these cuts offs. There was no

way we can test people's maturity and statistically 18-year-olds have

had more life experience. The key is people's voting

intentions will be from their parents. You need the maturity, you

need the capacity. You can line up the vote with

taxation which is what should be happening.

A final comment from the audience. I am 17 and I have got so much to

worry. I am in college at the moment. I have got to find a job to

pay for my petrol for my car because I have just passed my test.

I don't have the time to worry about voting. I have got too much

on my plate. Trisha, you start this, you should

end it. If you don't feel ready to vote at 16, who says you have to do

it. I file frustrate -- I feel frustrated that I can't, give us

the vote. What a way to end.

APPLAUSE Let's see if there are has been

changes to the Power Bar. No, with Sarah, it was your comments about

no taxation that got everybody going at home. It is a good one!

Julian is catching up. Let's get messages at home. Conflicting views.

LAUGHTER Very nice.

If you would would like to influence the Power Bar, jump on to

Twitter now. Use the hashtag followed by their first name

depending on whether you agree or disagree. It isn't scientific, but

make your voice heard on Free Speech. We would love to hear from

you. We have had a chat with our panel. It is time to move on to our

next topic and this is a huge issue on both sides of the Atlantic with

British and American politicians wading into the debate on abortion.

When we posted about this in our Facebook and Twitter pages we

received an unbelievable response and Rosalind Thomas up load this

message. It is a fact that human life begins

from conception and therefore, each and every abortion kills a tinely

and helpless human being. We don't need to put limits on abortion, we

need to abolish abortion. With we need to think about the last time

that legislation was put forward like this. He had good intentions,

but amendments were made which brought in abortion up to birth for

disabled children in this country. I think that if legislation like

this was put forward again there would be similar amendments made to

it which would sacrifice more children. We cannot take this risk.

Hannah has a question for us. Don't you think that people should

have the right to choose when they abort a baby? Well, let's go into

our audience. Lee. I think there are a couple of things here, for me

I would say that I don't think that there should be any limit on

abortion. The the 24 week one we have right now is wrong. MP Hunt's

suggestion to reduce that to 12 weeks or Maria Miller's suggestion

to reduce it to 20 weeks, I think all those are wrong. For me, I

think, abortion should be decriminalised and it should be

regulated under sort of law that sort of regulates medical procedure

in general and for two reasons. One, is a pragmatic one which is that,

you know, when a woman is faced with an unplanned pregnancy is it

better to force this woman to have a baby she doesn't want and to, you

know, or to give her some control over her reproductive life and

those things? I would go with the latter. Real life is messy and

unplanned pregnancies are a fact of of life. Everyone is not going to

agree. If you are religious, you will you will think abortion is

wrong. If you go with the 24 week rule, you think after that, it is

wrong. If you are a woman, you know, faced with a an with an unplanned

pregnancy, you will never see it as murder or killing. Whichever side

of the argument you are on, is to allow to decriminalise abortion

basically. Would you agree with that pro-life?

No, I wouldn't agree with that comment. I think actually it

undermines the speernings of a lot -- experience of a lot of women.

The reason it is a crisis is because this a huge decision faced

by people and what we should be look to go do as a society to open

up up options for women which gives them real positive alternatives,

emotional support and practical support and I would hope that, you

know, expending the options should reduce the number of people who

said they had an abortion because they had no other choice.

Tina, what has been said online? Elliot is coming at it from a man's

What are your opinions, gentlemen? Well, in Islam, the principles is

that abortion, where base -- we are pro-life pro-life however each and

every case is judged. Each case is judged in according to the

circumstance. We consider the rights of the foetus and the rights

of the mother. So my question here in this wation is - -- situation,

what factors do they judge in accord oobst to determine what age

should be cut off for abortion? Is it based on the mother or the state

It's not criminal. It is perfectly legal in this country. What about

the woman who has been sentenced to prison for a late-term oborgs. I'm

saying it should be a civic matter. Who is anyone to decide on my

behalf what I do with something that is basically about my autonomy

and a decision about my body. Who is anyone to force me to tell me I

should... Viewers shouldn't think that abortion is criminal. At the

moment in this country it's not the case, it's regulated under criminal

law. I think this is such a sensitive issue for obvious reasons.

There are are a couple of key points. The first is that it isn't

just a question of a woman's body but of the rest of her life because

she is then a mother. She then has responsibilities for that life. She

has economic, moral, psychological, emotional responsibilities. That's

the first point. The second point is that there are religious,

people's religious beliefs come into play, but, and to go to that

woman's point about an array of options, I would agree. I would

call an array of options choice. Within the context of choice

individuals are free to make decisions that are consistent with

their conscience, with their religious beliefs, with their own

family values w, their ideas. I think that the scare tactics of

suggesting that women are prif lusly going, oh, I'm pregnant,

that's a drag, I have a party next week. I think I'll have an

abortion." It is a crisis. But the real issue is surely, and people

characterise it as if it's a debate between abortions or no abortions

or early and late abortions, it is a debate between safe abortions and

unsafe. But the fact of the matter is...

APPLAUSE That women who do not wish to be

pregnant Have since time immemorial sought to rid themselves of

unwanted children. They will continue to do so. This is a matter

which disproportionately affects the poor. More affluent Willoughby

go to countries where it's legal and safe. Less affluent will find

themselves not just in danger but also with more children and we also

have economic policies which are supposed to be dissuading the poor

from having more children. None of this is consistent. You see the

number of arms up in the air. This is an important point to people. To

apologise if you have issues with your picture at home. We are having

a few technical problems. This is a huge issue in the US as well when

it comes to election time? It isn't, always been an issue but it's never

factored so centrally in a campaign as this year. We don't have to go

into the reasons but it is central right now, central to the theme to

the woman voting and to the males as well. It's putting both the

Democrats and Republicans at very uncomfortable positions for both of

them. The Republican party is went out to try to get very politically

to get part of the Catholic vote and come in on their side on

contraception issue. It brought up this part of the party that not all

of it is in tune with. I want to make sure we debunk the myth that

all Republicans are pro-life and all Democrats are pro-choice.

That's not in tune with reality. Consider it debunked. That's one

thing I see permeated over here. couple of comments from the

audience in a sec. A message from Kieran who says "I think abortion

should only be used if the baby is from a rape or the mother may die."

Let's hear from our audience members, fire away. On the idea

that it should only be if rape or if the mother's health is in danger,

it doesn't show that like a woman's situation isn't always consistent.

It may change. She might lose her job and she wouldn't physically be

able to take care of a kid. Are you pro-abortion? I am pro-choice.

Nobody's pro-abortion. In which week? I don't think there should be

a limit. Really? Interesting. think when it comes to abortion, I

think, I wouldn't like to see it criminal aislesed again. I think so

many women suffered when it was criminalised. However, I do think

it is too, the abortion limit is too high. 24 weeks, you know,

premature babies have survived. Where would you like to see it?

the mid-teens. Very, very few abortions between weeks 20 and 24.

Those are exceedingly rare and happen at the most difficult

circumstances. It's not, you know, you don't come to that decision

arbitrarily. That is through really tough, scientific and moral debate

which happens about every ten years in Parliament and in a national

discussion. So you know, we've all seen the pictures. We've all seen

the wonderful images of the child and that emotional response, but

don't think for a minute that 24 weeks is a common event. It's

exceedingly rare. We need to move on. We only have a couple of

minutes. Hillary Clinton said it best when she said it should be

safe, legal and rare. What we need is better sex relationship

education. We No Speak Americano need to stop unwanted pregnancies

rather than an obsession with termination. Sex education and on

tra ception are the best ways to stop abortion. The key underlying

question is when does human life become precious? Human life is

always precious. Well, if it's precious, then why is this

happening, but does human life become precious when we can survive

on our own as an unborn child? Is it precious when we can think or

when we can feel pain? That is the question. Where do you stand?

Christian answer is that the Bible says that we are all made in God's

image, so right from day one, our lives are precious. There is

something unique about being human in that we are made in God's

likeness in a way that horses or dogs or cows aren't. What's

happening in our country is actually whether it's 12 weeks or

24 weeks, it's a greet tragedy, it's a great crime because we are

killing hundreds of thousands of precious human lives. At the very

least it's why this debate is worth having. There probably is a

consensus even amongst pro-life and pro-choice people because those

terms are very flexible. There is a consensus against criminalisation.

But there is agreement for a need to do something to encourage a

culture of life, to do something which says to women, they have a

choice. How about giving them economic power, contraception, sex

education, then they will actually feel that motherhood is something

that they can face. We should remember what happens in Northern

Ireland. Northern Ireland unlike the rest of the UK does not have

legal termination was a few exceptions. It's astonishing that

women in Northern Ireland are forced to come to the mainland to

have terminations. It's disgraceful. It's astonishing that roughly

180,000 abortions are performed in this country... 191,000. Thank you.

Whether you think that's right or wrong there must be a debate about

that. It's such a potential tragedy, it's a crisis for an individual

woman. We can have the debate but you need decisions. And choices.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of scientific and public

opinion regards the current system as working OK. That's why the

Health Secretary is saying we should cut it to 12 weeks. It's a

terrifying intervention. Is 191,000 abortions working OK? No-one wants

to see that many abortions. 91% of abortions take place before the

12th week any way. We're talking about a very small amount. This is

all about contraception, empoirplt, sex education. -- empowerment. You

don't want to begin this assault on women's reproductive rights. Here,

here. I think that at the end of it all it's the woman's decision what

she wants to do with the rest of her life. It's a big commitment. I

don't think they should be solely controlled by politicians who may

have an antiquated view. To be honest, my opinion on abortion is

that it shouldn't be done at all. You're throwing a life away. It

could be something great when it's older. It's not the state's

position to legislate on what a woman can do with her body. It's up

to her. There you go. That's why Free Speech is so special. So many

comments. Some final messages? a very personal story from Yasmin,

who says "I lost my child at 22 weeks pregnant and after seeing his

perfect structure I would never think of having an abortion that

late on or ever. It is clear that restictions need to be made on the

availability of abortions. Every woman is entitled to their own

reasons for undergoing an abortion, but it cannot be a decision that be

taken lightly." Alys makes the point that, "If abortion was banned,

it wouldn't stop. It would become unsafe. If a woman wants an

abortion she will have one." That's all we have time for. Let's look at

the power bar to see what impression you've made on the

audience at home throughout the debate. Look who it is. What a

surprise, Sarah. APPLAUSE

You have the floor. My honour at having won? I'm an American, I like

winning. We're very competitive. So thank you very much.

That's all you'd like to say, thank you very much. I'd like to say I

hope Obama wins. I'd like to say that I hope...

CHEERING I'd like to say that I hope that

abortion remains safe and legal and a choice. I have lots of hopes.

That's enough. I think you've had your time. Thank

you. That's it. Thanks to our audience, our panel and to you at

home for sending in your comments. A round after plauz for the panel.

Join us in Newcastle, November 27. This man has the final word. Thank

you for watching tonight's debate on Free Speech. I hope it made you

think about the importance of the American election in your life,

living here in Great Britain. It may not or you may not care about

it, but it does matter. It does affect your life.

Here's why - America has a great influence in this world

economically, militarily, culturally and decision that's are

made in America and the strength of America, particularly economically