Are We Getting More Racist? Free Speech


Are We Getting More Racist?

Live from Sunderland, a panel of politicians and local activists discuss racism and Islamophobia in Britain in the light of events in Woolwich, where Lee Rigby was murdered.


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we want to hear your views on the issues that you care about. Right

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is so patronising. There is a lot going on.

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Edwards, and we are live in Rainton Meadows Arena in Sunderland tonight.

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They are here to tell us what they think, and we want to hear what you

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think at home. Tell Tina Daheley. Good evening. Get your laptops,

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tablets and phones ready now and get online with Facebook, Twitter and

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the BBC. I will be launching each of our

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questions on social media at the same time they are live on location,

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and I will bring your answers and comments straight to the heart of

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the debate. One easy way to get your voice heard is via the Power Bar,

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which responds in real-time to what you think of the panel's point of

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view. Use hashtag yes or hashtag no followed by the first name of the

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panellist every time you or disagree. Our panel's first job is

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to tell us why they are here. Akala, I am a hip-hop artist and

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educator. I am here to show you that UKIP has a dynamic group of people

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from all sorts of backgrounds. name is Grainne McGuire, I am a

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stand-up comedian and I am in -- interested in people 's opinions.

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am Sarah Khan, I am a television presenter who also runs their own

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business, and I am here to share your opinions.

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Let's get going. As we went to act on our last show, the shocking news

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of the death of Drummer Lee Rigby was just breaking. There has been a

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huge nationwide response to the killing since then, including a

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fivefold rise in alleged anti-Muslim hate crimes. The English Defence

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League, the EDL, held its first and biggest protest march just down the

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road from here. What has the response been like on social media?

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Debate sparked by the EDL marchers was the biggest ever on our Facebook

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and Twitter pages, and the room or -- memorial page RIP Woolwich

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Soldier has attracted more than 1.5 million hits. I went to Woolwich to

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There are hundreds of bouquets of flowers, messages, flags. RIP Lee,

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such a waste of a life. Our thoughts are with your son and family. There

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are football shirts as well. With love from Charlton. Just the sheer

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volume of tributes show how much this has affected people in the

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local community. How did you feel? Shocked. I would have thought any

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place but Woolwich. I couldn't believe it actually happened, to see

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it in front of your eyes. I have showed my respect is on Facebook.

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you think that people 's views have been affected because of Facebook

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and Twitter? I think that people 's comments can influence others.

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is the atmosphere like? If you walked down here, it was completely

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empty. It is like tumbleweed. Different races used to come

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together, now it seems like everybody is minding their own

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business. We are not going to talk about the

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actual killing of Lee Rigby or those arrested because of legal

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proceedings, we will focus on the wider issues of racism and Islam

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phobia in this country. Nicola has a question. Is Britain becoming more

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racist? Is Britain becoming more racist? This debate will be quick,

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we want to keep this moving, we will put 30 seconds on the clock, give us

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a taste of what you think. I think the question is an

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oversimplification of a problem. We have to deal with the reasons why

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racism exist, there are political and economic religious derived from

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being the correct race. We have to put things in that correct history

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and, to this very day, if you are nonwhite in this country you are

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more likely to be arrested, to die suspiciously in police custody, for

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your children to be expelled from school, even allowing for

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socio-economic factors. When we deal with racism we do not focus on it

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being part of the political culture. I don't think it is actually rising

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as fast as people think. My grandmother was Irish, my

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grandfather was black. They came to be mated kingdom and we had signs

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that said, no Blacks, no Irish, no dogs. That circumstance does not

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occur today in the United Kingdom. When I was a young boy, I suffered a

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form of racism. I joke that I am more like Michael Jackson and I am

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fading, but when I look at my wonderful seven-week-old daughter, I

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can see her lovely colour. But we are accepted, we are accepting

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people of different races, colours and creeds in this country. But what

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we are seeing over the past few weeks is a division which is caused

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by many of the reasons you have identified, the socio-economic Rob

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is that many groups in society, be they white or Asian, black or

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otherwise. Unless we address those, we will not be able to deal with the

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underlying reason that people are drawn to parties and groups that

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think racism is the answer. A couple of quick responses from the

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audience? My name is Daniel Johnson, I am from a diversity centre in

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Newcastle. I am a Muslim and I am horrified to see a Islamophobia, as

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well as other forms of racism, rising in recent years. One reason

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is foolish people like Anjem Choudary and his cronies, and

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another is people like Tommy Robinson and his cronies. Do the

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panel think it would be a good idea to take Tommy Robinson and Anjem

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Choudary and put them on an island and bonnet with anthrax? That is

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quite strongly put, but I get the idea. Do we need to clamp down on

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people believe to be extremists? This lady in the front row.

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opinion is that we are not getting more racist, after studying Of Mice

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And Men, in the 1930s, black people were put separately, but that would

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not be acceptable now. But we are not honest about the reasons of

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changing. In the United States of America,

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black people had to shed their blood in the streets to be recognised

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legally as humans. People did not have a grand awakening, it was real

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political campaigning. We have to deal with the fact that the

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mythology of innate white superiority -- superiority is a key

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part of Britain, America and other countries' political culture. I am

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not saying about to be horrible, it is a fact. Tina, what are people

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saying? Lots of messages coming in about Woolwich, lots of people

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talked about how social media in the hands of the social media

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exist, it only takes certain instances to bring them out.

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At the moment, because of the current economic climate, lots of

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people are suffering and really hurting from the cuts. Lots of

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people are looking for somebody to blame. Big things like capitalism or

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the banks, very vague things. It is much easier to blame the person down

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the road who wears different clothes than you or eats different food. I

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think lots of parties at the moment are exploiting the anger and

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frustration that lots of working-class people have, and I

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think they are exacerbating the problem. Working-class, vulnerable

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people are being pitted against each other and looking for somebody even

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lower down and more vulnerable than men to blame for things happening in

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our life. APPLAUSE

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Whatever your experiences told you, Saira? My parents came to this

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country in 1965, I was brought up in the 70s, they were the first mass

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immigration to this country. I grew up with people taking the mickey out

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of black people, Irish people, people like myself on television

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programmes broadcast on the BBC, Mind Your Language, Love Your

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Neighbour. We are 30 years in advance of Europe in terms of race

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relations in this country. I think the obvious racist things that we

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saw in the 70s are gone, but what is more dangerous is we are now looking

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at subtle racism. We are looking at institutionalise racism, in this

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country some people are scared to put down, my name is Muhammad

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Khan-macro, in case they are discriminated against. We have seen

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racist economic policies like housing and education. It is not so

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obvious but it is very subtle. I will say one thing, it is very

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obvious. Racism is spread because of ignorance. I believe, in this

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country, multiculturalism was great for the 60s, 70s and 80s, but we

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have to move away from cultures in this country being allowed to just

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get on with it and say we do our own thing. We need to talk about

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integration. I was brought up on a completely white council estate. I

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am the person I am because of my upbringing on that estate. We did

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not suffer a lot of abuse and racism because we invited people to our

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house. They used to say, why does your mum pray five times a day? I

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told them. I went to their house and said, your mate is pregnant at 16,

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what do you think? You need these discussions. It works on both sides.

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It is not white against black, black against white or whatever, but there

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is a lot of ignorance. One example, I have got mates who go to the same

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curry house for the last ten years, a Bangladeshi curry house in London.

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I said to my mate, do you know how to say hello in Bengali? You have

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been enjoying the food, we live in multicultural Britain and you don't

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know how to say hello? Once he knew how to say hello, he was getting

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free pop the food, we live in multicultural Britain and you don't

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know how to say hello? Once he knew how to say hello, he was getting

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free popper dons every week. It just shows, it just takes that one little

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bit of showing that you care and have researched or done homework.

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And free food is a great incentive! We have heard from the panel, so

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Tina, you know what to do? Instant judgment, this is what

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people at home think of what you organising protests around the

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country. The first was here in the north-east, and police estimated

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that around 1500 took part. Protest will -- protesters were heard

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shouting, who has streets, our streets? Tommy Robinson, the leader

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of the EDL, your supporters were heard shouting racist abuse, how do

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you explain that? What racist abuse? I can't say it at this time on

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television. There is no racial tension in the town that I come

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from. When David Cameron says that multiculturalism has failed,

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seekers, Hinduism, they have not failed, is lamb has failed. If I am

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against Scientology, will you call me a racist? I oppose the Islamic

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ideology, that does not make me racist. We have read the quotes in

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the press. You just said 1500 people, there were 7000. More people

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chanting? More people in the demonstration. When you talk about

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Islamophobia, of course there is Islamophobia, because our police

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force were too scared to tackle grooming and rape in our youth

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because of fear of being called racist. That is Islamophobia. A

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phobia is an irrational fear. It is natural to fear female genital new

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to Laois and of 2000 Muslim British girls every year, terrorism, those

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six Muslims sentenced to 20 years each because of plans to blow up the

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English Defence League league due to the blasphemy law within the Koran.

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There is a link to these things, the same with the Muslim grooming. You

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have to look for the issue, they are all Muslim. I get confused when you

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say is lamb, Islamist and Muslim, they are different things. I am from

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Luton town, I know so many Muslims. If you take these people 's careers

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away, they would not be there. I am a volunteer. What has happened, from

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speaking up the way I have done, it has destroyed my life, my wife's

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life, I have contents A* constant death threats, I have to where a

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bullet-proof vest. Well, stop being a racist and a bigot! Please explain

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one thing I have ever said... born in your country, I don't spout

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rubbish like you do. Please explain, if you talk against Islam, please

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explain what I said that was racist? Please explain. I'll tell you what

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is racist... Please explain. have taken a community with hundreds

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of thousands of members, you have made a tiny minority, you have said

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they are all like that. That's the slightly racist party. You are

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against all Muslims. Yes, you are. to call us racists or extremist...

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What have I said that was racist? heard you on Radio 4 saying that you

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are a peaceful movement and not violent. Have you looked at your

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own... You still haven't explained what I said that was racist.

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have been convicted of thuggery and you are a football hooligan. Please

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explain what you have said that is racist. You have just cited loads of

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things relating to Islam and talking about Islamist 's, but what about

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all of the Muslim people killed by white people? There is not a problem

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in this country against Islam. are you focusing on certain

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incidents? EU rather than listening to the point, you just want to shout

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racist. Because you are. Let her speak. What have I said that is

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racist? You are a racist bigot. You do not represent the views of other

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people in this country at all. Nothing. You have got no substance

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to your argument. You are not even backing it up. What happened to Lee

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Rigby? What happened with the Muslim grooming gangs? Let some body else

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speak for a moment. Of course, there are no paedophiles that are white.

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You spoke, let me speak. This is the issue. As much as I agree with what

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is being said about this man and his organisation, we focus on the fringe

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gets, rather than dealing with the central issue in the political

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system. I can't count how many times I have read the Daily Mail and other

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papers, Pakistani man does... When Jimmy Savile is convicted, is his

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religious beliefs or ethnicity put forward as the reason for him

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committing these offences? They fan the flames of bigotry and they act

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shocked. I want you to express what I have said that is racist. Baghdad

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was the intellectual centre of science. Nobody blames Islam for

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that. Negative people that happen to be Muslim, it is your religion. If

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you pioneer mathematics, if you introduce copies, lemons, algebra,

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if that is not because you are Muslim. You organised the

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counterprotest? We I have heard of double vision, I've never heard of

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triple vision. There were not 7000 EDL folks in Newcastle. You have had

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your say. You had 1500. You have had your say. We had a peaceful

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protest, unlike you EDL drunks. You have said your bit. You don't like

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it when people do it to you. You had to have people shipped in from other

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places in the country, to Newcastle, to have a party. We had

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local people, celebrating diversity. That is what we thrive on.

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celebrate diversity. You are the biggest fascist. You are. You are

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Islamophobic. You hate Muslims. don't come at all. Your EDL

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organisation is just a platform for your ego. Do you think I enjoy being

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the leader of the English Defence League? You wrote a letter to the

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City Council against me saying I have extremist links. You said that.

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I didn't. I have got the letter.I didn't write a letter. Tommy, calm.

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On top of that, your EDL folks have threatened me, my life and my

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family. On Twitter, Facebook, have you condemned them? This gentleman.

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Regardless of Mr Robinson's views, we are delighted he took the

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opportunity to come here and show how unrepresentative and out of

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for the audience here, but working class people back home... We are

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working class! When you set their... Then why don't you stand

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and become a little party? People that oppose Islamist agenda, they

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vote for Labour, Conservatives, a variety of people. Islam is not

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integrating, sects of Islam are spreading like wildfire. What are

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you doing to combat them? condemned... Condemned is not good

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enough for me. We have condemned and we have been actively working in

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Newcastle and the north-east. We are actively working with different

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communities. What have you done to work with different communities?

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work with the seat community, the Jewish community. If it is the

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fascist, the right-wing, muscle groups, we condemn them all. This

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lady, here. If you look at the country as a whole, we talk about

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whether the country is getting more racist, I don't think it is. But if

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you cut the cases where people are playing a role in the community,

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getting involved in society, the vast majority of people do not care

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what race people are. If people are integrating, working together, then

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they cooperate. It is having protests, in either direction, is

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that helping anyone to reach that the broader issue. Where is

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Isabella? I think people are becoming racist because of their own

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social and economic problems. They are just pointing the finger, as you

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were saying earlier, choosing something to blame. I am half

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Polish, and... Sorry? I think it's offensive when people go on about

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Eastern Europe in is taking jobs. You might not think that is racism,

:23:43.:23:49.

because you might not be able to tell I am Polish, but immigration

:23:49.:23:52.

has had a major impact. I think that we need to look at the broader

:23:52.:23:57.

issues as to why people are becoming racist. How do we tackle those

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issues? Personally, I think that racism is becoming more of a matter

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of upbringing. Just like the gentleman over there, if everybody

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was going to have the same frame of mind as you, the whole country was

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going to be racist, people bring up their children, saying that when

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people move into this country from different countries, they steal our

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jobs, they steal our money, they don't because they are trying to

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make the country more diverse. Can I speak? I'm not against

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immigration... Everybody, nobody has told me why I am extremist and

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racist. Anyone with a different opinion... It is a matter of

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upbringing. I had a perfect upbringing, I had to businesses,

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prior to Danish defence league. It's not to do with poverty lines, it is

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serious issues. As soon as you talk about it, everybody says you are

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racist. Your agenda today, my question is, can we say what the

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problem is, about when people see a woman in a scarf, it is about an

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economic issue? You had your agenda, I don't know if you have finished it

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yet, I have been here for two years, nobly sits near me because I'm

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wearing a scarf. You explain to me, what you can answer for them?

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can't just keep calling you racist. You can't keep saying racist without

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giving me an explanation. At your rally in Newcastle, you stood next

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to the organiser while he was chanting, send those... I can't say

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it, home. Complete lie, again. It's an edited version. Who said it?

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Every time somebody has their arm in the air, you say it is a Nazi

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salute. You're generalising a whole race of people. Only certain sects.

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When we deal with racism, rather than dealing with the structural

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reality, talking about people being racist because they are not happy

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with their life, like only working class people are racist. Racism was

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not started by the working class, it was from the top down, it was

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lamented as part of policy. When there were slave catchers in the

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streets, people had more allies in working-class areas of London, than

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they did from the upper-class people trying to send them back to the

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Caribbean. The bigger problems are structural racism. It is all of the

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frustrations, breeding this kind of nonsense, that will not be excavated

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so much. We focus on problems like this. A gentleman called Christopher

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Alder, a white British soldier, he died in police custody. You can see

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him on the floor, with police officers around him, making monkey

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noises over his dead body, you have the issue? We have to tackle the

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issue with education in school and university to encourage people to

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amalgamate. We have to deal with some of the issues that Mr Robinson

:27:41.:27:45.

raised. It is clear that The Met police, they have apologised, they

:27:45.:27:48.

have not dealt with issues of grooming and things like that

:27:48.:27:51.

because there was a fear. Thankfully that is now being dealt with.

:27:51.:27:55.

Organisations such as your own half to continue the work that you are

:27:55.:27:58.

doing to tackle those that are also racist within the Islamic community

:27:58.:28:03.

against others. You are tackling that, extremism, and thankfully we

:28:03.:28:07.

are doing that. Altogether, we have to look at the extremism on both

:28:07.:28:11.

sides and bring us together. We are all people. We are not mixed race,

:28:11.:28:14.

we are not a white race, we are part of the human race. That is the most

:28:15.:28:22.

important thing we should be concerned about. Are people getting

:28:22.:28:29.

het up online? A huge reaction online. Jamie says that Britain is

:28:29.:28:31.

not becoming more racist. The problem is increased airtime given

:28:32.:28:41.
:28:42.:28:43.

to this view. That is picking up on your point, Akala. More racists are

:28:43.:28:47.

feeling justified because of recent events. What people think is racist

:28:47.:28:51.

and what it is is wide apart. Islam is not a religion, it's a race, I

:28:51.:28:57.

don't know if I got that the wrong way round. The main problem is that

:28:57.:29:07.
:29:07.:29:21.

if the economy is worse it causes scrutiny. Cigarette manufacturers

:29:21.:29:25.

have been fighting against the threat of plain packaging, and the

:29:25.:29:29.

ideas recently drawn up by the government. UKIP has announced plans

:29:29.:29:35.

to allow smoking in if it was elected. And at lunchtime today it

:29:35.:29:38.

was announced that electronic cigarettes will be classed as

:29:38.:29:43.

medicine, so people will need a prescription to get them. We have a

:29:43.:29:47.

question from Sarah. Is the freedom of people to smoke more important

:29:47.:29:54.

than the health of those who choose not to? Steven?

:29:54.:29:57.

I think there is an important question about liberty and the

:29:57.:30:03.

freedom of ourselves to be able to do for our own body and our own

:30:03.:30:09.

being and make those choices ourselves. There are very clear

:30:09.:30:13.

questions in UKIP's policies on health at pub landlords should be

:30:13.:30:17.

able to choose themselves if they allow smoking. You could have a Pope

:30:17.:30:20.

that is totally smoking, you could have one that would like a mixture

:30:20.:30:25.

or you could have one which would not want it whatsoever. It will be

:30:25.:30:28.

driven by the economics of those pubs and the decisions of those

:30:28.:30:35.

people. It is a liberty issue. I think the government has a very

:30:35.:30:40.

important role to play here. If it wasn't for public announcements and

:30:40.:30:43.

information about the dangers of smoking, the dangers of smoking if

:30:43.:30:48.

you are pregnant, the diseases relating to smoking, we would not

:30:48.:30:53.

know about it. Because, I can tell you, the cigarette companies would

:30:53.:30:57.

hide that information from us. I think this whole thing about so many

:30:57.:31:02.

pubs have closed because of the smoking ban, it is nonsense. They

:31:02.:31:05.

closed because they weren't commercially viable, that is pretty

:31:05.:31:13.

obvious. I actually believe that the government has got a real reason to

:31:13.:31:19.

inform people about smoking. I personally have no members of my

:31:19.:31:27.

family who smoke and who have had a reason diseases as a result of

:31:27.:31:31.

smoking, like heart bypasses and cancer. For me, I think the

:31:31.:31:35.

government has a very important role to play in educating about the

:31:35.:31:39.

dangers of smoking, and I believe paid -- plain packaging, which is

:31:39.:31:45.

something the government has talked about, should be lamented. Are their

:31:46.:31:51.

differing views on social media? Free Speech and BBC are you one, we

:31:51.:31:57.

have been debating e-cigarettes. Regulating the sale of e-cigarettes

:31:57.:32:03.

and turning them into a medicinal product is ridiculous, it is proper

:32:03.:32:06.

Job health and common-sense. Simon says, the government needs to

:32:06.:32:10.

tax these, because of all the money they are losing from all of the

:32:10.:32:17.

people who have stopped smoking. A vicious circle. Grainne, is the

:32:17.:32:21.

freedom of people to smoke, to make the choice to smoke, more important

:32:21.:32:24.

than the health of those who choose not to?

:32:24.:32:28.

I feel like it is a spurious argument. What do you define as

:32:28.:32:35.

freedom? The cigarette industry is a �1 billion industry. It really

:32:36.:32:40.

targets young people. Two thirds of people started smoking before they

:32:40.:32:48.

are 18. 50% of people who start smoking will die as a result of

:32:48.:32:55.

smoking. I think there should be something to defend people. It costs

:32:55.:33:01.

the NHS millions every year. I think whatever we can to protect people

:33:01.:33:11.

from a very nasty destructive habit is good. Akala, would you agree?

:33:11.:33:15.

am a non-smoker, I am completely biased and over the moon that people

:33:15.:33:19.

do not smoke in public spaces any more, I was sick of breathing in

:33:19.:33:23.

tar, especially when I was with young children. I don't have any

:33:23.:33:28.

desire to see the smoking ban lifted in any way whatsoever.

:33:28.:33:32.

There is a gentleman here who has smoked more since the smoking ban.

:33:32.:33:40.

Why? I think the ban made it more of the social activity outside of bars.

:33:40.:33:44.

I think it is questionable the impact that it has had on smoking

:33:44.:33:49.

rates, for me, as they say, I didn't smoke at all before the ban. The

:33:49.:33:54.

impact on me was that I subsequently started smoking quite frequently,

:33:54.:33:59.

not just socially, but in my day to day life. That is my choice, but the

:33:59.:34:03.

impact of the ban in bars is questionable. It is all very well to

:34:03.:34:07.

protect non-smokers by making it illegal in public places, but I

:34:07.:34:14.

think we have to look at the impact it has on the way that people smoke.

:34:14.:34:17.

It is also protecting children. If you are a parent and you are smoking

:34:17.:34:22.

in the house and public places, you are causing home -- harm to children

:34:22.:34:28.

and that has to be taken seriously. But we're not suggesting that the

:34:28.:34:31.

government should start in loading itself and putting itself in people

:34:31.:34:37.

's homes? It is important for the government to advise people on the

:34:37.:34:41.

dangers. I don't disagree with the education, the fact that we have to

:34:41.:34:47.

educate people on the harm from smoking. I have never smoked, I do

:34:47.:34:52.

not personally like it. I worked in jobs where I had to go home and wash

:34:52.:34:56.

because of smokers. But I do not want to stop people from having the

:34:56.:35:02.

opportunity for smoking, albeit that I might think it is a bad choice.

:35:02.:35:08.

The government should keep its hands out of our pockets. Who smokes?

:35:08.:35:15.

Former smokers? A few ex-smokers. Smokers, how have you felt?

:35:15.:35:23.

Marginalised? Personally, I'm fed up of these new advert somethings that

:35:23.:35:27.

are giving smokers a bad name, for example the one when the guy is

:35:27.:35:32.

smoking in the car. Smoking is legal, we have a right to be able to

:35:32.:35:37.

smoke. Are the government going to do the same in terms of alcohol?

:35:37.:35:43.

Alcohol costs the NHS billions every year, fast-food, obesity, will the

:35:43.:35:45.

government imposed sanctions on those as they currently do with

:35:45.:35:51.

smoking? That people generally don't spit alcohol in other people 's

:35:51.:36:01.
:36:01.:36:01.

faces. Wii but if I smoke in my own home or car... That is reasonable. I

:36:01.:36:05.

am not disputing that there is an issue with alcoholism. When I smoke

:36:05.:36:11.

a cigarette, I see diseased lungs on the back of the packet. I don't go

:36:11.:36:15.

to the supermarket, pick up a can of lager and see a diseased liver.

:36:15.:36:22.

is a valid point. Anyone else? What you have to remember is the

:36:23.:36:26.

advert showing the guy smoking in the car as well, there is a child in

:36:26.:36:31.

the car. My dad smokes, my mum has quit but she still smokes

:36:31.:36:34.

occasionally. There is nothing I hate more than being in a car and

:36:34.:36:38.

not being able to escape the cigarette smoke. It is fine if you

:36:38.:36:41.

are by yourself, but should you be inflicting about another people? I

:36:41.:36:51.

think that is the issue. Wipe the children in danger? If

:36:51.:36:58.

children are run smoking, they will turn to smoking. I wouldn't, I don't

:36:58.:37:01.

think any sensible parent would. you are having smoking in pubs,

:37:01.:37:06.

there will be children in there. Parents do not have to take them in

:37:06.:37:11.

there. Bee people take them for pub lunches, it is not to watch them

:37:11.:37:15.

drink. If you are eating your dinner and the person next to you is

:37:15.:37:22.

smoking... Would you introduce smoking on aeroplanes? Absolutely

:37:22.:37:25.

not. There are different circumstances, on an aeroplane you

:37:25.:37:33.

have no choice. What about the person working in the bar, what

:37:33.:37:40.

choice do they have? If the landlords have made it explicitly

:37:40.:37:45.

clear that this is a smoking pub, completely, or on this site, then I

:37:45.:37:49.

would make a clear, rational choice not to go in there with my

:37:50.:37:57.

children. What if you work in the bar? What is your choice? You could

:37:57.:38:02.

choose not to work. So you are discriminating against people?

:38:02.:38:05.

can work in a different pub which does not have smoking. You are

:38:06.:38:10.

complaining about an employment, people will lose their jobs because

:38:10.:38:14.

he wants to smoke? Reign there are great advantages, it simply wants to

:38:14.:38:19.

work in a smoking pub than they might get paid higher for doing so.

:38:19.:38:28.

Reign people do so for going into oil rigs. It is about allowing

:38:28.:38:33.

people to make choices. These cigarette companies around the world

:38:33.:38:39.

take advantage of people. They take advantage through packaging,

:38:39.:38:44.

colours, adverts, marketing. People are seduced by it. The government

:38:44.:38:47.

need to take a stance. The money the government gets in this country goes

:38:47.:38:57.

against fighting diseases related to smoking. This is a serious problem.

:38:57.:39:02.

It is about rights and stuff, but most sensible people will say, yes,

:39:02.:39:05.

what the government is doing is correct and we need to censor and

:39:05.:39:09.

control it and protect people, in form and about the dangers of

:39:09.:39:16.

smoking. Let's get a...There is a big thing about banning it in pubs,

:39:17.:39:20.

but everybody in this country has accepted it. Comments from the

:39:20.:39:27.

audience. It is UKIP policy now, is it, to say

:39:27.:39:31.

that people who do not smoke are banned from pubs by putting signs up

:39:31.:39:37.

saying it is a smoking pub and you could die by going in there?

:39:37.:39:40.

simply said that the Pope could put up a sign saying that there is

:39:40.:39:44.

smoking in there, then we have a choice of whether we want to go in.

:39:44.:39:49.

I still might into it, because my friends are in there. It is about

:39:50.:39:54.

personal freedom and choice. There is no way that we will force you to

:39:54.:39:59.

go into a smoking pub if you do not want to, or vice versa. The current

:39:59.:40:04.

system is working. I don't think you can talk about

:40:04.:40:08.

personal freedom if you are segregating into non-smoking and

:40:08.:40:12.

smoking, all of my friends smoke, so if they want to go to a smoking pub

:40:12.:40:18.

I would have to sit outside because I can't hack smoking, I preferred to

:40:18.:40:21.

breathe oxygen, as opposed to cigarette smoke. I would have to

:40:21.:40:25.

stand outside while they went in and had a good time and, to be quite

:40:25.:40:31.

honest, I'd like to look like I had friends, for starters! Why choosing

:40:31.:40:34.

smoking pubs and the non-smoking pubs, if that was my local pub, I

:40:35.:40:39.

would have nowhere to go because I local pub would decide to be a

:40:39.:40:43.

smoking pub. I don't feel that I should have to be limited because of

:40:43.:40:46.

somebody else pulls-macro life choice which is damaging to

:40:46.:40:52.

everybody else around them. What are people saying online?

:40:52.:40:55.

Surely smoking is a choice and you should be free to choose where you

:40:55.:41:01.

smoke, but you should be educated on Ellen says continuing to regulate

:41:01.:41:05.

the smoking industry is creating a black market like we have seen with

:41:05.:41:10.

drugs. Plain packaging won't make a

:41:10.:41:20.
:41:20.:41:23.

difference to people wanting to the debate on racism, Akala is still

:41:23.:41:33.
:41:33.:41:53.

followed by the panellist's first Speech, tweet the Power Bar.

:41:54.:41:57.

Next up, work experience time again, students across the entry looking

:41:57.:42:02.

for internships. What is the best way to get a job Dutch work

:42:02.:42:05.

experience, and as -- apprenticeship, set up your own

:42:05.:42:12.

business, or work for your dad, and James Caan's daughter. Lots of

:42:12.:42:17.

employers will not comply people without work experience. These

:42:18.:42:23.

people have taken different routes. I believe work experience and

:42:23.:42:28.

volunteering give you the advantage that someone else might not have. I

:42:28.:42:32.

am currently volunteering at the Stadium of Light. I have been for

:42:32.:42:36.

about ten to 12 months. I help people similar to my age find

:42:36.:42:41.

qualifications which they did not pick up on in school.

:42:41.:42:45.

When I graduated, I applied for PR jobs. The main problem was that most

:42:45.:42:51.

of them want a minimum of one or two years experience. If people have

:42:52.:42:55.

paid more than �9,000 for a degree, then they are told they need work

:42:55.:42:58.

experience, I don't think those stupid people could work for free

:42:58.:43:03.

for a year. I am on jobseeker's allowance, it is

:43:03.:43:07.

manageable and I have no doubt. I am putting the effort in while am

:43:07.:43:11.

young. I thought there was more of a future

:43:11.:43:16.

in my own business, so I launched a streetwear brand. We started off

:43:16.:43:21.

with caps, we now have T-shirts, jumpers, best, we are going into

:43:21.:43:28.

foodies and jackets. It has given me the opportunity to work for myself

:43:28.:43:32.

and I think it stands me in a better position than if I had done work

:43:32.:43:38.

experience. I don't think voluntary work

:43:38.:43:45.

exploits young people, it is your own choice. In the future, I would

:43:45.:43:51.

even like to be a teaching assistant or in the sports industry. I would

:43:51.:43:55.

rather be gaining skills and in the job centre.

:43:55.:43:59.

Do you think it is right for young people to get work experience when

:43:59.:44:09.
:44:09.:44:10.

they might not get a job at the end of it? What do you reckon? I believe

:44:10.:44:14.

work experience is crucial in getting your first job. I graduated

:44:14.:44:17.

in a recession, I moved away from home to go where the jobs were, I

:44:17.:44:22.

worked in a planning department for three months and then I got a job. I

:44:22.:44:24.

fundamentally believe that work experience is a good way to get your

:44:24.:44:30.

first job. You had ten seconds left, the first answer that has gone

:44:30.:44:34.

underestimation mark I think it is brilliant as long as it is open to

:44:34.:44:36.

everybody that is interested in the field and that people are paid

:44:36.:44:46.
:44:46.:44:57.

properly, so that people can afford in a project, I thought, this is

:44:57.:45:04.

great. I went with them and they said, yes, you will get extra

:45:04.:45:07.

qualifications, right into the field. But I was just stuck in the

:45:08.:45:11.

office doing paperwork, I wasn't given much opportunity and it was a

:45:11.:45:15.

summer wasted. Another experience, they gave me a lot of experience,

:45:15.:45:18.

they put me in the field and gave me qualifications and I really enjoyed

:45:18.:45:25.

it. Sometimes, two sided. You need that respect, and the company need

:45:25.:45:29.

to know how to deal with the students. And you have to put the

:45:29.:45:33.

effort in to get that experience. If those two are not in balance, it is

:45:33.:45:39.

not going to be good. Who else has had a positive experience? Quite a

:45:39.:45:44.

few of us run a radio station in Sunderland, and we would consider it

:45:44.:45:49.

to be a full-time job, even though we don't get paid. We would never be

:45:49.:45:55.

able to do it our own back. We get the opportunity to talk to Mo

:45:56.:46:03.

Farah, for example. In the media, which is hard to get into, we can go

:46:03.:46:08.

and say, look, we are on the Northeast's best radio station. But

:46:08.:46:11.

we've got those awards and we can prove that we have got those skills.

:46:12.:46:17.

And you have done that of your own back, which is impressive. I think

:46:17.:46:23.

that the pressure is on young people, I have done work experience

:46:23.:46:27.

for three and a half years that I have lived here. I'm slowly starting

:46:27.:46:32.

to get things, but the pressure is still huge, especially in the media.

:46:32.:46:37.

But across all platforms, I think that young people find it so hard to

:46:37.:46:41.

find themselves while doing what they love to do. There are an

:46:41.:46:45.

average of 45 applications per graduate vacancy. It is tough out

:46:45.:46:50.

there. Where is Adam? I haven't really got a bad word to say about

:46:50.:46:56.

work experience. I have had two spells myself. One was with the

:46:56.:47:01.

company I work with at the moment, a housing organisation based in the

:47:01.:47:07.

north-east. I'm currently an electrical apprentice. I work on

:47:07.:47:11.

site every day. I find, in work experience, you are treated with

:47:12.:47:19.

respect, like an employee. Really, I think it is about the company having

:47:19.:47:24.

a structure to the work experience programme. It's how you can develop

:47:24.:47:30.

as an employee after that. Who had a more negative experience? Anybody

:47:30.:47:40.
:47:40.:47:40.

here? Yes? I went to a law firm and I was made to sit in an office and

:47:40.:47:50.
:47:50.:47:51.

put folders in alphabetical order, from A two Z. I asked if I could be

:47:51.:47:57.

put into a more useful place. It's fair saying that you need work

:47:57.:48:03.

experience, but if you can't get it, what are you supposed to do there?

:48:03.:48:08.

It's about the quality of the work experience, isn't it? People are

:48:08.:48:11.

crying for work experience, not work experience where you are being

:48:11.:48:15.

treated like a so-called apprentice, putting the kettle on and making

:48:15.:48:19.

cups of tea, getting skills that are transferable. I think a big

:48:19.:48:23.

responsibility lies with employers. Employers can come forwards, provide

:48:23.:48:29.

work experience that helps people gain deployment in future. If you

:48:29.:48:33.

agree or disagree with anything being said, let us know through the

:48:33.:48:41.

social media channels. I am currently doing a work placement. I

:48:41.:48:45.

have gained so much out of the experience, it's an unbelievably

:48:45.:48:50.

positive experience. I've met fantastic people. I also know people

:48:50.:48:53.

that are in other roles, other positions, doing placements and

:48:53.:48:58.

stuff. They have had terrible experience. Their highlight of the

:48:58.:49:03.

day was putting the kettle on, and suing a couple of phone calls or

:49:03.:49:07.

bringing people through from the entrance hall into a meeting. I

:49:07.:49:11.

think it goes back to educating employers, and there are many

:49:11.:49:16.

benefits to the employers in involving young people in work

:49:16.:49:20.

experience. It is all about creating opportunities, but raising awareness

:49:20.:49:25.

of the benefits these can bring. you are in work experience, it is

:49:25.:49:29.

also about your own confidence. If you feel you are not gaining what

:49:29.:49:32.

you want from it, you have to have the confidence to go to your boss

:49:32.:49:37.

and say, look, I feel like I could do a little bit more. Young people,

:49:37.:49:40.

because you don't have that experience, you probably lacks

:49:40.:49:43.

confidence. Do be brave and confident and try to get the most

:49:44.:49:48.

that you can. To get work experience in today's climate is actually

:49:48.:49:54.

really difficult. It is not as easy as it seems. If you get it, make the

:49:54.:49:57.

most of it. I think confidence is a really big key in getting the most

:49:57.:50:02.

from what you want. Stephen? I think what we are seeing is that the

:50:02.:50:05.

experience of work experience is something that is very positive.

:50:05.:50:08.

When I started as a lawyer, that is what I was doing. The gentleman at

:50:08.:50:12.

the back, I want one of your caps, if you get an opportunity to give me

:50:12.:50:20.

one, I would like that. You are finding people are getting barred

:50:20.:50:24.

from getting work experience in two ways. Employers are saying that you

:50:24.:50:28.

need a degree just get work experience. Secondly, we are finding

:50:28.:50:32.

a closed shop. It's a dangerous thing to say on the BBC, but within

:50:32.:50:38.

the media, you'd have to be an Oxbridge candidate, it seems, in

:50:38.:50:40.

terms of senior things in the theatre, they tend to know each

:50:40.:50:46.

other. The same applies in law and banking. This is something that we

:50:46.:50:56.
:50:56.:50:59.

must challenge. Open up the market by giving people to get to work

:50:59.:51:04.

experience. The opportunities, in Moss side, to be a barrister, that

:51:04.:51:13.

becomes less available. Dragons' Den's James Caan is the social mode

:51:13.:51:18.

validity back two. On his first day, he said parents shouldn't help their

:51:18.:51:21.

children find work. On the second day, it was revealed his daughters

:51:21.:51:26.

work for him. What do we think about that? Sometimes it appears that

:51:26.:51:30.

people get a job because of who they know. It's all very well talking

:51:30.:51:33.

about the benefits of work experience, but there are people

:51:33.:51:36.

that are barred from that if it is not paid. I think a system where

:51:36.:51:39.

people who can afford to borrow money from their parents or live at

:51:39.:51:43.

home, they are able to do with experience, whereas people that have

:51:43.:51:46.

had to move out or do not have the support of their parents, they have

:51:46.:51:50.

to work a full-time job, they are not able to do that. Especially when

:51:50.:51:54.

the Government is cutting down benefits. It's difficult to do work

:51:54.:51:57.

experience on benefits, especially with cuts to housing benefits for

:51:57.:52:05.

people under 25. It will make it difficult for people to seek that.

:52:05.:52:08.

Waypoint online, Nicole says that work experience is crucial in

:52:08.:52:11.

fostering elitism. Those with contacts or money to take unpaid

:52:11.:52:19.

placements get them and the jobs. So, what do we do about that?

:52:19.:52:23.

don't know if we have the intention to do anything about it, that is the

:52:23.:52:27.

problem. We have a society in which the senior positions in banking,

:52:27.:52:30.

Government, finance, they are preserved for a particular class. It

:52:30.:52:34.

has been that way for a long time. Attending that has ever been an

:52:34.:52:39.

intention in the history of people in power to give up their power is a

:52:39.:52:42.

bit historically naive. I think we can force change as much as

:52:42.:52:45.

possible, grab as many opportunities as possible. But it is an uphill

:52:45.:52:53.

struggle. I disagree with your point saying it is all the latest. What

:52:53.:52:58.

percentage of senior Government is Oxbridge, which percentage of the

:52:58.:53:04.

BBC is Oxbridge? 83%, thank you. Don't interrupt me, I haven't

:53:04.:53:07.

finished my point. Don't you think it is ironic to be in a monarchy and

:53:07.:53:13.

be surprised by it being passed down from father to son, mother to son?

:53:13.:53:16.

Whilst that goes on, we have to be positive about what this country

:53:16.:53:21.

offers. In many industries, we are a meritocracy. You will get a job if

:53:21.:53:31.
:53:31.:53:33.

you can do the job. Reams and reams of scholarship to disagree. If you

:53:33.:53:38.

can do the job really well... have to ask you to discuss this

:53:39.:53:43.

later. We shouldn't be negative about getting a job. I am an

:53:43.:53:48.

immigrant and I managed to get a job. The audience at home and most

:53:48.:53:51.

people do think that work experience is a negative thing. Internships

:53:51.:53:59.

only seem to benefit employers. Scott says, work experience never

:53:59.:54:03.

truly represents the work environment unless you are planning

:54:03.:54:08.

to make posters and serve cups of tea. I wonder where he has worked.

:54:08.:54:12.

Why should graduates work for free? Short and sweet. Let's look at the

:54:12.:54:16.

Power Bar to see who has won the work experience debate. Overall

:54:17.:54:26.
:54:27.:54:30.

tonight, the winner is, no surprise, Akala. We are counting down. Say

:54:30.:54:36.

whatever you like, when you are ready? One thing I would like to see

:54:36.:54:39.

students do is campaign for a world studies curriculum that gives us

:54:39.:54:47.

accurate information. The many cultures we have, the different

:54:47.:54:50.

classes, races and ages. I think accurate education about these

:54:50.:54:53.

groups of people, where they come from, what their traditions are,

:54:53.:55:03.

what they have contributed to culture, I think that would do more

:55:03.:55:06.

than any politicians can do. Thanks to the audience, the panel and you

:55:06.:55:10.

at home for sending in your comments. The debate continues

:55:10.:55:16.

online. Join us in Magaluf. Finally, Free Speech on the Beach! We will

:55:16.:55:26.
:55:26.:55:34.

leave you with Akala and Find No black Caribbean

:55:34.:55:36.

# And half white Scottish whatever that means

:55:36.:55:39.

# See lately I feel confused with the boxes

:55:39.:55:41.

# Cause to me all they do is breed conflict

:55:41.:55:44.

# It's not that I've lost touch with the reality

:55:44.:55:48.

# Racism, sexism and nationality # Just to me it all seems like

:55:48.:55:50.

insanity # Why must I rob you of your

:55:50.:55:53.

humanity # To feel good about mine?

:55:53.:55:57.

# It's all about crime # Dehumanizing is how I justify it

:55:57.:56:00.

# So I must keep on lying about the history of Africa

:56:00.:56:04.

# So I can live with the massacres # And repeat my mantra of Muslim and

:56:05.:56:07.

terrorist # So I can sleep at night as bombs

:56:07.:56:10.

take flight # Eyes wide but I'm blind to the

:56:10.:56:12.

sight # Too busy chasing the perfect life

:56:13.:56:15.

# And the working class keep them uneducated

:56:15.:56:17.

# Truly educated men could never be racist

:56:17.:56:20.

# To educate is to draw out what is within

:56:20.:56:23.

# Are we not all not the same under the skin?

:56:23.:56:26.

# I got a heart like yours that pumps blood and oxygen

:56:26.:56:29.

# And insecurities are a whole lot of them I'm scared like you deep

:56:30.:56:32.

down # I really do care that world is not

:56:32.:56:35.

fair like you # But I don't even believe my own

:56:35.:56:39.

prayers like you # Chasing career going nowhere like

:56:39.:56:41.

# Lost in a fog of my own insecurities

:56:41.:56:43.

# I hold myself up as a image of purity

:56:44.:56:47.

# And I judge everybody else # By the color of their skin or the

:56:48.:56:51.

size of their wealth # But it's not good for my health

:56:51.:56:54.

# As the only one I ever really judge is myself

:56:54.:56:56.

# The oppressor must suffer like the oppressed

:56:56.:56:59.

# Though I pretend I'm in control of this mess

:56:59.:57:01.

# By inflating my ego, puffing my chest

:57:01.:57:04.

# I see my weakness, and need to show strength

:57:04.:57:07.

# Or what we think strong is because if we're honest?

:57:07.:57:09.

# True strength is the strength to be honest

:57:10.:57:14.

# And if I'm honest I am just tired # If I'm honest I am just tired

:57:14.:57:17.

# Tired of everyday filling up my car and knowing that

:57:17.:57:21.

With Free Speech's social media audience generating the show's biggest-ever online debates on race issues arising from the murder of Lee Rigby, Rick Edwards presents a special live edition of the debate show in front of an audience of 120 people aged 18-25.

Rick hears the opinions of the studio audience, with Tina Daheley (Radio 1 Newsbeat) relaying Twitter, Facebook and website messages from viewers at home.

Live from Sunderland, close to the scene of the English Defence League's first march since the death of Lee Rigby, a panel of politicians and local activists discuss racism and Islamophobia in Britain in the light of events in Woolwich.


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