Syria Crisis: Free Speech Special Free Speech


Syria Crisis: Free Speech Special

Rick Edwards chairs a debate on the situation in Syria. 150 people aged 16-25 argue for and against the parliamentary vote and what can be done for the civil war's victims.


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The politicians, the commentators, and the experts have all had their

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television audience has theirs. Welcome to the Syria crisis - a

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special edition of Free Speech live Welcome to the Syria crisis - a

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on BBC3. People are under pressure Should charity not start at home?

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I am Rick Edwards, and an audience of 160 15 to 30-years-old are here

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in Stoke Newington Town Hall. People from this area, plus young Syrians

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who have left their country for London will tell us what they think.

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A very good evening to you. I want Twitter, and the BBC so that you can

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hashtag why or no followed by the name of a panellist each time you

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agree or disagree with them. Here is our panel whose job, in one sentence

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am Damien Green, the member of parliament for Ashford in Kent,

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am Damien Green, the member of criminal justice. I am here to

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support free speech because that's one of the key aspects of freedom in

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I am Mehdi Hasan, the political director of the huffing tonne Post

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UK. I am worried we're about to embroil ourselves in another crazy

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Middle East war. My name is Shami Chakrabarti. I am the director of

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Liberty, the National Council for Civil Liberties, this country's

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domestic campaign for human rights for everybody. My name is Milo

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Yiannopoulos, an online technology magazine. I believe in order to

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maintain free speech, we should magazine. I believe in order to

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into Syria. I am malmalmal, a Labour MP. I believe that we don't hear the

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voices of young people enough in society and in our politics. I think

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elements of Al-Qaeda. Here, David Cameron's - President Obama said he

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wants to carry out limited and targeted bombing. Suddenly, there's

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One of the most abhorrent uses of chemical weapons in a century.

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This menace must be confronted. I strongly believe in the need for a

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chemical weapons. I happen to think are voting now on whether Britain

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military strike against Syria. The ayes to the right, 272; the noes to

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second-class silt 70le. Like we don't matter. The whole world has

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failed our nation. Kimberley has a question. Where is Kimberley? What

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would you like to ask? Do you think against military action? Let's start

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with you, please, Sima. What is against military action? Let's start

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answer to that? I happen to think that the vote was right last week. I

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don't think that we were ready to make a decision about going to war

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in that way in this country. To make a decision about going to war

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a decision like that made with MPs coming from wherever they were

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across the world, to make a decision without putting the evidence even in

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front of MPs, let alone in front of the public, to have evidence that

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was just dripping through in the the public, to have evidence that

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this importance absolutely deserves. of Iraq, not because Iraq and Syria

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this importance absolutely deserves. Milo, do you agree with that? No.

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this importance absolutely deserves. It's disturbing and irresponsible.

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We have to do something about Syria. This was a vote on principle, it

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wasn't the vote direct of which This was a vote on principle, it

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intervention. I don't believe a This was a vote on principle, it

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of Labour MPs when they talk on This was a vote on principle, it

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subject. A lot are in a difficult position created by their leader

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posturing which not only costs internationally. More importantly

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contributed to the humanitarian crisis in Syria, and we are standing

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by allowing the situation to get worse when we should be making a

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stand against somebody who is using chemical weapons on his own people,

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a red line that should never be crossed. By sitting by and allowing

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him to do that to his own people, disreputableness from Labour is

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really shocking to me. Two very differing points of view there.

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really shocking to me. Two very do you say to that, Sir? I would

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like to address the fact that no-one seems to say anything when Israel is

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assumed to be using white phosforuos on Palestinians. I think it's really

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important there's an intervention, but it is almost as if this country

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intervention. What I would like but it is almost as if this country

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know is there any financial gain for this country by going to war? If so,

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and the reasons for going to war are financial, then we should stay out

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of Syria. Damien, I guess you're best placed to answer that. I rather

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agree with what Milo said. The first thing is that this is not about

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money or making money, it is about a thing is that this is not about

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money or making money, it is about a government in Syria that bombs its

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own people with chemical weapons, which have been illegal for nearly

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its own people is therefore uniquely it. Parliament decided what it did,

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its own people is therefore uniquely in the diplomatic severe. Mostly,

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its own people is therefore uniquely other country some of the 2 million

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refugees that have been forced out of their own country and are now

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living in misery on the Syrian there is a lot that Britain can

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living in misery on the Syrian and is doing to try and relieve

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living in misery on the Syrian of the misery of this terrible

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situation. I disagree with your statement that it is not a financial

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gain to invade into Syria because if business. To even fund it, it is a

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business. If there isn't any sort of financial gain, why is it that we

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didn't intervene in previous wars? Why have we been kept in the dark

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about our gain what we would gain from going into Syria? Why are we

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Obviously, this is getting people going. Are people similarly engaged

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online? Yes, we have had a huge response. Thousands of messages

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coming in, so we've been asking response. Thousands of messages

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intervene in other countries in conflict? Kerry says, talking about

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military intervention, yes, it is, but we need a proper plan and the

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You're Syrian. How do you feel about this? I feel ashamed to be British

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at this time. Considering that we know over 100,000 people have been

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refugees, and we carry on, we talk about, "We're helping the refugees",

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do you know what? The situation about, "We're helping the refugees",

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only going to get worse. We've something, okay? The political talk

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that we've been doing for the past three years hasn't helped. Has it

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helped? Has it stopped the killing? No, it hasn't. The situation has

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only escalated. So what other option do we have at this point in time

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haven't got another option, the political solution is not working,

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actually got? Seema? I totally hear what you are saying because I can't

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agree with that right now because I don't think we've put enough effort

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into the peace process. There needs to be a road map to peace as well,

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and it is true that the efforts to be a road map to peace as well,

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far have not succeeded. It is also true that the opposition forces

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haven't come to the table, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an

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opportunity to look to a diplomatic answer to this. The only way the war

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is going to end in Syria is with can have a military action that

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makes us feel like we did something, but what are you going to do with

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you going to really say we're going and let Syria disintegrate. You

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you going to really say we're going to have something bigger than the

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military action. What we do know has changed is that undenial use of

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chemical weapons. There are still going to be a question that the

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with, but in no way way should read international community have to

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with, but in no way way should read parliament's vote last week as

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platitudes and contradictions from intervene in whichever way we can,

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platitudes and contradictions from my right. You say we should have

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investigated diplomatic solutions, yet you admit the rebels haven't

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come to the table. No, I disagree It's difficult to negotiate with one

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party. I disagree with you. If a mean that you don't keep going. Do

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you agree or do you disagree that the rebels have refused to even

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contemplate - and, in any case, the rebels have refused to even

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would you approach, by the way, because this is an organisation

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would you approach, by the way, a figurehead, this is a coalition.

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Who exactly are are you going to negotiate with? That's why you need

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a different strategy. That's why it is right that the Foreign Secretary

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is meeting the Syrian national coalition. Will you give Al-Qaeda a

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call - If you let me finish, what also happened today was Douglas

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Secretary, talking about having also happened today was Douglas

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Syrian contact group. Now, you need a way in which people are going

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Syrian contact group. Now, you need come to the table and people who are

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part of that dialogue are given come to the table and people who are

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part to be part of that dialogue. They speak for the majority in

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Syria. In a sense, we need to work out a way that is going to reduce

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forward, and it is going to lead to an end to the civil war. It's not

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convincing that a military strike without an overall plan is going to

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achieve that. You could make that worse. What would you do - Your

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strategy has made it worse, made it failed. Your strategy of waiting has

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meant that Assad has used chemical weapons against his own people.

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That's what your strategy of waiting has accomplished. Why did it happen

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14 times before last week? It should have been on the agenda of earlier

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than the way it is now. But I think what is really significant today is

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about Russia. Russia is saying on the eve of the G230, which I think

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is a -- G20, which has exposed Russia's position now, which was

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fundamental to solving this crisis, Assad. In terms of those going to

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put pressure on Assad, in terms Assad. In terms of those going to

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those bringing other forces to the responsibility seriously. If that

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those bringing other forces to the has been achieved as a result of

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think we have to keep the pressure last week, I think that is something

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think we have to keep the pressure countryside of Damascus, until

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women, children, old people. Can I ask please, when we stop Assad

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killing people in Syria? If you remember, from 1933 to 1945, and

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especially from 1941 to 1945, there were 6 million Jews died in Europe.

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So do we need this time now waiting for about 6 million people Syrian

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central question. What can we do to stop it happening? It is easy to

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emotional. I get emotional about it. I get really angry and horrified at

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the site of babies and children I get really angry and horrified at

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have been attacked by chemical weapons. Any reasonable humaning

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would. I think the one point would make any kind of military strike,

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and it is not an invasion but a military strike, is that that would

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particular, he would know that it is continuing to kill his own people,

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as he has done, has consequences for him and for his armed forces. One of

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the powerful arguments made in favour last week. Proposal that

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the powerful arguments made in defeated was precisely that, that if

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we don't do this, it is all words, there is no pressure on asaid, and

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all the evidence is that he will continue on killing if he can get

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another vote, Damien? We said there is no point having another vote

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another vote, Damien? We said there sensible way forward. You have a

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vote in parliament, so you have sensible way forward. You have a

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him, he will immediately start doing what he's told. I don't buy that

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him, he will immediately start doing logic. The more likely outcome is

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violence. If he fires chemical What would you do? Either have the

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invade, remove him from power - What would you do? Either have the

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something I support - or you say you call for a diplomatic route, call

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for a ceasefire to reduce civilian casualties. But this half-way house

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where you drop bombs over a weekend. Where's the evidence that he will

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suddenly cower and say, "I won't do anything again because you dropped a

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There's nothing I've heard in this debate so far this evening that

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makes me think anything speaking in bad faith or that anybody has got

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dubious motives. This is really hard. Yes, the evidence is emerging

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don't think the evidence base is what it was with Iraq, but there is

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the practicality, and you have to atrocities on one side. Yes, what

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Mehdi is alluding to might we make it worse, or might we not make it

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better? That's painful to admit sometimes when you won't necessarily

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be able to make things better and you're watching those pictures on

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the Newsnight after night. But, nonetheless, I think that if you

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look at public opinion, if you look at some of the polling, people are

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worried abouting stung again on at some of the polling, people are

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fronts, either that they'ring lied to - I think they're noting lied to

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this time which is my own view, to - I think they're noting lied to

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want to find themselves embroiled in a war, sending people like you lot

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maybe we don't make it better. That's were Seema's point about

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bringing new countries around the table, because part of making it

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better and not making it worse is about saying it's not just Britain

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and America this time, that there is going to be genuine multilateralism

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in the international community, on the world stage. Yes, in the

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meantime, you're talking, and people are dying, and that is so painful,

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similarities between Syria and Afghanistan because Russia was in

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and the Mujahadin was supported Afghanistan because Russia was in

:25:24.:25:44.

however, it's a murder. Who is giving - we must n forget who gave

:25:44.:25:49.

the chemical weapons to Syria. There is a report that says the UK allowed

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i. Americans are giving Egypt to the Egyptians to kill its own people. We

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say nothing. There's been countless polls in the media about whether the

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UK government should take military action against Syria, and the and

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the overwhelming majority of public opinion is no, we should not go

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there and take military action. Considering David Cameron likes

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there and take military action. brand the Syrian government as a

:26:22.:26:24.

government that goes against the will of its own people, if the UK

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does that, can we brand the UK regime as a government that goes

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against the will of the British That's why we have a parliament

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against the will of the British this country, we had a parliamentary

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vote, parliament said no, so, we're not taking military action. That's

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convinced that - I agree with you about the polling, and I think we

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can tell from even people in this room that people are very, very

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very cautious, and I share that caution. But I don't think that

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people are pacifists on principle: I don't think public opinion is such

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as to suggest that people would never go to war in Syria, or they

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would never go for humanitarian intervention. You're right that

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would never go for humanitarian well has been poise beyond, like the

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government has cried wolf too many times and when there is a clear

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government has cried wolf too many the - I think the public are ahead

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of the politicians here and asking questions. What do we day after

:27:23.:27:28.

of the politicians here and asking drop the bomb or after Al-Qaeda

:27:28.:27:36.

government in the Commons. I think that's unfair because what everyone

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in the Commons was given, I am that's unfair because what everyone

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intelligence reports because that's surprised there hasn't been more

:27:41.:27:58.

evidence is that that is the case, David Cameron made the point as

:27:58.:28:13.

evidence is that that is the case, honest debate you can have in good

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faith. The chemical weapons issue is honest debate you can have in good

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almost a red herring. It's killed 100,000 Syrians that have done.

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almost a red herring. It's killed we saying if he doesn't use chemical

:28:21.:28:26.

weapons it's fine? The only issue - chemical weapons. As you all know,

:28:26.:28:34.

instrument of war, they are an instrument of ey are an instrument

:28:34.:28:37.

of terror. . Does dropping bombs make the situation better or was --

:28:37.:28:44.

worse. Some of us thinks it makes the war run longer, it exacerbates

:28:44.:28:53.

chemical weapons or not. Chemical illegal. I wish the Tory government

:28:53.:28:58.

had done something in 1988 when Saddam was gassing his people when

:28:58.:28:59.

they turned a blind eye to that Saddam was gassing his people when

:28:59.:29:04.

You talk about red lines... . A question from this gentleman here?

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I've got a question for Seema and Mehdi. Chemical weapons have been

:29:08.:29:12.

illegal for 100 years, Obama drew a red line three years ago. When does

:29:13.:29:20.

the diplomacy stop? When do we accept it doesn't work. When does

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question. I asked you a question. Chemical weapons have been illegal

:29:31.:29:34.

for 100 years. I will answer his question, and I will answer your

:29:34.:29:37.

laugh as well. There hasn't been a Americans postponed it twice in

:29:37.:29:45.

laugh as well. There hasn't been a and in August. That's a fact. You

:29:45.:29:47.

can go and look that up. The fact about diplomacy is I am not saying

:29:47.:29:52.

solutions in Syria. My only point is do you do something to pour fuel on

:29:52.:29:56.

the fire or pour water on the fire. I would try and pour water on the

:29:56.:29:58.

fire. It may not put the fire out, I would try and pour water on the

:29:58.:30:02.

but it's better than pouring fuel on the fire. What are people at Somme

:30:02.:30:06.

Probably a good time to see what is happening with the power bar at

:30:06.:30:46.

Probably a good time to see what is Ore, you have a question? Has the UK

:30:46.:30:52.

gone down in the world'sestation after deciding not to intervene

:30:52.:30:58.

gone down in the world'sestation Syria. I hate that question. I don't

:30:58.:31:01.

hate you but I hate the question. I don't give a monkey's how you appear

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on the world stage. I really don't. You know that our international

:31:09.:31:13.

reputation affects our ability to negotiate for peace, it affects

:31:13.:31:15.

reputation affects our ability to sorts of things. Our standing in the

:31:15.:31:17.

world isn't just a question of who we can get to launch planes with us,

:31:17.:31:21.

but you know perfectly well that our standing in the world affects our

:31:21.:31:25.

ability to peacefully - Then I agree with the minister. If that is the

:31:25.:31:29.

case, I will agree with the minister that our standing as the oldest

:31:29.:31:33.

unbroken democracy on earth is not undermined by having a parliamentary

:31:34.:31:39.

respecting it, so there may be another vote in the future, the

:31:39.:31:41.

picture may change, but I am never going to say that our standing as a

:31:41.:31:46.

great democracy is affected by having democracy and respecting

:31:46.:31:51.

great democracy is affected by If winning a global league table on

:31:51.:31:55.

countries, then that's not a league table I want to be at the top of. I

:31:55.:32:01.

would rather have democracy via table I want to be at the top of. I

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vote in the Commons, ministers come here to talk to the public, for

:32:04.:32:08.

vote in the Commons, ministers come climate change. I would argue that

:32:09.:32:10.

our role in the world, our status has probably gone up after last

:32:10.:32:15.

our role in the world, our status because because forget what foreign

:32:15.:32:17.

governments think, what do peoples Afghanistan, Iraq, and turning a

:32:17.:32:26.

blind eye by the human rights abuses standing, not going to war with

:32:26.:32:35.

whatever American government decides to do at which weekend. I don't

:32:35.:32:37.

think that should be a factor. I have to agree with Shami on this

:32:38.:32:41.

one. I think it was so important to go through that protest last week,

:32:42.:32:45.

all the questions can remain about whether it was right to recall on

:32:45.:32:48.

Thursday, whether we could have even if is against the odds? Could

:32:48.:33:17.

difference than going to war right conversation. I don't think it's

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world. Maybe we are in a slightly different phase now where we are

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diversity, a different number of interventions. Let's have that

:33:29.:33:34.

conversation, continue to work, continue to look at the evidence,

:33:34.:33:38.

but let's focus on Syria and focus on the best way to end the civil

:33:38.:33:43.

war. Do you agree with that? I agree with a lot of that. It is too early

:33:43.:33:48.

to tell. I I agree what is more important is what is to happen to

:33:48.:33:54.

reputation. It will change. If we continue to play a constructive

:33:54.:33:59.

reputation. It will change. If we in this crisis and in other crises,

:33:59.:34:00.

and we learn from mistakes made in this crisis and in other crises,

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the past about the lies Blair about Iraq, and it does matter what our

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standing in the world is. If we Iraq, and it does matter what our

:34:09.:34:12.

a voice people listen to, because we are a democracy, because we have

:34:12.:34:15.

freedoms and free speech, then that's good, because the more the

:34:15.:34:20.

world is like that, then the happier Online comments, please? Lots of

:34:20.:34:25.

people online are talking about Online comments, please? Lots of

:34:25.:34:29.

Tonight, in Washington, the foreign military action against Syria. This

:34:30.:34:47.

is what President Obama said about I think America also recognises

:34:47.:34:57.

is what President Obama said about if the international community

:34:57.:35:06.

is what President Obama said about countries interact and how people

:35:06.:35:07.

talking of a possible war that can countries interact and how people

:35:07.:35:22.

talking of a possible war that can be happening. We're forgetting there

:35:22.:35:33.

talking of a possible war that can understand what evidence we need.

:35:33.:35:34.

Then you've got people dying in understand what evidence we need.

:35:34.:35:41.

the most brutal ways, and we can talk chemical weapons. I don't know

:35:41.:35:45.

why it's taken us two and a half years to realise that maybe the

:35:45.:35:48.

why it's taken us two and a half line should be drawn for chemical

:35:48.:35:50.

weapons when this is the 14th time that chemical weapons have been

:35:50.:35:54.

used, and you have to understand that there is really brutal methods

:35:54.:35:58.

of killing and slaughtering in government like stabbing, knives and

:35:58.:36:04.

people's necks and leaving them government like stabbing, knives and

:36:04.:36:08.

die, but suddenly chemicals weapons is a red line. I don't understand

:36:08.:36:12.

why it is a red line and other sort of killing is a red line. It's just,

:36:12.:36:18.

you know, like this red line that we have drawn is just, it has no basis,

:36:18.:36:32.

I want to re-ask the question that was asked to the Defence Minister in

:36:32.:36:37.

parliament after the - the day after the vote got through, asked by the

:36:37.:36:42.

Labour MP, and it was scoffed at: under what circumstances would

:36:42.:36:46.

Britain be prepared to relook at circumstances could it go back into

:36:46.:36:53.

parliament a second time? Philip Hammond replied if there was a

:36:53.:36:56.

significant change in the situation. Oddly enough, I think for all the

:36:56.:37:00.

arguments, actually there's quite a lot of consensus around that. That,

:37:00.:37:07.

whether it was new evidence of bad behaviour, or evidence of what has

:37:07.:37:11.

already gone, it would have to be a significant change rather than we

:37:11.:37:16.

returning and having the same debate again and again. I don't think that

:37:16.:37:21.

would help anyone. It could be new evidence on the practicalities and

:37:21.:37:23.

the potential effectiveness of action. It could be new evidence

:37:23.:37:31.

international conversations that are working or not working, so that

:37:31.:37:35.

there is more of a plan. It could be international support. There are all

:37:35.:37:40.

Forgive me, minister, it will be a international support. There are all

:37:40.:37:49.

Forgive me, minister, it will be a debate in parliament. I am going to

:37:49.:37:50.

have to go and find out what people debate in parliament. I am going to

:37:50.:37:54.

be an international decision through the UN. That's what the UN is for,

:37:54.:38:27.

Shami is catching up. Damien and Milo still struggling, I'm afraid.

:38:27.:38:29.

You can influence the power bar Milo still struggling, I'm afraid.

:38:29.:38:33.

Get on Twitter right now and tell our panellists what you think of

:38:33.:38:44.

It's been the first time that people have had their say on television

:38:44.:38:47.

about Syria. Thanks for all of your comments. Now we're going to change

:38:47.:38:51.

subject. For a big issue here in Hackney: stop and search, one of the

:38:51.:38:55.

most controversial ways that the police combat crime. Controversial

:38:55.:38:56.

as black people are seven times police combat crime. Controversial

:38:56.:39:00.

likely to be stopped and searched than white, and of million searches

:39:00.:39:05.

last year, only nine per cent led to running a public consultation this

:39:05.:39:12.

month. In Hackney, stop and search numbers are falling, but are still a

:39:12.:39:16.

cause for concern. Here is Kenny's My name is Kenny. I 19 years old. I

:39:16.:39:24.

was born in raised in Hackney. I am a civil servant working in financial

:39:24.:39:28.

services. Hackney is a nice place. You know, it's better. It's very

:39:28.:39:31.

vibrant. It obviously still has You know, it's better. It's very

:39:31.:39:35.

ups and downs. The relationship between police and youth is not

:39:35.:39:39.

ups and downs. The relationship I couldn't even tell you the amount

:39:40.:39:42.

of times I used to get stopped and searched. It brought me to distress.

:39:42.:39:47.

I don't agree toing stopped and searched numerous times because

:39:48.:39:51.

I don't agree toing stopped and the clothes you're wearing, in a

:39:51.:39:53.

certain Ayr, or maybe even the colour of skin. It wasn't fair.

:39:53.:39:56.

certain Ayr, or maybe even the didn't want people to feel the

:39:56.:40:08.

certain Ayr, or maybe even the affects the community. What would

:40:08.:40:14.

certain Ayr, or maybe even the I amming stopped in public, I was

:40:14.:40:20.

you're a criminal because police are outside the front of my house, it's

:40:21.:40:30.

like, "Are you lost, mate?" I was, look suspicious around this area - I

:40:30.:40:46.

is going. Stop and search should be for intelligence-led to get knives

:40:46.:40:48.

off the street. A lot more needs to be done. Before we take a question,

:40:48.:40:53.

I would like to bring this Matthew Horne who is the borough Commander

:40:53.:40:55.

for Hackney. What would you say Horne who is the borough Commander

:40:55.:41:00.

Kenny? I would say the great work that's been done has helped us bring

:41:00.:41:05.

stop and search and the amount of time bring it down. In Hackney,

:41:05.:41:08.

stop and search and the amount of is a very different picture as it is

:41:08.:41:10.

across London. We've halved the is a very different picture as it is

:41:10.:41:16.

of stop and search, doubled nearly the times it is a positive outcock -

:41:16.:41:20.

someone is arrested. We're not always going to get it right, but we

:41:20.:41:23.

get it right more times than we don't, so last year, we arrested

:41:23.:41:28.

5,000 more people the year before as a result of stop and search. It

:41:28.:41:32.

5,000 more people the year before as an incredibly useful power. It has

:41:32.:41:33.

to be used proportionately, and an incredibly useful power. It has

:41:33.:41:38.

it have to have to be used with respect and politeness? That's where

:41:38.:41:42.

I believe we've got there better. We've got a long way to go, but

:41:42.:41:47.

I believe we've got there better. goodness, have we improved. The

:41:47.:41:54.

I believe we've got there better. we've done with people like - the

:41:54.:41:54.

last thing I would say that the we've done with people like - the

:41:54.:41:58.

majority of people that engage in stop and search in every public

:41:58.:42:02.

meeting I go to, most people want the power to stay. We welcome the

:42:02.:42:04.

government's slayings. We think the power to stay. We welcome the

:42:04.:42:07.

is a great idea. Most people want it to stay but they do want us to get

:42:07.:42:11.

better at it and they want us to be respect, and they're absolutely

:42:11.:42:16.

right to respect that. Kenny, you've got a question? Is stop and search

:42:16.:42:24.

Damien, is stop and search helping helping or hurting the community?

:42:24.:42:28.

Damien, is stop and search helping or harming communities? If it is

:42:28.:42:31.

used badly, then it can harm, as the Commander just said. It is a useful

:42:32.:42:38.

then far more people are arrested, everyone you're a bit suspicious of,

:42:38.:42:48.

then far more people are arrested, you're seven times more likely if to

:42:48.:42:52.

43 different police forces and it be stopped and searched if you

:42:52.:43:10.

43 different police forces and it cent. Clearly, some police forces

:43:10.:43:15.

others, and the Met has indeed got a lot better, there is a hell of a lot

:43:15.:43:20.

holding this public consultation, and also a direct interest to a

:43:20.:43:24.

holding this public consultation, of people here, we extended it.

:43:24.:43:26.

holding this public consultation, was going to be six weeks. It's

:43:26.:43:30.

holding this public consultation, there's still time for people to

:43:30.:43:30.

take part in this consultation, there's still time for people to

:43:30.:43:35.

we want to keep the stop and search power, but absolutely, we want it to

:43:35.:43:39.

be used better than it has in the cohesion, community respect and

:43:39.:43:46.

be used better than it has in the on rather than in a way it's too

:43:46.:43:49.

often been used in the past. Shami, consultation? I certainly welcome

:43:49.:43:52.

the consultation, but I want to consultation? I certainly welcome

:43:52.:43:55.

clear, this is a lot easier than Syria. The law needs to be tightened

:43:55.:43:59.

up. I do not accept that the current useful. I think they are poisonous.

:43:59.:44:08.

communities. There are young men that that I men -- there are young

:44:09.:44:14.

men I meet in schools in inner London and inner cities whose first

:44:14.:44:17.

engagements with the police are through stop and search. It is a

:44:17.:44:22.

poisoning of people far more people than protecting. There are two kinds

:44:22.:44:28.

of stop and search that I will approve of.One is when you go to the

:44:28.:44:31.

airport or when you go to parliament and everybody is being stopped and

:44:31.:44:38.

high-security place that everybody understands they're not picking

:44:38.:44:40.

high-security place that everybody me because I am black, because I am

:44:40.:44:44.

campaigner, everybody is going proportionality of doing that for

:44:44.:44:50.

example at the airport or when you go to visit your MP. The second

:44:50.:44:54.

example at the airport or when you of stop and search I'll approve

:44:54.:44:58.

example at the airport or when you reasonable suspicion that you have

:44:58.:45:00.

committed an offence or you might be going to commit an offence, but

:45:00.:45:03.

that's not the powers that we are young black men who are having their

:45:03.:45:29.

criminal. You say that occasionally experience of authority and policing

:45:29.:45:37.

criminal. You say that occasionally people get charged. How many of

:45:37.:45:38.

those people get convicted? The people get charged. How many of

:45:38.:45:44.

needs to be - credit to the officer, and credit to the police who have

:45:44.:45:47.

understood in recent years that these powers are too broad, and

:45:47.:45:53.

understood in recent years that self-censored, started using the

:45:53.:45:53.

power less, but the power needs self-censored, started using the

:45:53.:45:59.

minister and on Seema, these are legislators to tighten up those

:45:59.:46:03.

reasonable suspicion and are not capable of being used in such an

:46:03.:46:12.

I would like to appoint the question believe if you're young, if you

:46:12.:46:17.

I would like to appoint the question black, if you wear a hoody, that you

:46:17.:46:19.

are a thief, and we have seen that continue to happen. We don't.You

:46:19.:46:24.

haven't made a change. I think you should maybe go to that referral and

:46:24.:46:29.

look at alternative methods because stop and search is degrading as

:46:29.:46:31.

look at alternative methods because humaning. To think that you look

:46:31.:46:34.

like a thief is a slap in the face. This government is endorsing that.

:46:34.:46:38.

They're not changing that. David Cameron doesn't care if war walking

:46:38.:46:42.

down the street, if you're wearing a hoody, black, or young. He doesn't

:46:42.:46:46.

care. What does he know? What does he know? Tell me. Can I come in

:46:46.:46:52.

care. What does he know? What does defend Damien on this. It is his

:46:52.:46:53.

government and a Conservative home secretary who have called for this

:46:53.:46:56.

review into this, and the record," but the thing is nothing is going to

:46:56.:47:07.

change. What was it their on said, "I asked the police what powers

:47:07.:47:11.

change. What was it their on said, want, and I give it to them." That

:47:11.:47:17.

alternatives. Which government has looked at alternatives? This one.

:47:17.:47:19.

You're not doing anything. Even looked at alternatives? This one.

:47:19.:47:23.

after this. We started in judgment. looked at alternatives? This one.

:47:23.:47:25.

It's going to end in three weeks' consultation, please. People wearing

:47:25.:47:32.

hoodies don't feel safe in your government. We are voting you in and

:47:32.:47:33.

to talk afterwards. This gentleman government. We are voting you in and

:47:33.:47:39.

here in a cap. I was going to say that I think that we are kind of all

:47:39.:47:43.

getting the whole thing totally misunderstood because at the end of

:47:43.:47:54.

stereotypes, and stereotypes are set by the media as what we call a moral

:47:54.:47:59.

panic. Now, part of me doesn't necessarily blame police for the

:47:59.:48:11.

panic. Now, part of me doesn't portrayed in the media, so I think

:48:11.:48:15.

what we need to do to improve stop and search is initially challenge

:48:15.:48:20.

the perception of young black men, especially, because - APPLAUSE

:48:20.:48:27.

you go to Google right now and w and write in "police stop and search",

:48:27.:48:32.

the first five pages are all young black men. I done it today just

:48:32.:48:38.

the first five pages are all young see. The first five pages on Google

:48:38.:48:40.

images. If you get a chance doing it, young black men getting stopped

:48:40.:48:48.

believes this stop and search is them. Until we can challenge the

:48:48.:48:54.

supported which by the media, where people come from, we're going to

:48:54.:48:57.

continue to be in this negative cycle where at the end of the day,

:48:57.:49:01.

the police are just a representation of the society. The society as a

:49:01.:49:03.

whole believes that young black of the society. The society as a

:49:03.:49:08.

in particular are the ones that of the society. The society as a

:49:08.:49:10.

causing problems, it's going to of the society. The society as a

:49:10.:49:14.

It's an issue of perception. Let's start with an unpopular point what

:49:14.:49:19.

some people call stereotypes, other people might call statistical fact.

:49:19.:49:23.

It is simply true - Please, hello. It's simply true that certain crimes

:49:23.:49:31.

are committed by certain profiles of people. What we need to fix is

:49:31.:49:38.

education, and we need to do some really systemic work to support

:49:38.:49:43.

communities in under-privileged areas in the country. We do need at

:49:43.:49:44.

the same time to find a balance areas in the country. We do need at

:49:44.:49:47.

protect the victims of crime as well. I am not supporting these

:49:47.:49:51.

indiscriminate stop and search things, but when we get caught up

:49:51.:49:53.

and carried away with this idea things, but when we get caught up

:49:53.:49:58.

scare stories, you know, that goes a little bit far, and it simply is

:49:58.:50:02.

true to say that certain crimes overwhelmingly committed by certain

:50:02.:50:30.

true to say that certain crimes love me, but I can change the law to

:50:30.:50:37.

are too broad. We should have stop and search powers triggered by

:50:37.:50:39.

reasonable suspicion that somebody has committed an offence or about to

:50:39.:50:42.

be committing an offence. We should not have the broad loose powers

:50:42.:50:47.

be committing an offence. We should stop anybody you like because they

:50:47.:50:49.

live on that council estate. That's not good enough for people in their

:50:49.:50:54.

country estates, and it's not good enough people for inner cities in my

:50:54.:51:18.

disagree get in touch with APPLAUSE I wouldn't have a problem with that

:51:19.:51:22.

for the same reason I don't have a problem with racial profiling at

:51:22.:51:26.

airports, I don't have a problem with certain kinds of stop and

:51:26.:51:29.

search, and I would be delight today see some of these guys pulled over

:51:29.:51:32.

and searched on their laptops as well. The reason I wanted to respond

:51:32.:51:34.

to this, the reason I am saying well. The reason I wanted to respond

:51:34.:51:40.

is a moral panic, is simple, young people are responsible for less

:51:40.:51:44.

is a moral panic, is simple, young 12 per cent of all violent crime in

:51:44.:51:47.

last year's police statistics. If they're responsible for less than 12

:51:47.:51:53.

cent people of their time talking believe the situation is worse than

:51:53.:52:01.

it actually is. I am looking forward to seeing Milo's popularity bar

:52:01.:52:05.

after that. How many times have to seeing Milo's popularity bar

:52:05.:52:10.

stopped, and the young man's point is that it is a vicious cycle. I

:52:10.:52:15.

travel a great deal, I've been stopped at airports recently. I

:52:15.:52:25.

and searched? Stopped at airports twice. Don't get into a game who has

:52:25.:52:30.

confidence, their relationship with been stopped more at airports out of

:52:30.:53:02.

confidence, their relationship with consultation as well. I have to

:53:02.:53:05.

confidence, their relationship with that I stood up and asked the home

:53:05.:53:08.

secretary on that day in July why we weren't having a longer consultation

:53:08.:53:09.

later the government changed its and she respond today me saying

:53:09.:53:16.

later the government changed its mind, quite rightly, because how can

:53:17.:53:19.

you have a consultation as important as this when everyone is going on

:53:19.:53:22.

summer holidays. We need to be doing saying what is it that's going to

:53:22.:53:25.

make this far more effective. What do the police need to do? You can't

:53:25.:53:29.

have a system like stop and search that you think is going to produce a

:53:29.:53:37.

searches last year, 45 45,000 areas, not even - 45 45,000 arrests. The

:53:37.:53:44.

statistics are incredible. You're a legislator. Tighten up the law. I am

:53:44.:53:46.

going to finish this point. How legislator. Tighten up the law. I am

:53:46.:53:52.

institutionalised racism? I am going All of that obviously needs looking

:53:52.:53:58.

at, but there is a major issue about the diversity of the police force as

:53:58.:54:01.

well. The police force that is are not connected to communities, that

:54:01.:54:05.

do not understand communities. If you have national police force that

:54:05.:54:10.

is five per cent ethnic minority, in London ten per cent ethnic minority,

:54:10.:54:12.

it's not surprising that you don't communities that we need, and that

:54:12.:54:17.

is the big shift that we also need to make. I want to talk to Aaron

:54:17.:54:21.

quickly. You've developed an app that has a practical application to

:54:21.:54:25.

do with stop and search. What is it? It let's the public know know what

:54:25.:54:35.

lot of your rights when you go on the web, it is really long and it is

:54:35.:54:39.

not clear and straight to the point, so we've come up with the top ten

:54:39.:54:43.

things the public want to know about their stop and search rights that

:54:43.:54:47.

situation when they are getting stopped and searched to empower

:54:47.:54:51.

situation when they are getting in that situation to move in the

:54:51.:54:52.

addressing the issue. Then the in that situation to move in the

:54:52.:54:58.

second part of the app is to upload in that situation to move in the

:54:58.:55:00.

geolocates it to the exact point basically allows you to feed back

:55:00.:55:16.

geolocates it to the exact point where you were stopped and searched.

:55:16.:55:17.

We've got to go to Tina and wrap where you were stopped and searched.

:55:17.:55:37.

We've got to go to Tina and wrap On the final 30 seconds - the most

:55:37.:55:39.

support it to Mehdi. I would say to you all that we are in a dangerous

:55:39.:55:42.

place right now. We may or may not go to war in Syria, come back to the

:55:42.:55:44.

main issue that we talked about go to war in Syria, come back to the

:55:44.:55:49.

this programme, that is don't accept what politicians or journalists

:55:49.:55:54.

this programme, that is don't accept you saying there is nothing else we

:55:54.:55:56.

can do but more war, more war. alternative to war, especially in

:55:56.:56:00.

the current climate where we have such a complicated situation. Don't

:56:00.:56:08.

please. Thank you very much. Thanks to our audience, panel, and you

:56:08.:56:13.

please. Thank you very much. Thanks sending the your comments. Join

:56:13.:56:17.

please. Thank you very much. Thanks next time live on October nine,

:56:17.:56:19.

please. Thank you very much. Thanks Cambridge. An exclusive free speech

:56:19.:56:22.

interview with a young woman in Damascus who doesn't want to be

:56:22.:56:25.

identified but she wants us to know what life is like there for young

:56:25.:56:29.

people. Life is pretty difficult. If we're not getting shelled ourselves,

:56:29.:56:36.

that means we can't sleep because of the sound of shelling of other

:56:36.:56:40.

areas. Children are afraid because they feel it might be their turn to

:56:40.:56:44.

get killed. They don't feel safe, they lost members of their families.

:56:44.:56:46.

It's not life. Damascus centre, they lost members of their families.

:56:46.:56:51.

have to pass by many checkpoints. You might get arrested like that,

:56:51.:56:54.

even if you're not an activist, You might get arrested like that,

:56:54.:56:59.

even if you don't participate in the I need to stay here, I have to help

:56:59.:57:06.

people here and to help my country.

:57:06.:57:06.

With more reports of children being targeted by alleged chemical weapons in Syria and David Cameron losing the crucial parliamentary vote on military action, Rick Edwards chairs a live debate on the Syrian crisis from the London borough of Hackney. 150 people aged 16-25 argue for and against the vote and what can be done now for innocent victims of the civil war. Tina Daheley runs online questions and debates all day leading up to transmission.


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