27/11/2015 Politics Europe

Now on BBC News, it's time for Politics Europe.

Hello and welcome to Politics Europe. Coming up on today's

After a week of high terrorist tension, from fears of a Paris-style

attack, Brussels returns to something alittle more like

normality but with one of the Paris terrorists still at large, the

security forces cannot afford to re-Alexander. EU commission

President, Jean-Claude Juncker, warns the migrant crisis and

widespread security dangers, mean the EU's open borders and single

currency are under threat. Britain's Foreign Secretary warns

that the country could leave the EU if it cannot reach an agreement on

reducing welfare for migrants. But what are the chances of that? And we

report from Italy, where private firms have taken on the task of

preserving the country's most valuable and historic public

monuments. All that to come. Joining me as we canter around the latest

news from Brussels, Strasbourg and the EU are Conservative MEP, Anthea

McIntyre and the Ukip MEP, Jonathan Arnold. Welcome to both of you.

First today, Belgium authorities have reduced the threat level in

Brussels from its highest level of 4 but only to 3. The city was locked

down for nearly a week with schools, universities and Metro system

closed, soldiers deployed on the streets. It was after fears of a

Paris-style attack. Some of the Paris suspects lived in Brussels, at

least one, Salah Abdeslam is still at large. Let's talk to our

correspondent, Damian Grammaticus, who is in Brussels.

Damian, the lockdown may be over, but there must still be very high

security alerts? Yes, there is. The lowering of the threat level,

Andrew, from 4 to 3, only means that the authorities believe that an

imminent threat now doesn't exist but there is still a very, very

serious risk of a possible attack, is what they say. So, what the

Justice Minister has been explaining, is it means they no

longer have credible intelligence of something being planned immediately,

however, still across the city, we have armed troops. We have increased

police presence. As of Friday morning, all of the Metro was back

up and running. All of the schools were back on, but those security

measures will stay in place, we are told and will only be scaled back

gradually in the coming days. We know what what the Paris attacks

have done to France and French politics and the French Government

reaction. What has it done to Belgium? Well, I think the first

thing it has done, is to mobilise, if you like, the many different

parts of the Belgium Government system. This is a very fragmented

system here. You have federal government, regional governments,

governments for the different language-speaking parts of Belgium.

In Brussels itself. They overlap in many, many ways. What it has forced,

I think immediately, is a focus on the coordination between the

different levels. One of the criticisms has been that Belgium,

because of that fragmented system, hasn't been able to respond as

effectively maybe as it could have done, to some of the growing threat.

So that's one thing. An immediate focus, too, on the nature and the

funding of the security structure in Belgium.

seemed to have come from Belgium, Also, of course, very serious

seemed to have come from Belgium, from Brussels, from a particular

area, molen Beck, how they might have been radicalised and why

Belgium, Brussels? Very interesting. Debates

over security have dominated discussions in Strasbourg this week,

where the European Parliament has been meeting for its month

polymreeny session. On Wednesday, EU commission President, Jean-Claude

Juncker, warned the heightened security atmosphere, as well as the

ongoing migration crisis were threatening the very foundations of

the EU TRANSLATION: The shengen system

is partly comatose. Those who believe in Europe, its values and

principles and freedoms must try and they will do so, to breathe new life

into the spirit behind shengen. If the spirit of shengen leaves us

forever and leaves our hearts, we will lose more than the shengen

agreement. The single currency doesn't make sense if shengen fails.

How seriously would you say shengen is now under threat? I think we have

to recognise that Shengen already made provisions for closing borders

in times of crisis. So, to an extent, it has already been

anticipated. I think the more important thing is ensuring that the

external borders are career. That is is really what Shengen relies on.

The effort should be on strengthening external borders. But

the Dutch Prime Minister has been telling us that measures agreed by

the EU to control the external borders of the EU have not been

implemented by the southern European countries, where most of the

migrants are coming in. And that's hugely worrying. Obviously the UK is

outside of Shengen, so we control our borders, which is very

important. I think, nevertheless, we benefit from strengthened borders on

the external front years of Europe. Do you buy this link that

Jean-Claude Juncker is raising between if Shengen goes, the euro

goes? No, absolutely not. The idea that when you have to say - show

your passport at a border - that that impacts upon the whole economy

of the euro, it seems to me that it is the same scaring mongering that

junk tries when he tries to tell Britain we shouldn't be leaving the

European Union. What do you think of that? I think that the eurozone

requires probably closer union, which is precisely why we don't want

to be part of it. That's not going to happen this side of the German or

French elections in 2017. Indeed. I think it is very much in our

interests that the eurozone survives but I think it is equally important

that we stay out of it. Because we want to have proper political

control and not have, as in the words of the Prime Minister - we

don't want-ever-closer union. That's why it is important to maintain the

difference between the eurozone countries and non-eurozone and make

sure we have fair position outside of the euro. You must take some

comfort from the rather dramatic warnings of the European

establishment about the future of Europe. We have heard from

Jean-Claude Juncker saying that not just Shengen but the euro could now

be under threat. The Dutch Prime Minister has been comparing the

currencies of Europe to the last days of the Roman Empire, if they

don't get things together. Are you beginning to feel you are pushing at

an open door here? Well, certainly there are reasons for supposing that

Britain would be a lot better outside the European Union and

reasons for supposing the European Union is in a certain amount of

trouble. I suspect what Juncker is trying to do, if he is trying to

Foster a certain unionite between the EU countries. He scare amongers

about the euro because he thinks some countries or in favour the euro

if they think about bringing back passport controls somehow leads to

the failure of euro. I think he is overplaying it rather than

downplaying it to those countries and at the same time saying to

Britain something very different. You know, you mention the words

"ever-closer union", the problem is, those words don't really have any

legal force in the treaties. Yes, of course, Cameron can go away and

negotiate a change in those words but it won't make the slightest bit

of difference to the actual situation, within the European

Union. What we are getting from Cameron is window dressing, rather

than actual change. If Cameron wanted to change the EU, he would

ask for real changes. Which he is. We will come on to the problem. But

isn't the problem for those who want it stay in, that this referendum

could well take place at a time when Europe is seen to be in something of

a crisis and even reeding Europeans, who believe in the European project,

from the President of the Commission to the President of the Council to

the Prime Minister of Holland r beginning to fear for its future? I

think it highlights the need for reform, and we have seen this week

that ministers from - 27 different ministers from 19 different

countries are saying - we have to have reform and reduce the

administrative burden. I have never heard that before. They want targets

for burden reduction. It is not just us. So often we are saying it is

just the UK. Do you think it'll happen in time for the referendum? I

believe it will. You do? I do. I think it is key for the future and

when you say, as you did, that there is debate among European countries,

there is concern, it is the reform of Europe that's so vital to keeping

it going. We need to move on. The UK Government has warned uncontrolled

migration could force Britain to leave the EU, the warning came as

new figures showed net inward migration to the EU had reached an

all-time high with net migration from the rest of Europe also hitting

a new record. Kroling immigration is the really substantive issue at the

heart of Britain's renegotiation of its membership of the EU. --

controlling immigration. But can the UK win substantial reforms from the

EU, particularly in this area? Let's talk to John SpringFord from the

Centre of European Reform. Let's get an overview. Overall how would you

say negotiations are going? They have only just started in earnest.

It is difficult to say. A lot of the other Member States have been

complaining that David Cameron has not been really very specific in

many of his areas and, so, we are now seeing the process where some

specifics are being laid down in negotiations in Brussels. Is it not

inconceivable that whatever happens, whatever deal is eventually agreed,

that cannot be be done and dusted by the December summit? Do you agree? I

think that's highly unlikely. Part of the reason is we are still quite

far apart on some issues, particularly benefits from - in-work

benefits for migrants. Let's come on to that. I understand what Mr

Cameron wants is people who come from the rest of the E to you. Work

in the UK, that for the first four years they would not qualify for tax

credits and things, or other welfare payments and so on. It's the one

kind of substantive change that he is asking for, that you could almost

measure. I understand there is a lot of resistance to this, particularly

from Eastern Europe? There is certainly a lot of resistance from

yeern European but also other countries as well. It is not just

Poland that are unhappy about this. Angela Merkel has said she does not

want the principle of non-discrimination, which underpins

the single market, that Member States cannot discriminate against

workers or companies from other Member States. She doesn't want that

principle to be weakened. And the other Member States that are

opposing this move, see Cameron's proposal as owe sensingly

discriminatory. Anthea McIntyre was telling us, just a few minutes ago,

that there is now a huge well-spring for desire and on all sorts of

fronts, that will happen in time for the British referendum. Do you see

that? I think it is unlikely we'll see major reform, particularly of

the eurozone until after the French and Holland general elections in

2017. The general sense is they want to take the British issues separate

and so there is a hope that it is going to be possible to try to get

this renegotiation done, reasonably early and easternly before the

election period, in order then to move on to some of the eurozone

issues which are going to be even harder than Cameron's negotiation.

Thank you for joining us. When would you like the referendum?

Would you like the referendum sooner rather than later? In other words in

2016, rather than 2017? I'm happy we have it before the end of 2017,

provided we... You have to have it before then Absolutely. I want it

when we have done some negotiating. So, people who say we are in the

asking for anything, obviously we are, because there is a lot of

negotiating to go on. When we have concluded it, that's the time to

have the referendum. So, do you accept that it is unlikely that this

will be wound up in the December summit? That it is going to go into

2016? I think it is quite likely. But, you never know. Where there is

a will, there is a way, and I think there is a great desire to satisfy

some of Britain's demands as soon as possible. As I say, if you've got

20-odd Member States saying - we've got to reduce the burden of red

tape. It is a very good start. But my understanding is that part of the

British problem is getting the European's attention. Because they

have so many other issues that they regard as being more important.

Security, clearly out of Paris is a major one, and after what has been

happening in Brussels as well and unresolved migration crisis as well.

850,000 migrants have come into the European Union in the course of this

year, so far. And so getting the British renegotiation demands up the

agenda, when so much else is at stake, is difficult? Absolutely.

This n itself to me is the Government's fault. We have had 40

years of attempted reform. European Union which hasn't happened from

successive Conservative and Labour Governments. David Cameron came to

power on a promise he would renegotiate the terms of entry into

the European Union. That was five-and-a-half years ago. He could

have done that at a much I quoo etter time, getting on with T but

what happens is he waits around, five-and-a-half years, presents his

letter of demands that doesn't ask for anything that the British people

actually want. For UK law to be supreme over EU law. For actual

controls over the free movement of workers, so we have a right to

decide who does and doesn't come into our country. Whether it is

something on the finances. There is nothing of any real substance. The

benefits issue is tinkering around the edges? It isn't. It is a

question of fairness. I think that's the most important thing for the

British people. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that people should

come and work and contribute to the economy through their taxing before

they benefit. That may be a fair principle but do you seriously think

that would do much for EU migration, except perhaps at the edges? What is

the evidence for that? Don't forget we actually welcome a certain amount

of EU migration. If you look at the people that run our hospitals. If

you look at the people that pick our fruit. I understand all that, but my

question to you is - even if Mr Cameron gets what he is asking for,

will it really reduce EU migration numbers by very much? I think it

will certainly reduce the ones that see the advantages of Britain and

think that if they come they will be looked after. We want the ones that

will contribute. I understand that but surely the numbers won't go down

because the reasons, putting the national

minimum wage up to ?9. That's two or three times what the minimum wage

could be or what you could hope to nern Romania and Bulgaria, even if

you take away the welfare payments. Naturally they will come to a place

where they can get a job and a decent minimum wage, aren't they?

Don't forget. We are victims of our own success. We have seen growth. We

have seen increasing wages. We have seen unemployment going down. We

have more people employed in this country than ever. Sure. So

obviously we are attractive. And it is fine to be attractive to people

who want to come and have a job. We have 7 under,000 job vacancies. So

you are arguing the case for open borders and not changing anything.

I'm saying I'm in favour of freedom of movement to come and work. What

I'm in the in favour of is people being able to come simply to claim

benefit. What do you say? But surely you must understand this is what is

leading to wage compression. In important communities in the UK,

where you have a massive oversupply of unskilled labour, people coming

into the UK, happy to do jobs on minimum wage. And driving wages

downed. People previously being able to command a wage of ?10 to ?15 are

struggling to get minimum wage. What is the economic evidence for that?

The economic evidence intuitively makes sense, if you increase the

supply of labour, wages at the other end will fau. It is hard to get

economic evidence of that. It is about 3%. Real wages are rise being

3%. I would say two things - come to my constituency in the north-east of

England and talk to people who are saying exactly that is the problem.

Secondly, my understanding is that for every 1% increase in population,

with migration. You are talking about something in the region of o

0.5% wage drop for the poorest 5% in society and that's something which

is... How big has immigration been into the north-east? It is rising.

We have... How big has it been? We have the census figures from 2011

which show that at that Tim it was the lowest in the country but also,

when you look later on and you look from than point, it seems we are

having the biggest increase, compared with the number of migrants

here already. But we also have the highest unemployment. So, a small

increase in migration, in the north-east, has a disproportionate

impact. Slightly different from the rest of the country in terms of...

Thank you. What else has been happening in European politics in

the last few days? Here's The Week in 60 seconds: On Monday David

Cameron was in Paris with President Hollande visiting the Bataclan

theatre where the worst of the terror attacks took place. The band

playing at the time have vowed to return to the venue. Oi don't think

any of us could have handled it without support of the kids that

were there. Election o pour few gees elections should have been held over

a month ago. The Prime Minister was named on Tuesday. Ending weeks of

political stalemate. There are to be fresh talks on the possibility of

Turkey joining the EU. It is said Turkey has agreed to enter a new

chapter. And migrants are still arriving on

the Greek island of Lesbos, undeterred by the worsening weather.

2,000 people arrived on dinghies on Monday.

Is there much of an appetite for Turkey to have a much-closer

relationship with the EU? I can't see it at the moment. I don't think

there is any appetite for enlargement. Obviously they are part

of Nato. I think it is reasonable to maintain relations, encourage them

in the right direction but I honestly can't see them scombroining

Europe. What is your view? I can't see it happening at the moment. It

does say something about Cameron's political judgment that him, and the

Conservative Party, have always been in favour of Turkey joining and the

free movement of workers that would inevitably entail, even if there

were restrictions. Are you in favour, is it party politics? Not as

far as I know. The idea that they are in Nato and should be encouraged

along the path towards us, rather than pushing them away, I think is

very important but there is no promise. All right.

Now, our Adam has been off again on his travels. Today he is meeting the

neighbours in Italy and finding out how the Government in Rome is

financing the renovation of some of the city's most famous buildings.

You come all the way to Italy and this happens. Oh, no. They are

closed for refurbishment. Cash-strapped Rome is restoring

loads of its monuments and getting Italian luxury brands to pay for T

the Spanish Stepped, saved by Bulgari. The Trevi Fountain, tarted

up by Fend I shall and I'm scaling the granddaddy of them all, the

Coliseum. It is getting a makeover paid by the shoe company, Todss.

These are being filled in here, with this special concrete. It is about

making it look nicer and stopping it falling down. It is low-tech for a

reason. It is a very soft way of cleaning, in order to conserve

so-called patina, something which something brought from the years

past and the cleaning is only to remove the elements which are

dangerous for the conservation of the material. You don't want it to

look too new No, absolutely not. Next they'll refurbish the Arena and

build a new visitors' centre for the 6 million tourists who come here

every year. . This is one repair job. What about the much bigger with

one being done on the entire eye fallian state and the economy by the

Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi. The former Mayor of Florence is Italy's

youngest-ever PM. He has voe duesed the so-called jobs act which makes

it easier for firms to hire young workers and rewritten the

constitution to make it easier for a party to get a majority in

Parliamenter Parliament. His argument is that it'll bring

much-needed stability to politics here 'S gay who has an extremely

strong, almoster if physical personality. This is basically

Italy's female Andrew kneel. -- Andrew Neil. The Italians feel left

out. They feel they have come back on themselves. They feel they are

not the last ones of Europe. As far as government goes, I have many

reservations. What about Italy's other political big beasts? The

comedian, Beppe Grillo? His left-wing grassroots movement, Five

Tar or Cinque Stelle is now the opposition. Luigi Di Maio is set to

take over. We said we wouldn't let anyone who

has a criminal record to stand for our party and at all levels, local,

national, we have taken pay cuts so the money can be used to give loans

to old businesses. We don't want to change because we don't want to be

an old-fashioned Politkovskayaical force. Italy is not on the verge of

crumbling as it appeared on the eurozone crisis. But economic growth

is slow and Government death is, well, colossal. Can a new generation

of politicses do more than just patch the country up?

Well, the Italian Government has no money, the luxury goods company have

lots. I guess that's the only way to go if they want to save their

historic monuments? Italy is a wonderful country for holiday, but

over-taxed, over-regulated. I wouldn't want to try to run a

business. Do you think we should get luxury companies to look after our

historic monuments. We have to look at what lane's disastrous PFI did to

the NHS. I'm not sure it is a FPI initiative. Yes but it shows, that

companies getting too close can be a problem. Would you like to see how

they are renovating these monuments now? It looks like a good job It

does. It looks wonderful that they are being able to do something. I

don't hold out much hope for Grillo. That's it from Politics Europe.

Thanks to our ME. Ps. -- MEPs, see you soon.

A stormy start to the northern half of the